I don't see many benefits arising out of this action by the White House. However, I do see retribution against the Democrats and an unwavering loyalty to the corporations by the Administration.
The end result of this action I think will be a reduction in services by the government, the Democrats having less money, and the major labor unions on the defensive.
I was thinking of entering the federal government as a clerical worker. I was inticed by the great benefits package and the pension plans. There was also the patriotism in serving my country as a civil servant. Now, I am not so sure. It takes six months on average to get a federal job. What will the civil service be like in six months? Will the benefits be the same, or will they be like my work which is cutting back on benefits and programs for the workers?
I feel we live in uncertain times with an administration that is seemingly against the people both in and out of our country. I would like to keep an open mind on this administration, but every day I grow more worried. This is the first administration in my adult life that I don't trust completely.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Welcome to the wonderful world of privatised services!!
Also; you trusted a government ?!?! You must be crazy...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
And if you were, like, 120, that would be a damning indictment of those Washington fatcats.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
quote:There was also the patriotism in serving my country as a civil servant.
OK, Colin, you're not known for your sense of humour, but that was a joke, right?
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Well, he did include a smiley.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Well, it's either that or have the Federal government run like the city of Pittsburgh.
They're about to raise taxes AGAIN to pay for all the services that they could be contracting out for.
Here's an example where privatizing is better... seasonal jobs. You don't need to create a commission and fund it year-round, just to trim trees. (This is something Pittsburgh has actually done, btw.) You contract it out on an as-needed basis.
Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :
There are some areas where things should be privatized and some where it should not.
Things that can be privatized: - Parks Maintenance - Snow Removal - Garbage Collection - Cleaning Services Basically, anything that does not directly affect the operation of a Public service.
(In the last Toronto Strike, the Unions wanted wages comparable to Computer Programmers, plus job-for-life security which only I can dream of. I should have been a Garbageman. Why waste a ton of money on Tuition when you can make the same amount as a Garbageman? These issues went to Arbitration, and I'm not happy to say that the Arbitrator sided with the union)
Things that should NOT be privatized: - Transit (their wages need to be clipped though) - Public Utilities (hydro and water) - Firefighters - Domestic Security (Police, Military, etc).
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Quite frankly, I'd rather have on-time garbage removal and snow-free streets than version 1.5.1 of Updater Prime. I can live just fine without new software for months at a time. I think you have an overinflated sense of the importance of your career. I can't see why I should pay programmers anything more than minimum wage to spew out line after line of buggy code when there are armies of brainy schoolkids willing to do the same thing for free.
I hyperbolize, but consider: Without people working very hard to keep my roads free and clear I would get almost no value whatsoever out of my days. At the same time, considering the side effects that Office XP has had on my computer, I'd say its value is actually negative. (And yet my options are more or less limited to it, though this is largely my fault, all things considered.)
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
"This is an effort to get the best deal for the taxpayers and the best service for the government, for the citizens,"
And what about the citizens and taxpayers that get laid off when the private corporations take over? I doubt that they'll all get to keep thier jobs...
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
quote: I can't see why I should pay programmers anything more than minimum wage to spew out line after line of buggy code when there are armies of brainy schoolkids willing to do the same thing for free.
You could say the same thing about many, many professions, though I admit trashing programmers is a good choice.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
I dunno, its my experience that those armies of brainy schoolkids typically want money just as much, if not more than the rest of us. If not to pay for tuition, than for the latest pop culture items or entertainment.
For all the greatness of the open-source software, I really doubt it will ever replace commercial software. While there's a certain "nerdy coolness" in programming Linux derviatives or the latest Mozilla release to fight against "the man." (i.e. Microsoft)... you'll hardly find the same monentary-less motivation for programming bank software or medical software.
Thats the crux of things, isn't it? In most cases you get what you paid for, and programming is hardly different. Business programming is where the money really is, not home users. The last thing you want, is for the bank to go down for a day...or the power management system for the province to crash, because they skimped a few dollars on salary costs.
Your mileage may vary.
Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Quite frankly, I'd rather have on-time garbage removal and snow-free streets than version 1.5.1 of Updater Prime. I can live just fine without new software for months at a time. I think you have an overinflated sense of the importance of your career. I can't see why I should pay programmers anything more than minimum wage to spew out line after line of buggy code when there are armies of brainy schoolkids willing to do the same thing for free.
