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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

God I miss this feature of the Enterprise-D.

If memory serves, we only saw it four times: Encounter at Farpoint, Arsenal of Freedom, Best of Both Worlds pt. II, and the dreck that was Generations.

I wish TPTB had used this option on more occasions. It's a nice feature of any starship to be able to send non-combatants away while having a dedicated battle section to combat hostile forces.

Having just watched Encounter at Farpoint again, I was surprised by the fanfare that surrounded the first seperation sequence. The TNG theme blasting loudly as we watch from seperate viewpoints as the Enterprise becomes two ... (speaking of which, do both ships identify themselves as the Enterprise once they're seperated?)

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

"Generations" was NOT dreck! We got to see the ENterprise-B in that movie! Say it out loud: THE ENTERPRISE-B!!!

And the E-D refit bridge too. And stellar cartography. And Soran's kickass gun. Man, I'd love to have a nonsensically cool gun like that.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

As for identifying the seperate section, I dunno - e've never seen them seperate in fleet action. I guess it'd be something as simple as "Enterprise Saucer Section" and "Enterprise Stardrive Section". Both of which abbreviate to ESS, which doesn't help any.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Generations was dreck.

Yes, the E-B was nice. Stellar Cartography rocked -- I wish we'd seen that set in the series! And Soran's gun -- stop drooling, you're going to rust it!

But story-wise, it was DRECK.

Posted by DARKSTAR on :

I would have used it more in the series. Both sections were still Identitfied as the Enterprise. The Stardrive was probaly the closest thing Starfleet had to a warship until the Defiant cane onlong. The Stardrive which without the saucer is the length of Voyager. The reason that there wasn'nt mass saucer seperation during the war is that the galaxy class is stronger as a starship as a whole.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

It's a nice feature, but I can perfectly understand TPTB's reason for not using it. It slowed down the story too much. Sure, it may not actually take that long for everyone to pop down to the battle bridge, but you've then got to go and pick up the saucer again at the end, plus you have to loose some of your senior staff.

If it had carried on, we would have spent half the series looking at a headless chicken. Who wants that?

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Starship Freak (Member # 293) on :

Personally, I don�t like the idea of separation, I think it leaves the individual pieces to vulnerable. That and the fact that the stardrive section looks butt-ugly.
And the Prometheus, we�ve been over this before, but guess what happens if the middle-section gets blown away?

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"The Starships of the Federation are the physical, tangible manifestations of Humanity�s stubborn insistence that life does indeed mean something."
Spock to Leonard McCoy in "Final Frontier"

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Problem is, they've been able to design few enough ship classes that look good from every angle (I mean, have you SEEN the Equinox's side view? Just one example, but an apt one - it looks like it's lost its saucer). Designing a ship that looks good in two separate parts seems to be beyond them (three parts, though seemed to work). Maybe if they had gone in for something like the Prometheus from the start, that looked good separated and you could convincingly cut to as they approached a situation, and know exactly why it was in two parts, without having to show the actual sep sequence. . .

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by Shipbuilder (Member # 69) on :

Personally, I don't think it left the stardrive section vulnerable. The intention for even having the ship separate was so that the stardrive could go do battle if necessary. Generally, you don't design something to split into two pieces if there is a greater chance that when seperated you're going to lose one of those pieces.

I've heard the 'more fusion/impulse reactors and more phaser strips' comments before but fusion and impulse power pales in comparison to the M/AM reactor power. More phaser strips doesn't mean more power, merely easier to hit off-angle targets...the battle section looked like it had ample coverage. Additionally, when separated the stardrive section can divert all its power to a smaller shield bubble. I just don't see the point designing a separating vessel unless its beneficial to you in a fight.

This all takes for granted that the saucer is left out of the fight (as implied by its purpose, btw BOBW was a desperation move).

IMO, I think one of the coolest opportunities that TPTB missed was showing the Odyssey separate and leave the saucer at DS9.

