Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Galaxy Map

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Posted by DARKSTAR on :

http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/galaxy.gif

(Edited by Daryus to fix link & change image format. You can now ignore all the future posts that say 'what the hell' etc as the thing now works. )

[This message has been edited by Daryus Aden (edited January 31, 2001).]

Posted by Saiyanman Benjita (Member # 122) on :

uh... what the hell?

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[This message has been edited by Saiyanman Benjita (edited January 30, 2001).]

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

You...um...actually have to upload something. That link just goes to the upload page.

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Posted by DARKSTAR on :

Here's the map http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/galxy%20map%202377%20updated.bmp

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Bitmap?!

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Posted by The Talented Mr. Gurgeh (Member # 318) on :

All I'm getting on my browser is gibberish.

Yes, I can see clearly the border between the "TTTeee��| | || HHHHHEEECCCDDDBBB999---" and the Federation.

The quadrants are clearly labelled, and the "��" space issue has finally been resolved.

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*Bed made from solid stone explodes*
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[This message has been edited by Gurgeh (edited January 31, 2001).]

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

Tahna's Note: Hmm.... so it's not there.....

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited January 31, 2001).]

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Its now accessable. Click the link in the first post.

Its a very average map, IMHO. The Federation etc are way too small, and there are no markings indicating who is who. But the positioning seems good.

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Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

I like the map modified by Timo better.

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
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Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them

"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Yah, Timo's map is cool, but wasn't Tin Man in orbit of Beta Stromgren? I wouldn't think it would be that far out if the Enterprise was able to get there.

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Heh, me too. Everything on this Darkstar map is arbitrarily drawn. There's no evidence in any way of what the territory shapes are, and as usual Darkstar doesn't back any of it up.

Admittedly though, if there's one innovation on this map, it's that Borg Space is a horseshoe, thus explaining why we've been meeting up with them an awful lot in the last two years.

Mark

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Posted by Saiyanman Benjita (Member # 122) on :

Uh.. Darkstar? what are the coloured lines?

And who are the Cyn's?

-View Askew disclaimer "DOGMA"

Saiyanman Benjita's Dragonball Page

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

Cyn's is an abbriviation for the Cyntherians who appeared in TNG

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

That was the Cytherians...but OK...

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"You just push off....and the falling sort of happens on its own." ---Dave Titus

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

HERE A MODIFIED MAP WITH AL TERRIRTORY'S LABBELLED http://www.majinc-web.com/startrek/Map_of_the_Galaxy.jpg

Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :

On that note, has anyone ever done a galaxy map, somewhat like Timo's...only for Babylon 5?

Or on second thought, maybe there's not enough information in the series... meh...

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[This message has been edited by Mucus (edited February 01, 2001).]

Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :

There actually IS something like that, my phlegmatic fried...I'll have to rescour the zillions of links in my faves to find it again, though.

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"You just push off....and the falling sort of happens on its own." ---Dave Titus

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I don't see Al's territory labelled on there at all...

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[This message has been edited by TSN (edited February 01, 2001).]

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

A bab-five map would be nice. I assume vorlon territory and shadow territory take up a lot of space...
How fast is their jumpgates and hyperspace? Not like Star Wars, huh? But there was never much mention about "uncharted territory" in bab.

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Posted by Quatre Winner (Member # 464) on :

There was one on Voltair's (sp) Encyclopedia Xenobiologica but it's long gone now...

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

That Timo edited map - nice but, there is no way I'd have Tholian and Breen space so big - especially compared to Cardassian and Romulan space. Klingon space wouldn't be as big as Fed space - it'd be too hard for the Klingons to subjugate so many races/planets.

Or even populate them themselves.

Andrew

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"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Well, I wanted to make the Cardassians puny, and the Romulans are confined inside that Neutral Zone anyway - a Zone created two centuries before TNG, at a time when ships were slow and an empire of the size shown was huge. They represent "concentrated nastiness" as opposed to the other, more widely spread opponents of the UFP.

