Why didn't the Enterprise just blow up the Reliant when they picked up the Genesis Wave? Surely the destruction of the Reliant would've stopped the Genesis Torpedo from "detonating", right?
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?
BUt perhaps they were worried that blowing up the Defiant would cause the device to go off prematurely, and would rather expend their efforts on the most viable alternative - getting the heck out of range. Alternatively, it may have been able to engulf the Enterprise regardless of how much the Genesis Wave had built up...
Mark
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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"
- Carl Sagan, "Contact"
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?
Mark
Me, fail Engrish? That's umpossible!
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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"
- Carl Sagan, "Contact"
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Nic: She's not a practicing lesbian. We need PRACTICING lesbians!
Me: I have a camcorder.
Nic: But no lesbians.
Me: Ahhh... no.
Nic: DAMN IT MAN! WE NEED LESBIANS! LOTS AND LOTS OF LESBIANS!
ICQ Conversation From January 23, 2001.
We saw Kruge's BoP survive a proximity blast in ST3 when the Enterprise was scuttled, but perhaps that scuttling was more controlled than the explosion that would be expected if Kirk fired at the already-damaged Reliant?
In other instances, shieldless ships have not survived if another starship has exploded in the immediate vicinity. Except perhaps for a couple of Defiant cases, and that tought little ship has body armor...
Timo Saloniemi
I don't think that the Reliant blowing up without the Genesis device would have created about the same size explosion as the Enterprise did. In fact, it might even have been less taking into account the smaller size of the Miranda-class vessels. Of course, we don't know what all happened during Enterprise's demise. Did she dump her matter and antimatter or not? The explosion, in my mind, seemed to be a bit "ineffective." And I mean that by referring to large hunk of Enterprise that survived the big boom.
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Nic: She's not a practicing lesbian. We need PRACTICING lesbians!
Me: I have a camcorder.
Nic: But no lesbians.
Me: Ahhh... no.
Nic: DAMN IT MAN! WE NEED LESBIANS! LOTS AND LOTS OF LESBIANS!
ICQ Conversation From January 23, 2001.
One is by mixing the matter and anti-matter, completely destroying the ship. For obvious reasons, this method is not employed when near a planet or other friendly starships/facilities, for fear of damaging said facilities.
Since the Enterprise was in planetary orbit, the computer probably switched from a matter/anti-matter mix to a self-destruct method utilizing explosive charges throughout the primary and secondary hulls. Perhaps the charges in the secondary hull couldn't be "instructed" by the computer to explode due to the damage inflicted by Khan and then Kruge's attacks.
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?
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Faster than light - no left or right.
Sure they needed some to power the vessel, but not a full load. . .
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"I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."
- Simon Sizer, 23/01/2001
I kind of doubt that the Enterprise-nil ejected any antimatter pods prior to destruction. After the big boom, the ship falls away and enters the planet's atmosphere. Don't we get a pretty clear view of the underside of the secondary hull? If someone has the movie handy, we can check and see 1) if the underside is visible and 2) if there is a hole where it looks like a hull plate blew off and allowed the pods to eject.
Jeff and Lee: you both bring up interesting points. Kruge's ship did deal a pretty good blow to the Enterprise's computer systems. The destruct signal may have not been able to reach those ordinance packages. But I think that it is more reasonable that that the ship may not have had a vast supply of antimatter onboard. She was being decommissioned and was probably in the process of being stripped of the good parts. Plus, Scotty may that statement that he wasn't planning on Kirk taking them into battle. The shields were useless they opted for photon torpedoes instead of phasers (the latter being dependent on warp energy).
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Nic: She's not a practicing lesbian. We need PRACTICING lesbians!
Me: I have a camcorder.
Nic: But no lesbians.
Me: Ahhh... no.
Nic: DAMN IT MAN! WE NEED LESBIANS! LOTS AND LOTS OF LESBIANS!
ICQ Conversation From January 23, 2001.
Timo Saloniemi
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"I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."
- Simon Sizer, 23/01/2001
Mark
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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"
- Carl Sagan, "Contact"
The Enterprise used her warp drive in The Search for Spock, so we know that she was using her main power source. Which means, she needed antimatter to do that.
So we're left with either the antimatter had been removed and partially refilled or that the antimatter hadn't been touched prior to the theft. Either one could work. The Spacedock Docking Bay workers didn't seem to be too attentive to their posts. In fact, the shots of the control room show NO ONE in the room. Hence, the space doors went unsecured (as the computer was instructing). So it could have been possible for Scotty to start a refueling. He may not have had time to finish or simply did not see the necessity of a full load.