Listen to FTCA, Sol. And when you are finished from whatever post-secondary studies, and are starting out with your career, come to Toronto, and see if your wages are equivalent to a Garbageman. And when you are laid off from whatever job you have, look at the Garbageman and his jobs-for-life security. Jealous? Do they deserve such perks while we go from hell and back just to make the same wages?
It's not the overimportance of my career. It's the fact that I do not believe that such a job like a Garbageman should make as much as skilled jobs anywhere else in the city. Like Mucus said, you get what you paid for. And I did not shell out a ton of money to get paid the equivalent of a Garbageman.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Uh, I'm on the cusp of getting a bachelor's in philosophy, with my specific interests being philosophy of mind/philosophy of science. If I play my cards right, I may be able to use the degree as a kind of makeshift cup from which to drink from, assuming it is of a firm enough stock. For this honor I have paid many thousands of dollars.
But I didn't do it for the money.
And I stand by my position that garbage removal is simply more important to people than code. Oh, you might argue that the basic substrate of society is code these days, and I'd probably agree with you. But I doubt most people see it that way, and most people probably shouldn't. A college degree means only that an institution is convinced that you have learned something. Financial value simply doesn't enter into it. If you feel like you got screwed, then I'm deeply sorry. You have as much of a right to a job as anyone else. But wages are determined by the market.
Blue collar jobs should pay well because they are unpleasent, unpopular, back-breaking, and without them civilization would fall to pieces. Surely you should know this? I'm sure that Toronto without programmers looks a heck of a lot nicer than Toronto without garbagemen. Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
It is like the difference in pay between police/firefighters/emts and sports figures....
The unbalance is huge, and, if you see some one hurt or driving drunk you don't wish a baseball/basketball/football player were there... Or, mm, normally you wouldn't anyway....
So the gap is closing between computer geeks and what was once a slave-labour job.... GOOD!!!!!
Now, if we could talk Canada in to keeping there own trash, instead of fillinf St. Clair County's landfill I would be even happier....
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ritten: Now, if we could talk Canada in to keeping there own trash, instead of fillinf St. Clair County's landfill I would be even happier....
Didn't the US want to dump several loads of radioactive waste in northern Canada a few years back?
I remember there were A LOT of people concerned. To be honest, I wasn't exactly thrilled about it either...
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: You have as much of a right to a job as anyone else. But wages are determined by the market.
Blue collar jobs should pay well because they are unpleasent, unpopular, back-breaking, and without them civilization would fall to pieces. Surely you should know this? I'm sure that Toronto without programmers looks a heck of a lot nicer than Toronto without garbagemen.
I'd be more than willing to take that bet. Toronto went more than a week without garbage collection. I'd like to see it go a week without electricity.
The main reason why garbagemen, postal workers, etc. have inflated wages is because they have a strong union and can go on strike whenever they feel like. Unfortunately, the engineers and programmers that operate your power system aren't nearly as well organised, many of them are classified as emergency workers and can't go on strike in the first place, and if that wasn't bad enough, a fair number of them are bound by professional oaths.
Blackmailing society isn't a luxury that everyone has, until then....saying as a blanket rule that "wages are determined by the market" is a bit near-sighted.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: many of them are classified as emergency workers and can't go on strike in the first place
Unlike firefighters...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Unions are part of the market too.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Only if everyone has a union. The laws for what types of workers are allowed to unionise/hold strikes are dictated by politics, not by the market.
Actually, Wraith makes an interesting point. Someone should do research on how the wages for firefighters (which go through arbitration here, in lieu of strikes) compare to those of garbage collectors. That should be interesting.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
As a market share of about 1/6,900,000,000 of the total world market I would prefer firefighters, medical personel, police officers, and military personel not be able to strike.... Lawyers, okay, but some just can't....
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
What, are we up to seven billion already?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Governments are part of the market too.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
As of more or less right now, the U.S. Census Bureau estimates the global population to be 6,256,765,805.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Ah, now I understand your confusion. See, this isn't exactly what they mean when they say, "the government is for sale."
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Programmers supply our electricity now?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, it's all code, sure.
And I did not mean to indicate a foolishly cynical money=everything equation. Just that governments are part of the market.
Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :
Sol: Okay then. What about Accountants? Teachers? Journalists? All make about the same as Computer programmers. I am only saying that it is unfair for people who go for these and similar positions to find that they make just as much as garbagemen.
Ritten: A Garbageman is a job that requires little skill (other than driving, but hey, most people do drive). So a job that requires little skill should be paid as such. Just as patty flippers get paid minimum wage.
Mucus: Thank you for your defense. It is for these reasons I believe that Unions either should be banned or have their powers seriously limited. And yes, I believe Firefighters deserve more than Garbageman.
If you guys have watched Dilbert, you'll know that the Garbageman in the cartoon gets more respect than Dilbert does. And Dilbert gets the treatment shown in my sig and title.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I get the feeling you've never had a physically difficult job.
Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :
How much skill has to be invested to be a Garbageman? Very little. Yes, it's a physical Job. But so is the Army, Police, and Firefighters. And they have to go through a lot more than a simple garbageman. Even Warehouse Stock boys work more than a Garbageman does. And they get far less. Fair?
How much skill has to be invested to be a Computer Programmer, Accountant, Teacher, Journalist? Tuition fees and emotional blowout that is astronomical compared to a Garbageman.
The next time a Garbageman demands wages only you can dream of, don't come complaining here.
Posted by Solommagnus de Pym (Member # 239) on :
You are so right, and not jaded or prejudiced in any way, and we should all believe you becaue you are not incredibly demeaning or condescending and not seeing beyond your own situation and feel that your own situation covers all situations ever and we should not even consider alternatives and programmers are much more important, demanded and sexy than garbagemen.
Filthy garbagemen who have no schooling or "emotional trauma" from going to school.
They don't deserve to even get paid, lousy horsefuckers and hillbillies and uneducated pieces of shit they are.
If you want money and nothing but, maybe you should have saved the money for tuition and became a garbageman and retired after three years.
Because they make, what millions a year?
Comic strips are perhaps not the most accurate source of social information available.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Programmers supply our electricity now?
Distribute actually. I imagine you'd be surprised at just how centralised and dependent the (Ontario) power distribution system is on computers, CS graduates, and engineers. Control centres need power management systems, power management systems require telecommunications systems. Both are run by people graduating from guess what, CS or engineering.
I'd show you at work tommorow, but I imagine the security guards wouldn't like it.
In any case, I have no doubt power distribution would shut down in a matter of hours if every engineer and CS graduate decided to just pack it in. Unfortunately (or fortunately), the government agrees, hence the laws prohibiting strikes.
Now, this leads to a part that everybody should understand. If one group can threaten to strike, and another cannot, then obviously the playing field is unbalanced. Factor in the fact that fact that power distribution in Ontario is still a monopoly (with no plans to change), then the rules of a free market definitely don't apply. Government regulation does not, a free market make.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Magnus, that was beautiful....
Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :
Pym, so I was overexaggerating.
Other cities pay their garbageman the average which is around $45K/year. Toronto pays theirs $65K/year. And the garbagemen wanted more in the last strike. $45K I can live with. $65K is overkill.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Too bad you don't make the call. Your democratically-elected municipal government (wacko mayor and all) decided that garbagemen were worth $65k. If public sentiment was demanding that they be paid less, it would have been the city's perogative to hold firm. They didn't, and from what I recall of the garbage strike, this was what Joe Taxpayer wanted.
(And I wouldn't cite teachers and journalists who are paid the same as garbagemen as somehow being "victimized" by the union system. They're unionized, too, in most every case. The market has simply set all three as having roughly the same worth to society and there's absolutely nothing unfair about that.)
There's also, to the best of my knowledge, no legislation that prevents anyone from forming a union (speaking in terms of Canada here.) The computer programmers who keep the nuclear reactor's core maintenance software bug-free are more than welcome to form a union, and it would be discriminatory if they couldn't. What they mightn't be able to do is strike. Now, essential services legislation doesn't block unions, it just simply means that instead of striking, you and your employer (usually the government) is forced to submit to a binding arbitration process, and groups that fall under this requirement are fairly narrowly defined by legislation. The RCMP, for instance, operate under a collective contract and are generally quite happy with what they make, but you never see them walking picket lines. You can make the argument that city sanitation should be included under this umbrella, but that's a differnt argument than the one you're making.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
A union that can't go on strike is a union that has no teeth.
