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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Malnurtured Snay</b> <br /><small>Member # 411</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,9,9,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 09, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:31 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> In the USN, the rank of "Commodore" was abolished and the rank of Rear-Admiral divided into "Lower Half" and "Upper Half" ... <P>My question: being as we've NEVER seen a Commodore in TNG, DS9, OR Voyager, what is appropriate? Has modern- Starfleet done the same, or does the rank still exist? <P>------------------<BR>HowsaboutdemO's?<P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Fabrux</b> <br /><small>Member # 71</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,9,9,41,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 09, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:41 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, I say Commodore is still around, simply for the fact that we've never seen a single "admiral" pip yet. <IMG SRC="http://flare.solareclipse.net/smile.gif"><P>------------------<BR>"Incest! A game the whole family can play!"<BR>-Jonah Rapp <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Spike</b> <br /><small>Member # 322</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,9,10,44,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 09, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:44 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> It was "Commodore" in TOS, so I assume that it is "Commodore" in TNG, DS9 and VOY too.<P>------------------<BR><A HREF="http://fitz8472.hypermart.net" TARGET=_blank>"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."</A><P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited September 09, 2000).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Obi Juan</b> <br /><small>Member # 90</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,9,20,37,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 09, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:37 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I heartily agree. I think that the whole Rear Admiral lower-half thing is idiotic (and was only instituted by the Navy to have all flag officers bear the name "Admiral" somewhere in their titles). Many on this board assume that Commodores (or any one-pip flag rank, whatever the name)don't exist, because in the thirteen years since the TNG era began we have never seen or heard of one. Indeed, the rank Commodore has not been mentioned since ST:TMP. This means nothing. There are many things which have never been stated or shown in the four Star Trek series (and nine movies), but that doesn't mean they don't exist. The ranks of Vice-Admiral and Rear-Admiral weren't mentioned until later seasons of DS9 (of course there had been varying pips indicating multiple levels of admiral, dating back to early TNG). <BR>In other words until it is stated in a Star Trek episode or movie, I will continue to believe that Commodore exists, as a rank not a title. For those who go on about Commodore being a position, not a rank-Commodore was originally the lowest flag officer rank in the US Navy(where RADM LH is now as JeffeKarrde mentioned). It obviously was also a rank in TOS, and it even had the naval insignia for it even though the non-flag officer ranking insignias were different.<P>------------------<BR>"Elvis is in everybody<BR>Everybody except for one person that is. <BR>The evil opposite of Elvis. <BR>The anti-Elvis."<BR>-Mojo Nixon<p>[This message has been edited by Obi Juan (edited September 09, 2000).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Malnurtured Snay</b> <br /><small>Member # 411</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,9,22,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 09, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:01 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Ok, that'll help clear things up.<P>COMMODORE Robert DeSoto, of the USS 'Hood' ... =)<P>------------------<BR>HowsaboutdemO's?<P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,10,4,2,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 10, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:02 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> There may be nothing canon against commodores in the TNG period, but the general attitude of the producers seems to be that said rank has fallen out of favor.<P>------------------<BR>Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.<BR>--<BR>Ambrose Bierce<BR>****<BR><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/1247/story.html" TARGET=_blank>Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! It's useless to struggle.</A><P><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>PsyLiam</b> <br /><small>Member # 73</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,10,7,39,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 10, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:39 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Did someone touch a nerve there Obi Juan?<P>Now, you may think it's idiotic, but since, as Sol said, the rank is no longer used in the post TNG era, and likely will never be used as the people who write the show don't like it, then I think it's safe to say that it no longer exists.<P>You may think it's idiotic, but you can't put your fingers in your ears and hum until it changes.<P>------------------<BR>"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - <I>Guido Anchovy</I><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Aethelwer</b> <br /><small>Member # 36</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,10,10,33,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 10, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:33 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Unless we see someone promoted directly from Captain to Rear Admiral (the two-pip kind) or something like that, there's no reason to think the rank doesn't exist. Starfleet seems to use a system similar to the USN's anyway.<P>------------------<BR><A HREF="http://frankg.dgne.com/" TARGET=_blank>Frank's Home Page</A><BR>"I'd like to have a hard one, though..." - Fabrux <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Shik</b> <br /><small>Member # 343</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,10,11,43,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 10, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:43 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> As I recall, the only mention of the term "commodore" EVER in the 24th-century shows was TNG's "The Enemy," when Geordi kept calling Bochra "commodore."<P>------------------<BR>"There are three things I HATE, Jet: kids..pets..& women with attitudes. So WHY do we have all THREE on BOARD?!?"--Spike Spiegel<P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>PsyLiam</b> <br /><small>Member # 73</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,10,15,16,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 10, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:16 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, if Starfleet seems to use a system similar to the USN, and the USN no longer uses the rank of Commodore, then Starfleet no longer uses the rank of Commodore surely?<P>And apart from that, the main reason why we can say that the rank doesn't exist is because the writers of teh show say it no longer exists. And they'd know, surely? Jeez...