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

If the Oddyssey did leave the saucer at DS9, it would looked strange. But a saucer seperation before the Oddyssey blew up or the explosion happening while the saucer seperation was in progress would have been KICK-ASS!!!

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"Oh for fuck's sake, stop your moaning,
If you fancy a threesome at this time of night, you can't get start getting choosey about which particular three!
-Queer As Folk, UK

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

I agree with the Odessey thing. That would have been a good idea.

I was happy to see that they used the saucer impulse engines to supplement the main engine in the Dominion War.

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Terry: "Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, ...."
Max: "And?"
Terry: "I forgot."
Max: "Come on, Clinton was the fun one, then came the boring one."
Terry: "They're all boring."

- Batman Beyond (aka: Batman of the Future)

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Re: Starships that are embarrassing from certain angles:

The Akira, a lovely, lovely ship from every angle but the side, where she looks not unlike a pregnant guppy.

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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

And there is of course Lady Enterprise, and her daughter, the Enterprise A, which both look great from all angles (the A was metallic!!)

Excelsior and Galaxy look good too!

The Olympic also looks good from most angles.

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The Amtal Rule (Dune)
---
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Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

I heard at one point that the reason why the Saucer Separation technique was not used often was because of its cost. New models had to be created especially for the Saucer separation. Guess they didn't feel like using stock footage (but I think they did though)

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Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Yeah, they always used stock footage. If you watch E at F, they had shots of four or five angles of the seperation. They cut that down to two or three for Arsenal, and to one shot for BoBW II.

They created one new shot for Generations, a rear view of the Saucer clearing the Stardrive, but they used a stock shot as well. I don't think they had to build a new model, just keep models of the seperated Stardrive and Saucer sections on hand.

The manuver would've been a good way depending on the script. Say, the Enterprise is responding to a distress call for a medical emergency at a colony. They arrive, then recieve another distress call from another ship -- which is under attack. The saucer section is left to handle the medical problem, and the stardrive responds to the threat.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Ha, I've never thought of that. But I must admit the Galaxy class has the ugliest front view of all time.
But the semi-ventral shot from "Emissary" in DS9, where she arrives in the end of the episode and scares the cardassianos away, it's beautiful. Especially those uneven surfaces on the bottom of the saucer. The side view is nice also.

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You can't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

Can someone do a 'spot the difference' between the TNG Galaxy class model and the DS9 CGI version? Whenever I look at the Galaxy class in DS9 it somehow looks a lot better than in TNG...

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Terry: "Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, ...."
Max: "And?"
Terry: "I forgot."
Max: "Come on, Clinton was the fun one, then came the boring one."
Terry: "They're all boring."

- Batman Beyond (aka: Batman of the Future)

[This message has been edited by Altair (edited March 10, 2001).]

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

In the explosion, didn't Odssey's saucer blow off? You can see it fly towards the screen.

Personally I perfer the model than the CGI, CGI makes the ships look cartoony, not in the way of Baabylon 5. Have you seen Voyager? I can tell that every shot that invloved a CGI. Some ships too looked even worst.

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Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

They've started rerunning VOY again, and you can definitely see they used the model in those episodes. It just looks a lot more realistic, for some reason.
They are less clean and crisp, they look more like used spacecraft.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

God, you've got people who can explain EXACTLY how Impulse engines work, but you've got no-one who knows that the original Enterprise-D model actually DID seperate?

Basically, ILM built a 6-foot model that seperated. It was akward to use. Half way through season 3 (I think it was "The Enemy"), a new 4-foot model built by Greg Jein debuted. It was more detailed, but didn't seperate. Which didn't really bother TPTB, since they'd stopped using that over 2 seasons ago.

When BOBW part 2 was done, they hauled the old model out (for about 2 shots). They then went back to the 4 foot model for the remaining 4 years.

For Generations, ILM got the 6 foot model out, and spruced it up.

