To make the long story short, the idea is to impose tariffs against cheap foreign-made steel (currently being 'dumped' on the market, according to the financial channels), to protect our own industries and economy. Which is sound, financially.
But there's a side effect.
Most of this cheap, foreign steel comes from foundries in China. Foundries that make our dirtiest mills look like a hospital surgical ward by comparison. Foundries that pollute ten times more than ones in the US, spewing sulfur dioxide and other greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.
Less production = less pollution.
Just doing out part, but you can hold the applause, since you'll hold it anyway.
Look! I set fire to people! But I destroyed nasty bacteria while doing it.
It's a good law. It will at the very least allow the Chinese government to clean up its act. As soon as they stop whining.
I read somewhere about a new Everglades-protecting initiative, and saw somewhere else where there's money going to the national parks to help take care of the maintenance backlog (hmm, how'd that backlog pile up during the Clinton/Gore overseer era? I thought they were PRO-wildlife areas?) Unfortunately, I haven't linked to those yet.
Omega: I never said it was bad. Your English reading = bad.
I'm just not going to suddenly start praising the all mighty George Dubya just because one of his laws to protect the US also happens to help the world.
We all know of your outright hatred of the Chinese Commies and such, but perhaps you could talk in a more "reconciliary" tone.
One does not reconcile with evil people in control of the largest army on the planet and the ability to nuke any city anywhere (thank you, Bill), and who have no conscience. One destroys them. Don't you get it? We're talking about a handful of people who are trampling the rights of over a fifth of the planet, and threatening the security of the rest of it! If given the choice between allowing someone like that to continue and stopping them, you STOP THEM.
Liam:
I'm just not going to suddenly start praising the all mighty George Dubya just because one of his laws to protect the US also happens to help the world.
So then just what WILL you praise him for? If he passed a law that you thought helped China while hurting us, you'd undoubtedly say he wasn't doing his job.
What one does is to make most favored nation trade status permanent!
That is aside from wiping them off the face of the earth because we and they disagree. Other than that priceless bit of information there's not much else I can glean from your post.
Damn those evil people. I wish we could paint them with a broader brush...I'd better go to The Home Depot!
[ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: Jay the Obscure ]
quote:
What one does is to make most favored nation trade status permanent!
Okay. How long have they had that status, what's changed in that time, and how will we know when it starts working?
Personally, I think any recent reform in China is more due to some of the old hard-liners dying off than to any real economic influence.
The point I make is that there are many in Washington who, as conservative as anyone here, don't care to make the Chinese into mincemeat because of any personal feelings of evilness (but that won't stop our dear board mates from huriling moral invictives about like rice). Preferring instead to take that 'economic freedom' and the American lack of linking MFN status to human rights route and line their own pockets thereby not doing a derned thing.
[ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: Jay the Obscure ]
No, and I won't say anymore.
If he does something that helps the world, off his own back, and doesn't just help the US. Cutting Co2 emmissions, researching alternative sources of power, cutting third world debt, making Mojo Jojo the new Vice-President, something along those lines.
Or he could send me a birthday card. One isn't too much to ask for.
"Bush took a tour of the Energy Department, and announced $85.7 million in federal grants to encourage academia and the private sector to develop fuel technologies and energy-efficient products."
Maybe I'm wrong. I've also heard that the Republican dominated Senate at the time blew that proposal right out of the water.
Admittedly, this information may be wrong, but it is what I have heard.
I can buy parts for the wholesale company I work for here in the states, a stainless steel jaw slide, for $2.35 (plus shipping), or from China for $1.167 (including shipping).
Most of the stainless steel, in the boating industry, except tubing, is made in China, Taiwan (Mini-China), or Philippines.
Chrome Plated Zamack (Die Cast) is mostly made in the States, but, is becoming more popular from overseas sources.
A lot of the foundries in the above nations are becoming QS/ISO-9000/2000 certified, to maintain the ability to sell in the States. This certification covers all aspects of how a factory operates, from how paper work is done to production quality.
If the people pressure the government in to getting the big three auto makers, which started the whole thing, to add pollution control standards then we may have something.
Then we can argue over whether the government should be forcing this to happen, and if so what is the limit.... etc....
The first step, that I see, to the One World Government that we see in Terk, is Global Economy. Which is what binds nations and starts wars.
