) states that the Romulans and Vulcans fought a war that lasted for a century some time prior to 2072. The war was sparked by Quinn, a member of the Q continuum.If the Romulans had no warp drives, how could this be? Do you suppose that Quinn shuttled Romulan and Vulcan ships to places where they could fight? And nobody noticed?
Your thoughts please. I think this might be plausible if the Romulans thought they had discovered a stable wormhole connecting their space to Vulcan space. Is there any other way this might be plausible?
--Baloo
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"Lassie, her ears pricked up!"
--Atoth the Tamarian [From "Star Trek: Door Repair Guy"]
http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
They later went on to theorize that the Romulans had devoped 'one-shot' single-use warp drives, although this wouldn't sound like a good idea to me..
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.
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"To make the merry-go-round go faster, so that everyone needs to hang on tighter, just to keep from being thrown to the wolves."
-They Might Be Giants, "They Might Be Giants"
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Frank's Home Page
"So, anyways, this is the 24th century. Starfleet officers have injections once a month or so so that they don't go getting each other pregnant. How would it be a problem for my character and Joral to be rocking the casbah?" - Fabrux
If Earth had been the aggressor in that war, I doubt the Vulcans would have been founding members. They aren't necessarily pacifist, but they would not condone a war of concession, not give one tacit approval by allying themselves with the aggressor so soon after the conflict ended.
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"Lassie, her ears pricked up!"
--Atoth the Tamarian [From "Star Trek: Door Repair Guy"]
http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/
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"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven
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"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
As for the Vulco-Romulan War, my preference is to say that it lasted from around 2050 to around 2150. This would be soon before the Terro-Romulan War, which might explain why the Vulcans didn't involve themselves in that. Of course, there are equally satisfactory times at which to place it, also.
Oh, and for anyone who's going to try to reference Dougherty's line in ST9 about Romulan thugs and warp drive... I don't think he meant that these "thugs" were the first ones to introduce warp drive to the Romulan civilization. I thik he may have just meant that they brought about a much more effective warp drive (perhaps the introduction of artificial singularities, rather than fusion power). However, I don't remember exactly what the wording was, so this may or may not fit what he said.
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"To make the merry-go-round go faster, so that everyone needs to hang on tighter, just to keep from being thrown to the wolves."
-They Might Be Giants, "They Might Be Giants"
I think we'll need 2 or 3 witnesses before we judge this one, the wording is important. I really think the Romulans could not have waged a war of aggression without some sort of FTL travel. Except for wormholes and other "naturally-occurring" anomalies, warp drive is just about the only way you could even begin to contemplate an interstellar war that lasted only 3 years.
--Baloo
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"Lassie, her ears pricked up!"
--Atoth the Tamarian [From "Star Trek: Door Repair Guy"]
http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/
[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited March 19, 2000).]
They still might have been able to travel interstellar distances but, not using 'warp' drive. maybe it was a very insufficient, unstable technology - which cause extreme cellular degeneration and disfiguration leading to their 'ridges' and Klingons after they obtained similar tech from the Romulans - AND having a similar physiology - ALSO developed similar symptoms to the Romulans... This of course happened for the Klingons before the Romulans... maybe the Romulan deception of the true nature of their tech was a reason for the continuing Romulan/Klingon tensions.
Klingons, ridges before TMP, Romulans ridges before "The Neutral Zone" - or when ever that picture of Senator Pardek was taken in "Unification"
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"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
As for "Balance of Terror", when I saw it I specifically watched for any clues that there was no warp drive. There was nothing explicit. It all stems from Scotty's line that they only had "impulse power" (I'm pretty sure those are the exact words). Even though we now use "impulse" only in reference to the drive, it's possible that, at the time of TOS, it was common to use it to refer to a fusion reactor, at least when it was partially used to power a subluminous drive.
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"To make the merry-go-round go faster, so that everyone needs to hang on tighter, just to keep from being thrown to the wolves."
-They Might Be Giants, "They Might Be Giants"
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"Who wouldn't be the one you love
Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
I've always speculated that the war started shortly after the Great Schism when both civilizations had warp drive, split apart, bombed each other back into the Stone Age and then had to discover Warp again. That would also account for what we would guess are the vast differences in the Romulan and Vulcan versions of warp propulsion.
