As for the technical side, the Borg probably have 'spare-Queens' somewhere.
I've always thought of the Queen as a consciousness within the Collective...she's not so much an individual entity as she is the manifestation of the Collective Consciouness itself.
Her nature seems to be at all points and times within the Collective's existance. As far as her physical body...I agree with Harry...they likly have spares...
What does that mean in this context? Throw-away line technobabble - or a possible clue?
Imagine this:
The future Borg have discovered reliable time-travel. Since they do not have anything like a Temporal Prime Directive, the Borg can exist in all times. Time does no longer exist for them. A ship can travel in four dimensions (x,y,z and t). (actually, this is an idea for some other sci-fi fantasy of mine...)
What if the queen somehow has this ability to be anywhere and anytime she wants?
quote:
"... think so 3-dimensional..."
What does that mean in this context? Throw-away line technobabble - or a possible clue?
"You imply disparity where none exists...I am the Collective..." etc.
I think that understanding the relationship between the Queen and the Collective is simply beyond our comprehension as individualistic creatures - similar to the way that a human, a four dimensional creature, simply cannot visualize the fifth dimension (if it does exist).
Take a line. Make it infinitely narrow. That's the first dimension. Square the line and you get a square, infinitely thin. Square the square and you get a cube. Square the cube and you get a five dimensional hypercube. It looks like...well, your mind can't concieve of it. Neither can mine.
As an alternative, have you ever seen one of those patterns where you can take a flat piece of paper and fold it up into a cube? You know how it looks? Well, you could unfold a hypercube in the same way. Only rather than several squares that fold into a cube you'd have several cubes that fold into a hypercube.
My take on Sol's theroy...after you get a cube, the next step would be to have a cube in more than one point in time.
Take it like this:
Imagine you're a two dimensional person. Your universe is a square that you live on, and as far as you know, the entire universe consists soley of two dimensional objects. If all you know is two dimensions, then you cannot possibly concieve of a third dimension or any three dimensional object. If some radical revolutionary were to try and describe, say a sphere to you, you simply would not be able to imagine anything but circles.
That is not to say that I believe that the Borg extend into the 5th dimension (or subspace or whatever). That's not the point. The point is, as individualistic humans, we simply cannot adequately visualize the organizational relationship.
We can however, take indivualistic slices. So to carry the analogy, we can picture the individualistic slices (a drone, the Queen) b/c we are individualistic creatures. But we are simply incapable of picturing the collective whole. Yikes. [ June 06, 2001: Message edited by: Stingray ]
I do remember reading a novel in sixth grade called "A Wrinkle in Time." It has been a long time, so my memory of it is shady, however I remember a though where we are on a side of a string and our destination is the other side. Instead of travelling across the string to reach the side, we just "bend" the string and bring the two ends together. This makes the distance far shorter. I thought that this "string theory" is the fifth dimension? Am I wrong?
There also seems to be confusion about the terms "fourth dimension" and "fifth dimension". In most usage the "fourth dimension" is used to describe time. However, what's being discussed here is a "fourth spatial dimension". In other words, you have length, width, depth, and Rufus (where "Rufus" is another dimension of space), plus time. Make sure you know, when you say "fourth dimension", whether you mean the fourth dimension of any sort (either spatial or temporal), or if you're only talking about the fourth spatial dimension. As for the Fifth Dimension... Well, I used to be rather fond of "The Age of Aquarius"...
Oh, wait a minute, here's a site trying to explain all this: http://www.superstringtheory.com/basics.html
And Harry is also right. Super string theory requires 26 dimensions to work, some rolled up to billions of times smaller than an atom. And if we could detect tachyons, as scientists are currently trying to do, then that would confirm the Super-string theory which is supposed to be magnificently simple and elegent mathematically. (which is the goal of every engineer and scientist We can understand the fifth dimension. We just cannot visualize it. If we were to travel through hyperspace, we would see three dimensional slices of five dimensional things. You'd see seemingly random shapes appear/change shape/dissappear all over the place. (as to what's actually in the fifth dimension, beats the hell outta me)
Hyperspace is a dimension beyond the fourth, hence the name 'hyper'? So, err, subspace would be a dimension below the first dimension!? Dimension Zero? It can best be visualized by thinking of a being from conception to death as a worm-blur. Two large blurs come together. Tiny bits of them break off and form a smaller blur. That blur grows and changes, sometimes losing parts and sometimes adding parts to its mass. Sometimes it meets another blur and splits off parts of itself to create new blurs. Eventually, it begins to deteriorate, until it is absorbed by other blurs, which then grow in turn. The Fifth Dimension is a where Mxyzptlk lives.
Someone earlier said that scientists are attempting to prove tachyons exist, however if they are undetectable in what we know now, wouldn't that prove to be a difficult task? Seems that they may be only able to refine a theory rather than actually prove them...
So to carry the analogy again to the Borg....um...yeah...
Er... Come again?