Where to start???
Let me tell you, if there's ANY way to get your eyes on that program, TAKE IT.
Yahoo News: ABC Forced to Edit Special
China's potential military threat is negligable, in relation to you. They may be able to overrun Korea, but they are hardly the equivalent of the Soviets (Armies from the 80's not the current Russian ones). Not even close, as a matter of fact.
YOU are much more of a threat. Now, I'm hardly saying that China is a nice sweet country, personally I feel their govt is a bunch of aggressive arse wipes who have a overblown case of middle kingdom syndrome, but obliterating them is not an option.
Jay:
As for the 'free market' what a bunch of bollocks! You just raised your tariffs - hypocrits! Listen, China will act in China's own interest, as will the USA. They will use you for their gain and make some minor concessions, as will you. Money won't change a damn thing. Hell, it may even give them what the need to actually turn into a threat. I mean a real one, not the fantasy nation that Ommey is on about.
[ July 01, 2001: Message edited by: Daryus Aden ]
Us, a threat? Just how did you come to this conclusion? No, wait, "conclusion" implies a chain of reasoning, which I seriously doubt that you've formed on the subject. Have we started a war of agression since the invasion of Canada in 1812? If we wanted to rule the world, we could and would. We don't. China's the threat to world peace, not us.
As for the market, the US market is free. The world market isn't. Simple enough.
quote:
If we wanted to rule the world, we could and would.
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Sorry.
But considering that the U.S. of good ole' A couldn't even rule Vietnam, Omega's statement seems to say enough for why homeschooling is a piss-poor idea.
[ July 01, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff Kardde ]
[ July 01, 2001: Message edited by: Jeff Kardde ]
quote:
Originally posted by Omega:
They are controlled by people with no morals... They ARE a threat, whether you think so or not... China's the threat to world peace, not us.
The above quote is a sample of propaganda. In this case, we have a wonderful example of a technique called "name-calling." In this instance, we are attempting to demonize our enemy in order to give ourselves the reassuring feeling that we are not wrong in our effort to turn a quarter of the world's population into free-floating molecules.
quote:
Us, a threat?
Yes, believe it or not, the United States of America is a threat. We possess what is probably the world's most advanced military in terms of technology. We have a nuclear device strapped to everything that moves short of gerbils and mosquitos. We have enough firepower stockpiled to send the Earth back in time by several centuries. We have shown ourselves to be quite the righteous people as we interfere in the internal dynamics of other nations. There's Panama that immediately comes to mind as well as quite a few West African nations. How about the School of the Americas, where we train guerrillas so that they can go start revolutions in their home countries? We done all this before, and we have the means of doing all this again. In summary, yes, we are a threat.
quote:
If we wanted to rule the world, we could and would.
No, we could not. The United States may have the most military technology available, but all that is good for is bringing the governments of the other hundred-plus nations into submission. And even if the governments submitted, the 6 billion people of the world would not. There would be constant rebellions and other acts of violent outrage. The US could never force 6 billion people to believe that taking over the world was a good thing.
However, before even getting there, one has to assume that the United States could single-handedly defeat the rest of the world combined. This is not possible as well. As we bombed them to hell, many nations (like the UK, France, Russia, China) would retaliate. The result would be anarchy as all governments collapsed. Read Alas, Babylon! for one interpretation of how things could have gone if the USA and USSR squared off many years ago.
Can we get Rufus here?
[ July 02, 2001: Message edited, for good measure, by: Nimrod ]
[ July 02, 2001: Message edited by: Nimrod ]
Never have I met a more biased, self-important, propaganda-sprouting, conservative zealout than him.
Question Omega: do you sleep with a gun under your pillow?
And yes buddy, you are a threat! And no, you are not 'free'. What you are, is spouting propaganda.
Pray tell me how a US company exploiting workers in sweat shops in Indonesia is good for anything? And I mean anything?
And don't give me that tripe about '30 cents a day is plenty if you live in Indonesia' or 'The factories burning rubber day in & day out don't harm the environment. Or any other such nonsense.
They have jobs. Their jobs are better than they would have otherwise. It's still illegal, though, and should be stopped.
And yes buddy, you are a threat!
