Although the current theory is a power surge of some kind.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
So official word seems to be a power surge and/or outage.
But there are some rumours of bombs and a double decker bus that has exploded...
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Seems to be terrorist related. National Grid says it has no record of a power surge. The bus explosion would seem to rule that out too.
Although there's still no real idea about what's going on.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
If it is, they ought to check their major-events-in-London-to-plant-bombs-at calendar again. LiveAid and Wimbledon were last week, and it's a bit on the early side for the Olympics.
Still, the explosion pattern sure seems intentional.
Posted by Doctor Jonas (Member # 481) on :
Six explosions... three dead people. But some France media outlets say 20.
And they checked fine. The G-8 summit is undergoing NOW, you know.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
And there probably was more security during Geldof Day and Wimbledon than during G8, when security was more focused on Gleneagles, or whatever the place is called.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Up to seven blasts now; Edgware Road, King's Cross, Liverpool Street, Russell Square, Aldgate East, Tavistock Square and Moorgate.
quote: The BBC's Frank Gardner said Arab sources said the blasts were probably the work of al-Qaeda.
London's police chief said traces of explosive had been found at one site.
Blair is leaving Gleneagles and coming down to London.
On the plus side people have been brewing tea for those in the streets so things'll probably be ok.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Traces of explosives have been found according to the London chief of police. So much for any power surge theories.
I guess the idea was to remind everyone up in Scotland they're still around. Cowards.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
From the sound of things, the objective seems to be to bring down the public transport network, rather than the objective in Madrid, which seems to have been to kill as many as possible. I'm still trying to contact all friends and family who work in town, but the mobile networks are a bit busy. Email is working. The emergency services seem to have been amazingly fast and efficent, thank god!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
They have said that the mobile network went down, either due to overuse, or that they may have shut it down as mobiles were used in Madrid as detonators.
Are you Brits/londoners on here ok?
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Good God...weren't we supposed to have defeated al-Qaeda?
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
I've got in touch with most of my friends in London and they all seem to be ok; the mobile network is down for calls but text messages are still getting through.
The number of explosions appears to have been reduced to four, with three occuring on the Underground, mostly between stations, which would account for the earlier reports of more.
And I'm going there next Tuesday. Guess I'll stick to Brighton, then.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
My blackberry was still receiving emails, but not calls, so I don't think they shut it down, although the tube lines where the bombs are the "cut and cover" ones quite close to the surface, they still have very poor phone coverage, and mobiles are unlikely to have been used. However, half the population of London would have ben ringing each other to say "I'm ok" , or "I'm going to be late for work" The message from the police is stay where you are, the tube network has been shut down, as have the major overground stations, and all buses have been withdrawn from Zone 1 (for public trasport, there are 6 charging zones, 1 being in the middle). Transport details here: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/ I can't imagine that amnyone in London is going to find it easy to get home tonight, I suggest looking for hotels and arange room sharing with collugues As it reopens, here are a few tube maps: http://map.tfl.gov.uk/map.asp http://map.tfl.gov.uk/realtime.asp (not currently working) http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/til/jsp/maps/tube.jsp Geographic tube map http://solo2.abac.com/themole/geo_tubemap.gif Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The chances of them striking the same place twice in a week are pretty much zero. But I can understand you being nervous.
I don't recall when (if ever) the entire underground network has been completely shut before. London is completely dependent on it's public transport network, so shutting it will have bought the place to a complete halt.
And some sort of Eurpean group with links to Al-Quaeda are claiming responsibilty.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
Looks like one on the bombs was on the Picaddily, which is a deep level "Yerkes" tube. Definablty no phone coverage.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
According to Reuters--quoting Sky News--45 people are dead and 1,000 injured. CNN and ABC say 40 people are dead and 300 injured.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Gawd! Just an hour and a half ago it was 2 people dead, 90 injured! 2 people too many dead.
So can someone explain (if they know) the explosions in the tube - was it ON the trains, in the tunnels or at the platforms? The bus explosion supposedly lifted the roof off of the bus!
Fucking gutless-wonders.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: Metropolitan Police Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick confirmed 33 people had died in the blasts on the Underground. He said it was not yet known how many died in the bus blast.
From the BBC Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
The train bombs were on the trains, they went off inside the tunnels. I can't imagine of anthing much more scary, especially on the deep level picadilly line. I just don't want to think about it. The bomb that went of near Edgware road station apparently managed to damage 2 nearby trains as well as the train the bomb was on. The double decker bus bomb blew apart the top deck, the picture on the BBC show bits of the sides of the top deck, the roof and most of the seats missing (top deck is lightweight, a routemaster can tilt at something like 35% before it will fall over, even with a full load up top). One (for want of a better word) fortunate thing there was the bus exploded next to the British Medical Association, so there were a lot of doctors on hand. They've estimated 33 people have died on the tube, but can't estimate how many died on the bus, which worries me.
