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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

I don't know about everybody else, but I always assumed that the 'arrowhead' that is seen on the side of the Enterprise in TOS - along the secondary hull, was just a stylised version of the Enterprise insignia, seen on the uniforms.

When I was watching the First Season TOS Marathon last week, I noticed something. The sets for the Starbase offices, seen a few times, like in The Menagarie 1 and 2 and Court Martial... we see a wierd 'window' in the background. I hadn't taken much notice, until I thought, I've seen that elsewhere... then it clicked - it was the 'arrowhead' design that we see on the side of the Enterprise's secondary hull... Like the possible Klingon embolym SP? from Errand of Mercy... this could indeed be the actual early Starfleet/Federation symbol... seeing as it was smackbang in the middle of the wall in several Starbase offices. Its probably not a windows, as we see normal square windows along the other wall... I think it just had that 'hologram paper' sort of stuff that was used in abundance throughout Trek 'inside it' making it look like a window.

Screen cap anyone?

(If anyone has played "The Sims" there is a sort of 'boomerang' window available to use that looks like this design... it looks very retro - maybe they took it from Trek, or it was a popular sixties window style!?!... Masao?? ;o) )

Andrew

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Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Screencap from "Court Martial". No, I don't know why it's horizontally stretched like that. Just WinDVD sucking ass, I suppose...

Anyway, I've always assumed that that was supposed to be some sort of early generic-SF symbol, along w/ the tall-upper-point star.

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"Although, from what I understand, having travelled around the Mid-west quite a bit, apparently Jesus is coming, so I guess the choice now is we should decide whether we should spit or swallow."
-Maynard James Keenan

[This message has been edited by TSN (edited April 24, 2001).]

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

This symbol would make very little sense as an Enterprise-only symbol, since it can be seen on all the other Constitution class ships in the show as well - not to mention TAS, which shows it on a variety of ships of other classes.

It's not even directly tied to the Enterprise arrowhead at that - people aboard those other Constitutions that sported this boomerang wore non-arrowhead chest insignia.

Perhaps it could be argued to be a special logo for "starship operations" (even though TAS later slaps the thing on various freighters as well). Most probably, though, it's a generic Starfleet decorative motif, popular in the mid-23rd century but falling in disuse in later years (replaced by the Enterprise-style arrowhead).

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I would agree with Timo. I think it's just a decorative style they use. In this case, they seem to have turned it into shiny wall art...

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"The sons of the Prophet were valiant and bold,
And quite unacustomed to fear.
But, of all, the most reckless, or so I am told,
Was Abdulah Boul Boul Ameer."
Aban's Illustration www.alanfore.com

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

I said, I originally thought it was just the TOS version of the arrowhead - but NOW, I don't think that... I feel it is a Starfleet/Federation logo thingy... Timo... I don't know if you were replying to me directly...

But there is too much of a coincidence in the design between the thing on the wall and the thing on the pennant on the ship... no?

Maybe like the Klingon 'design' from Errand of Mercy this was their first go at a "insignia"? (By the show - not the actual governments )

P.S. TSN, thats a nice screen cap... You don't happen to have Errand of Mercy on DVD do you?

Andrew
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Homer: I'm gonna miss Springfield. This town's been awfully good to us.
Bart: No, it hasn't, Dad. That's why we're leaving.
Homer: Oh, yeah. [pokes his head out the window] So long, Stinktown!

[This message has been edited by AndrewR (edited April 24, 2001).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Andrew: No, I don't. It would appear to be on the same disc as "The City on the Edge of Forever". I've seen both episodes already, and I'm just buying the ones I've never seen, at first.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Since when did everyone start getting the ability to provide really good-quality vidcaps all of a sudden? B(

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"It strikes me that there are enough episodes of the Simpsons that people could speak entirely in Simpsonese, using references from the show to explain or describe an endless series of situations. Nelson and Apu . . . at Tinagra.

But now I�ve brought Star Trek into it again, haven�t I. Sorry."

- James Lileks, 09/04/2001

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Um... About eight days ago, in my case... :-)

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

The general non-canon (and canon) opinion is that this symbol was just the generic Starfleet logo to signify Starfleet vessels. Each ship, however, had its own distinct logo. The arrowhead was for the Enterprise, there was a rectangle thingy for another, and a curved symbol for the Constellation, I think.

Then (so the non-canon people continue), Starfleet decided to change it's official logo and the individual logos of all vessels to honor the illustrious history of the Starship Enterprise, and the arrowhead was thus adopted throughout the fleet for generic use, replaced ship symbols on uniforms, and replaced the gold and red banner on the sides of starships.