In many ways they went back to the 21st century to remove the Federation from history as a grudge really. There's little technology to assimilate in 2063. So their passage there after the defeat in First Contact was little more than a final desperate attempt to cause some agro. so much for the Borg having no ego to bruise. But going back to the point about various dimensions, I dunno. I'm not a scientist. Don't attack me for this because I haven't investigated the latest in quantum mechanics, but its just my belief that there are only 3 spatial dimensions. Anything beyond that trancends the physical as we know it and cannot be conceived by our 3 dimensional brains. But these other dimensions that lie beyond this reality exist on different frequencies or different octaves of matter. These reside on different vibrations, ie spiritually. But that's just my personal opinion.
That's because *all* data in those fields is dynamic. They are not fixed numbers, but rather a link to some Flare/UBB Database.
Posts: 5669 | Registered: Mar 1999 | IP: Logged With everyone, the number of posts does not change and I found that odd since it appears to be there to log the number of posts you make at this board. So that really has nothing to do with anything. Thanks. Back to the topic.
[ June 10, 2001: Message edited by: Balaam Xumucane ]
I always thought they were there to stop the humans from meeting the vulcans and therefor the federation, once formed--would be alot smaller and alot less organized to mount the sufficient resistance against the borg attack in the future. I never thought they went back to assimilate earth in the past...if they did they should have concentrated beaming down drones instead of bombarding from orbit at the Pheonix luanch site.
And there's the fact that the borg have always attacked the Federation with a single cube each time. And with those 6 Transwarp Hubs (now down to 5), don't tell me it would be hard to send a dozen cubes to get rid of the Federation once and for all. My theory is that the Borg are simply testing us. They send a cube every few years or so to see if we have the potential to adapt our technology to defend ourself against them, thereby providing the Collective with new technologies and ideas. If a cube gets through and assimilates us, then that means we have no more potential for advancement in the eyes of the Borg. Of course, for this we have to think of the Borg as being a powerful and unstoppable adversary, not the travesty of a threat they've been made to be in Voyager. Even Seven said humanity was a rather insignificant species for the Borg. So how come Janeway finds a way to outsmart them time and time again? And why haven't they assimilated the entire galaxy by now? With their various ships, planets, unnimatrices and transwarp hubs, they could be everywhere IF they wanted to be. Well, that's what I think.
as for the borg testing humans---thats very possible. but then again Omega, those are the books from which I got my 2D man examples and I learned of those from a book called "Hyperspace" by Michio Kaku. AS FOR THE BORG.... I think the cube was sacrificial all along, as I explained in detail in another post at Subspace Relay awhile back. It was just a dveice to stall the fleet long enough for the sphere to do its thang. And the Queen had planned all along to assimilate the Big E and her intrepid Captain. B/c in the movie, the first point at which the Queen changes plans (that we see anyway) is when they lose the deflector dish; after the time travel, after a good deal of assimilation of the E, and after firing on the complex. If we accept the fact that the Queen can have personal vendettas, then she can have one against Picard (and Janeway) and carried out ST:FC as a double whammy, to seek vengenace upon Picard and to assimilate the Enterprise while also eliminating the Federation. Also, if you think of the Double E as the culmination of starship advancement since Wolf 359 (including Borg and non-Borg related enhancements), it makes sense to assimilate that one on the 'come back again to test them repeatedly and get new tech' theory. As for why they chose FC events over others that could've destroyed the Federation and gotten the Enterprise/Picard, there must be variables and info that the Collective knows and that we don't which influenced the decisision. This is weak I know, I could make a stronger point but I don't have the time right now. I'm sure I'll end up elaborating as this thread spirals toward infinity...
Of course having a transwarp conduit in Earth's backyard pretty much invalidates the borg having a vendetta against the Federation. I mean the borg attacks on Earth make a little more sense if the borg still have some distance to travel. Say that the closest aperture opened some 15 years (at maximum borg-warp) from Earth. The cubes that have attacked would've been ones that were already exploring/assimilating the Alpha Quadrant (actually Beta). The aperture to Earth could have been established just minutes before the events in Endgame, not giving the borg enough time send 15 or 20 cubes to assimilate the Federation. [ June 14, 2001: Message edited by: Obi Juan ]
Then again, they'd already assimilated him once. Don't they take backups, for heaven's sake? Or was whichever droneresponsible for off-site storage on the BoBW cube shirking his responsibilities? 8)
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I like Douglas Adams' theory: "Well, if you'd like to know, I can tell you that in your universe you move freely in three dimensions that you call space. You move in a straight line in a fourth, which you call time, and stay rooted to one place in a fifth, which is the first fundamental of probability. After that it gets a bit complicated, and there's all sorts of stuff going on in dimensions thirteen to twenty-two that you really wouldn't want to know about."
Posted by Sidewinder (Member # 50) on :
If we're incapable of understanding the fifth dimension, where has the idea come from? Or did it just come about when someone said there are three dimensions, there are four dimenions, so there is a fifth?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, we can understand it just fine. I mean, it's just math. But a fourth spatial dimension is simply something our brains aren't designed to handle visually. It's like the number i. You can do math with i. Lots of math. It's a perfectly useful little number. But you can't go out and buy i apples or e ties, or a vest of infinite length.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
String theory has absolutely nothing to do w/ what you described there. Please don't confuse the two. You're talking about warping space. String theory claims that all matter and energy, at the fundamental level, is made up of tiny vibrating string-shaped things.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
IIRC, string theory needs 26 (!) dimensions to work, for some no-doubt interesting reasons. This same theory also 'creates' the tachyon particle, with an imaginary mass (and is also the particle abused by Star Trek).
Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
TSN and Sol are right. Hyperspace is a fifth spatial dimension in addition to the 3 others and 4th - time. Theoritically, we can travel through hyperspace (if it exists) breaking Einstien's Theories of Relativity. It all goes along with that concept of warping space so that two separate points become closer and closer until finally there is a tear in spacetime and a wormhole opens, allowing passage between the two. But to build our own Enterprise, we first need to find out whether hyperspace actually exists. Mathematically, like Sol said, its possible. But that's a long way from setting sail from Utopia Planitia. 
)
Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
I forgot the one thing that I meant to post all along.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Just to prevent this from being understandable, what is the hypothetical difference between the fictional 'subspace' and the scientific hyperspace?
Five dimensions: x,y,z,t and France
Four dimensions: x,y,z,t
Three dimensions: x,y,z
Two dimensions: x,y
One dimension: x
Zero dimensions: ehhhhh
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
The fourth dimension is Duration.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Subspace" is just a made-up word. Its meaning, as you've pretty well pointed out, is rather nonsensical.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Actually, subspace and hyperspace are more or less interchangable SF words for the same concept.
Posted by Sidewinder (Member # 50) on :
This really has nothing to do with our topic, but I find it interesting that in the middle of the section, TSN's number of posts has not changed compared to the post near the bottom of this page.
Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
I think as far as Star Trek is concerned, subspace is just another word for hyperspace and that they are the exact same concept. Just another example of Trek distinguishing itself by calling it something different (starship instead of spaceship, warp drive instead of hyperdrive, subspace instead of hyperspace). Although I've heard differing accounts of how warp drive actually works (haven't read the TNGTM lately). There are multiple concepts of real world faster than light drives one of which works by warping space in front and back and others by 'punching' through normal space using hyperspace. I seem to recall warp driving being regarded as both.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...I find it interesting that in the middle of the section, TSN's number of posts has not changed compared to the post near the bottom of this page."
Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
I can't see the borg as being any masters of time travel, or them being particularly committed to it as a method of conquering worlds. For they would have ample opportunity to conquer earth, ie at any 'time' they like.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote:
TSN's number of posts has not changed compared to the post near the bottom of this page
Posted by Sidewinder (Member # 50) on :
Sorry to confuse you TSN. I do believe that Harry has answered my question. In your posts (that would actually be everyone's posts) this appears:
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Ah. Yes, he was right. It shows the current total every time you load a thread. Each post doesn't show what the total was at the time it was made.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Do you think maybe the Borg got the jump on Buckaroo Bonzai before they got across the 8th dimension? Maybe that's why that movie didn't come out...
Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
Not to throw this topic completely off track but what was the deffinate purpose of the borg time traveling back to earth's past?
Posted by TerraZ (Member # 233) on :
I always found the time travelling premise of FC to be kinda stupid. The Borg thrive to get closer to perfection by assimilating new technologies and new species. Why the hell would they go back in time to assimilate a species who would undoubtedly have primitive technology and would provide far less drones than assimilating the Federation in full force in the present would?
Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
didn't you read my more believable reason why the borg went back in time in FC?
remember Echeb's people were somewhat spared after the borg took their world...but the borg would drop by every few years to assimilate any new tech the survivors invented.
the queen also did say they were gonna test a new assimilation virus to assimilate Earth...making it sound like the borg were out of ideas...LOL
DU'H SEND MORE THAN A CUBE NEXT TIME!
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Regarding the dimentional debate, there are a couple really good books out there. "Flatland" and "Sphereland". They take place in a 2-D universe, where the main character is a square. Literally.
Posted by Stingray (Member # 621) on :
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I read Kaku's Hyperspace. If you're interested in another good (and more recent) book like that, I'd recommend Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe. It covers a lot of ground. I just bought it and have started re-reading it, because I didn't really get half of it the first time I read it... *L*
Posted by Obi Juan (Member # 90) on :
The events in First Contact would have made more sense if the borg somehow perceived the federation as posing a special threat to them. I always thought it would be cool if the borg revealed that their special obsession with humanity had to do with receiving a tachyon transmission from their future selves warning that the Federation would someday destroy the collective.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
"We will add your distinctiveness to our own" says the BQ. That's what they're after, not human technology, but human, well, humanity. They go back to assimilate Earth at one of the crucial points in its history - just as it is about to take the first step towards being one of the most powerful and tenacious species in the Galaxy in just three hundred years (presumably the Borg's assessment of World War III was that it got rid of a lot of the riff-raff).
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Last I heard, the token line was "We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own". So they didn't want human humanity. Just human bodies and technology.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
But it's what she says to Picard just after he offers to exchange himself for Data. She says he's noble, a quality they lack, and they'll add his distinctiveness to their own.
Posted by TheF0rce (Member # 533) on :
I don't see how assimilating Picard will make the borg noble LOL---nah she just have a crush on him.