A lot of my friends in Oscoda lost their jobs due to this, bending fuel lines for cars was cheaper to do in Mexico than in a non-Union plant closer to the auto plants in Michigan. It was cheaper for the shipping of the plastic from Japan to Mexico, pay rates are much less there, and the employees are less apt to try to go Union. The town of Oscoda looses several millions of dollars in local trade.
Not ITT Fluid Handling Systems can double their $1 billion dollar profit, per year.
On the flip side, for the mexicans it is a great deal, they hae jobs paying them, the Mexican economy improves. This is all good for them.
It may help Americans in the south-western US by not having as many illegal immigrant workers cross over.
The idea of free trade is good, but the fact that several companies have pulled out of areas of the US that they virually supported is not. Next thing you know we Americans in the border areas will be crossing over to Canada and Mexico for jobs......
------------------ "One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant Star Trek: Legacy Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Free trade works only if all sides have the same economic laws. The main problem here is that Mexico has a lower minimum wage than we do (assuming that they have one at all). If we had a truely free economy, our workers could compete for the jobs that Mexicans are now getting. As it is, they can't.
------------------ "Omega is right." -Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
"If we had a truely free economy, our workers could compete for the jobs that Mexicans are now getting. As it is, they can't."
Never mind THAT shit...why would they WANT to?? Have you SEEN some of those shitass Mexican jobs? No thank you...I'm not THAT hungry.
------------------ "I'm beginning to think that there'll be NO forced mating at ALL!" --Professor Hubert T. Farnsworth
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Bending fuel lines isn't that bad, some are God awful, but for the most part it was easy, just mind numbing....
------------------ "One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant Star Trek: Legacy Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
You wouldn't say that if it was the only work you could get, Shik.
------------------ "Omega is right." -Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
That's why the Mexicans are perfect for those jobs. They have no minds & they don't care about things like food. They sleep like 12 people to a bed so they can blow their cash on important things--like truly bitchin' chrome magwheels for their lowered 83 Mazda. (with obligatory giant "MEXICO" sticker in the front &/or rear windshield, "Te Amo Jesus" bumperstickers, & CD hanging from the rear-view mirror)
------------------ "I'm beginning to think that there'll be NO forced mating at ALL!" --Professor Hubert T. Farnsworth
Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
Omega you're missing his point. If you have to compete for jobs that means taking a lower wage. Bugger me if I am going to compete for my job. I wouldn't even get out of bed for what they are paid. Especially if its just going to increase the net asset value of supercorp inc. Bugger that. You force them to pay you a liveable wage, or they can go to hell. (IE, you stop them producing anything till you are treated right).
Called a UNION.
------------------ Re: Russia in WWII
"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK." - DT.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I think it was the threat of the UAW that made ITT move it's plants to Mexico. I was one the the pre-Union Reps for my plant. We weren't pushing for a huge pay raise, we wanted a more structured work place.
The safety rules gave way to production. You should have seen how made I made them when they went to make my work place even more unsafe and I told them that they couldn't. We had to call for a general walk out becuase the plant was too damned hot in 1997, hot summer then. The plant was in excess of 120 F (48.9 C). We did get extended breaks, more water fountains, and popcicles after that. They also removed the thermometers so we couldn't tell the temp. anymore. They hated me for my knowledge of OSHA rules and how they applied to our workplace. I don't think they have to worry to much about that, safety, in Mexico.
We also wanted senoirity to mean something, to remove the favratisim from the plant. Which we made happen in a few cases, start at the top of the list and work there way down, giving them a chance to try the new job or turn it down. That was how I ended up being a scheduler for production.
But, yes, a pay raise was also being called for. We got the numbers on pay and expenses and plant income on parts. We figured out what a small pay raise would cost, keeping in mind the stockholders, since our meager 401k did have 1 share per year kicked to us, and found that over 5 years we could get 25 cents an hour per year increase, plus our 5 to 25 cents cost of living increase, without hurting ITT or the stock holders much. Less than 1%....
This is way companies are moving to Mexico, those big wigs that want to have the American Dream don't want their fellow Americans to have it.
------------------ "One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant Star Trek: Legacy Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
Posted by Orion Syndicate (Member # 25) on :
It's never really been about the individual worker though has it, but about the shareholders and the nation. When the US was doing well, everyone wanted to invest there, but now with SE Asia and Europe being increasingly attractive investment locations, the US government has to act, the summit of the americas being an example of the government now acting. Without this, you'll fall further behind the rest of the world, especially Europe and South East Asia who are changing and adapting to the new global climate.
The global economic climate isn't champagne and strawberries any more and if you want to compete, you're going to have to accept this and work to attract inward investment rather than complaining about multinationals relocating elsewhere. This could mean poorer wages, it could mean higher taxes, it could mean as I was reading last week the government deliberately using hedge funds to attack South East Asia and then insisting on a more open economy before any aid is given. The government has to act and you as citizens have to accept that it is a necessary evil, without which you'll lose ground to other nations and trading blocs.
------------------ The Worlds Ten Greatest 'Fucks' #9
Who let that fucking woman drive? - Captain of Space Shuttle
[This message has been edited by Orion Syndicate (edited April 23, 2001).]
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
Free trade works only if all sides have the same economic laws. The main problem here is that Mexico has a lower minimum wage than we do (assuming that they have one at all). If we had a truely free economy, our workers could compete for the jobs that Mexicans are now getting. As it is, they can't.
Ahem...... I have to agree with Omega on this one. The nail is especially hit on the head with the "same economic laws" thing.
