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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jay the Obscure</b> <br /><small>Member # 19</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,10,19,56,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 10, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:56 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Something has been bothering me about the rambling, mendacious, often incoherent <a href="http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=28200" target="_blank">interview</a> Mr. Bush gave to Tim Russert on "Meet The Press" on Sunday. Well, to be honest, many things have been bugging me about it, but specifically during this interview, Mr. Bush repeatedly tried to explain his rationale for going to war with Iraq.<br /><br />In the process, he set the standards for war, that most terrible of human endevors, at an unacceptably low level.<br /><br />Mr. Russert asked Mr. Bush the following question:<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Russert: How do you respond to critics who say that you brought the nation to war under false pretenses?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You can read the whole rambling answer... difficult decision, Hussein bad, war on terror... but the part that bothered me most was this:<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">President Bush: But David Kay did report to the American people that Saddam had the capacity to make weapons. Saddam Hussein was dangerous with weapons. Saddam Hussein was dangerous with the ability to make weapons. He was a dangerous man in the dangerous part of the world.<br /><br />And I made the decision to go to the United Nations.<br /><br />By the way, quoting a lot of their data in other words, this is unaccounted for stockpiles that you thought he had because I don't think America can stand by and hope for the best from a madman, and I believe it is essential - I believe it is essential - that when we see a threat, we deal with those threats before they become imminent. It's too late if they become imminent. It's too late in this new kind of war, and so that's why I made the decision I made.<br /></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I think that there are two particular points to take from this answer.<br /><br />Point #1 � The story about the Iraqi WMD has changed AGAIN, gearing down from Hussein had them, to Hussein had programs, to Hussein simply had and alleged "ability to make weapons." Which is apparently enough.<br /><br />Mr. Bush repeated this talking point several times during the interview...<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">...There was no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein was a danger to America. [CROSSTALK]<br /><br />Russert: In what way?<br /><br />President Bush: Well, because he had the capacity to have a weapon, make a weapon....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And...<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Russert: But can you launch a preemptive war without iron clad, absolute intelligence that he had weapons of mass destruction?<br /><br />President Bush: Let me take a step back for a second and there is no such thing necessarily in a dictatorial regime of iron clad absolutely solid evidence. The evidence I had was the best possible evidence that he had a weapon.<br /><br />Russert: But it may have been wrong.<br /><br />President Bush: Well, but what wasn't wrong was the fact that he had the ability to make a weapon. That wasn't right.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And...<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">President Bush: It's essential that I explain this properly to the parents of those who lost their lives.<br /><br />Saddam Hussein was dangerous, and I'm not gonna leave him in power and trust a madman. He's a dangerous man. He had the ability to make weapons at the very minimum.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Talking points are important. One must always, at all times, without fail, follow the script. As a result, Mr. Bush used the word "madman" 6 times; "danger" or "dangerous" was used 17 times...in fact, the phrase "dangerous man" was used 3 times to describe Hussein; "terror" or "terrorists" got used 23 times. <br /><br />So, New Rationale For War #1 � "He had the ability to make weapons at the very minimum," thereby making Saddam Hussein a "grave and gathering threat." Enough apparently for hundreds of Americans and thousands of Iraqi's to die over, and apparently the only threat worthy of such action in this dangerous world...after the fall of Afghanistan that is.<br /><br />Point #2 � Is what really started me thinking because it lays out an incredibly irresponsible way to use military might as an arm of foreign policy.<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">... believe it is essential - that when we see a threat, we deal with those threats before they become imminent. It's too late if they become imminent.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To borrow from John Stewart, BWAAHH???<br /><br />If we take the late Iraq war as an example of this, Hussein was NOT an imminent threat, George Tenet of the CIA said his organization never characterized him as such.*<br /><br />Now we don't have to wait for a threat to actually BECOME a threat before we invade. That would be silly and dangerous. In fact, we can take anyone out at any time. Heck, we don't even really have time to wait for solid intelligence.<br /><br />Invade first, ask questions later.<br /><br />The implications of this policy are trememdous. In and of itself, it sets the standard for invasion and war almost low enough as to erase it.<br /><br />Another part of the interview got to me as well...Mr. Bush tries so scare us again, something this administration loves to do.**<br /><br />This time he brings out the nukes.<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I repeat to you what I strongly believe that inaction in Iraq would have emboldened Saddam Hussein. He could have developed a nuclear weapon over time I'm not saying immediately, but over time which would then have put us in what position? We would have been in a position of blackmail.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">He COULD have developed a nuclear weapon over time[.]??<br /><br />I COULD developed a nuclear weapon over time.<br /><br />Canada COULD developed a nuclear weapon over time.<br /><br />This is what passes for the practice of foreign policy in this administration. Can somebody tell me when the adults are going to take over?<br /><br />----<br /><br />* <a href="http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=488318" target="_blank">CIA denies claims that Iraq posed 'imminent' danger</a>.<br /><br />** They keep doing this kind of stuff, apparently with little regard to reality or proof.<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">WASHINGTON -- The White House stepped back from a high-profile assertion by President Bush, in his January 2002 State of the Union Address, that U.S. forces had uncovered evidence of a potential attack against an American nuclear facility.<br /><br />In the speech, Mr. Bush warned of a terrorist threat to the nation, saying that the U.S. had found "diagrams of American nuclear power plants" in Afghanistan.