The Energy crises. First it was California now it's spread to states such as Wisconsin and Iowa. I recently heard W talking about this. You wanna know what his answer is? Tax-cuts!! Wow. I never knew tax cuts can make more power plants magically appear to creaet more energy. I also never knew that tax-cuts can magically make our computers, Air conditioners, and microwaves more energy efficient. Don't tell me. The tax-cuts are meant to help people cope with their rising energy costs. That's all fine and dandy, but with the energy shortage getting worse and energy getting more expensive, a tax-cut isn't going to do squat 2 to 3 years down the road.

I also heard V.P. Cheney talking about the energy crises on MSNBC I think it was. He said "We have to find ways to make ourselves MORE dependant on coal." Question. Are their imaginations so limited that they think of dirty, obsolete fossil fuels as the answer to everything? I think so. Then I hear Bush talking about how we have to develop new technologies to get us off the oil and the other dirty fossil fuels on MSNBC. Wasn't Gore saying this during the campagins? Ok. Maybe Bush disagreed with Gore at the time, but now decided that Gore was right. Fine. I have no problem with that. However, it's going to be a bit difficult to develop new technologies when his budget plan slashes the alternative fuels R&D budget.

Weather you believe it or not, we can get off fossil fuels tomarrow if we have to. Although I wouldn't recommend it due to our economy being so dependant on it. I'm not one of those super-liberal types that wants to see change instantanously because I know that to do such a thing would unleash hell for our economy, but I know that we can slowly slide into alternatives without harming our economy if D.C. would gather up the balls to tell big oil and the opec nations to piss off. But that would risk the politician's sources for campaign money! We can't have that can we?!?

A 100x100 mile square of solar panels working at 10 percent effeciencies would forfill ALL of our energy needs. Half that space would NOT be used at all because the solar panels need to be spaced apart from each other so that they don't give each other shade. With 15 percent effeciencies solar panels expected in a few years, the amount of space needed would drop by 30%. (Popular Science magazine, August 2000, Page 51.)I'm just using that 100x100 mile square thing as an example. I'm not saying we reserve a space that big, but we can easily spread 100x100 miles worth of solar panels across the country. A few here and a few there. It adds up quite fast. Solar isn't the only alternativ out there. There is also things like Wind, Hydroelectric as well.

The same goes for cars too. I have read a few stories about people retro-fitting their cars to run on corn startch, used cooking grease that you can get from your local McDonalds, and even hemp!! So why, when the topic of the energy crises comes up, do all the bigwigs in D.C. both Democratic and Republican never bother to give things like this ANY consideration? You've got me. One side says we have to burn more oil, more coal, more everything for more energy. The other side says we must live in caves and heat are homes with fire like our ancestors in the year 40,000 B.C. This is getting pathetic. For god's sake let's get rid of both parties and put in people that actually have some common sense into office.

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"I don't mind being called a liar when I'm lying, or am about to lie, or have just finished lying, but NOT WHEN I'M TELLING THE TRUTH!-----Homer Simpson. Hey! Now that I think about it, this quote would be a good one for Bill Clinton!

[This message has been edited by MIB (edited May 22, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by MIB (edited May 22, 2001).]
 

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It never stops, when my mama ask me will I change
I tell her yeah, but it's clear I'll always be the same
Until the end of time
- Tupac Shakur, Untill the End of Time

[This message has been edited by infinity11 (edited May 22, 2001).]
 

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"Even the colors are pompous!"
-a friend of mine, looking at a Lexus brochure
 

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"Even the colors are pompous!"
-a friend of mine, looking at a Lexus brochure
 

Which is why that's not what he proposes as a solution. He proposes increasing the energy supply as a solution. The tax cut WILL help somewhat in the short term, though.

I also heard V.P. Cheney talking about the energy crises on MSNBC I think it was. He said "We have to find ways to make ourselves MORE dependant on coal."

Give me a source for that quote, in context.

A 100x100 mile square of solar panels working at 10 percent effeciencies would forfill ALL of our energy needs.

Yeah, and if it's night, or cloudy, then you have no power. So if it's dark outside, it becomes dark inside?

Infinity:

That's 10,000 square miles. Meaning it's ALMOST as big as your country.

As for the solution, it's to BUILD MORE PLANTS. This is a long-term problem (thank you, Davis and Clinton), and the solution is therefore also long-term. All stop-gap measures requested of the Federal government have been implemented, with the exception of national price controls, which is just a stupid idea and would screw up supplies even further. In fact, Davis REFUSED to accept an offered waver of EPA regs so that their backup plants could run and generate the power that they need. The solution was not to allow this to happen in the first place.

