Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Rear-Admiral (LH) or Commodore?

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

In the USN, the rank of "Commodore" was abolished and the rank of Rear-Admiral divided into "Lower Half" and "Upper Half" ...

My question: being as we've NEVER seen a Commodore in TNG, DS9, OR Voyager, what is appropriate? Has modern- Starfleet done the same, or does the rank still exist?

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Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Well, I say Commodore is still around, simply for the fact that we've never seen a single "admiral" pip yet.

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

It was "Commodore" in TOS, so I assume that it is "Commodore" in TNG, DS9 and VOY too.

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[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited September 09, 2000).]

Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :

I heartily agree. I think that the whole Rear Admiral lower-half thing is idiotic (and was only instituted by the Navy to have all flag officers bear the name "Admiral" somewhere in their titles). Many on this board assume that Commodores (or any one-pip flag rank, whatever the name)don't exist, because in the thirteen years since the TNG era began we have never seen or heard of one. Indeed, the rank Commodore has not been mentioned since ST:TMP. This means nothing. There are many things which have never been stated or shown in the four Star Trek series (and nine movies), but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The ranks of Vice-Admiral and Rear-Admiral weren't mentioned until later seasons of DS9 (of course there had been varying pips indicating multiple levels of admiral, dating back to early TNG).
In other words until it is stated in a Star Trek episode or movie, I will continue to believe that Commodore exists, as a rank not a title. For those who go on about Commodore being a position, not a rank-Commodore was originally the lowest flag officer rank in the US Navy(where RADM LH is now as JeffeKarrde mentioned). It obviously was also a rank in TOS, and it even had the naval insignia for it even though the non-flag officer ranking insignias were different.

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[This message has been edited by Obi Juan (edited September 09, 2000).]

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Ok, that'll help clear things up.

COMMODORE Robert DeSoto, of the USS 'Hood' ... =)

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

There may be nothing canon against commodores in the TNG period, but the general attitude of the producers seems to be that said rank has fallen out of favor.

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Did someone touch a nerve there Obi Juan?

Now, you may think it's idiotic, but since, as Sol said, the rank is no longer used in the post TNG era, and likely will never be used as the people who write the show don't like it, then I think it's safe to say that it no longer exists.

You may think it's idiotic, but you can't put your fingers in your ears and hum until it changes.

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Unless we see someone promoted directly from Captain to Rear Admiral (the two-pip kind) or something like that, there's no reason to think the rank doesn't exist. Starfleet seems to use a system similar to the USN's anyway.

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Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

As I recall, the only mention of the term "commodore" EVER in the 24th-century shows was TNG's "The Enemy," when Geordi kept calling Bochra "commodore."

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Well, if Starfleet seems to use a system similar to the USN, and the USN no longer uses the rank of Commodore, then Starfleet no longer uses the rank of Commodore surely?

And apart from that, the main reason why we can say that the rank doesn't exist is because the writers of teh show say it no longer exists. And they'd know, surely? Jeez...

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

The rank would still exist under the name "Rear Admiral (lower half)," then.

The writers of the show are not the show, remember.

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Posted by Savar on :

You can't make too many comparisons between the USN and Starfleet on the issue if rank. In the USN, officers of various grades command vessels approporiate to their rank. In Star Trek, only Captains command starships.

In TOS, commodores typically commanded starbases. Commodores Stone, Stocker, and Mendez commanded Starbases 12, 10, and 6, respectively. Commodore Matt Decker commanded the USS Constellation, eventually destroyed by the planet-killing doomsday machine.

In the USN, the rank of Commodore was used as a courtesy title for Captains commanding squadrons or smaller battle groups of ships. It was also an actual rank from 1862 to 1899 and was reestablished during World War II and again briefly between 1983 and 1986.

Subdivision of flag ranks serve a purpose. First is the issue of pay grade, probably not a concern for the officers of the 23rd or 24th century since only Ferengis seem to use money anymore... Secondly, the different grades have different commands and/or responsibilities. Starfleet would retain the Commodore rank if it had need for it. An intermediate rank between Captain and Admiral, usually commanding a Starbase and coordinating the activities of the ships in his/her sector makes perfect sense. In the case of Matt Decker, he commanded a ship of the First Class, as was done in the USN. He may also have been in charge of a fleet of ships, using the Constellation as a field HQ.

Regardless of whether the writers "like" the Commodore rank or not (personally I think its kinda cool), the fact is that we do know that the Commodore rank WAS "official" at least up until the end of the original Trek Movie era. Robert Fletcher designed the entire movie wardrobe as well as all the ranks and divisions in Starfleet and the Commodore rank was among them. The fact that we never saw it is meaningless. We didn't see any ranks above Rear Admiral until STIII. Fletcher's notes on rank can be viewed at the Star Trek - The Interim Years - Ranks page.

The history behind the rank of Commodore is rather interesting. If you would like to know the facts, check out this page from the Naval Historical Center.

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

Funny. This guy has Fletcher's notes on his site but he uses a wrong NCO rank pin system.

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

Posted by Savar on :

Indeed he goes astray with the Senior and Master Chief Petty Officer Ranks. Can't fathom why. But, like he says on his site, seeing Fletcher's notes do put an end to the debates regarding "official" rank devices.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Or then they don't. After all, we know for sure that a person wearing a Lt.Cmdr's pin (as intended by Fletcher) is properly called a Lieutenant by her seniors. So perhaps the pin Fletcher designed for Lt.Cmdr is actually a Lt (sg) pin in proper Starfleet usage?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
After all, we know for sure that a person wearing a Lt.Cmdr's pin (as intended by Fletcher) is properly called a Lieutenant by her seniors.

AFAIR the only person called Lt. and wearing the Lt. Cmdr.-Pin was Valeris. And this was an error of the costume-department.

quote:
So perhaps the pin Fletcher designed for Lt.Cmdr is actually a Lt (sg) pin in proper Starfleet usage?

Nope, Rand wears the Lt. Cmdr.-Pin and she was called Commander.

Pic (Fact Files): http://www.geocities.com/fitz8472/startrek/uniforms/mov_pin_example_ltcmdr3.jpg

Script:
RAND: All right, gamma shift. Time to defend the Federation against gaseous anomalies.
JANEWAY: Gaseous anomalies. We were charting a gaseous anomaly on Voyager.
TUVOK: And that's when my problem began.
JANEWAY: That's more than a coincidence.

RAND: How are you this morning, Ensign?
TUVOK: I am well, Commander. Thank you.
RAND: I thought you might like to see some of this morning's com traffic before you went on duty. There's a message from the Yorktown I think you might be interested in. It's from your father.
TUVOK: Thank you.
RAND: You're not gonna have time to drink that, you know. You're due on the bridge in five minutes.
TUVOK: It's not for me. It's for the captain. I've observed that Captain Sulu drinks a cup of tea each morning. I thought he might enjoy a Vulcan blend.
RAND: Oh, I see. Trying to make lieutenant in your first month? I wish I'd have thought of that when I was your age. Took me three years just to make ensign.
TUVOK: I assure you, I have no ulterior motive.
RAND: Whatever you say, Ensign. See you on the bridge.
JANEWAY: You've never brought me tea.

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"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."

[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited September 12, 2000).]