The inital reports of a power surge was caused by the safteies cutting power, so showing a large reductions in power used at control stations
Some of the mainline overground stations are reopening, but no tube for the rest of the day. After they have inspected all of the tube trains plus all of the stations, they hope to open the lines which wern't damaged tomorrow. The lines that were damaged they hope to do shuttle services in the unaffected sections. Dockland Light railway has reopened.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
I got a response from my friends currently working in London and they are OK... one of them had stayed home and the other was on a train when all this happened (no idea which train, I guess it wasn't the underground).
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
I'm in the UK - Derbyshire (well away from the horribile events of today).
37 dead at last count: 7 at Liverpool Street Station 21 at King's Cross 5 at Edgware ? from the bus bomb (the top of it was split open from the blast - they even said there was blood splattered on the nearest building - the British Medical Association God that must have been horribile to see! We won't know for a while as they'll likely have to examine the pieces of the bodies! ) 4 more but I don't know where they lost their lives 37+ dead 45-100 seriously injured - loss of limbs, heart attacks, severe head injuries, etc. Anything from 300-800+ injured (minor): cuts, bruises, shock, etc.
I heard of this on the news this morning about 9:30 and watched it pretty much all day - so depressing and sad. Don't know anyone in London but it still got to me seeing all the walking wounded and hearing how everything happened.
I would like to salute the emergency services and the passersby who helped the injured - we're all proud of you guys and gals!
What a shame that it takes a disaster for us all to come together. Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
This is probably going to sound US-centric since I'm assuming that just because they're from the UK they are in London, but I've noticed Lee and MaGiC haven't posted in here. Does if either of them live or work in London, and does anyone know if either of them are all right?
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
3 million people use the tube everyday, millions use the buses. The total population of london is 7.5 million (not including the surrounding areas), out of a population of 60 million plus. My job allows me to work from home if needed, and save for the disruption, I would use the underground and buses today. I used to walk pased where the IRA blew up Broadgate, near Liverpool street. These days I visit Canery Wharf everyday, also targeted by the IRA, and all over the tube you can see world war 2 anti bomb shutters. I gew up near primary and secondary USSR H-Bomb targets. I've had relatives on platforms where bombs have gone off years ago. I have family in Spain affected by ETA. al-Qaeda, if this is that bunch of jerks, are a bunch of amaters who are about to learn something about this nation: You give us a bloody nose, we get back up and get back to work. And we have had as much practice as Spain at finding you.
Lee's profile says Bristol, relativly close to Wales, other side of the country, which is far enough away to not suggest a daily commute. MaGiG's profile says London, however her occupation would suggest she may be a little busy at the moment. [edited to fix gender]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(her, incidentally)
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
ooops, Sorry.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
"more than 50" dead now. 700 injured, 22 critically.
I've heard that at least 8 Australians have been injured - 2 critically.
I listened on the radio to a poor Australian man who had been there at the bombings in London - had also been through the Bali bombings. He sounded very upset. Poor guy.
Posted by MaGiC (Member # 59) on :
Didn't have a chance to post yesterday, but yes i'm fine and well - I work at The Guardian newspaper / guardian unlimited so stuff was somewhat frantic yesterday. It's the first major event since i've worked there and I had no idea what it would be like. I had a slight advantage over lots of people in that I can get my news right from the wires and don't have to wait for it to be published - I was using MSN to keep all my contacts informed with accurate and up to date info. Don't know why I didn't think to do that here! Dur.
Walking home last night was a really strange experience. Streets full of people who had no other way home - and a feeling of solidarity which believe me you don't normally get in London.
Glad everyone seems to be OK.
Clare X
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
My parents were vacationing in France, but are heading home today on a British economy carrier. They're okay, but probably going to be late. >.<
Mark
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
The trouble with most large cities is it's very hard to feel part of a community. On the tube you shut yourself away, tring to ignore the armpit your nose is pressed into. You see homeless people on the street, and you soon realise you can't give them all money as you pass, everyday. So you do other things to help, and try to get on with your own life. However, I've always found that once something serious happens, Londoners do come together, and will help each other out. Such things do remind us that we are part of something great, a town that lasted millenia that is constantly changing and absorbing new cultures, but remains what it has always been: Home.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Thanks for the info, tricky. And, MaGiC, it's good to see that you're all right.