------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

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"Goverment exists to serve, not to lead. We do not exist by its volition, it exists by ours. Bear that in mind when you insult your neighbors for refusing to bow before it." J. Richmond

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It never stops, when my mama ask me will I change
I tell her yeah, but it's clear I'll always be the same
Until the end of time
- Tupac Shakur, Untill the End of Time
 

As for the Dick Cheney quote; I can't give you an exact date of when I saw it but I can tell you it was 2 to 2 1/2 weeks ago on MSNBC.

One more thing. You were right about Bush's plan to build more power plants. More power plants to burn more coal, more oil, and more everything!
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"I don't mind being called a liar when I'm lying, or am about to lie, or have just finished lying, but NOT WHEN I'M TELLING THE TRUTH!-----Homer Simpson.

[This message has been edited by MIB (edited May 22, 2001).]
 

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I'll kill you, you bloated museum of treachery!
~ C. Montgomery Burns

 

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"I don't mind being called a liar when I'm lying, or am about to lie, or have just finished lying, but NOT WHEN I'M TELLING THE TRUTH!"--Homer Simpson.

And is it true that the official name of Macedonia is "the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia"? With a name like that, why'd the even bother to declare independence. That would be like calling the US "the Former British Colonies of America"... *L*

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"Even the colors are pompous!"
-a friend of mine, looking at a Lexus brochure
 

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"I don't mind being called a liar when I'm lying, or am about to lie, or have just finished lying, but NOT WHEN I'M TELLING THE TRUTH!"--Homer Simpson.

Getting back on ze track, I saw a very promising article about fuel cells and their incorporation into cars and trains. We'll have hydrogen cars in a few years, I think it will be good.

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"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

Samuel Hoffenstein
 

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"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

Samuel Hoffenstein
 

quote:

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So why, when the topic of the energy crises comes up, do all the bigwigs in D.C. both Democratic and Republican never bother to give things like this ANY consideration?

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It's called the Oil Lobby.

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I'll kill you, you bloated museum of treachery!
~ C. Montgomery Burns

 

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takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory
 

As for Jay, I'm with what JeffR said a while back. While he used to bring interesting information to the table, his comments are no longer worth responding too, as they are based on emotion instead of fact. The FACT is that this tax cut helps everyone. Period.

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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

2. You cannot spread solar collectors in various areas the country, for the simple reason that clear days are UNCOMMON. ONLY in the southwest can we insure a majority of sunny days. (I'll give you an example: PA has on average, 60 clear days a YEAR, according to the National Weather Institute)

3. Tax cuts give the companies more capital with which to build plants, hire workers to staff them, and pay the costs of complying with legions of government-mandated regulations, many of which are stupid (like those $300 ergonomic seats that the Clinton Administration wanted employers to buy all their employees - fortunately, this one was caught and dealt with by placing it in the circular file.)

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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited May 23, 2001).]
 

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"I don't mind being called a liar when I'm lying, or am about to lie, or have just finished lying, but NOT WHEN I'M TELLING THE TRUTH!"--Homer Simpson.

[This message has been edited by MIB (edited May 23, 2001).]
 

If you're not sure, and you have little to say, repeat yourself several times. Maybe saying it over and over will make it true.

Not.

I just READ the above article (It's good to be a librarian, we keep magazines) and NREL did NOT calculate such things.

And again, it does NOT take weather into account. You would need at least TWICE that amount, spread into different locations, to insure coverage for even SLIGHT weather variations.

I was in New Mexico, which would be the ideal place for solar power, a few years back. It rained/was overcast for SEVEN STRAIGHT DAYS. I don't think you want your entire power supply to be relying on that.

Whup, it's overcast in Arizona,, better cut power to Atlanta.

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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited May 23, 2001).]
 

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"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

Samuel Hoffenstein
 

------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

If you want to talk about something else...that is when apart from calling names and ignoring the question...deal with the fact that Americans have been sold the 'electric lifestyle' for 50 years. Deal with the fact that Americans are waking up to the fact that they are loosing and have lost tremendous amounts of wild space to the point that it takes reservations and a year to get into a national park...about the only 'wild' space around.

Deal with the fact that people realize that brown air sucks. Why does Los Angeles not have a pubic transportation system to speak of? It's because of the fact that way back when, when oil companies realized the profits that could be made from huge amounts of cars, they helped to remove the old Red Line. Which as I recall, now sits out in the ocean as fish habitat.