<br /><br />Coming just months after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks -- and as U.S. forces were on the hunt for al Qaeda in Afghanistan -- the statement was offered as evidence of the depth of antipathy among Islamic extremists, and of "the madness of the destruction they design."<br /><br />"Our discoveries in Afghanistan confirmed our worst fears," Mr. Bush told Congress and the nation in the televised speech. He said "we have found" diagrams of public water facilities, instructions on how to make chemical arms, maps of U.S. cities and descriptions of U.S. landmarks, in addition to the nuclear-plant plans.<br /><br />Monday night, the White House defended the warnings about Islamic extremist intentions, but said the concerns highlighted by Mr. Bush were based on intelligence developed before and after the Sept. 11 attacks, and that no plant diagrams were actually found in Afghanistan. "There's no additional basis for the language in the speech that we have found," a senior administration official said.<br /><br />~ It's a <i>Wall Stree Journal</i> article quoted on the <a href="http://atrios.blogspot.com/2004_02_08_atrios_archive.html#10764235822010735" target="_blank">Eschaton</a> weblog, because you have to be a subscriber to the <i>WSJ</i>, and I'm not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Oh, there's more that one could say...but who has the time.<br /> <br /> <small>[ February 10, 2004, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Jay the Obscure ]</small> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Grokca</b> <br /><small>Member # 722</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,10,20,8,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 10, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:08 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Talking points are important. One must always, at all times, without fail, follow the script. As a result, Mr. Bush used the word "madman" 6 times; "danger" or "dangerous" was used 17 times...in fact, the phrase "dangerous man" was used 3 times to describe Hussein; "terror" or "terrorists" got used 23 times. <br /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, it's one hell of a drinking game.<br /><br />Seriously though, with this attitude of Bushco, and according to the UN Charter, which I believe the US signed, it's hard to tell, then the US is guilty of exactly what they claim Hussain did when he attacked Kuwait. They have clearly broken the UN agreement to only attack a country that is either attacking you or you can prove that they are about to attack you. You cannot use the arguement that someday down the road maybe 10 years or maybe never, thay might blackmail you. These statements clearly show Bush to be a war criminal.<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Canada COULD developed a nuclear weapon over time.<br /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And Jay<br />Please don't start rumours like this, at least wait until the madman is out of the whitehouse. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Omega</b> <br /><small>Member # 91</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,10,20,44,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 10, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:44 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <i>They have clearly broken the UN agreement to only attack a country that is either attacking you or you can prove that they are about to attack you.</i><br /><br />The counter-argument being that a nation which is under post-war treaty obligations like Iraq was is not quite a soverign nation as understood by the UN charter. I'm not necessarily arguing it in this thread at this time, just saying that it IS arguable. On that question, actually, how does the UN charter deal with things that our intervention in Kosovo? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>PsyLiam</b> <br /><small>Member # 73</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,10,21,42,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 10, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:42 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Christ, what is it with Omega being almost-reasonable in these discussions recently? It's freakin' me out, man. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jay the Obscure</b> <br /><small>Member # 19</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,10,21,43,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 10, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:43 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> More...<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Bush at Sea<br />Does this war president have any idea what he's talking about?<br /><br />Going over the transcript of Tim Russert's interview with President Bush, a disturbing question comes to mind: Is the president telling lies and playing with semantics, or is he unaware of what's going on�including inside his own administration?<br /><br />Two sections of the interview particularly stand out in this regard: a) Bush's defense of the war in Iraq, despite his concession that Saddam Hussein did not possess weapons of mass destruction; and b) his views on the war in Vietnam.<br /><br />Russert asked Bush what he made of the recent comments by David Kay, who recently resigned as the CIA's chief weapons inspector, that Iraq did not have biological, chemical, or nuclear weapons after all. Bush replied:<br /><br />David Kay did report to the American people that Saddam Hussein had the capacity to make weapons. � There was no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein was a danger to America � because he had the capacity to have a weapon, make a weapon � and then let that weapon fall into the hands of a shadowy terrorist network. � He could have developed a nuclear weapon over time. I'm not saying immediately, but over time, which would then have put us in what position? We would have been in a position of blackmail. <br /><br />There are many remarkable things about this statement, but let us note just two.<br /><br />First, President Bush seems to be vastly enlarging his doctrine of pre-emptive warfare. This doctrine originally declared that the United States has the right to attack a hostile power that possesses weapons of mass destruction. The idea was that we must sometimes strike first, in order to prevent the other side from striking us. <br /><br />Now, however, the president is asserting a right to strike first not merely if a hostile power has deadly weapons or even if it is building such weapons, but also if it might build such weapons sometime in the future.<br /><br />The original doctrine, though controversial, at least stemmed from the logic of self-defense. Bush's expansion of the doctrine, as implied in his remarks to Tim Russert, does not.