Then again, this is just the core region of the supposedly 8,000 ly dia. Federation, which has other holdings in the directions of Rigel and Deneb, off the map. In contrast, the Klingons probably don't extend much outside the map area. This puts them and the Breen and Tholian holdings in perspective (although I made sure that the Breen and the Tholians could theoretically extend past the map area).

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Antagonist (Member # 484) on :

Perhaps I'm unaware of the reason, but has anybody adressed the reason why borg and krenim space both surround this seemingly uninhabited (or unlabeled) region of space? Perhaps I missed somethinng in the episodes because I stoppd watching Voyager for two years or so.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Well, Voyager jumped about 10,000 light years when Kes left. That may be the gap there.

Personally I find the idea that the Borg have "space" unrealistic. Sure they may have areas of high concentration. This would undoubtedly be where they had their beginnings as the Collective. But they go everywhere. They're spread thoughout the galaxy. I don't think they have any defined borders.

Posted by Antagonist (Member # 484) on :

I tend to agree. But you have to imagine that the area indicated in that map probably is their consentrated space. With all "age of the borg" arguments aside, their method of integrating other civilizations into theirs is highly effective, and so I assume they would be able to expand and develop a large amount of space like what is indicated on the map.

[This message has been edited by The Antagonist (edited February 06, 2001).]

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Timo,

I understood the Romulan Neutral Zone only to block expansion of the RSE into Federation territory, not that it completely surrounds their empire. Can they not expand "out the back door", so to speak?

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Posted by Antagonist (Member # 484) on :

Taking a look at Timo's map, I noticed that the Romulan Empire takes up a very small portion of space, smaller than I would have thought.

But something bothers me when I look at this. The Dominion was able to enter a no-fire agreement with the RSE, yes? This would lead me to believe that the RSE was able to somehow meet with the dominion who at the time occupied cardassian space, so the question is raised in my mind: how did they meet with each other if the UFP is jammed between them? Surely they didn't go around, it's a huge inconvienience to both sides and probably would take several months, weeks at best. And it seems to me that striking such a deal over subspace communication would be difficult as well when once considers the distance again. Wihtout communication relay boost stations the arrived message could very well look like a Jem'Hadar sat on the keyboard and farted.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

The reason I make RNZ so compact and almost completely enclosed is that I want to shove a couple of real-life and noncanon references in. Canon alone would not completely justify such a small RSE. But I want to have the RNZ roughly oval-shaped and I want the homeworlds at Triangulum (Australe) to keep with Diane Duane's books, and I want Gamma Hydra (a real star with a fixed location) in Federation space but near an ovoid Neutral Zone of some sort (ST2; not necessarily the RNZ, since there were Klingons in it... But then there was this alliance thing) - so voila! It's not something I expect many people to be satisfied with, though. Nyah, nyah to you.

And I don't think warfleets or emissaries travel around empires. They go *through* them. The borders of empires aren't sealed, at least if you operate a cloaked ship (or a fast ship). All of the empires on this compact map are so close to each other that they can share afternoon tea, regardless of whether there is a stretch of another empire between them or not.

This is a conscious choice to avoid making the map 3D. If I insisted on every given pair of empires sharing a physical border if there is a reference to a treaty or a war between them, then I'd have to go fully 3D and moreover give the empires weird tentacles to give sufficient "contact surfaces".

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Psi'a Meese on :

Timo, I just saw your map for the first time. Did "The Cage" not depict the Talos star group AS the Pleides? How did you resolve that?

Purrr...

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Re the Babylon 5 map There was some information mentioned in the series...

Firstly, when Mr. Morden was doing the deal with Mollari, he showed a schematic of the Milky Way galaxy... basically the Shadows would have it all except for one arm which was for the Centauri.

Secondly, the Major race's territory all sort of bordered with the Neutral Space within which the Babylon Stations were built.

I would say that the Centauri and the Narn boarder each other.

Sector 14?? where the time rift was/is was 3 hours? in normal space by Starfury.

The Minbari and the Centauri and the Drazi etc. have other races/worlds under their protection.

