quote: Rep. Ginny Brown-Waite, R-Brooksville, plans to introduce a bill today proposing that the families of the thousands of soldiers, sailors and airmen buried in France and Belgium be allowed to dig up their remains and have them shipped home.
"The remains of our brave servicemen should be buried in patriotic soil, not in a country that has turned its back on the United States and on the memory of Americans who fought and died there," Brown-Waite said.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I wonder if the French will demand the return of the interned French dead buried on American soil.
Y'know, when France helped liberate us from England.
Oh, wait, I forgot. France never did anything for us. Ever!
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
"...But why Albania?" "Why NOT Albania?" "But what did they ever do to us?" "What did they ever do FOR us? What do you know about Albania?" "...Nothing." "Exactly. They're shifty, unreliable, can't be trusted."
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
Why do I think that all this fuss over the French is too overdone?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
because it is
heres the deal. the US is a huge superpower, and a civilized country that is part of a larger picture of the international culture. France is an old power, a civilized country that is part of the larger picture of international culture. Iraq, a shitty little dictatorship that should be shaping up and trying to make its way as a cooperative player in the world order rather than promoting ages old fundamentalist ethnic and elitist repression has managed to create a division between several superior powers simply by existing.
does anyone else see the problem? the UN could quickly and efficiently bring Iraq to its knees and bring about change, but instead the US is trying to force the hand of all the countries involved, essentially weakening the larger whole into a bunch of smaller pieces no bigger than Iraq itself.
The funny thing is, every action that foments discord between civilized powers actually gives more power to bankrupt little piss-ants like Iraq and other "Axis of Evil" powers, and the terrorists too. Basically, by feuding with our own allies and bringing them (and ourselves) down several levels of civility, we are letting terrorists win. (To phrase that in true 'freedom fries' wording)..
but hey, its easier than trying to do things the civilized way, right?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The weight of history on your nation's shoulders makes for an excellent weapon when you drop it on the toes of the opponent. Provided you have the drop on him. It helps to stand on a pedestal.
But "nations" in practice tend to have a lifetime of something like half a century at the very most. France today is barely a second cousin to the France of WWII, and wouldn't recognize the France of 1770s-80s even if it French-kissed the modern one. The US is about fifteen months old now, having replaced a predecessor nation that was perhaps a decade old at the time.
It is pretty silly to think in terms of "national debt of history" in this reality.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't think I can agree with your assessment there, Timo. While it is certainly very descriptive, I don't think it reflects how anyone involved is actually thinking.
I can't speak for France, but in the U.S. civics courses are taught in such a way that it sounds decidedly odd to the American ear (if I may be permitted to make the generalization) to speak of "governments" changing within a nation as being a normal, everyday practice. Truth or not, the emphasis here is on governmental continuity, and the most you'll get anyone to admit to is that administrations change. (Here I'm disregarding those elements of society who think that the U.S. was secretly annexed by the Trilateral Commission, or who hold similar conspiracy theories.)
More than that, I suspect if you ask any French citizen how old their nation is, they are likely to forget about governments altogether and go back to some formative cultural moment. Nations are more than their leadership, after all, and cultures do not simply vanish only to be replaced by totally new and rootless ones.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
But is this "continuing nation" anything more than a collection of historical cliches? Does it not serve as mere backdrop to the political or social entity that is making all these decisions from its modern and pragmatic starting points?
The heritage of history may feature in decisions, yes. But only selectively so. France currently isn't building on its heritage of religious intolerance in the 1500s-1600s, or its triumph against Musim aggression half a millennium earlier. Germany OTOH is very much minding its villainly role 50 years ago and not, say, referring to its highly successful policy of forcible unification 100-150 years earlier. It's all pick and choose, and the pickings may change within a timespan of weeks rather than generations.
For many nations, there also comes a moment of rebirth when the glorious past is actively dismissed and a new start emphasized. "Year Zero" coincided with 1989-91 for many. And with 1945 before that. And 1919, and 1871, and 1867, and 1848... Later on, the nation may return to honoring its past, like Germany and Japan are likely to do soon enough. But that again only represents another rebirth.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
"The remains of our brave servicemen should be buried in patriotic soil, not in a country that has turned its back on the United States and on the memory of Americans who fought and died there," Brown-Waite said.
Such impudence, such false melodrama. Shik's right, this is starting to reek of Dog-wagging. Petty vote-snatching.
How would Spock put it? Typical of human pride and egocentricity to assume those patriotic servicemen died for the US alone, not for the fate of the entire world.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Yes, that will CERTAINLY help mend the international relations! Good thinking! Have some Freedom Fries!
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
quote:Typical of human pride and egocentricity to assume those patriotic servicemen died for the US alone, not for the fate of the entire world.