<br /><br />If no commentators have noted, or perhaps even noticed, this new spin on American military policy, it may be because they don't take Bush's unscripted remarks seriously. (It's just Bush, talking off the top of his head. No sense parsing the implications.) That in itself is quite a commentary on this president. But it's not clear that these particular remarks were unscripted. Bush used the same phrase�"a capacity to make a weapon"�three times; it was almost certainly a part of his brief. Either the statement means something�that we now reserve the right to wage pre-emptive war on a hostile power that has the mere capacity to make weapons of mass destruction�or it's empty blather. It's unclear which would be more unsettling.<br /><br />Second, unless the president is defining the "capacity to make a weapon" in an extremely loose sense, David Kay said nothing of the sort. When Kay said he'd concluded that Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction in the months leading up to the war, he elaborated with this comment: "We don't find the people, the documents, or the physical plants that you would expect to find if the production was going on."<br /><br />No people, no documents, no physical plants�it doesn't sound like much "capacity."<br /><br />On chemical weapons in particular, Kay said that Iraq's infrastructure was destroyed by President Clinton's air strikes in 1998. On biological weapons, Kay noted in his written report last October that his team had found laboratories that "may have engaged in research." On nuclear weapons, the report cited only "small and unsophisticated research initiatives � that could be useful in developing a weapons-related science base for the long term." (Italics added.)<br /><br /><br />Fred Kaplan, <a href="http://slate.msn.com/id/2095184/" target="_blank">Slate</a> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Lee</b> <br /><small>Member # 393</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,11,4,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 11, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:29 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> What did he say about Vietnam? Since it looks like he'll be going up against a Viet Vet. . . <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jay the Obscure</b> <br /><small>Member # 19</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,11,9,57,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 11, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:57 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Also worthy of note were Bush's comments on the war in Vietnam. Russert asked him whether he supported that war. Bush replied that he did, sort of. The president added:<br /><br />The thing about the Vietnam War that troubles me, as I look back, was it was a political war. We had politicians making military decisions, and it is a lesson that any president must learn, and that is to set the goal and the objective and allow the military to come up with the plans to achieve that objective. And those are essential lessons to be learned from the Vietnam War.<br /><br />This is the great conservative shibboleth about the Vietnam War�that we lost the war because Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, and to a lesser extent President Lyndon Johnson, put too many constraints on the generals, telling them which targets they could and could not hit. But it's very odd for George W. Bush to be reciting this case because the two wars he's commanded, in Afghanistan and Iraq, have been, in this sense, the most "political" wars in recent American history. <br /><br />While Bush himself may not have done much micromanaging of the war, his defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, not only helped pick targets, but rearranged the structure of the units sent into battle. In preparing for Iraq, he ordered the removal of several heavy-artillery battalions from Army divisions. In the weeks leading up to the invasion of Afghanistan, he rejected several war plans submitted by Gen. Tommy Franks, the commander of U.S. Central Command, until the general devised an unprecedented combination of troops and special operations commandos that conformed to Rumsfeld's concept of "military transformation" and smaller, lighter forces.<br /><br />The interesting thing about this blatant intrusion into the nuts and bolts of military planning is that Rumsfeld was right. With the advent of very precise "smart bombs," aerial drones with real-time video transmissions, and computerized command-control networks that allowed for much greater coordination between air forces and ground troops, the Army didn't need so much artillery; air power could break up enemy defenses in a way that, in an earlier era, only artillery could. Or at least Rumsfeld was right in the battlefield phase of the war. He should have paid more attention to his generals in planning how many troops would be needed after victory was declared. <br /><br />But the point here is that if civilian interference is "the thing about the Vietnam War that troubles" George W. Bush, why wasn't he troubled about the way his own wars were planned and fought, for better and for worse? Or has he ever really been troubled about the Vietnam War, back then or now? And was he aware of the intense internecine fighting between Rumsfeld and the Army over the war plans for Iraq? The main message that President Bush tried to send during his session with Russert was that he is a leader in command. "I'm a war president," he said at the start. "I make decisions here in the Oval Office on foreign policy matters with war on my mind." But in some of his remarks that followed, the president cast doubt on how much he's even in the loop.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">And Mr. Bush had pledged to release all his military records. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jason Abbadon</b> <br /><small>Member # 882</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,11,12,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 11, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:01 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> As to Iraq being an elegible target for military action under the UN charter: it's debatable.<br />Mainly because they were very clearly in violation of UN sanctions, so we really could have stomped in there sooner.<br /><br />But...<br /><br />If Bush really expects nyone to believe that we went after saddam because he "posed a threat of obtaining WMD" them we should certainly be gearing up to invade North Korea right now.<br /><br />And we arent. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Mucus</b> <br /><small>Member # 24</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,11,14,22,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 11, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:22 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well no.<br />IIRC,<br />They don't pose a threat of obtaining WMD.<br />They *have* obtained WMD. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Cartman</b> <br /><small>Member # 256</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,11,14,36,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 11, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:36 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Yes. Therefore North-Korea is now an imminent threat, and, as we all know, the US only deals with threats before they become imminent. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Omega</b> <br /><small>Member # 91</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,11,16,13,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 11, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:13 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Actually, Korea having nukes is questionable. An expert group that went came back saying they weren't convinced. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Cartman</b> <br /><small>Member # 256</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,11,16,38,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 11, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:38 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Of course, we also know how well the US listens to weapons experts. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Balaam Xumucane</b> <br /><small>Member # 419</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,11,18,44,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 11, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:44 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Experts, fuh. Who needs em?<br /><br />If only North Korea had more oil. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jason Abbadon</b> <br /><small>Member # 882</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,11,20,38,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 11, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:38 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Oddly, I heard on NPR yesterday that food relief organizations wont be able to feed more than half the estimated 6 million that will go hungry in the next eight months in North Korea.<br /><br />Really, Krazy Kim is doing a great job wiping out his own people without any US invasions or WMD's just by blowing all his country's cash on conventional weapons.<br /><br />He must have missed that last decade or two in the history of the USSR. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Saltah'na</b> <br /><small>Member # 33</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,11,22,48,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 11, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:48 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Omega:<br /><strong> Actually, Korea having nukes is questionable. An expert group that went came back saying they weren't convinced. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Same thing with Iraq, no? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jason Abbadon</b> <br /><small>Member # 882</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,11,22,56,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 11, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:56 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> To play Devil's Advocate:<br /><br />"Werent convinced" is a far cry from "definitely not".<br /><br />I'm not saying NK has them or not, but we've seen weapons inspectors get the run-around countless times in Iraq in the late 80's- early 90's.<br /><br />If Kim wanted to hide a nuke, he certainly could: really, anyone could as long as you bought it already made from somewhere else. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Omega</b> <br /><small>Member # 91</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,11,23,5,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 11, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:05 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, Korea was actively trying to prove it HAD nukes, and they didn't convince the nuclear dude. They have some mass of what appears to be refined plutonium, but whether they have critical mass is questionable, and they can't produce or refine all that much of the stuff. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TSN</b> <br /><small>Member # 31</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,11,23,43,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 11, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:43 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> So, if you want the US to leave you alone, all you have to do is scream "I have a nuclear bomb, and I want to blow up Americans with it!". Bush and Co. will respond "Yeah, right. Quit bothering us.".<br /><br />However, you should never say "I don't have nuclear weapons", because then the immediate response will be "You bastard! How dare you threaten the United States, Old Glory, and apple pie?! Die, scum!". <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Saltah'na</b> <br /><small>Member # 33</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,12,18,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 12, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:01 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I HAVE A HYPER NUCLEAR RADIOACTIVE DIRTY BOMB AIMED AT WASHINGTON. AND I DO NOT HAVE OIL.<br /><br />That oughta do it. Let's see how they react. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>AndrewR</b> <br /><small>Member # 44</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,12,18,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 12, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:29 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Saltah'na:<br /><strong> I HAVE A HYPER NUCLEAR RADIOACTIVE DIRTY BOMB AIMED AT WASHINGTON. AND I DO NOT HAVE OIL.<br /><br />That oughta do it. Let's see how they react. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The 'lidless eye' of the Echelon Network is now FIXED upon this board! <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Saltah'na</b> <br /><small>Member # 33</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,12,20,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 12, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:31 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> They are not supposed to react. After all, I don't have oil. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Tora Ziyal</b> <br /><small>Member # 53</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,13,0,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 13, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:26 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by AndrewR:<br /><strong> The 'lidless eye' of the Echelon Network is now FIXED upon this board! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Is that kind of like the eye of Sauron? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Ultra Magnus</b> <br /><small>Member # 239</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,13,1,43,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 13, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:43 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> That would be what he was going for, yes. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jason Abbadon</b> <br /><small>Member # 882</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,1,13,23,40,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">February 13, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:40 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Saltah'na:<br /><strong> They are not supposed to react. After all, I don't have oil. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, but <i>saying</i> you dont have oil only means you're <i>hiding</i> it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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