The 4-foot model was used as the Odessey, used in AGT, and (AFAIK), last seen as the USS Venture (Way of the Warrior), which still had the engine/phaser modifications from AGT.

Since then, we've only seen the CGI model first designed for Generations. I have no idea what the 4 and 6 foot models are doing nowadays.

And Nimrod: The Enterprise scared the Cardies away in Emmisary? Sorry, but that's exactly NOT what happened. Kira bluffed, and then the wormhole opened up. Gul Dukut's being carried along by a runabout took the wind out of their fight. The Enterprise turned up later. The Enterprise had turned up at the end of Emissary to scare away the Cardies would have been the worst thing they could have done.

Sorry, and I want to test Matrix: While I agree that sometimes CGI is really easy to spot, Trek is generally really good at it. I remember several people slagging off the "cheap looking" Valiant CGI model, before finding out that it was a physical model. Can you tell which ships in the final shot of A Call To Arms are CGI, and which are models? Or which shots of the Voyager title sequence use the model, and which use CGI?

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, I know the Jemmie battleship in "Valiant" looked very much CGI...

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

PsyLiam: Maybe I was unclear in my disposition, but the Enterprise showing up in the end of "Emissary" did help to speed up the cardassians time of departure.

Benjamin's quote: "With the arrival of the Enterprise, the cardassians have left the area."

I find it illogical to assume the cardassians guarded the station from the prophets, after seeing the wormhole, and was happy when the Enterprise arrived so that they could go home.

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

[This message has been edited by Nimrod (edited March 12, 2001).]

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

9/10 CGI spotting in even Trek is easy as...

Its, as was mentioned the non-perfect look of models, their physicality and the way light interacts with the real surfaces that make the models more realistic.

I still think the MAJOR problem with CGI today is the way light interacts with the model - be it starship or dare I say it... Gun-Gun...

Also, the windows in Starships... when will 'fan modellers' realise that those windows aren't just white or black.

Also - as I mentioned somewhere about the NEW CGI for the spruced up TMP... I can't stand how on CGI models - textures are reused over and over and over so the pattern becomes noticeable on say the hull... or the nacelles... They are TRYING to make it look 'real' but things in real life don't repeat EXACTLY over and over again... If its because they take a small image map and tile it then stop taking the easy way out, and spend time creating each individual hull plate... also how light responds to each individual hull plate...

I mean look at those FAKE AS hull patterns on the Enterprise E... they try to do the hull plates, but the CGI makes it turn out to look... well plastic... and FAKE!

Another trek CGI problem is movement... these are BIG starships... they lumber along... they don't dip and dive like a fighter... only say the Defiant can do this. No those big ships... especially the scenes in Insurrection where it has the E-E strafing the Collector to beam out Picard... yeah right...

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Hide and Q, she hits on Picard! "Oh, if only you weren't the captain..." God! If
Denise Crosby hadn't left the series, she'd've slept with the entire senior staff by
now!" Jeff Kardde - March 7, 2001

Posted by Michael Dracon (Member # 4) on :

In the Captain's Chair CD-ROM it was said that the Ent-E had the maneuverability of a ship half it's size. I don't know how much weight that carries.

Remember, the Ent-E has about the same internal volume as the Ambassador class. Which is much less than in a Galaxy class. Add to that newer technology and two huge impulse engines and I think it'll get the job done.

Have you seen the turns that the Nebula and Ambassador make in DS9s pilot episode? Have you seen the turns that the Ent-D sometimes makes when it goes to warp?

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Terry: "Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, ...."
Max: "And?"
Terry: "I forgot."
Max: "Come on, Clinton was the fun one, then came the boring one."
Terry: "They're all boring."

- Batman Beyond (aka: Batman of the Future)

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

I can't exactly tell you how i can tell how I know that which one if CGI or not but I know this the way the hull reacts to the light in space is a good indicator. It looks good only at distance but up close you can tell by even the shading in hull.

