Master CPO - 3 chevrons & 3 dots
Senior CPO - 3 chevrons & 2 dots (O'Brien)
CPO - 3 chevrons & 1 dot
PO 1st Class - 3 chevrons
PO 2nd Class - 2 Chevrons
PO 3rd Class - 1 Chevron
Crewman - 3 diagonal lines*
Crewman Apprentice - 2 diagonal lines*
Crewman Recruit - 1 diagonal line*
*the lines go from bottom left to upper right.
Hope this helps!
Oh yes (an afterthought)
Chief Warrant Officer - 2 half pips**
Warrant Officer - 1 half pip**
According to the site, the WO is level with SCPO on experience and used when a SCPO want to go to an officer rank. O'Brien used this in the early seasons of DS9 - maybe this is true and he was hoping to become a Lt or something???? I don't know - maybe, maybe not - the site is made by a fan.
** the bit that is added to Ensign to make them a Lt (junior grade).
[ June 12, 2001: Message edited by: akb1979 ]
http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/sf-eranks.gif
I also decided to come up with Starfleet Marine enlisted ranks: http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/mc-eranks.gif
That chevron thing is listed in the Encyclopedia as the rank for Chief of Operations. A single half pip is listed as Chief Warrant Officer. For the Maquis rank insignia, a single "half-bar" is equivalent to the half-pip.
.
A WO is inbetween the officer and enlisted ranks. Officers are commissioned, while a warrant is not. However, warrants are entitled to salutes from enlisted personnel, just as an officer is. Warrants are given to enlisted personnel with a high degree of skill and capability in their given specialization. A WO or CWO is respected highly for their experience, and capabilities, because they rose all the way through the enlisted rank ladder to reach this rank. The warrant ranks are equivalent to officer ranks. A WO is equal to an Army/Marine Corps/Air Force second lieutenant, or a Navy ensign. The ranks go up to CW4, equivalent to a major, or lieutenant commander. They recieve the same benefits that any officer of that rank is entitled to. WO's are in a class all of their own.
As for an ablesman, he/she is the lowest enlisted rank on the totem pole. They are a throwback to the age of sail. The closest comparison is a Navy seamen. Hope this helps.
quote:
The films II-VII have the following NCO rank pins: ables'man, Petty Officer 1st Class, CPO, Senior CPO, Master CPO 2nd Class, Master CPO.
Nope, the Movie rank pins in the Encyclopedia are full of mistakes.
There is no Fleet Captain rank and the Lt. Cmdr. pin is incorrect.
The pins for the NCOs are incorrect too, eg the Master CPO 2nd class pin does not exist.
And the correct ranks are:
Master CPO
Senior CPO
Chief Petty Officer
Petty Officer 1st class
Petty Officer 2nd class
Able Seaman
Check my homepage for the correct system if you want.
quote:
Originally posted by Warped1701:
Seigfried;A WO is inbetween the officer and enlisted ranks. Officers are commissioned, while a warrant is not. However, warrants are entitled to salutes from enlisted personnel, just as an officer is.
No he isn't. A WO is addressed as 'Sir' (or 'Ma'am') but is not to be saluted. The salute is reserved for a holder of the commission.
I know the 2nd (yes, I mean 2nd) ed. of the Encyclopaedia has Movie-era NCO rank pins. How 'canon' are they, though? Have they been seen on screen or are they figment's of Drexler's imagination?
quote:
I know the 2nd (yes, I mean 2nd) ed. of the Encyclopaedia has Movie-era NCO rank pins. How 'canon' are they, though? Have they been seen on screen or are they figment's of Drexler's imagination?
Maybe you can compare the E2-pins with the pins on this site:
http://www.8ung.at/fitz/uniforms/2278-2350/ranks.htm
The pins from my site are derived from Bob Fletcher's notes, so I'm pretty sure that they were used in the movies and therefore canon.
quote:
That chevron thing is listed in the Encyclopedia as the rank for Chief of Operations. A single half pip is listed as Chief Warrant Officer.
Well as we all know the Encyclopedia isn't always right, and in my opinion it definitely isn't right in this case. Throughout DS9 it was made pretty clear that Chief of Operations was a position not a rank. In addition, O�Brien was stated on at least one occasion to be a Chief Petty Officer.
Also note that the chief in Valiant wore the same insignia as O�Brien.
As for Chief Warrant Officer, I am pretty sure that there has been no canonical mention of them, though I do believe that a single half pip is a good insignia for them (if they do exist).
Hmm.
Did any of TPTB ever mention what the square pip was supposed to symbolize?
quote:
The 1st and 2nd Class Petty Officer rank pins are so similar, how are you supposed to tell them apart at a glance?
Good point. I don't know. It's hardly possible to identify the NCO pins in the movies.
