Flare Sci-Fi Forums: A Concern, Re: Human Cloning

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Today (well, yesterday, now), I watched Arnold "hasta -la vista, baby" Schwarzeneggar's flick The Sixth Day. This film is about cloning. While I don't want to spoil it for anyone who might see it, the technique exists to "grap" a person's mind and transplant it into a clone. Essentially, constant life.

But it's not, is it?

If someone takes a "capture" of my mind right now, and then shoots me, I'm dead. Even if my memories are implanted in an exact duplicate, my "soul" (if you will) will not go to the new clone. While my friends and family might be thrilled (and Omega no doubt irritated), there will be an exact copy of me, which is doing everything that I would've done with every memory I've got.

But it wouldn't be me.

In the movie, the Speaker of the House has his terminally-ill son cloned. Dr. Weir has had his wife cloned. People clone their pets when they die, and if the plans of Mr. Decker are successful, people will clone their loved ones when they die, too.

But, while delivering pies tonight, this thought really bothered me.

A clone which looks like my girlfriend, and talks like her, and thinks like her, and behaves exactly like her -- still isn't her. I find it rather disrespectful to the original person to "clone" them ... I want to be missed when I die, not have someone say, "Oh, well, Jeff's dead -- warm up the clone!"

In the movie, someone says a clone is the ultimate way of ensuring eternal life. But, you know, it's not that either. If Jeff The First is killed, and Jeff #2 is cloned with Jeff The First's memories, Jeff The First will never experience what Jeff #2 will. His life is over. It's only eternal life for the newest clone, who has the memories of each and every clone to come before.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
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"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Are you familiar w/ the concept of "fiction"?

For one thing, clones are not produced full-grown. Unless you're cloned at the moment of conception, your clone will always be younger than you. If we cloned you now, you're clone would always be... what, twenty-some years younger than you? Not much chance of the two of you ever looking exactly the same at the same time.

As for flashing light into someone's eyes, recording their entire memory, putting it on a floppy disk, and then uploading it into a clone's brain... Well, to put it simply, that == big fucking pile of bullshit.

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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

There is a difference between cloning a body and uploading a mind. The first is an almost trivial accomplishment. The second...well, let's wait a few decades and see what happens.

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OH NO< THE OLD MAN WALKS HIS GREEN DOG THAT SHOTS PINBALLS!~!!!
--
Jeff K
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and nothing at all will happen.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Data Error: Define Parameters -- 'Soul.'

Although you cannot clone a full adult being, (unless someone discovers a way to 'force-grow' a clone), you could always grow a new, brain-less body and have your brain transplanted into it (assuming that medical science will advance soon to the point at which a brain can be transplanted.. not too unlikely, given that we're starting to be able to regrow nerves, and spinal cords aren't far beyond that...

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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Yes, I understand that it's fiction.

Maybe I should of put this in the Officer's Lounge, but I thought this could get a bit "flamey" once people started talking about genetic enhancements and the like.

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited April 28, 2001).]

Posted by MC Infinity (Member # 531) on :

There is always a heated debate about these kinds of things, and while I beleive that cloning is not the way to go, I do beleive that genetic engineering is. All of the defects that are detected in a child before or at birth could be rectified thorough genetic re-sequencing. While a lot of people think this is wrong, I doubt that anyone would not accept it if they had given birth to a "defective" child in any way.

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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"

-Nimrod 16/4/2001

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

And what if they start engineering the color of a child's skin? Blue eyes over green, blonde hair over black? What limits do you impose on these aspects?

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

I agree with First. Define "soul."

See, there's this nifty little device, which they have recently made idiotproof, known as a "defibrillator." We use it on dead people to make them live again. Hmmm.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I don't think I'd want to be cloned, personally. I'm unique, and I like it that way, and I'm sure most of you do, too.

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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Yes, but engineering isn't cloning. Cloning is probably easier.

As for limits on engineering... I thought that's what laws and more government was for. Limit it to eliminating genetically-caused diseases (like spina bifida, cystic fibrosis, down's syndrome) and you should be fine.