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
So has anyone heard from Lee and Kate?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, as pointed out, they do live on the other side of the country. (Assuming Lee's profile is up to date, that is; I think that's the case, but seeing as how he's circumnavigated the globe, housing-wise, lately, I have trouble keeping track.)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I've got cousins living and working in London, they and their partners are OK. One though was actually in the train immediately behind the one that blew up at Liverpool St. Station. He had to walk through the tube tunnels to get out.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
There are two things I am wondering about these attacks:
1) Where are the bombers? There is some speculation that one of them died in the bus blast, but the rest are obviously still out there. Either they left the country or they are still in Britain, likely planning further attacks (a la Madrid). If they didn't want to die in the blasts, then I assume they don't want to get caught, either.
2) On June 17, a videotape by OBL's no. 2, Ayman al-Zawahiri, was released. There was speculation that this was a signal to carry out attacks, as several Zawahiri tapes have been followed within 3 weeks by attacks. While this is a good theory, it seems reasonable to assume this was not ordered by the al-Qaeda leadership itself but by an independent group. Still, it's an interesting coincidence.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, "al Qaeda leadership" is sort of a nebulous concept.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by MaGiC: Didn't have a chance to post yesterday, but yes i'm fine and well - I work at The Guardian newspaper / guardian unlimited so stuff was somewhat frantic yesterday. It's the first major event since i've worked there and I had no idea what it would be like. I had a slight advantage over lots of people in that I can get my news right from the wires and don't have to wait for it to be published - I was using MSN to keep all my contacts informed with accurate and up to date info. Don't know why I didn't think to do that here! Dur.
Walking home last night was a really strange experience. Streets full of people who had no other way home - and a feeling of solidarity which believe me you don't normally get in London.
Glad everyone seems to be OK.
Clare X
Really glad to hear you're unharmed. I hope Lee is well also- as pointed out, he (probably-hopefully) was not near the blasts.
Crazy as it may seem, (from what I've read in the paper today) the authorities have some good leads- two unexploded bombs and bazillions of hours of survelance footage to review. I've heard that this was not a suicide bomber thing but that timers were used (so much easier than a coordinated attack with people acting directly).
Here's hoping they get these fucktards.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
We're fine, thanks. When the news broke I was driving to Nottingham for some work-related absurdities. Initially what I heard was a travel report on Radio 2 about a power-surge causing disruption to trains near Liverpool Street, King's Cross and Edgware Road; I immediately smelled a rat as they were too widely-spread out. I phoned Kate who hadn't heard anything - she's the one who called me back about the bus, at which point it became obvious.
Since then I've had no chance to get on the net. Couldn't be bothered to figure out how to dial in from my hotel room. It felt very strange going out to get some dinner in Nottingham, knowing what was going on. Especially when we came out of the restaurant to find that the main square was cordoned off for a security alert.
We always felt that Liverpool Street was a prime target, it's where we used to come into the centre from the suburbs via. Granted we went the other way round the Circle Line (the bomb was on a clockwise train); similarly we worked at King's Cross and I occasionally used the Piccadilly Line to get there, but I'd always get off at KX - unless I was going on to my gym at Russell Square, not something I'd be doing at 9am on a weekday!
Last I heard our old company had one person missing and unaccounted for, and one of Kate's ex-colleagues there had lost her cousin.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Brit Hume: "Just on a personal basis ... I saw the futures this morning, which were really in the tank, I thought 'hmm, time to buy'."
Brian Kilmeade: "I think that works to our advantage, in the western world's advantage, for people to experience something like this together, just 500 miles from where the attacks have happened."
John Gibson: "If they had picked France instead of London to hold the Olympics, it would have been the one time we could look forward to where we didn't worry about terrorism. They'd blow up Paris, and who cares?" He added: "This is why I thought the Brits should let the French have the Olympics - let somebody else be worried about guys with backpack bombs for a while."
But then again, this is what we expect from Fox News.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Even better was Bush's comment that "We will stay on the offense, fighting the terrorists abroad so we do not have to face them at home."
Which, of course, put another way, is essentially "Hey, England, better you than us."
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: It felt very strange going out to get some dinner in Nottingham,
You were in Nottingham in the last few days! Damn! You should have let me know - I could have shown you around! Damn!
quote: Last I heard our old company had one person missing and unaccounted for, and one of Kate's ex-colleagues there had lost her cousin.
Aww that just sucks! Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Oh, if only we had a Prime Minister with balls, who'd grab Bush and hold him by the lapels and shout "YOU are coming down to London with me, and YOU are going to see the people who've died because you wanted to avenge some non-existent assassination plot against your daddy, and then YOU are going to come back up here and sign up to my climate change proposals because it's payback time, motherfucker!" Of course, if we had a Prime Minister with some balls, he'd never have helped Bush invade Iraq in the first place.
