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GD Poll of the Week 1 (Villians)
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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Saltah'na</b> <br /><small>Member # 33</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,12,18,16,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 12, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:16 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Ok, I'll be starting a series of discussions here called the "GD Poll of the Week". Not really a poll, but also a discussion on certain issues or events in Trek. And no Starship Discussions here.<P><b>This week's poll:</b><P>We've seen many villians here in Trek. But which one(s) do you think really stand out the most? Which one do you love to hate?<P>a) Khan (STII)<BR>b) Chang (STVII)<BR>c) The Duras Sisters (TNG, STG)<BR>d) Borg Queen (STFC, Voy)<BR>e) Dukat (DS9)<BR>f) Weyoun (DS9)<BR>g) Female Shapeshifter (DS9)<BR>h) Maje Culluh or Seska (Voy)<BR>i) Commander Sela (TNG)<BR>j) Anyone else I haven't mentioned.......<P>------------------<BR>I can resist anything.......<BR>Except Temptation <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,12,20,25,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 12, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:25 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Most of these are excellent characters. My favorite? Well, I'd have to narrow it down to Khan, Dukat, and Weyoun. From there...well...it's all about memorable lines for me. And while all three have them, and Dukat and Weyoun probably have the most, the first that popped into my head was from ST II. "Oh, I've done far worse than kill you. I've hurt you. And I intend to go on...hurting you." So Khan. For today, anyway.<P>------------------<BR>"I wish that everything went just as I wish everything would go."<BR>--<BR>John Linnell <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Xentrick</b> <br /><small>Member # 64</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,12,20,46,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 12, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:46 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, they each have memorable qualities, but most are little more than James Bond villains, really, or just the leaders of some rival government. <P>Of them all, the Borg Queen, however, was something a little more *creepy*--- a return to the Borg's origins in Clive Barker's "Hellraiser" movies. Not so much an "villain" {nazi, commie, cardassian, dominion} but a entity straight out of horror. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Masao</b> <br /><small>Member # 232</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,12,21,33,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 12, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:33 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> From a dramatic point of view, it is always interesting if the antagonist does not understand that he or she is the villain. Instead, this person should believe that he or she is in fact the hero and is doing what is right. From this point of view, I liked the early (pre-queen) Borg best. Since Star Trek in an SF show, I liked the fact that they were utterly inhuman, more like a disease than sentient beings. I also sensed in them a kind of sadness or confusion when humans couldn't understand that joining the collective was a good decision. I think the Borg Queen humanized the Borg too much and allowed them to be deceived too easily by Data. I agree with Xentrick's suggestion that the Borg Queen was a reflection of the Borg's true origins, but Star Trek plays it too safe for real horror.<P>As for human villains, I like Khan, but, again, early Khan. In "The Space Seed," you got a sense of restrained power and regal bearing. You could believe that this guy had been a king. In The Wrath of Khan, he had gone a little nutty, and really chewed the scenery (just like Shatner). He no longer was fighting for the betterment of his situation, but was simply out for revenge. Too simple. Maybe this was the intention, but I think it weakened the character too much.<P>------------------<BR>When you're in the Sol system, come visit the <A HREF="http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/sfmuseum/" TARGET=_blank> Starfleet Museum </A><P><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Epoch</b> <br /><small>Member # 136</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,13,0,9,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 13, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:09 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I like weyoun. He is just plain evil.<P>------------------<BR>Death before Dishonor!<BR>However Dishonor has <BR>quite a disputed defintion.<P><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,13,1,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 13, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:31 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I'd have to disagree. Had Captain Ahab been rational, Moby Dick would have been a very forgetable book.<P>------------------<BR>"I wish that everything went just as I wish everything would go."<BR>--<BR>John Linnell <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Masao</b> <br /><small>Member # 232</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,13,2,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 13, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:14 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Sol System: I agree that irrationality is inherent to and necessary for Captain Ahab, and indeed for many other characters. I'm only saying that the irrationality was a change in Khan's character from how we had seen him in Space Seed. I don't think the original Khan would have tried to take revenge on Kirk or been so easily baited as was the movie Khan. Also, I don't think that such an irrational leader could have survived on Ceti Alpha IV (or whatever number it was). I supposed the mere mention of Kirk's name could have made him go completely nuts. If Khan would have asked nicely would Starfleet relocated him to another planet? (I think this was covered in an earlier thread.) Would a rational Khan have been a boring movie character? Perhaps, but he would also have been more consistent.<P>------------------<BR>When you're in the Sol system, come visit the <A HREF="http://www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/sfmuseum/" TARGET=_blank> Starfleet Museum </A><P><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dax</b> <br /><small>Member # 191</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,13,2,48,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 13, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:48 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Dukat would have to be my favourite villain. Weyoun is a close second.<P>------------------<BR>"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)<BR><A HREF="http://www.aceonline.com.au/~dax/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>Dax's Ships of STAR TREK</A><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Hobbes</b> <br /><small>Member # 138</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,13,8,57,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 13, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:57 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> J) Q.<P>For me, Q is the villian you love to hate. It wasn't as evil as say Dukat or Weyoun, more mischievous in what he did. Though never to be taken what Q does lightly because he was serious too. I admit those are good choices Tahna, and Khan was probably more evil than Q. Of course I hate how the writers softened Q up.<P>------------------<BR>Calvin: "My life needs a rewind/erase button."