The Centauri were the first 'aliens' to make formal First Contact with Earth...

I think I want to go back and watch B5 again... ALL OF IT! I think I'd have to wait for the DVD releases to buy them all I think!?! DOes anyone know when they are going to be released? Better get a DVD player first

Andrew

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"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

If I could watch the series from start to finish, including all the movies, I'd do it. I just never wanted to jump in in the middle of it because I didn't think I'd understand it.

Posted by Antagonist (Member # 484) on :

Surely RSE traveling around in, not only the neutral zone, but the UFP using cloaking devices was a major oversight, and one that I find hard to believe hasn't been rectified in some amendment to the treaty. I realize that borders aren't necessarily closed absolutely, either, but (assuming cloaking technology doesn't porevent the following) during a time of war do you really think that somebody is going to let slip a RSE vessel through DEEP UFP space?

A three-dimensional map would be the second thing to go on my Trek Wish List (the first being absolute consistency, but as we all know or have observed, that is impossible), and it would help clear up distance issues.

If anybody knows of even a crude three dimensional map that I could take a gander at, I would be greatful. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by The Antagonist (edited February 07, 2001).]

Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :

Timo: I had read or heard something before about the Romulan homeworlds being around 128 Trianguli, but this star isn't listed in the internet stellar database. I think that the assigning of Trianguli to the Romulans is from fairly early fandom (early 1970s), probably from when stars were assigned for Andor and Tellar. This was a time when the Romulans and Klingon Empires were believed to lie to the south of the Federation (as shown in Franz Joseph's SFTM). Anyway Beta Trianguli Australis is only about 40 light years from earth and is consistent with non-warp capable Romulans, but also fits in with slow-warp Romulans. On the other hand, Delta and Alpha Trianguli are southwest of earth, where I think the SFTM puts the Romulans. Do Diane Duane's books mention specifically that Trianguli Australis is the Romulan home system or just "Trianguli"? Also, do her books date from during or after TNG was on the air (when the Klingons and Romulans were shown to be to the East of the Federation) or before?

One more comment: I think your attempt to use the neutral zone map of Balance of Terror is leading you astray. That map does not necessarily have the same orientation as the galaxy map (looking down on the galactic plane with the galactic core towards the top). Accepting another orientation would allow you to put that section of the NZ almost anywhere on the border. The way you have it now, the NZ is pretty far away from anyplace of interest and faces away from the heart of the Federation. I wouldn't think that the war took place all the way up there.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Yeah, 128 Tri is bound to be a fictional star - I believe Diane Duane is often intentionally avoiding using real star names, even though she uses real constellation names.

Her books place the Romulans solidly in Triangulum, not Triangulum Australe - neigboring stars are sometimes listed as XXX Arietis, and Aries certainly lies next to the Northern Triangle, not the Southern one. This I believe was reflected in the old Mandel starmaps, too - and it sort of makes sense, since Vulcan is in that direction as well. But it doesn't jibe with later map conceptions where Romulans almost always are to the "northeast" of Earth - so I did the little move to Australe, against the spirit but not the letter of the Duane books.

(I completely ignored the SFTM map in this context, since it was based on different premises of warp speeds and Trek history - I only took the parts novelists and other fans have perpetuated of it.)

I chose to keep the "BoT" map in the same orientation as in the episode, interpreting "up" as corewards, because that actually made it very simple to fit in a Duanesque-ST2'esque ovoid in the orientation shown in the DS9 TM (see how they all fit together despite being completely unrelated? ).

If I place Romulus and Remus smack in the middle of the asterism known as Tri Australe, and at a reasonable distance from Earth at that, then the entirety of a 100-ly ovoid (as Duane sez) fitted to match the curve of the "BoT" map segment fits just the way the DS9 TM map shows - half "above" and half "below" Earth's "latitude". It even fits into the gap reserved for Romulan space in the famous TNG map seen in "Conspiracy" and other episodes (assuming I fiddle with the intended scale)... And Gamma Hydra then is roughly at the spot from which the Enterprise viewer started zooming in wrt the ovoid NZ seen in ST2!