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Kiff! I have bedded a woman. Inform the crew.
- Zap Brannigan
Regarding the Romulans and warp drive, this is one the first questions I ever asked on the forum a few months ago. It was covered pretty extensively in this thread: http://flare.solareclipse.net/Forum6/HTML/000202.html and http://flare.solareclipse.net/Forum6/HTML/000202-2.html
I used the answers to the questions to write my most recent article for the Starfleet Museum (http://www.uni-siegen.de/dept/fb12/ihe/bs/startrek/sfmuseum/romulan-war.htm). I figured the best answer was that both the Romulans and Earth had warp drive. At the start of the war, both sides used fusion power, but then earth developed antimatter drives, as used in Daedalus. The Romulans wasted all their time trying to harness quantum singularities but didn't succeed for a another two centuries. Since Balance of Terror says that the two sides never saw each other up close, I'm guessing the border at the start of the war isn't too much different from the current border.
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When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
Were this true, then Romulans certainly wouldn't need warp drive for "Balance of Terror" to work (except as the drive system of their plasma weapons - manned warpships might be more difficult to create than unmanned warp weapons). So could the Romulan Star Empire have lacked warp drive until the TOS era and the alliance with Klingons?
One argument against that is the existence of offshoot colonies in "Gambit". But those could have been founded by sublight ships, similar to those the Romulans would have used in a migration from Vulcan to Romulus/Remus. "Gambit" states that some of these colonies are in different sectors, but perhaps sectors in the vicinity of Romulus are very small for historical reasons (dating back to the times when ships were slow so space had to be divided into smaller volumes for organizational purposes). And the planets need not be full 20 ly away from each other to be in different sectors, even if sectors are 20x20x20ly^3.
Also, the Encyclopedia makes some veiled remarks about the ancient Romulans having "spanned the quadrant". What would be the exact "Gambit" reference used as the source? And could this simply mean "quadrant" in the sense the word is used in, say, STII (apparently 1/4 of a sector)?
If the "Gambit" references can be explained away, then I can't think of any other evidence that would require the pre-TOS Romulans to have been warp-capable. I don't even remember clear evidence that the RNZ would have to be bigger than 1 ly across overall, or house more than one system - has another Romulan star system ever been mentioned besides the Romulus/Remus/Romii one?
Timo Saloniemi
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"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven
After all, "Balance of Terror" does define the RNZ as a zone that "separates the planets Romulus and Remus from the rest of the galaxy", as the quote goes. And in that episode, a Romulan ship zips between outposts seen on that map using an impulse drive (although there is nothing to say the ship couldn't have had a warp drive aboard, and simply would not have turned it on). Most explicitly, the ship proceeds from the last outpost it destroys to the RNZ using only impulse engines (the Enterprise tracks the ship and predicts her course by assuming an impulse drive, and since they do not lose their prey, she must be moving at impulse as assumed). If the map is even roughly to scale, then this last bit of info means that the said scale is really small, and we could be looking at a single system.
Assuming the "empire" consisting of a single system (at least after the war which they lost) lies sufficiently close to Earth or Vulcan, say, 25-50 ly, then cloaked sublight ships could easily reach Earth or Vulcan. Even uncloaked ships could have been a threat back in the 2150s when sensor ranges were short and starships few. And after TOS, an "empire" with cloaks and Klingon-borrowed warpships would be a threat indeed, regardless of whether it had one planet or one hundred.
We have seen how costly it is to attack a star system in DS9. If the Romulans have fortified theirs sufficiently by the time of TOS, they could lay waste to the nearby Earth from this invulnerable base.
Timo Saloniemi
At some point in their ancient history the Vulcans are technologically advanced species with warp capability but still suffer from their un-suppressed emotions. A savage war breaks out between separate factions. Those who follow the new philosophies of Surak and the those who will eventually come to be called the Romulans. After nearly a hundred years war in which off-Vulcan colonies are destroyed and much of the civiliation is bombed back into the Stone Age the Romulans take the few remaining warp-capable ships and leave for a new home. Some ships are lost along the way, others find homes for themselves (the ruins from Gambit, see also Spocks comments in Paradise Syndrom) and the outlying colonies are either cut off or destroyed leaving a decimated populus on Vulcan and a band of stragglers headed toward Romulus.