More fun and games tonight. Suspect packages in Birmingham city centre, controlled detonations, hundreds of bars and clubs evacuated, the city centre cordoned off. . . And all because some secretary from West Bromwich didn't take her handbag to the bar because she had about a half-dozen Bacardi Breezers to carry back, I'll warrant.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Please, lets not start with "it's all the American's/ Bush's fault" yet. I've already heard an earful of that- there would always be a reson for creeps to kill innocents, their motivations of the moment are just more publicly accepted just now.
It's nobody's "fault" people are dead except for the fuckers that planted the bombs.
quote:Originally posted by Veers: Meanwhile, in Fox News land... John Gibson: "If they had picked France instead of London to hold the Olympics, it would have been the one time we could look forward to where we didn't worry about terrorism. They'd blow up Paris, and who cares?" He added: "This is why I thought the Brits should let the French have the Olympics - let somebody else be worried about guys with backpack bombs for a while."
Cock-sucker.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I'm trying not to blame anyone. It just. . . would have been nice.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, I understand that explosive experts from the F.B.I and A.T.F. were sent over immeadeately to help in the investigation and that agents/ground suppot was offered as well.
It's something anyway.
I wish we americans could issue a notice to the world (mabye a UN Resolution) that FOX News does not in any way represent America or the adverage person's viewopoint on anything.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Unfortunately, it's not like the Iraq War had much to do with this. The sheer hatred of al-Qeada and the like for western civilisation made it pretty much inevitable that there was going to be an attack here.
What really would have helped is a PM who was able to resist the urge to be economical with the truth and come up with a convincing case for war with Saddam. Which would not exactly have been difficult.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
I would like to visit this magic wonderland of yours in which "the average person's" viewpoint on "anything" is actually informed and doesn't originate with Fox News in any way.
Plus, the US'd likely be the first to ignore that resolution, so...
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
My parents were in London. Their first reaction to the news after the requisite "Gawd, that's a tube stop we were going to take today--WE COULD HAVE BEEN ON THAT TRAIN!" was "aww crap, this is more or less our (the USA's) fault." After some initial terror for my parent's safety, I too felt that in some way that the provocative policies toward terror that the regime of my nation has been pursuing must be at least partly responsible. It's an awful feeling.
Part of me wants to believe that Al Queda would have eventually gotten around to something like this, that the attitude and actions of our President and armed forces have only advanced the timetable. But part of me knows that's bollocks.
I'll be meeting them in Paris next week. Maybe I'll just pretend to be Canadian again.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
While I doubt that U.S. policies in Iraq have helped anyone anywhere, Britain wasn't exactly smoothly sailing through the straits of Islamic extremism prior to 2002.
quote:Although Britain has passed a series of antiterrorist and immigration laws and made nearly 800 arrests since Sept. 11, 2001, critics have charged that its deep tradition of civil liberties and protection of political activists have made the country a haven for terrorists.
Clearly the solution is to turn the West into a series of totalitarian nightmares so that not even terrorists will want to immigrate there.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
But since they "hate freedom" so much, maybe they'll want to live there.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Granted, yes, there supposedly existed a "covenant of security" (Google the term to read more) which meant that so long as Jihadists didn't operate in the UK, they weren't arrested by the security services. I'm assuming that all the activity was monitored as best they could and anything relevant passed on, but what else could we do? To use an all-too-common phrase, we're not the world's policeman. And the IRA carried out organisational and fundraising activities in the US for a lot longer, and in fact still do, with impunity.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
Wasn't Bin laden trained by the US to fight the USSR? And who sold all those weapons to Saddam to fight Iran? The US is not the worlds policemen, but the worlds arms dealers. Not that the UK is much better, our arms industry is supported by purchasers getting loans of the UK government, and not paying it back.... Anyway my understanding is after 9/11, Bush was all for using that to justify going after Saddam, but Blair pushed him to go after the Taliban first, and in return get the UK's support for future actions.
Anyway the police belive that UK citizens are the bombers, most probably IT students, recruted at university. Bit like EDS employees....
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Yeah, the point is valid about bin Laden and Saddam once being supported by the US. It's an example of Realpolitik though; at the time, the USSR and Iran were seen as far greater threats to the West and the US than Islamic extremism. Of course once it was realised that Saddam was somewhat less than stable and intent on expanding Iraq's borders that went out the window in 1991.
In the case of Islamic extremists, they too were focussed on matters other than the west. Until it's collapse, the USSR was seen as a far greater threat, particularly given it's attitude to religion. It also directly affected far more Muslims far more directly, in Central Asia, than any of the Western powers, particularly after the 1960s.
And, of course, you have to remember this is nothing new. Islamic fundamentalist attacks against those they see as 'threats to Islam' have been going on for ages. Look at the Mahdi in the Sudan, Wahabbis in the Arabian Peninsula, and a whole bunch of others (often centred on millenarian figures and doctine, although also frequently at least partly the result of factors interacting with fundamentalism).
