In TUC, Valeris is referred to as "Lieutenant" but her uniform rank pin is not that of either a lieutenant or a Lt. JG. In fact, it is not a pin I have seen or noticed on any other officer's uniform throughout the movies. It looks like this:
Is there such a rank as LT. SENIOR GRADE? Is this what this pin is?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
LCDR.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
No, that's not the Lt. Cmdr. pin, the Lt. Cmdr. pin has a broken bar which runs vertically inside the outline. (Like the Lt. JG. pin)
Can somebody scan it out of the encyclopedia?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
One of the main problems is that there were no lieutenant commanders in any of movies 2-7
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Data wasn't a Lieutenant Commander?
Geordi LaForge wasn't a Lieutenant Commander?
So I imagined Worf getting promoted to Lieutenant Commander at the beginning of Generations?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Obviously, he meant lt. commanders in the old uniforms. Even I'm not that picky...
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Okay, the devil's in the details, so let's get this straight. There were no Lt.Cmdrs in the movie 2. This was mainly because Bob Fletcher forgot to design a rank pin for them! Soon enough, fans reminded him of this omission, and he designed a Lt.Cmdr pin. That's the one shown in the above picture.
Unfortunately, some unrelated sources had already dreamed up their own Lt.Cmdr pin, the one with the broken rung. This pin was never used in the movies, yet has erroneously perpetuated itself in reference works.
The real Lt.Cmdr pin was seen on several characters, beginning with at least ST4. Valeris wore it while addressed as Lieutenant, which is a bit odd - it's very rarely that a Lt.Cmdr gets addressed that way, outside of angry dressings-down. Her replacement at Enterprise helm wore the same pip after Valeris had been taken to custody.
Technically, though, it IS correct to say that nobody in movies 2 and 7 wore the pin or had the rank. It just isn't correct to say that nobody did that in movies 2 THROUGH 7.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Wow.. make a simple statement.. a-hem.. here we go.. in the portions of movies 2-7 which took place in the era of the red jacket uniforms, nobody was overtly addressed or identified in a script (in a canonical manner) as Lieutenant Commander.
This doesnt mean there were no lieutenant commanders in the background, but if there were there is nothing that confirms to us there were. More confusion is, since the orginal costume designs neglected to include it, there is little decisive evidence as to what was intended to be lieutenant commander.
But to examine the story, original drafts probably included Saavik, as a lieutenant commander.. when Saavik was removed from the part and Valeris created in her place, the producers intended for her to be a lieutenant, probably newly graduated from the academy based on Spock's comments. In fact, she was issued an academy red turtleneck. But her jacket bore the grey department color (another serious problem) and what is assumed to be a Lt. Cmdr. pin. This would correspond to the position Saavik was supposed to hold, Lt. Cmdr in ships services (science, nav, whatver.. they really werent clear on who got yellow and who got grey, since the only science officer we saw was spock who wore command white, and chekov wore grey to be a navigator but his true department was security)
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
If I recall correctly (is that "IIRC" for short? - I'm new to this), Sulu wore the insignia displayed above by The Mighty Monkey of Mim in ST: II through to ST: V and was (as far as I know) a Lieutenant-Commander. Thus Valeris was a Lieutenant-Commander and addressed "Lieutenant" for short as it might have been a recent promotion and possibly provisional.
As for Lieutenant and Lieutenant, junior grade insignias - they are as specified in the Encyclopedia.
[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: akb1979 ]
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Sulu (and Chekov, and Uhura, and McCoy, and sometimes Scotty) were full commanders (or later, above) in all the movies, thus eliminating the need for a lieutenant commander insignia to be used on the main cast.
Their pin was a variant of the one shown above except with two horizontal bars
[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
BTW, a great site to get graphics of the ranks to look at is Fitz's site.
You should check out the whole site, though, from here.
Great stuff!
Also, I remember the book Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise having the unofficial pin (I think). That book also said the Enterprise refit was an Enterprise Class starship and that the E-A used to be called the USS Ti-Ho.
[ October 01, 2001: Message edited by: Ace ]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
The vertical-broken-bar version is in the encyclopedia, too.
Oh well, another "mistake."
But seriously, is there such a rank (if not in SF than in today's navy) as Lt. Senior Grade?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
No, not that I am aware of.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
There is. It's just not called Lieutenant Senior Grade, it's simply "Lieutenant" ... (obviously, if there's a Lieutenant junior grade, then the next step up would be a senior-grade lieutenant, although it's not "Lieutenant (s.g.)" ... )
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Maybe we need several good scans of Kim Catrell so we can look at what's on her uniform.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Or whats inside her uniform.
Yum-yum-yum.
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
There's always Sex and the City if you want that...