The second option is that the decommissioning work had not yet started. The Enterprise was devoid of all personnel except for Kirk and company, and it appeared that no stripping had begun. Maybe Starfleet's intention was to have the Enterprise set in port for a while until the demolition crew arrived. Or maybe it was ceremonial to show the star of the old generation of starships (Enterprise) watching the tests of the new generation of starships (Excelsior). The Excelsior's tests were not to begin until the next day (as per Captain Style's and Scotty's conversation in the engine room).
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"I rather strongly disagree, even if I share the love of Dick. Speaking of which, that would be the most embarrasing .sig quote ever, so never use it."
- Simon Sizer, 23/01/2001
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?
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[Bart's looking for his dog.]
Groundskeeper Willy: Yeah, I bought your mutt - and I 'ate 'im! [Bart gasps.] I 'ate 'is little face, I 'ate 'is guts, and I 'ate the way 'e's always barkin'! So I gave 'im to the church.
Bart: Ohhh, I see... you HATE him, so you gave him to the church.
Groundskeeper Willy: Aye. I also 'ate the mess he left on me rug. [Bart stares.] Ya heard me!
As far as I can reason, the topedo system installed on the Enterprise at that time utilized empty shells that were filled and primed on demand. Otherwise, why bother with that complex two deck loading approach? Therefore, again, antimatter for torpedoes had to come from the main bottles.
To reply to the very original post. If the situation was realistic, and the Enteprise was truly something like 4000 km away, and she had fired torpedoes, the resulting explosion would have caused severe damage to the Enterprise as well. We can assume that the Reliant still somehow maintained AM containment and so had a full supply on board. So if the Reliant was fired on by the Enterprise, presumably this antimatter would be released. Ship make big BOOM!
Also, I hold that the Genesis Device is sort of like an atomic bomb. If you blow up something nearby, it doesn't neccesarily mean it will go off. If the Reliant exploded before the Genesis Device had reached its critical stage, it wouldn't go off at all. Its mechanism would be destroyed in the blast and it wouldn't add a thing to the overall effect.
I would put forth that firing the torpedoes and the changes in ship's systems that occur at red alert status and a rush jury-rigging job contributed to the Enterprise's demise. She went to red alert, fired torpedoes at Kruge's ship, and suffered a direct hit to her automation center.
On a side note, it looked like part of the shields were raised. Chekov's little shield monitor showed some of the dots lit up (thereby indicating shields in some areas).
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Nic: She's not a practicing lesbian. We need PRACTICING lesbians!
Me: I have a camcorder.
Nic: But no lesbians.
Me: Ahhh... no.
Nic: DAMN IT MAN! WE NEED LESBIANS! LOTS AND LOTS OF LESBIANS!
ICQ Conversation From January 23, 2001.
--
Due to the damage sustained from Khan's original attack, the blast doors from the above deck effectly cut off the Warp Core from the Warp Engines. We don't know for certain how much damage was done to the working parts of the engine room i.e. the engineering computer network itself. We do know that Scotty's engineers had alot of patchwork to do on the exterior hull, as well as inside damage.
Scotty: "I've got her bypassed like an Xmas tree. So don't give me too many bumps."
Enterprise took further damage while in the Nebula. Something (too many bumps?) clearly caused the radiation leaks in Engineering. Who is to say the shields would even have worked when they left the Nebula?
The fact that Starfleet wasn't planning to follow-up any of Scotty's repairs, made the trip in ST: III that much more of a challenge. With no engineering crew, the ship couldn't possibly be prepared for unplanned encounter's. Let alone the 'plasma torpedo' (this was the intention when models/special effects were filmed prior to script changes) discharge that arced across the Enterprise. Its no wonder poor Enterprise was fryed...
Purrrrr.....
[This message has been edited by Psi'a Meese (edited March 04, 2001).]
--Jonah
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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."
--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH
Shields or "defense screens" and the navigational deflector are two entirely seperate systems. Explain to me what you meant there.
Also, if Scott had not fully attached the shield system to the automation center, why did he not say so when Kirk asked Chekov to raise shields? I hoghly doubbt he would have forgotten such an important detail. If he went through all the trouble to load and prime several torpedoes and hook the system up, common sense follows that he hooked up the shields as well. It seems shields are already partly computer operated, so why would there be a problem with doing that?
Yes, there were little dots on the screen. Chekov attempted to raise the shields and they would not go up all the way. This was, by the way, BEFORE Kruge fired on the Enterprise.
Who ever said that the entire computer system overloaded? It is more likely that only the automation center was not able to handle all that was required of it when torpedoes were fired and thus jammed when it was asked to raise the shields. If the main computer failed, then the entire ship would have shut itself down. The main computer DOES regulate such things as power distribution, life support, etc., correct? There is no "manual" operation for systems so complex.
