Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Klingons and Cardassians

This is topic Klingons and Cardassians in forum General Trek at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://flare.solareclipse.net/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/430.html

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

I have a very simple question, actually:
How come the Klingons can mobilize entire fleets near the Cardassian border? On all the conventional maps, the Klingon Empire lays on the opposite side of the Federation. So why does the Federation allow such fleet build-ups in what is possibly their territory.
Also, if the Klingons wanted to get around they UFP, they'd need to go through Romulan space.

Or, they went 'over' UFP territory, and maybe the Cardassian Union even lies 'above' the UFP.

------------------
"Dynamics is like playing hockey with a flexible hockey stick"
-My Physics teacher
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Ah, the big 3D map problem. Both the Klingons and the Romulans have managed to get to DS9 and decloak their vessels there without anyone knowing they were coming.

I'm blaming it one the cloaking devices here, for the moment.

------------------
Buffy: "See, this is a school. And we have students and they check out books and then they learn things."
Giles: "I was beginning to suspect that was a myth."
- Buffy: The Vampire Slayer

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

The galaxy's not flat, y'know...

------------------
"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

It's also, like, hugely huge. Plenty of space to go anywhere you please.

------------------
love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

I agree with all the people who responded that space is huge, and the empires must be incredibly "leaky" as a result of this. Only very small areas of the border surfaces can be efficiently monitored, much less guarded.

And the Klingon fleet WAS traveling under cloak. They could have gone straight through the Federation, as long as they didn't go too near the regions monitored by tachyon beam nets. And if the Negh'Var traveled uncloaked, the sensor nets might have been fooled by her "noise footprint" which would have helped hide the cloaked ships trailing after her.

What Martok said in "Way of the Warrior" seemed to confirm that the fleet had performed a long voyage. Why did the Klingons stop at DS9 at all? One reason would have been to wait for the correct moment, perhaps to garner some UFP support. But couldn't the fleet have done that while floating cloaked in deep space? Perhaps not. Perhaps the long voyage had been so taxing that the Klingon fleet really HAD to rest and resupply at DS9.

And Klingons do have a history of sending "long shot" missions, from that sleeper ship in "The Emissary" to the big fleet during the Second Empire that went against the Breen and disappeared. They certainly aren't limited to fighting close to their own borders.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Was there an actual episode tied to the Klingon attack on the Breen or just the "pep-talk" in the Dominion-arc?

------------------
So, how's that Survivor-contest coming along, Newt?
-Well not very well at the MOMENT, everyone seems to have died.
-Gee, that's bad. Those Aliens bugging you yet?
-Not really, they mostly come at night mostly...

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

It was an offhand remark by Worf to Dax while the two were imprisoned by the Breen. In "Strange Bedfellows", I think. No closer info was given - it would have been very interesting to hear when this fleet sailed out. If Klingons divide their history into "Empires" and "non-Empires", and the Second Empire was a period when an actual Emperor ruled... Why, it would mean that either this fleet sailed out after Kahless was cloned (that is, very recently - and somehow Worf sounded as if speaking of ancient history), or then prior to the 21st century and thus prior to Earth's discovery of warp...

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

THE KLINGONS SPENDT 8 WEEKS AT WArp 9 to get to the station in way of the warrior and during the war they placed fleets where it was considered important by the alliance.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Timo: Well, the Klingon Empire was stil referred to as "the Klingon Empire", even w/o an emperor...

------------------
"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

The Klingons spendt between 4-8 weeks travelling at warp towards DS9 the reason they decloaked was because supplies were low and DS9 was the only federation facility in the flight path towards Cardassia. When they did invade Cardassia was almost invaded but thanks to the advanced warning the ruling council were evacuated to Dukat's ship and headed to the Border at maximum warpage of a Galor class. They were attacked on route when the Defiant intervened. During the War constant fleets were pouring out of the Klingon Empire. The Federation were also constantly pouring fleets out of every starbase and spacedocks in Federation space. The Romulans were sending ships from their bases near the Neutral Zone and sending them across Federation Space to Bajor
SUMMARY
KLINGONS AND FEDERATION TOKE MORE LOSSES THEN ROMULANS

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

When you're allies in a war borders like the Klingon Neutral Zone can be ignored. (By the way, the Neutral Zone was disbanded in ST VI) So obviously, Starfleet has no problem with a few Klingon ships in their territory. During a war, you do NOT care about border violations because you are in a war!

------------------
Predict the unpredictable, but how do you unpredict the unpredictable?

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

But as of the start of WotW, The Federation wasn't AT war. In fact, if I remember correctly, they weren't at war even at the end of it. The situation was "tense". The war didn't start until after the end of season 4, and then ended about 20 minutes into "By Inferno's Light".

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

During early TNG, it seemed as if Klingons were some sort of uneasy partners who mostly kept to themselves (they would come to demand for prisoners to be turned over, or would loiter near Fed ships in deep and possibly neutral space). Late TNG amended that towards the direction of "uneasy", stating that the Klingons had kept on raiding the Federation until seven years before "Aquiel". DS9 further directed the Klingons towards "noisy but affable drunkards" unless they were needed as villains, and then it took a special "evil" Klingon to make a good villain.