Ultimately, it must be remembered that the central aim of the leadership of al-Qaeda, is the ultimate destruction of non-Islamic society. Things would probably go worse for us if we gave in to demands to pull out of Iraq now and they would certainly go worse for Iraqis. Part of the problem is this expectation of instant success that many people seem to have. Iraq is going to need decades to become a stable, democratic society. You can't do it over night.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
I agree, pull out of Iraq now and we'd be looking at civil war, which will kill far more than anything that's going on more. And thats not what al-Qaeda want. They want us to give up our culture and way of life, or die, including all the muslims who disagree, the christians, jews, buddists, sataninists, etc, etc. How do we deal with such a group? (save locking them in a room with me and a baseball bat..)
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Or "how do we deal with the relics of four decades of fucking over countries and supporting extremist factions around the world in the name of realpolitik now that our realbombs don't work anymore", hmm?
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Well, we really have little hope of defeating them by direct military means; you can kill the people involved in these organisations but not the ideas and hate behind them.
Ultimately we simply have to trust in the power of democratic society to marginalise these people and reduce their levels of support. Democratic institutions, impartial civil administrations, apolitical militaries and economic development must be instituted to help to minimise terrorism and reduce the support for terrorist. Hopefully, in most cases this can be done through internal reform, supported by the (for want of a better term) Great Powers. However, this will be a long process, taking decades. I am worried about the lack of long term commitment, particularly from American governments who like to wrap everything up in four years.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I suppose the question then becomes, is the Al-Qaeda movement merely an extension or distillation of anti-US sentiment that has coalesced over the past couple of decades? Or, is it an extremist movement that has been able to flourish and grow to prominence, with that same specific anti-US feeling as a growth medium?
Note I'm not saying "anti-US" because I hold the US to blame; rather that the rhetoric (and that's all it usually was) of the time was often exclusively anti-American, rather than anti-Western-nations in general. This seems to have stemmed from US support for Israel, US support for the Shah of Iran (and opposition to the Iranian Revolution), the presence of US Marines in Beirut (and maybe even Somalia). . . and a thousand other slights real or imagined: many of which other Western nations could be blamed for, but usually weren't. Britain, for example, seems to have escaped the backlash from centuries of Imperial oppression by becoming a welcoming place for Islamic immigrants.
But all this has changed. Now we're being told by these nutters that it's us or them. It's a strange feeling, akin to having war declared against us by members of MENSA, or vegetarians - in other words, any one segment of our multicultural society, that we previously didn't have a problem with.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Yeah, that is a difficult question. Most religions have at least a small group of total nutcases with 'puify the religion' and 'down with the infidel' ideologies. In the case of Islam, in particular, this has become politicised and bound up with elements of anti-western sentiment to the extent that it's hard to distinguish the two.
Anti-western sentiment allows al-Quaeda and associated fundamentalists to gather support within Muslim countries and at the very least make it difficult for Muslims to act against them without seeming 'unIslamic'. By picking an outside group to primarily blame for the alledged threat to Islam, they are following a long and well established pattern (the Jews, the Bourgeosie, etc.).
Oh, and 'Imperial oppression' is very controversial. Current historiography moving to a more balenced view of both the good and bad things about the Empire. Muslims were generally loyal to the Empire, despite a few instances, mostly towards the end. In fact, I think the first Indian baronet was a Muslim, back in the 1840s.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Probably too strong a term, I didn't think it fit when I wrote it but I was in a hurry. I don't mean to imply there was a coordinated policy of oppression on the behalf of the British Empire; however there were occasions when Britain butted heads with Islamic cultures - the Kurds early 20th century; Turkey during World War I; centuries of ongoing strife on the North-Western Frontier. I guess the shifting nature of Islamic culture has generally led to shorter memories than you'd expect!
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Yeah! Sorry about that; the curse of being a history student! I keep thinking what my supervisor would say...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: I suppose the question then becomes, is the Al-Qaeda movement merely an extension or distillation of anti-US sentiment that has coalesced over the past couple of decades? Or, is it an extremist movement that has been able to flourish and grow to prominence, with that same specific anti-US feeling as a growth medium?
That's a big part of it. Some of this is still fallout from the cold war days when both the "western powers" (the US being by far most visible) supported one local tyrant over another to further whatever global chessboard situation was going on at the time.
In no way does that make this a "get what you deserve" kind of thing- the majority of deluded saps that carry out attacks are from our generation...or younger.
Another factor is that very poor and disenfranchised people are easy targets for hatemongers. That one knows no cultural boundries.