After a period of time the Vulcans recover under the leadership of T'Planahath and soon are exploring the galaxy again, unaware of what has become of those who left (Balance of Power - Spock apparenty isn't aware of the existence of the Romulans).
The Romulans, the few that are left after their journey, make a home on Romulus and begin building a civilization basically from scratch. Though they retain some techonologies they revert to more primitive things in others (not an unheard of thing - witness the Middle Ages) including the non-warp drive that their ships are equipped with at the time of the war with Earth.
NOTE: Though we know Earth and Romulus fought a war that occurred after First Contact with the Vulcans we don't know for certain what type of contact there was between them. They could have been faceless enemies, which would explain a lack of knowledge about them, who were identified only post facto. Or Earth and Vulcan ties weren't so close (or were just too new) at the time of the war so the Vulcans weren't told everything.
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Kiff! I have bedded a woman. Inform the crew.
- Zap Brannigan
http://www.icok.net/~fearless/fcis/rhistory.html
The best entries are:
462 A.D- Geological prospecting reveals that there are no subspace-active materials in the Romulus system. Long range scans by probe ships show that nearby systems. The Empire begins to expand using ancient sublight colonization techniques, which will take centuries.
1542 A.D.- Romulan sublight ships find limited amounts of subspace active materials. Within 10 years a small handful of warp capable ships are built. The Empire develops a unique style of transport, large carrier ships convey up to one thousand in their hulls and even entire vessels within their warp fields. This system works safely for centuries.
and here's something else dealing with Romulan Technology, but I'm not sure if it'll help or not.
http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~j1542 A.D. ason/dummies4.htm
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"Power-mad conspiritors, Daleks, Cybermen. They're still in the nursery compared to us. The oldest civilization in the univesre. Ten million years of absolute power. That's what it takes to
become really corrupt!"
-Doctor, THE ULTIMATE FOE
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
Whether the romulans could have set up an empire on the far edge of the Federation without FTL depends on how large the Federation is and how far Romulus is from earth. Supposedly the Federation is thousands of light years in diameter. If the romulans didn't have FTL, they could travel at a maximum of 1 light year per year. If the schism that drove them from Vulcan occurred 2000 years ago, they couldn't be more than 2000 light years away and probably much less. If the schism occurred more recently, they would have to be even closer. So, as jh says, warp drive is probably needed in the past to establish the empire. jh's suggestion that the Romulans lost warp capability after reaching their new homes is possible, but I think it's not necessary, unless you believe that the fought the E-R War without FTL.
For the record, here's what spock says about the War (I transcribed this in a hurry, but I think I got most of it): "Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond the moving position of our vessel a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the neutral zone, established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict of over a century ago. As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels, which allowed no quarter, no captives. Nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communications. No human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous. And only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, set by subspace radio, established this neutral zone, entry into which by either side would constitute an act of war."
How wide is the neutral zone? I had always assumed that it was at least a light year wide. Maybe by judging the speed of Enterprise the scale of this map can be figured out.
Also note that in this episode, there is no mention of who won this conflict. The idea that Earth prevailed was later introduced only in the TNG era, with the establishment of the Battle of Cheron.
A strange thing about this episode is the distinction drawn between invisibility and sensor detectability. A major plot device is that while the Romulan ship cannot be seen, it can be tracked by sensors. Similarly, although the Romulans cannot see Enterprise they can detect it with sensors but dismiss is as a sensor echo. Therefore, the cloaking device as seen here is the equivalent of darkness or a thick fog. As with modern aircraft, most combat in space will probably occur without visual contact. I haven't seen "The Enterprise Incident" for about 15 years (yes, I'm about 150 years old), so I can't comment on how cloaking device is treated in that episode. However, by the TOS movies, the cloaking device prevented both visual and sensor detection.