If we follow this line of reasoning, the self destruct system does not require that the AUTOMATION center be fully operational does it? Because it runs off of the computer core. As a matter of fact, it may have safeguarded sections of the computer core entirely dedicated to its operation. Thus it could be fully operational to scuttle the ship if neccessary in a true "no-win" scenario.
Someone please define what WARP plasma is as apposed to "normal" plasma. How would you "ignite" either if it is a superheated gas?
(By the way, an interesting proof that antimatter is loaded onto empty torpedo shells and then primed is the fact that there was not a super-massive explosion when Enteprise destroyed Reliant's torpedo pod.)
Now, what Khan repaired was auxiliary power. That doesn't give warp speed, so one might say the nacelles of the Reliant weren't even energized when Kirk hit the port one. Thus, no chain reaction of the sort that has destroyed TNG Galaxy class starships often enough. Yet Khan wouldn't have ejected his antimatter fuel at this point, even if it was useless to him - surely he was hoping that he would regain warp later on, even if his repair crews were woefully understaffed and inexperienced. So the Reliant was a flying bomb when Kirk was sitting mere megameters away from her in the shieldless Enterprise.
What Spock repaired was partial main power. This was a superbly smart move, since although it perhaps didn't make the Enterprise as sublight-battleworthy as Khan's ship, it did bring the Enterprise very close to regaining warp drive. Had Khan decided to make a run for it instead of chasing Kirk into the nebula, Kirk would still have won - he could have finished the warp drive repairs and picked Khan like an overripe plum as he puttered along at pitiful impulse speeds.
Timo Saloniemi
Now, I am going to try and explain myself and my logic to you, Daniel. I hope this answers all of your questions!
The automation center was knocked out. Not the main computer (or at the very least, not part of it). Daniel, I interpretted your saying "...an action that which effectively overloaded the computer jury-rig Scott had set up" as meaning that you thought the computer suffered a system-wide overload. If that is not the case, I misunderstood.
Yes, the computer monitors the overall functioning of power distribution, life support, etc., but I bet that a lot of that was also routed through the automation center. The Enterprise seemed to need a lot more crew interaction to run that ship than the Enterprise-D. We've seen the Enterprise-D being completely controlled by one or a small group of individuals. Picard and Riker handled the ship in "1100100," Data seized total control in "Brothers," the medical/science divisions ran it in "Descent, Part II," and Dr. Crusher was in control in "Remember Me." However, The Search for Spock made a big deal out of Scotty having to do extensive work on the ship to be able to have their small group run the ship for a simple recovery mission.
Knocking out the automation center knocked out a few systems. This is evident from the crew stations on the bridge. Scotty's station sparked, and the monitors on the auxiliary systems station behind Kirk became filled with static. Fortunately, the science station's link to the main computer was intact, and the communications' station retained control of communication functions. It would seem that it is easier for the computer to manage communications and computer control without crew interaction than managing the defense/offense systems without crew interaction. We know that there is a lot of crew interaction thanks to the previous movie. Saavik gave the order to energize the defense shields. We were then treated to shots of crew members located elsewhere than the bridge turning dials and pressing buttons. Later on, after Kirk et al are retreived from Regula, we see a sizeable crew presence in the torpedo bay as she prepares for battle.
Now, a lot of functions were routed through the automation center. Scotty had a short amount of time to do all of this. He wasn't expecting the Enterprise to be taken into battle, so I don't think that he connected all of the defense/offense systems. They were only planning on retreiving Spock's body so priority would be propulsion, navigation and guidance, transportation, and crew support. With this logic, I do not think that it is unreasonable that Scotty did not do a thorough connection of the shields and weapons. And with the already poor state of the Enterprise the automation center suffered the same fate as my computer does when I request a lot of it: it freezes and gives me the blue screen of death. The automation center froze (hence non-responsive shields) and was then knocked out. I think we agree on the automation center freezing.
Now for my statement of the deflector shields and the navigational shields: I misinterpretted what the TNG Tech Manual was saying on the matter. I was going to change that in my last post, but I have been denied access to the forums since the time I wrote that post (don't ask me why, all I got was a "Cannot Find Server" message). So, scratch that from the record.
Manual operation has to be possible for systems like life support and power distribution. If the main computer system were to actually die, the crew would need some way to take over control. We've also had references to life support and other systems being placed under manual control (one instance that comes to mind is in TNG's "Disaster"). It would be foolish to construct a system that is primarily computer controlled without offering the option of the crew taking over control in an emergency. Thus, I say that manual operation is possible.
The ship's self-destruct sequence is handled by a secure part of the computer system. The Voyager episode where the Kazon comandeer Voyager shows that a specific set of processors had to be knocked out to disable self-destruct. There is also (probably) a dedicated and highly protected communication network between those destruct ordinance packages and the self-destruct processors.