As example: Saudi Arabian clerics will set up a mosque in a poor village, make conditions marginally better there in exchange for unwavering loyalty to their extremist rethoretic. ....and of course, the promise of paradise in the afterlife. Funny how they never promise to make things better in this world- only to avenge whatever percieved wrong wealthy countries have heaped on the muslim world. Neglecting the fact that their leaders and supporters (the guys that dont blow themselves up) are often millionaires.
It's gotten to the point where some humanitarian aid is activly opposed by muslim clerics. Polio is back among muslims -with a vengence- as a reult. That will also be blamed on the WEst and the US in particular, of course.
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: I would like to visit this magic wonderland of yours in which "the average person's" viewpoint on "anything" is actually informed and doesn't originate with Fox News in any way.
Jesus, do you really believe that? That's like thinking that all French people are accurately represented in the Pink Panther movies. A horrible caricature at best.
I dont know of anyone that watches (at admits to anyway) FOXNews, but I suppose there must be a large flock of them out there- but as i said, the extremist statments of one bozo there does not stand for all americans or any majority.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
It is always far easier to tear down something than to build something up. And generally quicker too.
Messages of "pull yourself up by your own bootstrap" are in no way popular. Especially when you can gain an instant following with the "It's (insert proposed enemy)'s fault that you don't have jack! Now send me money to fight these Tyrants!" chant.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I dont know of anyone that watches (at admits to anyway) FOXNews
Well, now you know one. And I usually keep out of these discussions because the left wing element around here is extremely vocal, and I'm not. And I can form my own opinions, thank you. Having a political scientist for a wife has its advantages.
B.J.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"Jesus, do you really believe that?"
Insofar as I believe that the average person's viewpoint is as uninformed as a brick, yes, because I am one big elitist prick at heart.
Also, to pull one of Wizass's typical if-slightly-orthogonal-to-the-topic "anyone who is poverty-stricken has only themselves to blame, whatever the circumstances" rants into this context...
"It's (insert proposed enemy)'s fault that you don't have jack!"
...the people in, say, Iran or Afghanistan have plenty of reason to replace "proposed enemy" with "western powers" because the wrongs that have led to the current conditions in those countries are anything but "perceived", and until the anti-US sentiment there is taken away (which requires acknowledging why it is so strong in the first place), your hatemongers will always have a smorgasbord to feed on.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: " Also, to pull one of Wizass's typical if-slightly-orthogonal-to-the-topic "anyone who is poverty-stricken has only themselves to blame, whatever the circumstances" rants into this context...
"It's (insert proposed enemy)'s fault that you don't have jack!"
...the people in, say, Iran or Afghanistan have plenty of reason to replace "proposed enemy" with "western powers" because the wrongs that have led to the current conditions in those countries are anything but "perceived", and until the anti-US sentiment there is taken away (which requires acknowledging why it is so strong in the first place), your hatemongers will always have a smorgasbord to feed on.
So what you are saying is that their current conditions have nothing to do with their own infighting, culture, beliefs, choices, etc. and it was ALL caused by the U.S. policy in the last couple of decades. How Fraudian...er... Freudian of you. You obviously missed the intent of what I was saying. It is easier to complain about the wrongs that someone else has done to you and blame them for your misfortune, while sitting on your butt, than to get off your butt and DO something about your current condition.
The best revenge is living well.
Posted by Home Decor and Gardening (Member # 239) on :
Or flying planes into the buildings of those who do.
Posted by Home Decor and Gardening (Member # 239) on :
Which, also, could be construed as delightfully "getting off of TEH BUTT!1 and DOING !!something."
Blowin' up!
There's a silver dollar made out of genuine WTC meat, I see. What ever happened to Sacajawea dollars?
But for real, a spinning silver dollar! Set to God Save America! Or another delightfully dedicated Sousa romp! On TV! You can buy up to five (5).
I am ruining my mystique is what is the deal here.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
So, looks like they were suicide bombers and all apparently British, which is mildly worrying.
Yeah- looks like they took trains into town themselves. Looks like at least one bomber was only 19 years old- some kid's mind poisoned with a distorted view of his own religion. I heard another had two infants waiting for him back home... Incredible that someone could abandon their family just to kill strangers.
Want sadly ironic? Last wednsday, the House voted to cut the transportation safety budget by $50 million (from $150). Now, of course, they are vowing to "inscrease the safety of our trains and rail systems". Fucktards.
With news all aflutter of terrorism, the- much needed- revisions to the Patriot Act were all killed (save one). Now the US government will legally pry into any library or bookstore purchases you make.
Thankfully I paid for my Anarchist's Cookbook with cash.
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: "Jesus, do you really believe that?"