Called a UNION.
Ahem..... isn't it the unneccessarily high demands of these unions (double digit raises, extremely expensive benefits) that are causing these jobs to drift elsewhere? Companies have to pay a liveable wage. Fine, unions can fight for that. Companies have to provide workable conditions. Fine, unions can fight for that. A company is making lots and lots of cash, unions want to share a piece of the dough (nice car for every worker, college scholarship for every worker's kids, etc. etc). But if a company is having trouble and is trying to secure revenue, it causes a problem the unions become unforgiving and still demand those very high perks that could eventually crash a company.
The point is that if you try to bite the hand that feeds you, then you've got bad things coming for ya.
------------------ "In a completely unrelated news story, I have a date tomorrow night." - Omega, in trying to explain why pigs are now flying, why Microsoft products are now working perfectly, hell freezing over, and George W Bush giving a flawless speech. 04/06/01, 12:17AM
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
Shik Said: That's why the Mexicans are perfect for those jobs. They have no minds & they don't care about things like food. They sleep like 12 people to a bed so they can blow their cash on important things--like truly bitchin' chrome magwheels for their lowered 83 Mazda. (with obligatory giant "MEXICO" sticker in the front &/or rear windshield, "Te Amo Jesus" bumperstickers, & CD hanging from the rear-view mirror)
*very annoyed and dismayed*
------------------ "In a completely unrelated news story, I have a date tomorrow night." - Omega, in trying to explain why pigs are now flying, why Microsoft products are now working perfectly, hell freezing over, and George W Bush giving a flawless speech. 04/06/01, 12:17AM
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Ok, I'm 99% sure that Shik was joking.
To quote JeffK, Omega is right. Well, sorta. I've done a full-year course on globalization here, so while I may bullshit elsewhere, Tom=right is a good equation to keep in mind The reason free trade has problems in the Americas is that labour codes are different across the board, which makes the FTAA issue very different to the EC/EU. <aside>The latter was a situation where there were a variety of both big and small economies, not dominated by a single one, and a reasonable level of equity across the board in terms of development. Yes, Luxembourg has a better standard of living than Greece or Portugal. But it's nothing compared to Canada vs. Haiti. </aside> The EU managed to keep labour codes roughly the same across the board, and therefore a company setting up shop in one country isn't likely to save huge money by doing so. In the situation in the Americas, unionized factory workers might demand $30/hour with full benefits and overtime pay, while poor people in Bolivia will be more than willing to take a job for a thousanth of that, at least initially. Under free trade, the following tends to occur:
1) Gov't in banana republic thinks rapid industrialization and westernization will bring benfits to their nation.
2) Gov't allows foreign multination companies move into special economic zones they set up with close to no taxes and no regulation.
3) Foreign multinational provides employment for poverty-stricken peasantry. Rapidly changes local economies, wiping out subsistence farms in countryside, which, while not exactly fun to work at, tend to keep people fed and housed. Mass influx into cities, looking for work.
4) With an essentially bottomless labor force, no minimum wage, and no restrictions on overtime, foreign multinational hires hordes of locals and pays them pennies per day. (Generally paid by article completed, and not hour, and often with a quota for day's work that must be met to get any pay at all) Price of food driven up by lack of labourers on farms, therefore people working in factories are no probably eating worse then they were when living in countryside. Labourers can't ask for higher wage, or complain about sexual harassment in factories (apparently quite endemic) or bitch about anything because they will be fired and there are more than enough unemployed people to take their place who won't whine.
5) If at any point the local government chooses to stand up to the multinational and tells them to change labour practices or pay more taxes to gov't, company says screw you, plenty of banana republics left, and so it ups and goes to another, dropping all the jobs.
I wasn't at Quebec although some of the people from my university program went all right. IMHO, the FTAA can be fixed up in such a way as to protect labour rights everywhere and stop this sort of thing from happening, but the only problem is that the corporations tend to have more say in this than labour advocates. And, it has to be said, without the incentive of slightly lower operating costs, companies wouldn't ever go to these countries in the first place.
------------------ "I can be creative when I have a good idea. That just happens way too rarely." -Omega, April 6
[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited April 23, 2001).]
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
Do you mean to quote me, Tom? Cuz JeffK aint said a peep in this thread.
------------------ "In a completely unrelated news story, I have a date tomorrow night." - Omega, in trying to explain why pigs are now flying, why Microsoft products are now working perfectly, hell freezing over, and George W Bush giving a flawless speech. 04/06/01, 12:17AM
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
That's true...it was a bit of a joke. Those remarks are based on 7 years of analyzing Dominicans, Brazilians, Portuguese, Puerto Ricans, & Ecuadorians. I don't think there was a Mexican in the lot.
I'm on my 3rd Scottish shot glass of chardonnay right now. After this, I go to cognac & then to Johnnie Walker Black. Yay love.
------------------ "I'm beginning to think that there'll be NO forced mating at ALL!" --Professor Hubert T. Farnsworth
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Shik, you have the right idea tonight, except all the middle stuff..... Go right to seeing Johnny....
------------------ "One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant Star Trek: Legacy Read them, rate them, got money, film them
"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Tahna: I was quoting Omega's .sig, actually
------------------ "I can be creative when I have a good idea. That just happens way too rarely." -Omega, April 6
[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited April 24, 2001).]
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Peep.
------------------ Star Trek Gamma Quadrant Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted) *** "Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" -Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001 *** "I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.
The reason free trade has problems in the Americas is that labour codes are different across the board, which makes the FTAA issue very different to the EC/EU.