[This message has been edited by Daniel (edited April 24, 2001).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Is it possible that the symbol originated as the symbol of all 'Fleet, and that Enterprise was later given it as its ship symbol? It would explain why everyone else switched to using it when they eliminated the ship-specific symbols. Perhaps Enterprise WAS the flagship, and this is the evidence. Maybe the exploits of the upcoming prequel Enterprise were sufficient to garner it that spot.

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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

It could indeed be that the boomerang (as seen on the ships) was the definite Starfleet symbol all along. The Enterprise was part of a prominent sub-organization of Starfleet, perhaps a "1st Fleet" or "Central Command" or "Earth Defence Division", and this organization used a somewhat stylized version of the boomerang, namely the arrowhead, as its logo.

After TOS, somebody in Starfleet realized that the stylized version was in fact much cooler than the original version, so that was painted on the ship hulls from there on. And gradually, the other "Fleets" or "Commands" or "Divisions" stopped using their logos and adopted the revised common logo.

This abandoning of individual logos need not have been immediate or even pre-TMP, mind you. It is quite possible that we simply happened to see ships and forces belonging solely to this "1st Fleet" or "Central Command" during the first movie. After all, we only visited one location, namely Earth, in that movie, whereas in TOS we hopped all across Federation space and could thus plausibly encounter numerous local sub-organizations. Perhaps the 3rd Fleet was out there in exercises, with an "Exeter" patch worn by everybody? Perhaps Rigel Command was patrolling the Rigel colonies, with a "Constellation" patch on every chest?

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Daniel (Member # 453) on :

I have a feeling not. Why would they change the generic ship/uniform emblem in one "fleet" and not in another? Don't you think such a change would be made across the board, under orders from the "Committee on Apporpriate Starfleet Emblems" or whatever?

Also, who says the Enterprise is in the "1st Fleet" or whatever? Why would they keep a newly refitted ship, presumably one of the strongest in the fleet at that period, solely in the genral vicinity of Earth? If she is THE flagship of Starfleet, even for only a few years, she would probably have been moved around Federation territory as much as she was in her original configuration once she had a mission. Which usually happens after a shakedown cruise.

And then from that point on we see every other ship in the fleet bearing the arrowhead emblem. Reliant, Excelsior, Grissom, etc.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

It was probably a gradual thing. Every time a new ship came out, or an old one needed to be repainted, they changed it. But it would be pretty stupid to recall the entire Starfleet to base, just so they could change the little pictures on the hulls and uniforms.

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

The ships are pretty self-sufficient, though. With onboard fabricators, uniforms could probably be changed very simply without having to return to base. Painting the ship should also be possible without spacedock time.

I'm still not convinced the TOS Enterprise-nil ever was a flagship or even a very important ship for Starfleet, though. She had a low-ranking CO compared with two other known Constitutions. She was never seen leading any fleets. And while she did carry some dignitaries, there was never anybody of, say, UFP Council Member caliber aboard. So on second thought, she might not have been "1st Fleet" - rather, she'd simply be whatever fleet Starbase 11 belonged to, to explain the shared uniform logos in "Court Martial".

What prompted Starfleet to replace the boomerang with this SB 11/Enterprise logo, then? I guess the usual explanation, about this being done in honor of the Enterprise, COULD be true after all. But it's also possible that some other element of this SB 11/Enterprise organization was responsible for the change. Perhaps it was done because Fleet Admiral Stone or UFP Vice President Mendez wanted to honor his old unit?

So was the post-refit E-nil a flagship? We never saw her perform such a role. Then again, we saw very little of her before she was relegated to a training ship role. So it's difficult to tell. If Kirk commanded her after TMP and before Spock took over, then a flagship role *would* fit nicely - she'd be the first starship we've seen commanded by an Admiral.

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Maybe because the "delta" was just the simplest of the designs...

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Just a nitpicky thing - although we don't know if she lead it - the Enterprise was in the fleet at Organia that had gathered to battle the Klingon fleet, before the Organians stopped it. Would have been nice to actually have seen this fleet.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

I dunno. It would have just been lots of shots of the Enterprise from the front, repeated at slightly different sizes (a la The Ultimate Computer).

We'd have got that cool "Starfleet" music though. The one they played for the Constellation and the fleet in The Ultimate Computer. I loved that.

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Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :

Query:
In the various shots of Starfleet Admirals and Commodores speaking to Kirk via subspace from Earth or Starbase, were ANY of them wearing the arrowhead?

If so - up goes the balloon - it becomes a fleetwide symbol - and the vessels whose officers wore another symbol require another explanation.

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