In these circumstances, I'd think the Feds could allow Klingon ships to move in Fed space, but would still be somewhat concerned about what they were up to. If they were not planning a military attack or a piracy run, then at least they were potentially rabble-rousing barflies, so they would have to be watched. I'd think Starfleet would keep tracking all Klingon ships in Fed space and suspecting the worst.

This in mind, I doubt the Klingon fleet traveled to DS9 uncloaked. It is possible that the Negh'Var was uncloaked, and masked the cloaked fleet with her engine noise or something - but then I would have expected Starfleet to warn Sisko that this ship was approaching. No, it seems likeliest that the Klingons did the whole trip cloaked and without the UFP knowing.

Mind you, it seems that Klingons always cloak when there is no reason NOT to. Even their civilian liners regularly travel under cloak, at least as per "Rules of Engagement". Then again, *Romulans* also prefer cloaking over non-cloaking. I'd think Starfleet would have a keen interest in trying to spot each and every cloaked ship in UFP space. If they couldn't spot the Klingon fleet, then a Romulan fleet on its way to harm Earth could also have gotten through. Does that sound right?

But perhaps only certain areas within the UFP are cloakproof, by the virtue of tachyon nets and the like, and the Klingons specifically avoided those. The Feds would only defend against invasion (towards their
planets), not against trespassing (past their planets).

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

KLINGONS AND FEDERATION TOKE MORE...

Like, far out, man...

...LOSSES THEN ROMULANS

Aw.

------------------
"I do prefer the arse, but you can't dismiss the leg. They're joined at the hip, so to speak."

- Liam Kavanagh

Posted by Dax (Member # 191) on :

On the subject of cloaked fleets, wouldn't it be all too easy for one of the ships to accidently run into one of the other ships in the gathering? After all, no single ship can see or detect where any of the other cloaked vessels are - seems like chaos to me.

------------------
"Forgive me if I don't share your euphoria!" (Weyoun to Dukat, Tears of the Prophets)
Dax's Ships of STAR TREK

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Vogon: Was that some sort of Trek-haiku?

------------------
And keep your foot off that blasted samoflanche!

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

The thing is (and this has always bugged me) cloaking doens't seem like a very "honourable" tactic. It fits in with the Romulan mind-set perfectly (sitting back, watching others, staying in the shadows and shouting "boo occasionally), after all, it was invented for them.

Klingons though. They really should fly unlcoaked everywhere. Why are they hiding. Warriors do not hide, they confront! And more random "honour blabberings" (they really should get Dinobot and Worf together).

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Er, I think I've heard reference to some sort of tachyon sensor net on the Romulan border ... not sure, though.

It might make sense with the Klingons, as long as they decloaked before attacking (i.e. -- they wouldn't begin an attack run under cloak, decloak in order to fire, then recloak), but would instead uncloak, begin the attack run, and then re-cloak if they were going to retreat (oh, right, Klingons ... I mean, "strategic withdrawl")

I've also found the Klingons to be modeled loosely on Feudal Japan -- and didn't Ninjas like to be unseen and unheard before they struck?

------------------
Can anyone say premature ejac ... er, election?

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Yes, and traditional ninjas lacked any moral whatsoever. Samurais OTOH... I've always compared klingons to samurais and their bushido.

I think the klingon policy is comparable to a bully child. "I make the rules and change them so that I win". That's also why they are the worst diplomats in the universe, too.
I think that klingon sig applies, "dishonor is very subjective". In "WotW" Worf said, although with a bit of lack of faith in his voice, "Honor lies in winning the battle" or something.
So their ends justify the means.

And just like klingons, samurais often sidestepped the rule of honor by hiring ninjas to do their dirtywork, (yeah, like that left them in the clear...)

When I think of it, many asian societies is like that. It's dishonorable to ask someone a question they don't know the answer too, so everyone lies all the time instead.
- Can you drive to Bangkok Royal Hotel?
- Why absolutely!!! Lalalalalaa... (happened to friend of mine)

------------------
And keep your foot off that blasted samoflanche!

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Besides, aside from Worf, most of the Klingons we've seen have taken a rather pragmatic approach to matters of honor. It's more believable and interesting to have the Klingon honor code be a living, mutable system rather than a set of unbreakable commandments, anyway.

------------------
love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

It would seem that the rules can be taken to whatever the Klingon reading them feels is thier context.

------------------
I am going to buy Japanese cars from now on, because the auto workers got the day off to vote and the state went to Gore, so I want to see how many we can get unemployed.
From The Port Huron Times-Herald talk back section.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Klingons preach what they do not practice.

Its quite sad.

------------------
"When they come, kill them. We're not here to make friends." -- Connor

"But you're my friend." -- Duncan

"Count yourself lucky." -- Connor

Highlander: The Element of Fire

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

*paulreisermode* Sad? It's pathetic!