I sense divine inspiration here. None of the sources contributing to this conclusion could have been aware of the compatibility with the other sources...

As for why most of the RNZ is facing away from Earth... I'd guess that's exactly the area of space the Earthlings would be willing to cede to the Romulans. They would want the majority of Rommie territory pointing into space that is even less accessible to Earth than Romulus/Remus were at the time. And if the Romulans at the onset of the war were starfaring (sublight or low-warp), it would actually require a major coincidence for their homeworlds to be the worlds closest to Earth, so the RNZ would be shaped to reflect the fact that there were other Rom planets closer to Earth than the twinworlds.

Why not a southwest-northeast ovoid, then? Why a northwest-southeast major axis which doesn't point completely away from Earth? Uh, because the DS9 TM sez so . Or more seriously: if the Romulans came from Vulcan along a big looping course that circled Earth counterclockwise, the space known to them would be in this direction, and there might be Romulan planets there they wouldn't want to cede to Earth... That's why I placed Debrune and other "Gambit" early-Romulan locations in that region as well, to suggest the course of the exodus did this sort of a dogleg.

See, a rationalization for everything!

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Oops, not yet for quite everything. For the felines among us:

No, I don't think the Talos star group was described specifically as the Pleiades in "The Cage". It would make some sense for Talos to be in roughly that location, since it has to be between Rigel and Vega - but I wanted to put Talos right next to starbase 11 so that the travel times in "The Menagerie" would make sense, and I didn't want to put any of the TOS starbases very far away from Earth. So I just moved Talos along the Rigel-Vega axis until it got close enough for tango.

The Pleiades featured explicitly in TNG "Home Soil", where a group of terraformers was transforming Velara III located in that cluster.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

But, the neutral zone in ST2 was obviously intended to be Klingon. There were Klingons there, after all. :-)

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My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Timo,

Could you upload your map again?

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Timo's map.... you asked

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them

"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV

Posted by Antagonist (Member # 484) on :

I know this map is the interpretation of Timo's, but I just now realized the size of Tholian space. Why the hell haven't we seen more of them? There must be a reason and I just haven't recognized it.

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Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Isolationists...

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget
Star Trek: Gamma Quadrant
Star Trek: Legacy
Read them, rate them, got money, film them

"...and I remain on the far side of crazy, I remain the mortal enemy of man, no hundred dollar cure will save me..." WoV

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I've never gotten the impression that the Tholians are particularly isolationist in their outlook. K'Ehleyr was worried that the Tholians would get involved in a Klingon civil war, and they seemed rather interested in the wormhole and the politics surrounding it. Aloof, yes, but not isolationist.

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

Yeah, the Tholians are that big for two reasons:

1) The bigger they are, the more likely they are to appear all over the map and to carry political weight. If they were small, they would have to be close to where the action is to be politically significant, and that would mean placing them close to at least four things implied in dialogue: the Klingons, the Ferengi, the Feds, and DS9. That would make the center of the map even more crowded than it is now. By making them big, I can give them some stand-off distance (and justify their seat in the super-secret Antwerp negotiations of "Homefront").

2) The left side of the map was looking annoyingly empty

Yes, TSN, I know the ST2 zone probably wasn't intended to be the Romulan one (the writers of the movie probably had their references all mixed up, and thought that it would be the Klingons with the Neutral Zone and the Gamma Hydra connection). But I couldn't very well put the Klingons at Gamma Hydra, since that star is in a fixed location "up north" and thus clashes with so many other references to the preferred Klingon/Romulan ordering.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by SIR SIG on :

Timo: Is this an update over your earlier map?

And another thing, with the positioning of the Gorn. Some references I've seen would put it rim/spin of Sol and that the Tholians would be roughly were the gorn are now!

Something I came up with:

Cestus 3
Cetus 3
3 Cetus
Gamma Cetus
Gamma Ceti

From memory its about 80 odd ly rim/spin of Sol.

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An Aussie Trek Narrator