Again, you base this on... what, exactly? You think that ANYONE with a superior military to yours is a threat? Daryus, if that's the case, EVERYONE is a threat to Australia, short of Iceland.
Ironically, the world would have been a better place because of someone who proposed a total annihilation of the Chinese, Russians, and other people whom he perceives as a threat.
And just who are we talking about, here? 'Cause I've never met or heard of anyone who espoused these beliefs.
quote:
And just who are we talking about, here? 'Cause I've never met or heard of anyone who espoused these beliefs.
So, do you deny saying this:
One does not reconcile with evil people in control of the largest army on the planet and the ability to nuke any city anywhere, and who have no conscience. One destroys them.
THINK, people. Don't just jump to conclusions that suit you.
TMCND Mk 1
Tiny, Mosquito Carrying, Nuclear Device Mark 1
Omega, that sentence has just described the US political system for the past upteen years. So WE ARE a threat!!! Politically speaking....
I am a graduate of the School of the Americas, USAIS, thank you. Along with Cubans, Beliezen(sp?), Panamianains(???), and other Central/South American countries that I won't even attempt to spell. Until I get a word processor running anyway.
JeffK, was that long enough????
One of the basic tennants of communist states is the agressive expansion of their oppression. Thankfully, China hasn't been quite as good at it as Russia used to be, but with 1.2 billion people under the total control of an illegitimate government, the existence of the communist government of China is still an attrocity, even without expansion.
But...weren't we the ones that aided Europe (or at least did not oppose them) in carving the territory of China up into spheres of influence, treated them like second class citizens (hell, not even citizens) in the US, supported the militaristic and corrupt government which was eventually driven out by the communist revolution, etc....? Which all started WAAAY back in the 1800s.
Were we not the ones that were a threat to them first?
And "atrocity" is spelled with one "t".
Did I spell "duely" right"? 'Cause I don't think...
*checks*
Darn.
DULY noted.
My spelling is an atrocity. 
Were we not the ones that were a threat to them first?
That was a threat to a completely seperate government, and even then, we didn't have anything to do with it. Poland stood by and let it happen, too, but you don't see China going to war with Poland over it. The current state of hostility between the US and the government of the Socialist Dictatorship of China (PRC is just too much of a lie for me to repeat any more, thus the more accurate title) can be traced back to their unprovoked attack on our forces in the Korean war.
Governments that let "they started it" guide their foreign policy are in dire need of being locked in a small, dark room with Anne Robinson.
Israel: "Let's keep arse-fucking the Arab scum! They started it!"
Palestine: "Let's keep arse-fucking the Zionist shit monkeys! They started it!"
N.I. Catholics: "Let's keep arse-fucking the Prods! They started it!"
N.I. Protestants: "Let's keep arse-fucking the Micks! They started it!"
Ethnic Albanians: "Let's keep arse-fucking those Slavic assfaces! They started it!"
Macedonians and Serbians: "Let's keep arse-fucking those Albanian wankers! They started it!"
I'd toss in Iraq, Iran, the Kurds, the Turks, the Pakistanis, the Indians, the Vietnamese, the Javans, the Papuans, the Basques, the Spaniards, the Columbian gov't and its rebels etc. etc... but I'd run out of suitable insults.
The Korean War is a relic of history. If you use it as justification for the pursuance of an aggressive war-mongering foreign policy against PRC (yes, the name might be innacurate, but if your name is Gerry Adams, so is "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland") then Canada would be equally justified in militarizing from its foundation, someday hoping to get back at those "evil people in control of the largest army on earth" who, in a textbook example of an illegal invasion, attempted to forcibly annex Canada in 1812.
Anyway, back to your history. The United States has most certainly attempted to forcibly conquer other sovereign states since 1814. Gee, how the hell did little places like Guam and American Samoa become part of the US? Or how about Teddy Roosevelt's little campaigns in the Caribbean, hmm? And yes, the process continued right through the two World Wars when the US did some incredibly awful things in the name of "defending democracy against communism" when it was in fact "defending free-market economies controlled by rump juntas of wealthy fuckheads against democratically elected populists who wanted to crack down on foreign exploitation." Siegfried has already brought up the School of the Americas. I spent months last year researching a term paper on the CIA-under-GHWB/Kissinger/Nixon's dealings in the Southern Cone and Operation Condor (the repressive secret organization, not the Jackie Chan film), and the amount of evidence that Americans were actively helping aforementioned nasty juntas exterminate evil commie bastards makes Darwinian theory look as unfounded as the collected canon of Gene Ray. (Oh, wait...)