Insofar as I believe that the average person's viewpoint is as uninformed as a brick, yes, because I am one big elitist prick at heart.
people might be more informed if news of the London bombings was not already shuffled in with casualties in Iraq (back on page 12 today- right next to news of more than 30 children killed by a suicide bomber when they gathered for free candy and toys brought by US servicemen. Brad Pitt leaving the hospital with the flu was on page six. Un-fucking-believable).
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
Tend to agree with this
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Not bad.
This is very good. If all else fails, you can always rely on Boris...
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"Why does America import its suicide bombers, while we produce our own?"
I'll just drop one name: Timothy McVeigh.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
Oh Boris, Boris, Boris I take it he's talking about the British including the Liverpudlians? We should put him on a pedestal. And leave him there.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Oh, come on, he's one of the few decent parliamentarians we've got left. Although a joint press conference with him and Bush would probably be the comedy show of the century.
He does make some good points however; it's a good job he's slightly more coherent in print than in speech!
I do think that the attitude that minorities will take offence at any and all aspects of British culture is a very silly and really quite damaging one though. Unfortunately it's rooted in Blair and NewLab's general dislike of history.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: "Why does America import its suicide bombers, while we produce our own?"
I'll just drop one name: Timothy McVeigh.
Except he didn't commit suicide.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Neither did the Islamic extremists who bombed the WTC in '93.
So, the tally: not all domestic terrorists blow themselves up, not all foreign terrorists do, and just upping the flag-weaving dosage and conducting loyalty tests doesn't actually make them Go Away.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
No, but it will help with integration and reducing any sense of 'alienation' which is consistantly blamed for the production of those willing to carry out terrorist attacks.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Wait, what? I'm sorry, I seem to be in the wrong place. Can you show me the way back out of the Bizarro Universe?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The only solution to this "alienation" is to make sure that everyone in the West has a magnetic ribbon on their car and wears some sort of plastic bracelet. That'll show them!
We in the US certainly have our fair share of whackos, anti-government militias. the KKK, right-to-life bombers and of course, unaffiliated pyschos, but untill 9/11 we never faced foreign organizations commiting terrorist acts on our home soil.
Britons have a long history of repeling and enduring whatever the world throws at them in their own country and so this is now the same kind of shock as it would have been over here.
I agree with the writer of that linked article that anyone sympathysing with the IRA is an idiot and donating to them supports terrorism.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Here's the thing about the flag-waving. I'm a white, male, straight, middle-class suburbanite whose most recent foreign ancestor immigrated here over a hundred years ago, and whose most distant was here in colonial times. That's about as "American" as you can get. And the flag-waving makes me feel alienated.
And considering that the people waving the biggest flags are also the most likely to suggest something along the lines of sending all the ragheads back to Iraq, nuking it to glass, then nuking the glass, how do you suppose they feel about it?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, there's the FOXNews crowd of SUV drivin, France hatein', Liberal-bashin', flag-wavein' fuckheads and then there's the lemmings that think (somehow) that a sticker on their car means jack shit to someone stationed in Iraq. Or mabye they just see everyone else has one and they need to follow the crowd... Unfortunately, the minority of "nuke em all" and "I wish France got bombed" bozos are the vocal ones.
Are there such "conservative" voices in Britan? I imagine there probably is a wave of such opinions after any terror-attack.
I've seen a lot of stickers that proclaim "Jesus is peace" lately. That one's so laughably bad I cant even be bothered to let it upset me.
I'd like to see muslim leaders get more vocal in calling for tolerance- the lack of condemnation is bad, but the total silence as the deathtolls mount is often seen as consent.
Sometimes it is...unfortunately, it's another example of a slim minority making the masses look really bad.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
I'm not talking about the extreme 'everyone should have a flag, a flag badge, a flag sticker and go around chanting UK,UK,UK' view and I don't really think that's necessarily what's being advocated. But rather a more general pride in being British and in allowing people to identify themselves as such without fear of being accused of intolerance. Promotion of common values, whatever they may be, provides a core of societal cohesion, which is necessary. And moderate degrees of national pride and the symbolism that entails is a useful and successful method of achieving that.
It even works accross racial/religious boundaries; look at Queen Vicoria's Jubilee in 1897. That even got the New York Times proclaiming that the US was just part of 'Greater Britain'!
quote: Are there such "conservative" voices in Britan? I imagine there probably is a wave of such opinions after any terror-attack.
Not so much. I mean you do get a few BNP nutcases but no one really pays all that much attention to them outside of northern places beginning with B. Certainly no mainstream politician would advocate nuclear attacks for instance. the worst you're likely to get is a sort of high imperial disdain for the natives.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
If you want an issue, you can make anything an issue.
In the U.S., if you are of an ethnic background it is considered GOOD to take pride in your race. However, if you are white it is considered racist. That is rather two-faced.