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
There's also a movie called Porky's which features her as a high school cheerleader coach in the 1950s who gets it on with the basketball coach in the boys' locker room. Hilarity ensues.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Actually, I just made that site up. If it actually links somewhere, that's just damn sad.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Hmmm... That domain name is available, and I have some cash to burn. In addition, I have a friend who is a master at finding pictures of beautiful women posing in the nude. Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
paramount wouldnt let you have 'startrek' in the name
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
St*RTrek?
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
I don't want to see Uhura nude in her current age... hell I don't even want to see Kirk nude back in the TOS days. The only nude's I've seen are the ones of the Klingon males from a web site.
Have you ever thought about becoming an escort to make financial ties meet?
[ October 03, 2001: Message edited by: Michael_T ]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The worst part is, he isn't kidding about the nude Klingon website. Oy.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
theres a slash site with some really well done photochops of Kirk and Spock going down on each other (i mean well done in that the color and blending was technically right. The subject matter is frightenening in the extreme)
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
Um, going back to the TOS and ranks - Ensign and Crewmembers had a blank sleeve and Lt had a solid gold stripe with Lt. Comdr having a solid gold stripe with a broken stripe above it. Brings me to the question - does TOS have the rank "Lt, junior grade" and if so would it be one broken stripe?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
There was never a Lieutenant (jg) rank shown, and I think it would've been the broken sleeve, if it had ever been seen. I think TOS just had:
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Every incarnation of Starfleet we've seen has been in keeping with the rank system of the U.S. Navy at the time, so I'm confident assuming that while no Lt. JGs were seen on TOS, that rank did exist, and would be a single broken stripe.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
I don't remember seeing the Lt. Jg. rank in TOS, but some of the publicity photos for TMP showed Chekov wearing that rank. The one I'm thinking of is in the booklet that came with the 20th anniversary edition of the TMP soundtrack. The cast photo on page 3 shows Decker in a tan one-piece (which he didn't wear in the film) and Chekov on the far right with Lt. Jg. rank. However, he was a full lieutenant in the film, so we never did really "see" the rank on screen.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I once did hear a rumor that a broken braid was indeed seen early on in TOS, namely on the sleeve of Joe Tormolen, the hapless lieutenant who kills himself in "The Naked Time".
The screencaps I've seen have been inconclusive, and "The Naked Time" is one of the TOS episodes I don't remember *that* clearly (I've only seen it once, when I didn't yet know what my life's calling would be, so I didn't even have my VCR ready, let alone my eyes tuned for rank identifiers). Does anyone have the means to confirm or refute this? Supposedly the broken-braid insignia would appear more than once if they were created in the first place, probably on background characters during the first season.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
Give Timo the Eagle Eye Prize for today! Just loaded "The Naked Time" into my VCR, and there's a scene in the lounge where Tormolen gets a meal out of the food slot. He's wearing a blue shirt with a single row of borken braid. A few minutes later he's sitting across the table from Sulu, and you can clearly see the difference in their rank braids. Finally, in the scene where Tormolen stabs himself, there are several shots where you can see his rank clearly.
So we've seen the broken braid. Since Ensign is no braid, and Lt. is one solid row, logically Tormolen is a Lt. Jg., even if they never said it.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Cool! Screencap, anyone?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
What is a Monkey of Mim?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
What is a Malnutured Snay?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
And this officially makes whoever said that there is no such thing as a Lieutenant Junior Grade in TOS a f**king idiot. And earns them a idiot medal or trophy.
Star Trek: The Magazine can add it to the other illustrious accolades it has received from the Flare Message Boards.
I suggest they take the 'Flare Lt JG F**king Idiot Award' and hang it right next to the 'I Made Up Type-XII Phasers Because I'm Sexually Inadequate Trophy' and their 'I Drew Schematics of the Defiant Wrong Because My Head Was Up My Ass Plaque'.. or was that Fact Files. oh well.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Even the ST Encyclopedia has no TOS-Lt. JG.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
As you are so fond of pointing out, Spikey, the Encyclopedia is not infallible.
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
Yeah, remember that the Encyclopedia II had the Movie-era rank pins totally screwed up (I think ever Admirality pin was wrong). Thankfully, that's one of the very few things in the Encyclopedia III's "original" section that was actually changed, and now it appears they got it right.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Is the Encyclopedia III the one that had evrything from the Encyclopedia II and then the 'added' entries updating the nextfew years of DS9, VGR & Insurrection? Just making sure i know which one i have
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Yes. That's why I (and a few people who picked up on it) call it the Encyclopedia 2.5.
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
I really hope they come out with an Encyclopedia IV once we are a few seasons into Enterprise, so that we can get everything from the end of Voyager, everything from Trek X, and the beginnings of Enterprise.