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When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
And I think the only thing "misleading" about Scotty's line is that everyone assumes that "impulse" means the subluminous propulsion and nothing else. However, I'm pretty sure he said "impulse power". Impulse power is not the same thing as impulse drive.
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"To make the merry-go-round go faster, so that everyone needs to hang on tighter, just to keep from being thrown to the wolves."
-They Might Be Giants, "They Might Be Giants"
Scotty: They have only impulse power, Captain.
Kirk: You mean only impulse drive?
Scotty: No, I mean warp drive powered by a fusion reactor.
Kirk: Then why didn't you say so, you drunken idiot.
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When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
However possible that scenario would be, I still prefer to interpret things so that Romulans always had interstellar warp and used that tech to move from Vulcan to Romulus. It's just that not all of their warships possess that drive. There is little need for it if the Romulans are not allowed out of their home system, after all. The ship seen in "BoT" could have been a warp-driven patrol vessel similar to those seen intercepting the Enterprise in "The Deadly Years", simply modified so that the drive is replaced by the cloaking device (or power rerouted so that the cloak uses it all up).
Timo Saloniemi
Here's the first on there History: http://www.icok.net/~fearless/fcis/rhistory.html
And some sites about them/and or, on their Technology: http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~jason/index.html http://sac.uky.edu/~jmosbo0/Mem_A/romulan.html http://pages.prodigy.com/nadel/aliens.htm http://www.startrekker.net/peoples/romulan.shtml http://startrek.about.com/entertainment/startrek/msub19.htm?once=true&
So far, this was all I could find, hope they help!
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"Power-mad conspiritors, Daleks, Cybermen. They're still in the nursery compared to us. The oldest civilization in the univesre. Ten million years of absolute power. That's what it takes to
become really corrupt!"
-Doctor, THE ULTIMATE FOE
For reference, here's what spock says about the Romulans in "Balance of Terror:"
Spock: And if the Romulans are an offshoot of my Vulcan blood -- and I think this likely -- then attack becomes even more imperative.
McCoy: War is never imperative, Mr. Spock.
Spock: It is for them, Doctor. Vulcan, like earth, had its aggressive, colonizing period. And if the Romulans retain this martial philosophy, then weakness is something we dare not show.
McCoy: Do you want a galactic war on your conscience?
Does this passage suggest that Humans were aggressive colonizers sometime between the 2260s and the start of the FTL age in the 2060s? Was Earth possibly the aggressor in the war? Or is Spock just pointing out savage events that occurred on Earth itself, before the space age, as he likes to do?
Here's the part where they talk about the Romulan ship:
Kirk: Well, gentlemen, the question still remains: can we engage them with a reasonable possibility of victory?
Scott: No question. Their power is simple impulse.
Kirk: Meaning we can outrun them.
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When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
In fact, if the Romulans only had impulse drive, Kirk would be making the understatement of the twenty-third century by saying the E could outrun them. I think Kirk was well aware that Scotty meant that the Romulans' warp drive was powered by the same fusion reactions that are the basis of "impulse", and that this placed their top warp speed much lower than the E's.
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me: "I need a new sig..."
CC: "Well create one."
-why I don't have a real signature
Interestingly, if Spock is speaking of the aggressive colonizing phase of the western society on Earth between 1500 and 1800, instead of a space colonization phase between 2060 and 2260, then perhaps he is making an exact analogy. Perhaps Vulcan, too, had a time when peoples from one part of the planet conquered peoples from other parts of the same planet?
Perhaps the ridgeheaded Vulcans were among the oppressed, and among the most aggressive of the Vulcan inhabitants? They could have opposed Surak as a racial group in addition to being a group tied together by philosophy. The 100-yr war could have been between flatheads and ridgeheads on Vulcan during "an aggressive, colonizing period", leading to a deep schism that ended in the departure of the ridgeheads and thus the birth of the Romulan race. Some flatheads would naturally go with them, and some ridgeheads would remain on Vulcan.
The caveat here is that a planet capable of starflight seems unlikely to be in a phase of dirtbound colonialism. Perhaps the 100-yr war resulted in the achieving of starflight, as our WWs gave us flight and spaceflight? Imagine large isolated desert communities developing the tech required to wage war with each other across distances - mere crusade-type mass movements of foot soldiers or mounted knights would be doomed to disappear amidst the sands, and mechanized troops would also have immense problems. Perhaps a major war could only be fought with the invention of advanced flight technologies, later leading to spaceflight?