Deal with the fact that oil is not an infinite resourse and they people are starting to realize what 100 years of dependence on it has done to the environment that we all have to live in while it's drilling and processing has enriched oh so very few but at what cost. And along those lines, people realize that there are tremendous technological advances that our civilization could use if our collective voices represented in Washington had the guts to fund study and practical application in the face of the lobby efforts of others who would see profits tumble as a result.

I believe that people are getting tired of the arrogant attitude that you and the far right represent. This anyting as long as its profitable mentality. It old. The conservation notions of social darwinsm only goes so far when face with the realities of culture and civilization.

Oh, and Bush hasn't done squat for California save allowing his Texas power people to gouge. The persons who did squat on California were the Republican governor, the Republican legislature, and the overblown fat cats if the utility companys who pushed through a looser of a deregulation plan so they could see a ton of profits. They had them, business got them as parent companies like Edison reaped huge amounts of money from the utility company for a couple of years and then the bottom fell out.

Now were stuck with an oil man and a vice-oil man who have a SINGLE way of thinking. Which would roughly be "well, only more oil will get us out of this mess." And damned if their old pals don't profit along the way. I read a critique of the Oil Man in the White House's energy policy, and the argument went along the lines of America can have as much oil from foreign markets as they want for so and so for a barrel. So why drill in ANWR? So that American oil men can go make money sted of them damn foreigners.

I believe it was Sweeden that just built a hug collection of off shore windmills that will supply tons of power. Whe do we not do something along those lines? Easy. It doesn't help the Oil Lobby.

The facts of the case are thus. Deal with it.

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I'll kill you, you bloated museum of treachery!
~ C. Montgomery Burns

 

How are we coming along with fusion? Hot or cold. Is there any hope?

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"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

Samuel Hoffenstein

 

It's called a sector of the economy making of mass amounts of profit.

I wasn't aware that 8% anual profit constituted "mass amounts."

Oh, and Bush hasn't done squat for California

Except every (rational) thing they asked? And offering to do stuff they refused? Just what do you WANT him to do, anyway?

So why drill in ANWR? So that American oil men can go make money sted of them damn foreigners.

Or so we can stop buying from Sadaam? Ya think? Personally, I LIKE the idea of our people making money instead of foreigners, especially that "damn foreigner". You know why? JOBS. It's good for the economy. Not to mention the moral abhorence I feel towards supporting that SOB in Iraq in any way, form or manner. Oh, and all the natural gas in the ANWR. More of that than oil, by far.

Now were stuck with an oil man and a vice-oil man who have a SINGLE way of thinking. Which would roughly be "well, only more oil will get us out of this mess."

You haven't been listening to a word they said, have you? The gasoline problem can be solved with more refineries. The power problem can be solved with more plants. Oil... where?

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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

The Oil Companies are behind the suppression of the existence of aliens, too, Jay.

>"they are loosing and have lost tremendous amounts of wild space to the point that it takes reservations and a year to get into a national park...about the only 'wild' space around."

Bullshit. All but the most urbanized states are FULL of wilderness. Pennsylvania alone has 27,200 square miles of forest, (that's 3/5 of the whole state) much of which is pristine. The reason it takes reservations and a year to get into a National Park is government regulations.

>"Deal with the fact that people realize that brown air sucks."

We dealt with that in Pittsburgh more than 20 years ago, without harming industry OR cutting consumption. Your other cities' methods must suck, or something.

>"it's drilling and processing has enriched oh so very few but at what cost."

Well for starters, everybody who's ever lived in an industrialized country, and everybody who hasn't who's traded with them, since the Industrial Revolution started. But let's forget about them.

>"California were the Republican governor, the Republican legislature, and the overblown fat cats if the utility companys who pushed through a looser of a deregulation plan so they could see a ton of profits. They had them, business got them as parent companies like Edison reaped huge amounts of money from the utility company for a couple of years and then the bottom fell out."

Of course, the bottom fell out because they only deregulated halfway, a point you keep conveniently forgetting, (you can't force companies to keep their rates limited if the price of energy changes, and have a workable system. It's the economy, stupid) largely thinks to your Democratic governor. And the overblown blowhards in the environmental lobby who kneecapped the populace by creating regulations so tight and expensive that even WITH profits, the companies could not afford the hassle of building new plants.

Why drill in ANWR?
1. It will bost the local economy, and the natives want that. They'd like to live in the 21st century like the rest of us. Taxes generated will allow them to better manage the wildlife (this is their words, not mine), so that the Caribou herds will grow (as they have whenever drilling happened in the past, much to the chagrin of the doomsayers. The caribou population is six times what it was when the drilling started.)