Anyway, while in Latin America the Americans didn't actually send their People's Liberation Army marching in and call the area the "United States Overseas Possession of Chile," they did essentially the same thing. So, to China's credit, at least they're honest about commiting military aggression.
Anyway, America is by and large a free and democratic country and has by and large nice people in it. But it doesn't need people advocating the myth that it defends democracy and takes the moral high ground as a matter of due course. America's foreign policy is easily the most self-serving in the Western World. "Gee, whiz, let's not support a ban on antipersonnel landmines, cuz, gee, American soldiers need to use landmines to save democracy, and besides, every landmine Americans lay is only gonna kill evil commie bastards." "Gee, whiz, let's not support having an International Criminal Court, cuz, gee, people like Henry Kissinger might get put on trial and we all know he was just an American hero who only ordered people killed if democracy and freedom and American economic and political interests (which are all synonymous, by the way) would benefit."
Yes, the Chinese communists are a bunch of arsewipes who've performed no shortage of atrocities in Tibet and in Tiannamein Square and against the Falun Gong people. They supported those lovely folks in North Korea who tried to invade the South, not to mention those lovelable Khmer Rouge sorts. But this isn't good vs. evil. This is American interests versus Chinese ones. Entrenching oneself in the belief that your interests are the only ones that can be allowed to triumph and that you are justified in using force to make that so is as morally reprehensible as it gets.
The US spent thirty years saying "The USSR are evil people who must be destroyed" and aside from nearly blowing the world to kingdom come a couple of times, it was only through detente that the Cold War got going on the tracks to resolution.
As Daryus are quite accurately pointed out, the brewing US/China cold war, which was en route to detente before it became a full-on COld War, notwithstanding a rather misaimed NATO bomb or two, is now again well on-track thanks largely to Shrub's decision to start playing hardball for political points. (I await the inevitable comment about Clinton the traitorous bastard letting the pinko scum into the Pentagon basement and all the "solid" evidence of this happening). Except unlike the US/USSR one, this Cold War's clearly a military mismatch. And the fact that this is a mismatch will force the Chinese to try and alleviate that very fact. M.A.D. is still the only effective way to save one's ass from a nuclear strike, and if China thinks that the Americans are likely to do so, then they will develop the capability to do the same back at the US. If the US puts up an NMD, China'll just build more missiles. And faster than Bush can mispronounce "proliferation," we have a rather bad situation. It was the USSR's military inferiority to the Atomically-armed Americans that led to their stonghandedness in Eastern Europe. Mismatches are baaaad.
So, lessons to be learned? Even if the guy across the street is really nasty old sort, standing on one's lawn and screaming across the street that he's a fuckheaded shit-for-brains is unlikely to do much to alleviate the situation, nor is driving one's pickup across the street and spinning doughnuts on his lawn.
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You'll also notice their consistant, blatant agression toward the Republic of China, a country which is a major trading partner of ours.
By the way, who else thinks that Saddamn Hussein would be likely to say the following:
"One does not reconcile with evil people in control of the most powerful military on the planet and the ability to nuke any city anywhere, and who have no conscience. One destroys them." I wonder what country he'd be referring to, though?
[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
You wanna talk about the Chinese and the FACT that every nation puts its own self-interests ahead of all others (and those who say they aren't are the ones you have to watch, because they're LYING through their TEETH), then go start another discussion.
*Boxleitnerspeak* GET THE HELL OUT OF MY THREAD!
Sieg: RE; The ABC Special...
what they don't tell you is that the parents were there with their kids during the interviews, and raised ZERO objections at the time, and for a considerable time afterwards. They were all fine with it, and signed the releases and everything.
It wasn't until AFTER those parents were harassed by some environmentalists that they pulled their kids' interview.
[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: First of Two ]
Watch the program.
Here's another tidbit that I just picked up the other day.
It's true that some 1400 scientists signed a petition urging Congress to adopt the Kyoto accords.
What isn't commonly reported is that 17,000 OTHER scientists signed a petition urging congress NOT to, because they believed Kyoto was bad science.