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Nimmy: Ah. I'll buy that a bit. But still, wasn't the Enterprise a few hours away while everyone was fluffing around in the wormhole? The Cardies had plenty of time to retake DS9 if they wanted to.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

If you say so.

The romulan warbirds in the DS9-ep with the bajoran blockade, and "IAEIL" were nice. Weren't they CGI?

One safe assumption is that CGI only will improve with time, so if you haven't liked it up until now, you'll see.

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

"IAEIL"?

'Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges', possibly?

And the other one's 'Shadows And Symbols', IIRC.

CGI's only good for battle scenes. Everything else should/could be motion-controlled models.

Look at 'The Die Is Cast' and 'Defiant'
if you want really good examples of model and camera work.

------------------
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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Yeah, the attacking Jem'Hadar wings were gorgeous. The Defiant put up a good show, too.
Too bad they never showed when the aft launchers fired.

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Jeff:
Sorry, can't agree with you about Stellar Cartography. The set made no sense in a technological sense, when they could have had much better displays with holograms. Hell, any holodeck would be a better SC. It is for this reason that I tend to believe that the large raised circular area between 7's operating console and the curved screen is a holo-emitter - for real 3d imaging.

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Posted by Gaseous Anomaly (Member # 114) on :

"Captain, I dont believe it. She's offered the vicar a cup of tea!!"

"Red alert! All hands to battle stations!"

"Incoming! Hot water and Teabag at 002 mark 89."

"Acknowledged, Tactical, watch for Sugar."

"An unlikely occurence, Captain. The vicar is diabetic. More likely Milk is our greatest threat here."

"May I remind you, Ambassador, that you are here as an observer only."

"No, Number One, she's right. Any sign of..."

"Teabag-hot water impact in 5 seconds! Four...three...two...one..."

*JOLT*

"Shields holding Captain. Down to 84%, but we sustained some damage to the plasma relays on Deck 3, Section 11."

"Get Damage Control teams there, fast."

"Aye sir"

*SHAKES*

"REPORT!!"

"Captain, he's not having milk! The senile old git forgot the milk!"

" "

"Captain?"

" "

"What are your orders, Captain?"

"Prepare for emergency saucer seperation."

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At that point, McDonald fired his gun three times in the air to emphasize his point. The crowd, estimated at 350,000, loudly cheered the new candidate.

"Let me make this clear: I am the law! I am your ruler! And you will have fries with that, motherf*cker!"

Posted by Orion Syndicate (Member # 25) on :

*lol* I think that just about sums up our Dear Captain Janeways reign as Captain of Voyager. Lets face it, any ship that gets the shit kicked out of it by the Kazon isn't worth much.

There's a point. They get murdered by the Kazon but always defeat the Borg. Is it me, or is there a flaw in there somewhere?

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Hair. It all comes down to hair. The Borg - no hair. Voyager - boring hair. Kaxon - outrageous hair.

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by MC Infinity (Member # 531) on :

B5's centauri should've kicked some @ss then

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

True. Let's compare captain's hair:

Picard: No hair. Class act.
Sisko: Started off with hair. Boring bloke with a chip on his shoulder. Shaved off his hair. Became a complete psycho who beat the crap out of everyone, and could manage fleets of over 600 starships without breaking a sweat, and without looking at any displays. Class mental act.
Kirk: Hair loss inversly proportional to coolness of tecnology. Managed to defeat ships thousands of times the size of his own by using poker. When wearing false hair, had the best uniform of the lot.
Janeway: Ridiculously long hair. Bit naff. Mad on coffee. Burned all photos of her during the first two seasons, screaming "Who told me this was a good idea?". Scitzo act.

So, the onyl way Janeway could top the other captains would be if she shaved off her own hair, AND wore a wig.

