Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Rethinking our stance

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Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

So I'm reading the 4th Arkady Renko book by Martin Cruz Smith, & it's set in Havana, Cuba. As I read it, it talks a lot about Cuba being the last true home of the Revolution, how it's still frozen in the late 50s, how the Russians are hated more than Americans.

Should we drop the embargo? It DOES seem rather pointless now, especially given China's Most Favored Nation trade status. As I understand it, the major obstacle to this is the Cuba Libre folks down in Miami who despise Castro. And speaking of :::moves right hand in a swift stroking movement from chin downward::: Him, how do you think the Cubans & the US government will react when he dies? Last I heard, Raul was set to be his successor, but ALSO last I heard, Raul's health was slightly better than Brezhnev's.

I personally rather like El Jefe. He seems to bee a fairly cool guy. I read a very lengthy Playboy interview with him from August 1985 (in which half the fun was hearing the story surrounding how the interview was gotten & what the interviewer needed to go through to finally get it & to :::moves hand in downward motion again::: Him) & he was very coherent, very calm, cool, collected, & logical...& proud.

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

Huhhuhhuhuh..you sed playboy1!! teh boobz! hehhehehhe!!11!

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

Yes, that's how Casey O'Dell & Kurt Schweder reacted when they say me reading the interview with John Delorean in study hall one day. Also how Bryan Tomek & Andy Paxson acted when they saw me reading the Fidel one as well.

FOCUS.

Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :

Maybe you could lay off Canadian Companies that deal with Cuba too. I don't think you will stop the stupid embargo on Cuba untill two things happen
1) Castro dies.
2) All of the people who lost land or wealth during the revolution die.
It's about time that the American government accepted the fact that Castro kicked out your puppet government and it's time to move on. I wonder how many americans know that after the revolution Castro came to the US for help to try and rebuild but was turned down because the US government was still pissed off that their puppet was ousted. Castro had nowhere else to turn at the time, as the world was so ridgidly divided between Communist and capitalist so he went to the USSR for help. Thus creating the communist state off your border that has lead to years of poverty in that country as well as almost plunging the world into nuclear war.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Far as I'm concerned, we should leave the embargo in place until the country shapes up. But then, I think we should do the exact same thing to China and every other repressive government in the world.

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

But the country CAN'T really "shape up." It doesn't have the funds. I mean, we're on this whole savior of the world kick, yet we're also like the neighbors next door who invite people for a party & lock the kids in the basement so they're not embarrassed.

Interestingly enough, I just read today that yet another Cuban concession on the road for aid was turned down in favor of continuance of the embargo. This thing seems to have the scent of one of those "it's the way it's always been" deals.

Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :

Omega, you seem to be the champion of religious beliefs here and yet you show no mercy to the nation beside you. What happened to helping your brothers, turn the other cheek and all that other stuff. Your policy of embargo, or repression has not worked to help the Cubans so far maybe it is time to turn to your religious teachings and actually try to help these people instead of repressing them.

[ November 30, 2001: Message edited by: Grokca ]

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

The obvious answer to that is 'we're not repressing them. Fidel is.'

It's not OUR trade embargos, or lack thereof, that lead to repression, it's the governments in charge.

It doesn't take scads of money to have a revolution, as history has conclusively demonstrated from Europe to the Americas to the Middle and Far East.

Cuba knows what it would take to end the embargo. Cuba won't do it. Too bad for Cuba.

Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :

You don't call a 40 year pointless trade embargo just because they bloodied your nose repressing. What about fining and freezing the assets of foreign countries that deal with them. Your embargo has nothing to do with Castro repressing his people, if it did you wouldn't trade with 1/2 the midddle eastern countries, African countries,China, South Korea and the list goes on and on. This is just a personal thing because old senators like Jesse Helms lost stuff back then and they want revenge on Castro because he had the nerve to kick out your puppet.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Nope, don't care.

Listen. You wanna play in the US, you play by the US's rules. You don't like our rules, pick up your ball and go home.

Given the choice between trading with us and trading with Cuba, most people will, wisely, pick us.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

quote:
What happened to helping your brothers, turn the other cheek and all that other stuff.

The quick answer is that Omega is a Christian only when it's convenient. Whenever something comes up he oh so easily ignores the "teachings" he claims to cherish and defends it by saying "its the best way" (even if it violates the supposed "way of God" he preaches about). One of the many reasons why he isn't taken seriously.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

The quick answer is that Omega is a Christian only when it's convenient. Whenever something comes up he oh so easily ignores the "teachings" he claims to cherish and defends it by saying "its the best way" (even if it violates the supposed "way of God" he preaches about).

OK, let me get this straight: you are saying that I am a hypocrite because it can be logically deduced from my God's teachings that we should lift the embargo on Cuba. You might have a point, IF such a thing could be logically deduced, but since it can't be...

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Uh, not neccessarily. I'm remembering all the threads when its been pointed out to you that the stance you're taking is contray to the Bible, and you've defended it by saying "there's no better way."

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

In other words, he's abandoned logic in favor of an ad-hominem ("my opponent is a hypocrite, and he's MEAN, too!") attack. Again.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

quote:
my opponent is a hypocrite, and he's MEAN, too!"

Who, Omega?

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

STOP IT. Don't MAKE me spank you BOTH.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Hey, I might enjoy that.

Or not.