As for the square pips, I seem to recall seeing those a lot in the first season of TNG. In fact, I think the first Chief Engineer (Argyle?) wore square pips on his collar the couple times we saw him. Maybe the square pips were originally intended to be some sort of special engineering identifier?
quote:
and so it's apparently correct now.
Nope, it isn't. One look at the Lt. Cmdr. pin shows that.
Can anyone scan the E2-site?
I don't have a clear picture of it though, can someone confirm/deny this please?
Just a few for example
http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/nco1.jpg
http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/nco2.jpg
http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/nco3.jpg
http://flareupload.hypermart.net/files/nco4.jpg
[ June 15, 2001: Message edited by: Spike ]
[ June 16, 2001: Message edited by: Harry ]
At least, that's my interpretation.
--Jonah
In the TNG era, "Petty Officers" and "Warrant Officers" have been combined.
Upon achieving, say, Petty Officer First Class, the holder recieves a warrant of equivalent service to an Ensign, and as someone puts in more service, as well as a continually-increasing petty officer rank (rate?) they'd also get a continually-increasing warrant. (The rate might simply climb based on years of service while the warrant might advance on a merit-only system.)
In the uber-egalitarian world of TNG, petty officers w/warrants would actually get to wear the same rank insignia as their equivalently-qualified friends who'd gone through the Academy.
So, O'Brien in "Encounter at Farpoint" held an ensign's warrant, which bumped up to lieutenant (jg) by the second season and eventually hit full lieutenant. (Methinks Picard was impressed as hell with this guy.) This would explain why absolutely every extra on the show had officer's pips on, because some of them were in face enlistees w/warrants.
Anyway, as Riker "yes lieutenant" proved, this system promoted confusion when addressing these guys. So, around the time of "Realm of Fear," Starfleet ditches the Barneyriffic everyone-is-special system and makes all the petty officers wear single hollow pips.
This, too, is kinda unfair as well. So finally, compromise... the new rank system introduced in "The Visitor" has chevrons to indicate rating as a petty officer and pips alongside them to indicate warrant officer equivalency.
Evidently it's damn near impossible to get a lt. cmdr's equivalency in warrant form, as O'Brien would have kept a full lieutenant's equivalency from season 4 of TNG (yes/no?) to the end of DS9, or nine years.. which is in the Data zone.
Thoughts?
[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
[ June 18, 2001: Message edited by: The_Tom ]
So if you have that whole officer equivalency thing going, he would have made it to "the Data Zone".
--Jonah
O'Brien was head of an engineering department on a large starship. He was promoted to the chief engineer (called chief of operations) of an entire starbase. Definitely a promotion.
Not that I think your wrong. It would make sense if he got bumped up to Senior Chief around the same time. That may have even been the reasoning behind giving him (what appears to be) a senior chief insignia.
This of course seems to be another case when the art department and the writers don't seem to have the faintest idea of what each other are doing (which is the reason we get four-star rear admirals). Someone in power may have told the art department to design O'Brien's patch to resemble the current senior chief petty officer's patch. But I don't think the writer's ever got (or chose to regard this information).
Go to this site. Now, click on the Database icon, then click on the UFP icon that loads up. OK, now scroll down until you find the "RANK COMPARISON CHARTS" and then click on the Starfleet insignia to access the section. Right, the first page is only concerned with officer ranks - we're not talking about them (although I must point out that they've missed out Fleet Captain) so goto the bottom and click "Continue".
OK, now we are on the page showing enlisted ranks of Starfleet. The bit I'd like to draw your attention to is the experience table at the bottom. As far as I can tell, this describes a similar promotion system to the one discussed by The_Tom. The reasons why I show you this are:
1) The person who made this site has put a lot of effort into it.
2) The site needs fresh blood to it - so join up! 
(Cheeky, ain't I?)
3) The pics are pretty decent
4) I'd like a better explaination for the Warrant Officer ranks and higher NCO ranks too (experience wise) as I'm not sure it works.
Anyway, as most people say: discuss (please).
(And yes I love these smiley faces)
What I'd suggest for aesthetics is moving the warrant ranks down one step, so that one black pip coincides with the one dot (plus three chevrons) of CPO rate, two black pips coincide with the two dots of SCPO, and *three* black pips coincide with the three dots of MCPO.
This would also mean that O'Brien's moving from his single-pipped TNG "warrant" to a supposed DS9 rate of SCPO would look like a promotion to him, not just a transfer. Of course, the collar markings of O'Brien never made real sense, but at least we could now pretend that he was a CPO all the time aboard the Enterprise, simply with a warrant given by Picard because he was short of real officers in "Encounter at Farpoint". This warrant expired some years into DS9, by which time O'Brien's "real" rate had been raised with a promotion from CPO to SCPO. O'Brien then reverted to this rate, since he and Sisko felt it unnecessary to play with warrants any more - things were less formal aboard the station than they had been aboard the Federation Flagship.