Timo Saloniemi
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"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
And once self-sustenance is established, being surrounded is no problem. The troops of the surrounded party are always ideally deployed, whereas the surrounding opponent is spreading his nonoptimally. Cloakships can run the blockade in modern days, thanks to the fact that you have to be very close to a cloakship to spot it - similarly, ships of yore may have slipped out even without a cloak if the sensors of that era required similar proximity for reliable detection.
Total control of a single star system (especially a system the Romulans probably could choose carefully from a group of candidates, a luxury Humans or Klingons do not have) is IMHO sufficient basis for building a mighty starfleet and terrorizing the surrounding space. It's just a matter of the psychologigal makeup of the Romulans and the Klingons if the former consider a single system a "Star Empire", while the latter feel inferior if their Empire doesn't have the largest number of conquered planets in the galaxy.
As for canon-based arguments for and against:
-The fact that the RNZ is said to be monitored by a tachyon net in "Face of the Enemy" is either an oversimplification or then proof of a) incredible engineering prowess of the Federation or b) a relatively small RNZ.
-The "Redemption" blockade of the Romulan border would be simpler technically if RNZ was small. But Klingon space would have to physically border the RNZ for this episode to work. It is a bit problematic to assume that Feds and Klingons would both have a well-defined border next to this single star system. One would assume such a state of affairs would have required a big war in the past, and at least one specific mention in the episodes.
-The Gamma Hydra affair in "The Deadly Years" and STII could support either argument. GH would have to be located very close to the RNZ for a shortcut to SB10 to be necessary by pure coincidence. If GH was farther away than a couple of lightyears, then an incredible coincidence would be needed for SB10 to lie exactly on the line connecting GH and RNZ. But GH could indeed be a nearby system, a famous historical one even, so that it would feature in SF Academy simulations as the token "We are near the Neutral Zone" indicator. And the Zone in STII does look really small.
-A multi-system RNZ is quite unlikely if we really interpret the Zone to be a sphere 1 ly across. A single-system one isn't likely if the shell of the sphere is 1 ly thick. What is the exact reference in "The Defector"?
Then again, the TNG RNZ could be different from the TOS RNZ, perhaps renegotiated after the Romulans gained warp drive and stepped up their demands.
Timo Saloniemi
And the "Redemption" blockade was on the border between the Klingons and Romulans, right? That border could be much smaller than the one between the Feds and the Romulans.
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me: "I need a new sig..."
CC: "Well create one."
-why I don't have a real signature
The "Redemption" incident could have taken place in may locations:
1) In an actual region of space where the Romulan NZ touches Klingon territory
2) In a region of Klingon space that is nearest to the RNZ even if there is a narrow gap of unclaimed or UFP-held space in between
3) In UFP space just outside the RNZ, on the side that is facing the Klingons.
The most logical place to stop the Romulans would be 3), since then the Romulans would have the least chance of outflanking the blockade, and the Feds wouldn't have to leave their own space. But the dialogue implies the Feds did leave UFP space and went into Klingon space to effect the blockade. This implies the border between the RNZ and Klingon space is a narrow bottleneck area (with or without a gap between the two Empires) since such a tiny fleet could effectively create a blockade. Why would the Romulans use this bottleneck? Why not fly around in UFP or other non-Klingon space until they found a more vulnerable stretch of Klingon border?
Timo Saloniemi
Regarding "Redemption", Romulan cloaking technology is probably more advanced then that of the Klingons. The Romulans might have simply been taking the most direct route towards their destination on the assumption that the Klingons couldn't detect them if they tried, and the thought of the Federation sending ships into Klingon space to patrol the border might not have been considered.
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"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven
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me: "I need a new sig..."
CC: "Well create one."
-why I don't have a real signature
[This message has been edited by TSN (edited March 27, 2000).]
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"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven
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me: "I need a new sig..."
CC: "Well create one."
-why I don't have a real signature