Torpedo casings are stored empty. When the order to arm torpedoes comes in, the torpedo casing is picked out of storage, primed with antimatter and matter, and then shoved in the launch tube. The example of the Reliant's torpedo pod is a good example of that.
I have to agree with Timo that the Reliant's nacelles were not energized. She was on auxiliary power. Furthermore, after the nacelle is detacted, we should be seeing a pretty steady and thick stream of plasma leaking from the pylon. All we see is a little trail. I think that proves what Timo's saying.
[This message has been edited by Siegfried (edited March 06, 2001).]
* I say that Scott had primed and loaded several torpedoes prior to the attack by Kruge because otherwise the arm-to-fire period wouldn't have been so short. When Kirk said fire, two torpedoes came out of the starboard tube in a split second. We saw in ST-II how long it takes to load a single torp, so I feel it had to have been done in advance.
I think that these connections helped lead to the demise of the Enterprise. According to the Tech Manual, when the Enterprise-D goes to red alert, the computer automatically performs several actions: raising shields, running diagnostics, energizing phasers banks, and arming two photon torpedoes. A similar set of procedures could have been in effect for the original Enterprise. Since the connections were minimal, the automation center and computer would have had difficulty trying to perform these actions. System resources would be stressed and the result would have been the automation center freezing.
As for the preloading of the photon torpedoes, I have a wild idea about that. Going into the Genesis system, there seemed to be an implication that the Grissom could be a difficulty. Didn't someone wonder whether the Grissom was going to greet them as a friend or foe? As a precaution, two torpedoes could have been primed and loaded to be used as a bluff. If the Grissom had given the Enterprise problems, Kirk could have threatened to disable the Grissom if he hadn't been allowed to beam down to the planet. I think that this could be possible since as a group, they had sabotaged the Excelsior, performed unauthorized repairs and modifications to the Enterprise, procured the access code for the Spacedock doors, threatened and subdued an officer, disobeyed direct orders of the Starfleet Commander, stole the Enterprise, and a whole lot of other stuff. Since the Oberth-class starship would have been no match with the Constitution-class starship, Esteban would have been forced to relent given that threat. It's a wild idea, but it explains the torpedoes and could be possible.
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Nic: She's not a practicing lesbian. We need PRACTICING lesbians!
Me: I have a camcorder.
Nic: But no lesbians.
Me: Ahhh... no.
Nic: DAMN IT MAN! WE NEED LESBIANS! LOTS AND LOTS OF LESBIANS!
ICQ Conversation From January 23, 2001.
One wonders who climbed down to manually remove the protective grilles from over the torpedo track, though.
In any case, Kirk and pals possibly had days (or even weeks) of time aboard the ship for hatching all sorts of contingency plans before reaching Genesis. There was no direct indication that the trip was a quick one - sure, the heroes never changed their clothes, but apparently they didn't *bring* other clothing with them. 23rd century clothing might not require frequent washing...
Timo Saloniemi
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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!
--Jonah
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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."
--Col. Edwards, ROBOTECH
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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!
Timo Saloniemi
And again, by an amazing coincidence, they just happened to be wearing the same clothes again, three months later, when they were about to take the BOP back to Earth.
Tsk, they only wore those clothes three times in a few months, and we just happened to be watching them at that point. Poor lads.
And Sulu probably didn't want to change out of his snazzy outfit. I imagine he walked around the deserted Enterprise pretending to be a mad cross between Batman and Zorro.
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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles
Thank you. Your assessment makes a lot of sense and resolves my conflict of many years over this issue.
And *Lots of Laughs* @PsyLiam.
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Purrr...
If so, I LOL at you. Many times. 
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"I WANT A POST VOY SERIES STAR TREK ORIGINAL MESSAGE WAS LOOKING FORWARD NOT LOOKING BACK."
-Darkstar
So nyah to you, Mr Blue Car Carrier.
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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles
Say there were two grams left in the bottles, ( and I seriously think it was much more than that even if they did partially drain them), would that not still be enough to detonate a portion of the secondary hull when containment failed? If this is true, then the bottles MUST have been ejected or the antimatter dumped before the Enterprise self-destructed, as we saw no such explosion.
Comments? Thoughts? Suggestions? Hypotheses? Conclusions?
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[Bart's looking for his dog.]
Groundskeeper Willy: Yeah, I bought your mutt - and I 'ate 'im! [Bart gasps.] I 'ate 'is little face, I 'ate 'is guts, and I 'ate the way 'e's always barkin'! So I gave 'im to the church.
Bart: Ohhh, I see... you HATE him, so you gave him to the church.
Groundskeeper Willy: Aye. I also 'ate the mess he left on me rug. [Bart stares.] Ya heard me!