2. Because dependency on others is BAD. We shouldn't be relying on hostile nations and petty thugs (isn't that a line from Insurrection?) controlling our energy market.

3. Because the alternatives STILL don't work. This isn't Sweden, we don't have their population or their weather patterns. I AGREE that more money should be spent on developing alternatives, especially solar. But the way to do that is to make it PROFITABLE. Government doesn't do that. Government rarely does ANYTHING efficiently, except take your money. (No, I take that back. Look at that tax code, that's not efficient either.)

YOU build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door. You make solar profitable (which is NOT the same as making everything else more expensive), and Industry will beat that path for you. Which is where tax breaks for the use/development of alternative energies comes in. That's profit. (Which can be put back into R&D to make more efficient products which create more profit, etc.) Money talks. Bullshit walks.

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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited May 23, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited May 25, 2001).]
 

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"I was as dead as a lesbian black chick at a republican fundraiser."
--Burns Flipper, The Longest Journey
 

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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
 

You stay off for a couple of days and just look what happens...

The west and east coasts are practically a single city for the length of the seaboard...so the urbanized American is spreading out at rather large rates. The biodiversity that exists in Pennsylvania is not the same biodiversity that used to exist in California and off it's coast... nor is it the same that exists in Alaska...nor is the same that used to exist places where big oil has been.

And PLEASE stop beating the dead horse of government regulations being the cause for everything including the Lindberg kidnapping.

Since you Fo2, talk about my ancestral homeland of Pennsylvania, you must realize that the major reason for Pittsburg cleaning up the air is the fact that the steel industry died in that region. My gradfather worked at Pullman in Butler PA and as steel died so did Pullman. Pittsburg has gone through a certain renaissance, but that in no way clears the air of Los Angeles and dear old Houston...who we are in a tight race with for the worst air in the nation.

But dare I be accused of be Americacentric, bad brown exists all over the world.

Regarding your Industrial Revolution argument...well now let's look at that. The Industrial Revolution began in the early 1700's and petroleum did not become wildly profitable until John D. Rockefeller asked why were they throwing all this other stuff away. We can burn that.

Now, human history moves through ages as evidenced by the Industrial Revolution. More recently we've entered into a Post Industrial Age and it is my argument that we are on the cusp of a post oil age. It has been usefull for that which it did, but the costs have added up as have technologies that can replace it. Clearly, there are those people still making major profits on oil who resist with everything they have in their arsenal any move away from burining formerly living things. That you can not see that is unfortunate.

Regarding ANWR, I recently heard an interview with oil industry people currently up in Alaska saying that they really have no huge desire to go into ANWR. And even more to your point about jobs jobs jobs, talked about a very interesting idea that has been floating around for a while...is a natural gas pipeline to run next to the current oil pipeline. Seeing as how there are several trillion tons of gas pumped back Prudhoe Bay waiting to be used. Heck, even the Sierrra Club was for it and it would add more jobs than you could count.

Drilling in ANWR isn't neccessary. The post oil age looms and how are we getting ready for it...drilling for every last drop despite everything.

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I'll kill you, you bloated museum of treachery!
~ C. Montgomery Burns

 

Necessary? No. Good? Yes, as we've shown.

it is my argument that we are on the cusp of a post oil age

You have an argument? Please, post it. 'Cause all we have right now are a series of disjointed statements. You want to stop using oil? Fine. Show me a reasonable alternative.

And PLEASE stop beating the dead horse of government regulations being the cause for everything including the Lindberg kidnapping.

We'll stop stating our proof that government regulations are screwing up the economy as soon as you either accept it as truth or show a flaw in our reasoning. Government interference IS the cause of this crisis, to a large degree, as it has been with every major economic crisis since the beginning of the century. Accept it and move on, or deny it and be humiliated.

Since you Fo2, talk about my ancestral homeland of Pennsylvania, you must realize that the major reason for Pittsburg cleaning up the air is the fact that the steel industry died in that region.

Oh, my, your ancestral homeland! Your geneticly stored knowledge of the past must be far more relevant than Rob's extensive knowledge of present conditions! I take it all back.

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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

quote:

---

Oh, my, your ancestral homeland! Your geneticly stored knowledge of the past must be far more relevant than Rob's extensive knowledge of present conditions! I take it all back.

---

My, my. This from the whiney bastard who decries personal attacks.