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

I seem to recall that we went round and round on this Cuba thing more than once.

It's such a juvenile policy. We'll do just about anything in the name of national interest including giving money and arms to dictators around the world to trading with about every other communist country.

But when it comes to Cuba, we say no. You made us angry back in the cold war....you stay in isolation.

Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :

OK, let me get this straight: you are saying that I am a hypocrite because it can be logically deduced from my God's teachings that we should lift the embargo on Cuba. You might have a point, IF such a thing could be logically deduced, but since it can't be...

Let me attempt to logically deduce this using some bible quotations

[Prov 3:29.7] Do not plan evil against your neighbor who dwells trustingly beside you

[Lev 19:13.6] "You shall not oppress your neighbor or rob him

[Mark 12:31.9] The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

[Mat 19:19.11] Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

And the parable that most of us were taught as children

[Luke 10:29.14] But he, desiring to justify himself, said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" [Luke 10:30] Jesus replied, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among robbers, who stripped him and beat him, and departed, leaving him half dead. [Luke 10:31] Now by chance a priest was going down that road; and when he saw him he passed by on the other side. [Luke 10:32] So likewise a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. [Luke 10:33] But a Samaritan, as he journeyed, came to where he was; and when he saw him, he had compassion, [Luke 10:34] and went to him and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; then he set him on his own beast and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. [Luke 10:35] And the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper, saying, `Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, I will repay you when I come back.' [Luke 10:36] Which of these three, do you think, proved neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?" [Luke 10:37] He said, "The one who showed mercy on him." And Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise."
And this story is particularly interesting in this situation as the US is not only ignoring the plight of their neighbours you are actively trying to stop others from trading with them.

And lastly one about trade

[Lev 25:14.12] And if you sell to your neighbor or buy from your neighbor, you shall not wrong one another.

I think these passages clearly outline what stance should be taken in this matter

Posted by targetemployee (Member # 217) on :

I am pro-Cuban, pro-Castro. I think he has done a good job of running his country.

The argument that I often hear for the continuation of the embargo is human rights. I believe this argument to be laughable, especially in the light of our country's human rights record. Our country has one of the worst human rights records in the world. Rf. our jails. However, since we have a powerful and deadly military force, we can preach one way, do another way. Cuba is a victim of this skewed perspective.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

My best friend from high school is Cuban, his grandparents managed to escape back in the late fifties or early sixties. So I may have been influenced by the "adventure" stories I've heard about their smuggling medicine through airports and what-not to assist their relatives still in-country.

I'm anti-Castro, but I don't see how our embargo has done anything to remove him from power, so I'm anti-U.S. Cuban policy (and yes, this includes everything from Clinton's order to ship escapees back to Guantamano to the embargo).

Besides, no embargo = Cuban cigars. That's a good thing.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Uh...some of your points are valid, sure. USA != perfect and all.

But, um, there are worse prisons. Much worse.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

As long as our jails continue to have free excercise rooms, air conditioning, and television, and my apartment doesn't, I will spit in the eye of anybody who tells me that US jails are nasty.

But to answer Grocka, Cuba is NOT our "neighbor." Neighbor, in the sense that it meant when that sentence was written, meant a LOT more than 'the guy next door.' And it still does.

The guy who lives next door and doesn't bother you and you don't bother him, and he pulls for you when you're down, and you pull for him when he's down, he's your neighbor.

The guy who lives next door who wants you dead, he's not your neighbor. The guy who puts flaming bags of poop on your doorstep, he's not your neighbor.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

quote:
my apartment doesn't, I will spit in the eye of anybody who tells me that US jails are nasty.

So, your apartment has a big, oddly affectionate biker named "Bob" who has taken you for his bitch? Wow.

You know, most apartment complexes have open exercise rooms open to residents. The one I left over the summer also had a pool. I've never seen an apartment complex that doesn't offer air-conditioning, you weren't very demanding, were ya'? You don't own a TV? Cool in a 'too bad you can't watch Enterprise' but oh well kind of way.

Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :

First of two, It was the US's policies which cause this problem in the first place. First you set up a puppet government to rape the place and then when someone kicks your puppet out and denounces you you call him the hatemonger. And as for trying to kill you, the US has now become friends of the russian government that for years openly fought you on all fronts. The Cuban government has never invaded your territory or fought openly with you, except when you have attacked them. As for the Cuban Missle crisis, Castro had no real choice in the matter as USSR was the only nation that would give them aide and this was a condition for that aide. If you can make friends with the russians why not the Cubans.
The russians have done more harm to your country over the years than the Cubans ever did or could.
Still sounds like a case of sour grapes to me.

Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :

And first of two here is the difinition of neighbor, you will note that it refers to a fellow human being, most likely the meaning refered to in the bible

neigh�bor [n�ybr ] noun (plural neigh�bors)

1. somebody living nearby: somebody who lives or is located very close by, for example, on the same street or in the same town

2. something or somebody nearby: a person, place, or thing located next to another or very nearby (often used before a noun) the Spanish and their Portuguese neighbors

3. fellow human: a fellow human being (archaic or literary)

vti (past neigh�bored, past participle neigh�bored, present participle neigh�bor�ing, 3rd person present singular neigh�bors)
be close to something or somebody: to be very close to something or somebody

[Old English nahgebr , from nah "near" (source of English nigh) + gebr "dweller"]