<P>------------------<BR>"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - <I>Guido Anchovy</I><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Aethelwer</b> <br /><small>Member # 36</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,10,15,18,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 10, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:18 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The rank would still exist under the name "Rear Admiral (lower half)," then.<P>The writers of the show are not the show, remember.<P>------------------<BR><A HREF="http://frankg.dgne.com/" TARGET=_blank>Frank's Home Page</A><BR>"I'd like to have a hard one, though..." - Fabrux <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Savar</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,11,1,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 11, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:31 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> You can't make too many comparisons between the USN and Starfleet on the issue if rank. In the USN, officers of various grades command vessels approporiate to their rank. In Star Trek, only Captains command starships.<P>In TOS, commodores typically commanded starbases. Commodores Stone, Stocker, and Mendez commanded Starbases 12, 10, and 6, respectively. Commodore Matt Decker commanded the USS Constellation, eventually destroyed by the planet-killing doomsday machine.<P>In the USN, the rank of Commodore was used as a courtesy title for Captains commanding squadrons or smaller battle groups of ships. It was also an actual rank from 1862 to 1899 and was reestablished during World War II and again briefly between 1983 and 1986.<P>Subdivision of flag ranks serve a purpose. First is the issue of pay grade, probably not a concern for the officers of the 23rd or 24th century since only Ferengis seem to use money anymore... Secondly, the different grades have different commands and/or responsibilities. Starfleet would retain the Commodore rank if it had need for it. An intermediate rank between Captain and Admiral, usually commanding a Starbase and coordinating the activities of the ships in his/her sector makes perfect sense. In the case of Matt Decker, he commanded a ship of the First Class, as was done in the USN. He may also have been in charge of a fleet of ships, using the Constellation as a field HQ.<P>Regardless of whether the writers "like" the Commodore rank or not (personally I think its kinda cool), the fact is that we do know that the Commodore rank WAS "official" at least up until the end of the original Trek Movie era. Robert Fletcher designed the entire movie wardrobe as well as all the ranks and divisions in Starfleet and the Commodore rank was among them. The fact that we never saw it is meaningless. We didn't see any ranks above Rear Admiral until STIII. Fletcher's notes on rank can be viewed at the <A HREF="http://www.starbase369.freeserve.co.uk/ranks.html" TARGET=_blank>Star Trek - The Interim Years - Ranks</A> page. <P>The history behind the rank of Commodore is rather interesting. If you would like to know the facts, check out this page from the <A HREF="http://history.navy.mil/trivia/triv4-5k.htm" TARGET=_blank>Naval Historical Center</A>. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Spike</b> <br /><small>Member # 322</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,11,7,33,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 11, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:33 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Funny. This guy has Fletcher's notes on his site but he uses a wrong NCO rank pin system.<P>------------------<BR><A HREF="http://fitz8472.hypermart.net" TARGET=_blank>"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."</A><P><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Savar</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,12,0,52,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 12, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:52 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Indeed he goes astray with the Senior and Master Chief Petty Officer Ranks. Can't fathom why. But, like he says on his site, seeing Fletcher's notes do put an end to the debates regarding "official" rank devices. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Timo</b> <br /><small>Member # 245</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,12,3,57,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 12, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:57 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Or then they don't. After all, we know for sure that a person wearing a Lt.Cmdr's pin (as intended by Fletcher) is properly called a Lieutenant by her seniors. So perhaps the pin Fletcher designed for Lt.Cmdr is actually a Lt (sg) pin in proper Starfleet usage? <IMG SRC="http://flare.solareclipse.net/smile.gif"><P>Timo Saloniemi<P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Spike</b> <br /><small>Member # 322</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,8,12,7,46,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 12, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:46 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>After all, we know for sure that a person wearing a Lt.Cmdr's pin (as intended by Fletcher) is properly called a Lieutenant by her seniors.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>AFAIR the only person called Lt. and wearing the Lt. Cmdr.-Pin was Valeris. And this was an error of the costume-department.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>So perhaps the pin Fletcher designed for Lt.Cmdr is actually a Lt (sg) pin in proper Starfleet usage?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nope, Rand wears the Lt. Cmdr.-Pin and she was called Commander. <P>Pic (Fact Files): <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/fitz8472/startrek/uniforms/mov_pin_example_ltcmdr3.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://www.geocities.com/fitz8472/startrek/uniforms/mov_pin_example_ltcmdr3.jpg</A> <P>Script:<BR>RAND: All right, gamma shift. Time to defend the Federation against gaseous anomalies. <BR>JANEWAY: Gaseous anomalies. We were charting a gaseous anomaly on Voyager. <BR>TUVOK: And that's when my problem began. <BR>JANEWAY: That's more than a coincidence. <P>RAND: How are you this morning, Ensign? <BR>TUVOK: I am well, <B>Commander</B>. Thank you. <BR>RAND: I thought you might like to see some of this morning's com traffic before you went on duty. There's a message from the Yorktown I think you might be interested in. It's from your father. <BR>TUVOK: Thank you. <BR>RAND: You're not gonna have time to drink that, you know. You're due on the bridge in five minutes. <BR>TUVOK: It's not for me. It's for the captain. I've observed that Captain Sulu drinks a cup of tea each morning. I thought he might enjoy a Vulcan blend. <BR>RAND: Oh, I see. Trying to make lieutenant in your first month? I wish I'd have thought of that when I was your age. Took me three years just to make ensign. <BR>TUVOK: I assure you, I have no ulterior motive. <BR>RAND: Whatever you say, Ensign. See you on the bridge. <BR>JANEWAY: You've never brought me tea. <P>------------------<BR><A HREF="http://fitz8472.hypermart.net" TARGET=_blank>"Second star to the right, and then straight on till morning."</A><P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited September 12, 2000).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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