We could also pretend that during the times O'Brien wore two pips in TNG (and Riker stupidly mistook him for Lieutenant), his warrant was temporarily hitched up one notch for some reasons of bureaucracy (perhaps his status as transporter chief was endangered because another single-pip warrant officer had temporarily come aboard, and a pecking order had to be established?). Toying with warrants feels more acceptable than toying with actual ranks and rates - warrants come and go, while ranks at least are eternal.
Naturally, every time we thought we saw one of O'Brien's TNG pips was silver, we were just seeing things. The pips were solid black all the time. 
(Comparing the pips in "Encounter at Farpoint" and "All Good Things.." should be proof enough!)
Timo Saloniemi
That's some serious research, and would seem to match the canon data very well. Also, I see little reason to bump a Bajoran General down to the level of a Starfleet Fleet Captain - Generals should be flag officers (Admirals in Starfleet parlance) in all the naming systems.
The Romulan system looks all right to me, based on what precious little we know of it so far. One could, however, insert the putative rank of Sub-centurion there as well, and thus fill the gaps in comparison with Starfleet ranks (Centurion=Lt.Cmdr, Sub-centurion =Lt).
For the lowest rank in the Tal'Shiar system, I suggest sticking to good old US Army ranks, since all the other T'S ranks seem to follow that pattern as well. So instead of Uhlan, there would simply be 1st Lt.
The Cardassian system could be more complex than shown, for the simple reason that the Universal Translator refuses to translate the rank names. It could be that there is no correlation between Cardassian and Starfleet ranks at all. A Gul could correspond to any Starfleet rank, depending on circumstances - perhaps the position is more decisive than the rank, so that the commanding officer of a tiny patrol boat is a Gul, grossly outranked by the Glinn of a larger ship. It seems to matter which "Order" the officer is coming from, too - apparently, the smaller the number of the Order, the higher the influence of the officer.
The Klingon system is of course a total mess (not because you'd have messed it up, but because Paramount did). I simply refuse to believe that the Klingon Colonel could be a flag rank. More probably, the Klingon system once again is a perfect parallel of the US system, yet the Klingons utilize both Army *and* Navy ranks. What about this theory: Klingons vastly prefer Army ranks, since those show that the officer has shown prowess in ground combat, the highly honorable form of warfare. Naval warfare is less honorable because you can't slay starships with bare hands, but have to relinquish some of the honor of the kill to a *machine*. Thus, even the people flying the starships typically carry Army ranks, but there are special situations where they accept naval designations. OTOH, to proudly carry nothing but a naval rank shows that the guy or gal must be REALLY good at what he's doing in terms of space battle.
In fact, the only Klingon naval ranks we have heard so far are "Captain" and "Commander", right? And these might not be ranks at all, but simply positions: the top officer of a ship (probably a Colonel, Lt.Colonel or Major in rank) is the captain of the ship, or the commander of his crew, by job description!
Timo Saloniemi
quote:
Master CPO - 3 chevrons & 3 dots
Senior CPO - 3 chevrons & 2 dots (O'Brien)
quote:
Originally posted by Shik:
Alexander stated that he was a "bekk" in DS9.
Say what? A "bekk"? What's that when it's at home?
Hehe!So what is a "bekk"?
quote:
Originally posted by Timo:
That's some serious research, and would seem to match the canon data very well. Also, I see little reason to bump a Bajoran General down to the level of a Starfleet Fleet Captain - Generals should be flag officers (Admirals in Starfleet parlance) in all the naming systems.
Yep, some serious research and yeah, the Bajoran General is way too low.
quote:
Originally posted by Timo:
The Romulan system looks all right to me, based on what precious little we know of it so far. One could, however, insert the putative rank of Sub-centurion there as well, and thus fill the gaps in comparison with Starfleet ranks (Centurion=Lt.Cmdr, Sub-centurion =Lt).
Naw - too many "subs" then.
quote:
Originally posted by Timo:
The Cardassian system could be more complex than shown, for the simple reason that . . .
Mmm, I had originally thought that there were only two ranks - Gul and Glinn. Could be weong.
quote:
Originally posted by Timo:
The Klingon system is of course a total mess (not because you'd have messed it up, but because Paramount did).
Can't and won't argue with ya there!Sorry for dragging this old thread but I was doing some more research and remembered this - a real bugger to find in all of these threads - perhaps a mini search engine could be created to make searching for topics a little easier? Just a thought . . .
And Navy and army ranks existing altogether in the Klingon system? We actually do that.. if you go aboard a US Navy ship you have the ships Captain , XO maybe a Commander, and whos in charge of the marines on board? a colonel, or a major or some other marine rank, and a whole bunch of privates and corporals and sergeants.. maybe its a fleet and youd have an admiral as OTC -officer in tactical command- and a general tagging along? The marines use different ranks but are actually part of the Navy Department because they sail with them