Besides, this entire problem can be circumvented by keeping public works run by the government.
Privatization doesn't work, except on non-essential services. But sometimes even then, unless we're talking about something like Fot's tree trimming example, you're on your way to that dreadful "slippery slope" ethical and moral quagmires are always said to be on...except privatization throws corporate economics into the mix, as well.
The reason why privatization doesn't work is simple: the private sector can't keep the costs down, because they won't put price caps on things. And even if they could, do you believe they would?
The entire idea of privatization comes from the Thatcher years, and Reagonomics. It doesn't matter that every time/place it's been used, its done the *exact opposite* of what they claimed it would do...they're going to use it anyway. It's so ingrained as infallible policy in the West now, that any objection to it's continued implementation is met with derision, and scorn.
Like that crowd of several thousand protesting the G8 in Ecuador. What were they complaining about? To hear Faux News tell the tale, they're practically a bunch of Luddites. No, they're ALMOST Communists. Stupid bastards.
They didn't like the fact that the price of cooking gas had risen by 60 percent virtually overnight. Big Babies. Their version of governmental Energas had gotten privatized due to loan requirements imposed by the World Bank.
So it was that Ecuador, a member of OPEC for chrissakes, had a 60 percent raise in the price of COOKING GAS. Ecuador. More Oil than Texas. For an Ecuadorian to pay that much for cooking gas is equivalent to Americans paying ten dollars for a Mcdonald's Jr. Cheeseburger. It's unthinkable.
But as soon as you privatize a sector that used to have such things as "price caps" and "regulation" you get things like "inflated cost" and "appalling inefficency".
So maybe those beatnik/hippie kids protesting the G8 in Seattle weren't just spoiled white college kids, protesting for lack of anything better to do. Maybe they had a point.
The Brits, back in the day, used to pay less for electricty per unit of population than citizens of the United States did. Dirt cheap, in other words. Then Thatcher came along with her vast dildo of globalization, and now consumers pay 70 percent more per unit than us whiny Americans.
Same thing with the water works in Britain: after privatizing, they pay 60 percent more than the same service in the US, where regulation still holds.
Gas costs 250 percent more there than here.
Yeah, it works to the benefit of the public, all right. Bush is a fucking genius.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
The thing is, I live in BC, where we have a publically-owned electricity monopoly that, *gasp,* manages to provide us with some of the cheapest electricity in the world. And yet, our ideologue wankers in government are convinced things will be oh so much better with "market-oriented reform." Right. So we move from a system where power is dirt cheap and any electricity profits get plowed into government coffers to pay for evil things like new roads or health care to the same model that, ahem, failed spectacularly in California, failed spectacularly in Alberta, and is presently failing spectacularly here in Ontario.
The mantra of privatized-is-inherently-better, especially in the face of two decades of empirical evidence to the contrary, is one of Western society's biggest jokes. Only it isn't funny.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
empirical just isn't good enough anymore.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
So you haven't had a physically demanding and dull job ever then, Tahna?
Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :
Oh yes I have. And I know damn well that you get as much as what you work for.
I do find that question to be irrelevant though. And believe me, half the population of Toronto are calling these garbagemen "overpaid wussies". Those same people are criticizing the Union for making these "overpaid wussies", as well as the city for letting the union get away with it.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
Eh?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
What was the job?
Posted by Daryus Aden (Member # 12) on :
Garbagemen getting paid $65 000 p.a.
I think I am in the wrong line of work.
Posted by Tahna Los (Member # 33) on :
Warehouse Clerk. Getting items from racks (some large, some small) to be packed. 1 month job. Pay is decent, $9/hour. Warehouse head makes around $48K/year. Around the time I worked for him was when the garbagemen (among others) were threatening strike. He didn't like the idea of Garbagemen making $17K more a year when he does more work than they do. And no, we were not unionized, though no one thought there was a problem with that.
I don't see how any of this is relevant though when there are a lot of other people in Toronto who think the same way.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Now, I am not so sure. It takes six months on average to get a federal job. What will the civil service be like in six months? Will the benefits be the same, or will they be like my work which is cutting back on benefits and programs for the workers?