Why can't people be proud of who they are without having to denigrated others?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Isn't it a bit ironic to complain about how white people are singled out, but then to use the term "ethnic" to mean "anything but white"?
And I've wondered what sense it makes for anyone to be proud of their racial make-up. It makes about as much sense as being proud to have green eyes, or proud to be 6'1" tall.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Well, the last time I used the word "Caucasian" I got bashed. Despite the nomenclature, the point remains valid. I was not saying that white people are singled out, I was pointing out that two groups of people from differening ethnic ancestory can have the same perspective of themselves and yet one is declared racist. Isn't THAT a form of bigotry in itself?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'm proud to be 6'1" tall. One day, I'll visit Japan and be a God I tells ya! A GOD!
The racial pride thing is pretty silly though- to be so proud of the one thing you have absolutely no control over. in Alabama, they've decided (in two predominately black schools) to make African Studies a requirement of graduation. That's pretty dumb- imagine if "Irish history" were forced down people's throats just because of the ethnic percentage of a school.
I think a course on tolerance would probably be a good thing in high school. The Republicans would never allow it though- it could be used to further the dreaded Gay Agenda. (insert scary music here)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
It's so hard to be white!
quote:That's pretty dumb- imagine if "Irish history" were forced down people's throats just because of the ethnic percentage of a school.
I think they call that place "Ireland."
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
And maybe "Boston," but I don't know.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Exactly- imagine being a black kid in Boston and being required to learn all about the plight of the poor Irish before they came to this country as a requirement of graduation. ...and in addition to Irish History Month, of course. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I thought Boston schools were full of teachers who look like Jeri Ryan and SO MUCH DRAMA.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmmmm...I thought Boston was the home of radical ideas on government and a home to liberal ideals-- like those beer-brewing founding- fathers were.
Plus, they pronounce "car" as "Kaaa".
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
What makes it a 'k' instead of a 'c'?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I used to be roomates with a guy from "Baaston". Trust me, it's "Kaaa". Sharp "K" sound. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: Well, the last time I used the word "Caucasian" I got bashed.
By who?
The biggest difference between our conservatives and American conservatives seems to be the religious angle. Blair is apparently a fairly upright Christian, but you never see him going on about God. It would just come across as a bit embarrassing. The "religious right" doesn't exist to anywhere near the same degree.
And to expand on what Simon is saying: I really don't get the "black people are allowed to be proud to be black, but we're not allowed to be proud to be white" stuff. Exactly what do you want to do? Drive Fords while listening to Rock music, before going home and watching the Discovery channel? Or are you just sick of watching TV programs where the lead is of a different ethnic background to yourself?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, I'm sick of "all black blocks" of programming (over here). On networks like WB and UPN, they show four "urban" (read: all black) shows on a single night...it's strange.
TV is still very segregated- so much so that many shows go overboard to include one of every ethnic cast -or sterotype- in an attempt to break away.
The desire for equality is a biiig stretch from seperating everything into "black" this or that. Imagine the outrage if someone started a multimillion dollar "all white" T.V. network and touted apparel "for whites, by whites" (as example). They could call it W.E.T. (mabye have a wet T-Shirt clad spokeswoman waving a confederate flag or something)
It's a segregationists's dream and they willingly go along with it, 'cause hey, Pride, right?
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: They could call it W.E.T. (mabye have a wet T-Shirt clad spokeswoman waving a confederate flag or something)
Isn't that the new Dukes of Hazard movie?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Probably. Not that I'll be wasting two hours of my finite life watching it to find out.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Well, the last time I used the word 'Caucasian' I got bashed."
"By who?"
"Whom". And I believe it was Simon who made a flippant comment about Azerbaijan, or something. Hardly a "bashing".
"Well, I'm sick of 'all black blocks' of programming (over here). On networks like WB and UPN, they show four 'urban' (read: all black) shows on a single night...it's strange."
And what about the all-white blocks of programming that are... all the rest of the time.
"Imagine the outrage if someone started a multimillion dollar 'all white' T.V. network..."
I don't recall there being that much outrage about TNN...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
"The Nashville Network" is hardly excluding anyone though is it? There's just not many black country singer is all.
As I said, TV is pretty segregated, but at least the networks put on a pretense of diversity.
Usually at a 5-1 ration of white to ethnic charcaters though....even in sci fi, there tend to be more aliens than black humans. Just like Hollywood, in that respect.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Usually at a 5-1 ration of white to ethnic charcaters though....even in sci fi, there tend to be more aliens than black humans. Just like Hollywood, in that respect.
You forgot UPN's "Homeboys in Outer Space"
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
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You should have let me know - I could have shown you around! Damn! ![[Wink]](wink.gif)