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Yeah, but you gotta remember Janeway started off with hair pretty much like she has now, they decided after two days it wasn't working and re-shot with the long hair extensions. . . And your Starfleet captain analysis contradicts my alien threat analysis - it's more hair, more dangerous. Which ties in with your average studio exec's nightmare recollections of the 60's counterculture.

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

I actually have some standards left for judging what debates I'll dirty my hands in, and I've determined that this is in fact SILLY!!
No more! This far, no further!!

But the centauri DID kick ass...

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Well, the Captain's with less hair were cooler. But it's when their hair changes that they develop serious personality problems. Janeway started to change her hair during season 3, and became a scitzophrenic PMT possessed women every other week (when she wasn't being a boring by-the-book pussy). Kirk was almost normal in TOS, but in the movies he became a racist, Enterprise-obsessed madman. Sisko was normal, then became a psychotic bully.

Picard's the only one to stay stable, because he hasn't changed his hairstyle.

We should probably worry if the Borg turn on with afro's.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Oh, thank you SO much for putting that image in my head.

Hold on, wasn't Picard's hair (what he had of it, at the back) a lot bushier initially?

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Ross: This is not good for my rage. *takes another pill*

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Yes, he looked positively roman! Anyone for a fig?

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Don't kill me, I'm charming!

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

God forbid if the Borg ever show up with afros...damn Voyager and it's lack of continuity!!!

I just finished watching "Faces" and noticed that in this episode Janeway has the same hairstyle as Seven of Nine. She was more convincing as a captain in this episode than in the seasons where she has that short hair. I also noticed that Roxann Dawson had longer hair back then than she does now when she is not in makeup.

But aren't we talking about the saucer separation manuver here, not if the captain should have a specific type of hair? The hair thing should get its own thread.

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"Oh for fuck's sake, stop your moaning,
If you fancy a threesome at this time of night, you can't get start getting choosey about which particular three!
-Queer As Folk, UK

[This message has been edited by Michael_T (edited March 16, 2001).]

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

But look what happened to Picard when he DID have hair - picks a fight with a couple of Nausicaans and gets stabbed through the heart!

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Good for him!

How many times have we seen the Enterprise seperate? Off the top of my head:

Encounter at Farpoint
Arsenal of Freedom
Best of Both Worlds II
Generations

What about the novels? My mind's a blank, only ones I can come up with are:

Ghost Ship
Children of Hamblin

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.64 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with six eps posted)
***
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****
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Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Well, there was one called "Rogue Saucer", which I never read, but I think it's reasonable to assume that they seperated.

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Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

IIRC, the Enterprise-D's saucer was replaced with a saucer section from the Bolivar. (?).

It then, of course, went rogue.

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Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

They did to test out a new recyclable saucer section that can land on the ground then be reused again. Then some bad guy decides to steal it thinking he has power now. Dumb plot

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :

Like most Trek novels, yes. I remember that novel giving Admiral Nechayev a substantial role. Ugh.

Actually, this novel was one of my biggest beefs with many of these novels - they find these wierd, contrived ways to strip a ship of nearly all of its crew, and then go about working sci-fi miracles with it. "Ship of the Line", "Saratoga", and "Crossover", to name a few.

Mark

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"Why build one, when you can have two at twice the price?"

- Carl Sagan, "Contact"

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Think if the saucer section was the whole ship and every starfleet ship looked like that, like the Vree. I feel sick...

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I hated Rogue Saucer, what a horrible piece of work. John Vornholt has gone down the drain, IMHO. Masks, Sanctuary, Containment were all good books. He was one of the few Trek writers whose books I bought. Well -- not after Rogue Saucer.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Hmmm. With the threat of a war with the Romulans, and in violation of the Treaty with them, Picard charges into the Neutral Zone ... and brings the saucer along with him. Okay -- perfect time to seperate the ship. Honestly.

Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :

I bought the book for sake of curiosty. I can see no reason why someone would steal a sucer section, unless that section could be built into an existing section. Which brings up another question, if they can do this then why steal one at all? I don't like the book and I will never read it again.

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