Funny thing is, that's EXACTLY what the Europeans WOULD say, that the US got involved for it's own interests and never gave a damn about Europe, otherwise they'd have gotten involved much sooner (and most likely lost due to unpreparedness, thereby dooming Europe to Nazi rule, but that's beside their point.)
quote:UN could quickly and efficiently bring Iraq to its knees and bring about change
But won't.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
How the hell can soil be patriotic?
This is bloody idiotic; the whole thing is being blown way] out of proportion. Especially the 'Freedom fries' thing. It's petty and makes the US look bloody silly. If you want to rename them, call them chips!
As for the idea of national age and continuity: the basic idea in this country (as I understand from my Govt. and politics course is that the state (ie. UK or England, Scotland, Wales, NI) is constant and neutral (shown in civil service neutrality and neutrality of the head of state ie the monarch). In the US, due to the codefied constitution, the method of government doesn't really change as much as over here- the most recent change being the percieved presidential nature of the PM. i don't really know what date people would give for 'year zero'- 1066, 1603, 1688, 1707, 1801, etc, etc.
Oh, and the US did get involved to protect it's own interests. Or, at least that was the excuse. Remember, it wasn't that long after WWI and a lot of Americans didn't think they should have to go through something like that again for somewhere that was so far away. But it was not an American victory alone; our contribution, while smaller was significant, as was that of Australian, Canadian and other Imperial forces. Not to mention we would not have won without the USSR.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
""The remains of our brave servicemen should be buried in patriotic soil"
And it's that kind of thinking that started the second world war.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
This is getting more and more out of hand. first it's "Freedom Fries" then it's this. it's rediculious.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Has anyone come across anyone saying "Freedom Fries" in real life? Do people really say "Freedom Fries" with a straight face? Seriously, for great hilarity Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Never mind that. Think of the other possibilities. Freedom kissing, for example Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
quote:Originally posted by Da_bang80: This is getting more and more out of hand. first it's "Freedom Fries" then it's this. it's rediculious.
Actually, none of this is "new." The "renaming" of things started in WWI with "victory cabbage" for sauerkraut, and so forth, and the "reburying the American dead" started with something Truman said to shut up DeGaulle when the latter was being particularly obnoxious about the presence of US troops in France.
Americans lie to themselves and act like they won WWII singlehandedly... but so do the French. It's a conflict of arrogances that goes all the way back to the end of that war.
Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
You're actually arguing that this whole freedom fries thing isn't rediculious?
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
No, it's ridiculous (and so was that spelling of ridiculous.)
I'm just saying that it's not indicative of anything unusual. It's to be expected. Just as are the equally idiotic calls for a boycott of Texas I've been hearing lately from the retaliatory arm of the left.
[ March 17, 2003, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: First of Two ]
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I wonder if those jackasses who did the re-naming told their daughters "not to freedom kiss" on a first date.
In other news, I love Tina Fey.
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Typical of human pride and egocentricity to assume those patriotic servicemen died for the US alone, not for the fate of the entire world.
Funny thing is, that's EXACTLY what the Europeans WOULD say, that the US got involved for it's own interests and never gave a damn about Europe, otherwise they'd have gotten involved much sooner (and most likely lost due to unpreparedness, thereby dooming Europe to Nazi rule, but that's beside their point.)
You are right FOT the US did it completely out of the goodness of their souls. Damn I feel honoured just to be able to see your country from my house. If you will excuse me I think I have a tear in my eye.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Freedom kissing can lead to use of a Freedom tickler...
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
And then the use of French Genitalia.
Wait. I don't know how this game works.
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
"Actually, none of this is "new." The "renaming" of things started in WWI with "victory cabbage" for sauerkraut, and so forth, and the "reburying the American dead" started with something Truman said to shut up DeGaulle when the latter was being particularly obnoxious about the presence of US troops in France."
Yah, I saw that on TV, But it was called "Liberty Cabbage" you yank's are so wierd Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
And the hamburger was a Liberty Sandwich. Posted by Epoch (Member # 136) on :
Frankly the whole thing is getting out of hand. The point of calling them Freedom fries I believe is to show the world that the US doesn't need anything french to do what it wants. It is a gigantic Testosterone puffup puffup they hate that routine. Is it silly, you bet; is it pointless, damn straight; does it make the US look like the prick jock from every movie/TV show out there, yep. It looks like all of those things on a global level, however at this point the gov is not trying to impress the world populous. It is trying to maintain the backing of the citizens here.
While I believe that hitting Iraq now may not be the best thing, neither can we continue to sit around until he launches one of his missles. Regardless of what the average joe schmoe thinks of France we really do need their help on this matter.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
On the other hand it isn't quite as stupid as this.
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
Ouch, a little warning next time would be nice.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"When I explained what I'd done, the doctors and nurses laughed at me, and went out of their way to make me feel like a fool."
I find it difficult to believe that they had to go out of their ways at all.
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Has anyone come across anyone saying "Freedom Fries" in real life? Do people really say "Freedom Fries" with a straight face? Seriously, for great hilarity
Only someone making fun of them.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grokca: Ouch, a little warning next time would be nice.
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