Let me say that again, just in case you think I made a typo...
1,400 yes.
17,000 no.
I wouldn't gamble a trillion dollars on that, would you?
[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: First of Two ]
Incidentally, in case you didn't believe me about the roughly 17,000, here's a link to a partial list. I'd love to see someone try to deride ALL these people as right-wing kooks...
AND a link to another study.
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm
[ July 03, 2001: Message edited by: First of Two ]
They were interviewed shortly after one of these 'green earth' presentations. The cameras also filmed the kids marching around the schools and shouting slogans...
I showed some reluctance to accepting all of it at face value for that reason plus the fact that he was forced to apologize for a report he did last year where he cited data from an experiment that was never done. I also have a bit of bias against him because some of his reports of the past have struck me as being very whiney and not containing a good deal of substance.
I did not get to see all of the news report, but the parts of the report that I did watch I do agree were well done. Quite a few of the issues that he raised I agree with. Just as one example, the teaching of environmental studies in elementary school has moved towards being more propagandic than educational. I know this first hand because in my day (about 10 to 12 years ago), nuclear power was considered a good and viable alternate source of energy. Nowadays, it's view with almost the same villany that fossil fuels have been branded with.
The newest issue of Popular Science includes an article on what are said to be meltdown-proof reactors. I haven't read it yet, but "Ah aim to."
The way I see it, our best hopes lie with fusion, or perhaps even anti-matter, technology to carry us through the 21st century - approximately 5 decades remain, and I wish governments would realise the just how dire our predicament is.
It's the final countdown...
Apparently, fusion is a hard process to maintain and control because of the massive amounts of heat and the powerful magnetic fields needed. I think fusion is the best of the nuclear alternatives because of its using hydrogen as its reactant. Of course, helium is the by-product, and there's only so much of the stuff we can inhale to do funky voices.
That is the much better alternative then having lots of used uranium lying somewhere taking space. I was told that this process can save as much as 90% of space and is also environmentally safer than storing used uranium.
Another article debates the need for nuclear power (conventional fission). You've probably heard most of that debate before, but here's a part I found interesting:
"A particularly promising line of research, which is being pioneered by the Nobel-prize winning physicist Carlo Rubbia and others, is into reactors that depend on spallation neutrons from a proton accelerator. The protons hit a target of a heavy metal, such as tungsten, producing a shower of neutrons that go into a sub-critical reactor assembly. This makes the reactor go critical, thereby generating power. Such reactors are easily controlled because the reaction stops as soon as the accelerator is switched off. The neutron fluxes are also so high that the radioactive wastes can be burnt inside the reactor. These are both highly desirable environmental features."
Burning the radioactive waste inside the reactor seems like a good thing to me.
On a similar issue, people might be interested in NASA's investigations into nuclear propulsion (for launching).
And now I'd like to mention how the "corporation slave" is sticking it to a certain megacorporation by dredging the Hudson for PCB's and making sure that they (the corporation) get the bill for it.
2) Never trust a guy by the name of Hoffa 
3) The Environmentalists claim that the 2000 Acres proposed can mean a network of drilling sites that are scattered about the ANWR. That has the potential to cause more problems than if the 2000 acres is limited to one area. I may be wrong though. Think of a bunch of small explosives strategically placed around a ship compared to one large explosive confined to one area of the ship.
Maybe we ought to play the divide-and-conquor game, like they do with the American people in general...
Apparently, in Omega's world, the GOP has no special interest groups either.
And it's reassuring to know that you're still waiting for Government Shock Troops to bang on your door and fill you with lead.
Actually, I'm kind of looking forward to that.
Of course, it'll probably be members of the far-right wing militia members who probably cheered when the Federal office building in Oklahoma blew up.
But, then, hey.
Much like the Republican party?
They are supported by:
- the Canadian Branch of the NRA
- Canadian Federation of Taxpayers
- Canadian Federation of Business
- More Business Groups
- Various right-wing groups
- Pro-Life Alliance
- Various Religious groups
Name one of these which is not considered to be a Special Interest group. After all, I'm pretty sure that the Republicans have their equivalents in the US.
quote:
Quite possible
Well, see? Why not just say that all political parties have their own special interests to deal with ... ?