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I'll kill you, you bloated museum of treachery!
~ C. Montgomery Burns

 

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"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

Your sarcastic harangue:

quote:

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Your geneticly stored knowledge of the past must be far more relevant than Rob's extensive knowledge of present conditions!

---

Is an imbecilic and childish thing to say. It may suprise you to know, that I do get to hear some things about that place in the world from family still back there and that I read about goings on too and that I do not rely on innate knowledge. Further it attacks the fact that I do know something of the world in which I live while at the same time making yourself look foolish.

Your poorly drawn thoughts and illogical conculsions drawn from little or no thinking about the situation is evidence of the fact that you would rather say something pithy rather than something relevant.

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I'll kill you, you bloated museum of treachery!
~ C. Montgomery Burns

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited May 26, 2001).]
 

On a side note, did you ever realise (Ommey dear) that a problem with increasing the supply of non-renewable resources is that they will run out even faster.

And destroy the environment. (Oil, coal etc).

Now you tell me, is it smart to increase your dependence on something that is going to run out in the forseeable future and damage your enviroment at the same time? Nyet Comrade. It is not. Bush's 'idea' is imbecilic.

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Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

Of course, the reason that the steel industry dried up is... survey says?

Cheap steel from China!
Where the foundries are four times as dirty as they are here! And where steel is much cheaper to make, because nobody has to pay the costs of keeping the process clean! Because China cares far less about the environment, and doesn't regulate their pollution at ALL!

Because despite the amounts of CO2 and other waste that the US puts out, any pure productivity vs. pollution comparison would show that we're already the cleanest country on Earth!

See, CO2 is produced by ANY human activity. The amount of CO2 your country generates is a sign of its economic activity and production, not just pollution by the big, bad corporations.

>"The biodiversity that exists in Pennsylvania is not the same biodiversity that used to exist in California and off it's coast... nor is it the same that exists in Alaska...nor is the same that used to exist places where big oil has been." (Yeah, there's MORE Caribou now.)

Nor is it the same as existed before the White man came, before Indians came, before the Ice Age, or before the Continents drifted. This is what we call 'non-story.' Things chance, especially when a new dominant species moves in. Especially when that species is capable of modifying its environment to suit its interests. It ain't the end of the world.

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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited May 26, 2001).]
 

Oh, my, they'll run out in 375 years instead of 400 years. You're right, that's horrible.

I fully expect someone to have developed a reasonable alternative by them, don't you?

And destroy the environment.

*L*

Riiiight...

If the worst polution we can spit out barely makes LA unpleasant, and some good restructuring can clean even that up, as shown by Pittsburgh, I'm not too worried about the environment.

Now you tell me, is it smart to increase your dependence on something that is going to run out in the forseeable future

The sun's going to contract into a white dwarf in the forseeable future. Guess we should ditch solar power, huh?

and damage your enviroment at the same time?

The environmental damage is minimal and reversable.

It is not.

Then give me a better alternative. Yeah, we need someone in the private sector to come up with a better power supply, but until then, we're dependant upon the one we have, so we need it to be as abundantly available as possible.

I'm surprised at you, friend. You're not thinking things through. You don't ditch one necessity until you have something with which to replace it. You're suggesting that we allow our supply to dwindle BEFORE we have a viable replacement, and for what reason? To prevent some minor environmental damage?

------------------
"How do you define fool?"
"I don't attempt it. I wait for demonstrations. They inevitably surpass my imagination."
- CJ Cherryh, Invader

quote:

---

If the worst polution we can spit out barely makes LA unpleasant...

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Years ago, before those damnable tree huggers began to make a dent, the air was downright unhealthy. Don't suppose you were up on that since it takes time away from being smug.

As for the oft mentioned private sector, I for one am quite glad that there has never been any government sponsored programs that has helped advance technology or medicine or any of that stuff that we as a civilization can make use of collectivly. Cause that might just burst someone's little theoretical baloon. Gads.
 

Not that I want to restart that old chestnut, but this is a strange rhetorical device for you to use, Omega, when you have in the past denied that scientists know anything at all about the sun.
 

Do you remember making that statement? Well, are you still standing by that?
 

Fascinating.
 

Is it because I'm not smug? I can fix that...
 

quote:

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is a natural gas pipeline to run next to the current oil pipeline. Seeing as how there are several trillion tons of gas pumped back Prudhoe Bay waiting to be used. Heck, even the Sierrra Club was for it and it would add more jobs than you could count.

---

This is ALSO on the Energy policy 'to-do' list.