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Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

In TNG, we saw Gowron be installed as leader of the Klingon Empire. As you can see, it appears to be a long and complicated process...... including such rituals as the Sonchi and the Ja'CHuQ........

Flash to the last season of DS9 and Gowron gets impaled by Worf......... Martok immediately becomes Chancellor. A bit rushed, isn't it? Wouldn't Martok have to go through the same thing that Gowron did? Gowron was installed as chancellor months after Km'Pec had died.

So what happened here?

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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Two large differences seperate the two.

1.) K'mpec was murdered in a cowardly way by an unknown assailant.

2.) The Empire was in a state of war when Worf killed Gowron.

In the first case, there was no clear successor to the Chancellorship. And because of the second, the Generals, who probably weren't all that keen on Gowron in the first place, could probably be excused for possibly bending the rules a bit.

Not to mention that DS9 is a long ways away from the High Council.

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"Hey Mr. Boo, fly away home. Your house is so lovely, your children so nice."
--
Hello (The Band)

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Shit, I didn't know about that!!!

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

Mind your language. And there was a spoiler warning.

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Phase 1: Steal Underpants
Phase 2: ?
Phase 3: Profit!

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

Sorry, I should have looked before I leaped. I apologise for the language as well.

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"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, DS9 'Tears of the Prophets')

Posted by Chimaera on :

Firstly, a small correction. It was only a matter of days, if I remember correctly, between the death of Kimpec (sp?) and Gowron becoming chancellor. It was all in the same episode, after all. Gowron became chancellor automatically after Worf killed Duras, although most of the ceremonies had already been finished.

As I understand it: The difference is that Kimpec died in office, he was not challenged for the leadership. In this case there is no automatic successor, one needs to be chosen (hence the rituals already mentioned). However, Worf challenged Gowron for the leadership, and won, and therefore he (or in this case Worf's choice, Martok) is automatically the successor.

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"But, it was so artistically done."
-Grand Admiral Thrawn

Posted by Xentrick (Member # 64) on :

a thought: Martok said Gowron was a politician, not a warrior. If so, Gowron might have taken steps to make very sure that there was NO apparant successor for him back on the Klingon homeworld.

However, as Gowron got the point in the presence of Martok---who had *just* been declared such a major hero of the Empire-- the immediate, unquestioned ascention of Martok to the post might have come as a welcome change. The bureaucrats who fancied the job might be individualy unhappy, but the citizenry and military should have had a huge boost of morale.

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Chimaera: You may be correct on the suggestion Worf challenged Gowron's leadership, whereas no one challenged K'mpec when he died. Duras was probably one heck of a coward to poison K'mpec instead of challenging him directly. However, one note: Gowron did not become Chancellor after Duras was killed. In fact, Gowron became Chancellor during the events of Redemption, when Picard was his Arbiter of Succession.

Two things point out in my mind:

1) Just before Gowron was installed as Chancellor, Toral, son of Duras, challenged Gowron, which brought out the Klingon Civil War. That means that Gowron had to wait a while to settle with any other challengers before he was officially instilled as Chancellor.

2) Remember STVI, where Chancellor Gorkon was assassinated? His daughter Azetbur was immediately put in place (wheras Gowron had that dreaded "waiting period").

Anyone want to give any more opinions?

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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited August 20, 1999).]

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

The Klingon Empire is corrupt?

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Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue")

Posted by jh on :

Wasn't it pretty much stated during "Redemption" that the rite of succession was so drawn out because there were TWO claimants? If there were only one I imagine it would be pretty quick. Plus, as has been pointed out, Gowron's death was the result of a direct challenge.

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Proverbs for Paranoids, 3: If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry about answers.

Posted by Chimaera on :

I stand corrected

But a point about the challenges to Klingon leadership. It's been said before that only direct subordinates can challenge a commander (or presumably the chancelor), so that, for instance, an ensign couldn't just walk up and challenge a general. But Worf wasn't one of Gowron's subordinates, he wasn't even in the Klingon defence force, he was a starfleet officer. Although he is a Klingon, and a member of the house of Martok, he's below Martok on the chain of command, so would his challenge be valid (or would the Klingons, in the heat of the moment, even care)? Or would the challenge have to be made by one of the Klingon generals present? Since the challenge went through, and Martok is chancellor, I'd assume that either it's a valid challenge anyway, or the Klingon staff present bent the rules in the heat of the moment.

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"But, it was so artistically done."
-Grand Admiral Thrawn

Posted by The First One (Member # 35) on :

The Klingons are probably the most fascinating race ever to appear on Trek. They're Leonard Nimoy's favourite, for example, which is why he chose them as the focu of his Star Trek VI script. What drew him to them is this dichotomy between a rich and complex culture that also appears to outsiders to be on the brink of barbarism.

You have to put yourself in the place of the representatives of the Klingon High Command who would be present as Gowron's staff, and, like the Roman Praetorian Guard, be the ultimate kingmakers here. They would have seen that Gowron was no longer a fit leader, but being good soldiers they might not consider it their place to intervene. Then an officer as junior as Worf, someone many of them look on as not even Klingon, is able to defeat Gowron. As Klingon warriors they cannot ignore this event (and how it reflects on Gowron's place as the #1 warrior in the Empire), but as halfway-politicians they know it wouldn't be best for Worf to assume leadership, that many would still dispute it, and anothet civil war would ensue.

They would see Worf's actions as being like Sheridan's in B5, the right thing for the wrong reasons. And to then be offered an immediate compromise candidate in Martok, whose warriorship, leadership and politicianship are there for all to see, and who furthermore having been treated underhandedly (and dishonourably) by Gowron must, to their minds, be someone special if Gowron was so willing to backstab him.

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Phase 1: Steal Underpants
Phase 2: ?
Phase 3: Profit!