Posted by MC Infinity (Member # 531) on :

not that type of engineering, just birth defects that will limit a child from becoming another successfull person in society, cosmetic modifications will not be legal on children but they should be available to adults that can make a choice, same as plastic surgery today.

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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"

-Nimrod 16/4/2001

Posted by Eclipse (Member # 472) on :

If if sufficiently many members of a society value (in whatever sense) attribute X in a person then lack of X becomes an obstacle to said person becoming 'another succesful person in society', regardless of whether X is 'cosmetic' or not.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Trek to the contrary, genetic modifications would have no drastic effect on adults. Only during fetal development.

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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

Posted by Quatre Winner (Member # 464) on :

I am against human cloning. When you start playing God in that way, then you open up a rather nasty Pandora's box that, knowing human proclivities like I do, can only lead to a lot of unecessary suffering.

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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

The only way to reach immortal existense technically is if you can transport your sentience/spirit/soul to another host body. Cloning just to live longer is stupid by default.

The thought of knowing that your clone will continue your life and you yourself'll die scares me.

Like in that Vidiian-ep in Voy where they commit capital suicide, that was terrible. I wonder if present-Harry ever lets his rationalization-guard down and thinks of the people around them that died years ago.
He's the only original left...
Well, one can argue which ship was the original, but it's natural to assume the one the camera was on during the first 20 minutes...

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

You know, I came in half way through that ep, and I until I saw the first half, I thought the OTHER was the original.

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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Only time I would've come during Trek was when Dax was smooching that other girl. The mere sight of Vidiians would've made me one cold turkey.

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

That was just a tad too much info, Turnip-breath

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Don't be ashamed, Jeff. It's perfectly normal to get a bit drowsy after unit discharge, don't worry about it. *slaps arm on shoulder*

*sniff sniff* Ah, you noticed my new recipe? Sheep's brains and turnip pat�, all squeezed up inside a toothpaste tube. For quick refreshment und energy.
*LeytonSpeak* Calms the nads...

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Restitutor decrees: You are banished.

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"...he got a mind control car from a great menace named Euri and they began conquest! THE RED MENANCE~ so yuo have too fight back and destroy teh RED TIDE before it destroys the AMERICAN!!! PS: The russiens also took over Texas and thats good becuase Texans need to have robots with missales shoved up there butts anyways (texans are the worst evar)."

-JEFF K.

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

I wonder. Can they transplant a human mind into a donkeys body? Honestly, it'd be real funny to debate with someone who could only bray about the constitution.

Think on it.

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Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

[This message has been edited by Daryus Aden (edited April 30, 2001).]

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Well, Ultra Pendragon, you may be self-proclaimed turnip monarch, but I am turnip.
Sheathe thy sword, o impatient one.

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Daryus: Yeah, but it rather takes the fun out of calling someone a jackass, when they are... :-)

Posted by The Talented Mr. Gurgeh (Member # 318) on :

I don't think that there's anything morally wrong with cloning, the clone is just a person that happens to genetically identical to another person. Because they'll have different experiences from the moment they're born and be completely different to the clone mentally, I don't think it's a big issue. In most respects it is no more unethical than in vitro or any other method of conception where outside intervention is used.

However, I think it's not really necessary, I mean, there are enough (too many, rather) people brought into the world through ordinary methods.

As for re-sequencing the genome, I think it's a good idea, if they can do it properly. We've evolved through blind evolution, a very slow process. At some stage (and I don't think we've quite reached this stage yet) we will be able to alter our evolutionary path without depending on such a crude mechanism as natural selection. The possibilities are endless, I recommend anyone that's interested should read some of Iain M. Banks' ideas in his Culture series. In theory we should be able to eradicate all genetic defects, and increase our resistance to non-genetic disorders, as well as more frivolous stuff like improving orgasms.

However, the difficulties involved here shouldn't be underestimated. Any change made will most probably have knock-on effects in other systems as the whole thing hangs on creating enzymes, which could interfere in the vastly complex systems that already exist in "human-basic" cells. I think it will be quite a while before we have enough knowledge of, and experience with, our genome to start making alterations to it.

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"If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing."

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Tim, truer words were never spoken.

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Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.