<BR>Hobbes: "...and a volume control."<BR><A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/thefsd" TARGET=_blank>Federation Starship Datalink</A> - Starship site of the new millennium. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dax</b> <br /><small>Member # 191</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,13,9,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 13, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:29 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I personally don't see Q as a villain in the same sense as the others. He always seemed to help more than he harmed. As Data said in "All Good Things", the Q and Picard relationship was like a master and his beloved pet. I suppose Q could be called a friendly adversary.<P>------------------<BR>"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)<BR><A HREF="http://www.aceonline.com.au/~dax/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>Dax's Ships of STAR TREK</A><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Kosh</b> <br /><small>Member # 167</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,13,11,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 13, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:30 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Q would destroy the universe if it suited his perpose.<P>------------------<BR><B>Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!<BR> Gandalf </B><P><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Individual 5748</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,13,14,49,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 13, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:49 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I personally liked Seska and Culluh. While they weren't necessarily creepy or strange, they were just bad - straight negativity. Nothing good would/could come from them, and I think that in a way makes a great villain. <P>I think that another character that has the potential to become one of the great villains is Gaul, one of the Vaadwaur from "Dragon's Teeth." I think he could join the ranks of this list if he gets a good story.<P>------------------<BR>"Questions, comments, bring them to me. Problems, take them to Kinis."<BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Aban Rune</b> <br /><small>Member # 226</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,15,8,32,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 15, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:32 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I LOVE the comments about the nature of the Borg above guys. You are true intellects! I thought that "But why don't you WANT to be perfect like us" attitude was a complelling element of the Borg nature too. I also agree that Trek could never do anything really, really scary.<P>I thought the whole Dukat story was incredible. From a petty dictator, to a self imposed religious icon, to spokesman for the anti-Christ (or anti-Prophet or ehatever). His insanity and evil just kept growing and growing. I thought he was one of the best developed and unscrewed up parts of the whole DS9 continuing plot line, as well as a truely well thought out villan.<P>------------------<BR>"Resolve and thou art free." <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Bernd</b> <br /><small>Member # 6</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,15,10,35,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 15, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:35 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> My ratings:<P>a) Khan (STII)<BR>I agree with Masao. The early Khan was the better villain for the story. He was flattering, treacherous, unpredictable and underestimated. The movie Khan was a stereotype, just like the title says.<P>b) Chang (STVII)<BR>No, I didn't like him. He was no match for Kirk, the only special about him was his frequent Shakespeare quoting which was awful. At least the attempts to form a distinct character were too many and too obtrusive for a rather short movie.<P>c) The Duras Sisters (TNG, STG)<BR>They win in the category of awkward villains. They were never conceded a real chance to win. How could they, since Picard always had all the advantages?<P>d) Borg Queen (STFC, Voy)<BR>While the Queen as a person made a great enemy, I agree that it didn't suit the Borg. If the Queen is the representation of the Borg's consciousness, then the Borg are evil. I preferred the TNG Borg who were just acting on instinct. These Borg were much like a natural force.<P>e) Dukat (DS9)<BR>This is one I really like to hate, but not always. He is not that evil that he is just despicable. It seems every time the storyline was moving in such a direction, there was an episode suited to partially rehabilitate him. My only criticism is that he was often portrayed as being *too* mad. A villain must be conscious about what he's doing, which doesn't mean that he has to *know* he's acting evil. <P>f) Weyoun (DS9)<BR>Yes, he's plain evil, and he has everything a good villain needs. However, he is just a genetically engineered being conditioned to serve the Founders.<P>g) Female Shapeshifter (DS9)<BR>She's evil, but I would have to watch the complete final chapter first.<P>h) Maje Culluh or Seska (Voy)<BR>What would Culluh do without her? Seska wins in the category of female villains (of which there are not so many). Culluh himself is too stupid to be accepted as a villain.<P>i) Commander Sela (TNG)<BR>It seems all Romulans are alike, whether they are dark-haired or blond. Was it Weyoun who said "They are so predictably treacherous"? Actually, nothing special about her character, since she returned only once and no storyline about her was created.<P>j) Anyone else I haven't mentioned.......<BR>What about Soran and Annorax? Two villains who are doing really bad things to achieve a good goal. One has to think twice before accusing them. Especially Annorax is fully aware of what he's doing, but he doesn't consider it as bad. Trying to argue with him, he would respond that never ever someone is being hurt by him, and that he is restoring and not destroying. Moreover, it's love and passion that drives him, not just greed or striving for power or revenge or madness. My absolute favorite.<P>------------------<BR>"Naomi Wildman, sub-unit of Ensign Samantha Wildman, state your intentions." (VOY: "Infinite Regress") <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Orion Syndicate</b> <br /><small>Member # 25</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,15,12,44,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 15, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:44 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Species 8472 have got to get my vote. In Scorpion I and II, they were very good bad guys, even more so than the Borg in my opinion because a species that can annhialate the Borg has got to draw respect.<P>------------------<BR>The line must be drawn here, this far, no further. Picard, First Contact<P>The line has to be drawn here, this far and no further. Quark, Dogs of War<P><p>[This message has been edited by Orion Syndicate (edited December 15, 1999).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,16,4,23,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 16, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:23 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Regarding Khan: Perhaps he was a more convincing character in "Space Seed". But...so what? You can't do Moby Dick without revenge as a primary motive. And while you could argue that Khan was a caricature, he was a damned good one.<P>------------------<BR>"I wish that everything went just as I wish everything would go."<BR>--<BR>John Linnell <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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