...TOS were remade? As I've watched more and more TOS episodes recently, I've found myself repeatedly distracted by just how silly a lot of it looks. Not necessarily the stories (though, in some cases...). But the campiness, the VFX, the props/sets, some of the acting... Not to mention the continuity violations that bother people like me (you know who you are...).
So, what I keep thinking is this: What if someone remade TOS? Just redo every episode, but w/ new actors, sets, &c. Some words here and there would be altered (early references to "lithium" changed to "dilithium", and such), but the same scripts would be used otherwise. It seems to me that this would make the epsiodes a lot more watchable, while maintaining the most important aspect: the stories.
So, what do people think of this? I think it would be nice to have a TOS that fits better into the ENT-TNG-DS9-VOY scheme, while still keeping the stories that really made it what it was.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I've had the same thought a few times. I think that the product would be very good and help smooth out some of the inconsistencies that occurred during its run. To see some of the episodes in brand new special effects would be awesome.
However, I really don't think that it would work. First, the Trek community would probably go to hell in a handbasket as factions formed around The New Original Series. Those fans favoring TOS would accuse the fans of TNOS of revisionist history while the fans of TNOS would accuse the fans of TOS of clinging on to something obsolete. Imagine the current Enterprise debates only a hell of a lot more intense and bloodier. Second, the Trek community would run into the problem of which series to accept as canon. Should we go with TOS and all its flaws or a more improved TNOS? That would undoubtedly lead us into more arguments about original writers' intent. Lord help us if Berman and Braga were put in charge of the production; we'd never hear the end of the "B&B ARE DEMON SPAWN!" remarks.
Finally, I don't think I could accept a redone TOS. A lot of the campiness were part of what did make TOS a lot of fun. I mean, watching a cargo hold full of living toupees fall on William Shatner is priceless. The oddball color scheme and the ridiculously large props (in comparison to what we have now) really do add a lot to the overall aura of TOS. I guess I'd feel that a lot of the stuff that couldn't be accounted for in the stories, direction, acting, and whatnot would be lost. It just wouldn't be the spirit of TOS if we didn't that exact same model of the Enterprise soaring across the screen.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And, in the end, what purpose would it serve? Old fans who consider TOS to be the Star Trek would be annoyed that different people are playing their favourite characters. And the large group of people who only really watched TNG aren't going to be any more interested in it than Enterprise.
The only people who are bothered are the hard-core fans who are distracted by the dated visuals, and continuity errors. And frankly, if hearing "lithium" stops you from enjoying the show, then please go and make friends with real people. The dated imagery, fair enough. It is hard to maintain your suspension of disbelief when McCoy uses a 60s microphone to test someones heart. I enjoy Doctor Who, but I wouldn't mind seeing it with a decent budget. However, I'd want to see new stuff. Not old stuff that I'd already seen.
It would start of as a novelty, but after a while, wouldn't we just get bored of episodes we'd already seen? Sure, "The Doomsday Machine" would be cool to see, and "Balance of Terror", and a few others, but are you dying to see a redone version of "And the Children Shall Lead" or (heaven forbid) "The Way to Eden"?
Not to mention that, essentially, Paramount would no longer be able to sell TOS, in the same way that no-one sells the non-special edition Star Wars films. When Paramount makes new episodes, they add them to their existing pile of what they can sell. In this case, they'd be replacing them. It's one thing to do updated versions of the films, because the outlay there is a tiny percentage of what it would cost to reshoot them. In this case though, they'd be losing 79 whole episodes and replacing them. It'd be poor financial judgement, all to help some fans who get an ulcer everytime they hear "Space Central".
(As an aside, I'm all for tweaking stuff to fix things. For instance, in the Special Edition of TWOK that I'm sure they'll get around to doing, I'd like them to remove the line that says specifically "1996". I wouldn't mind if they removed that line from "Space Seed" either. Or if they overdubbed "Lithium" with "Dilithium" in the old episodes. But I can live without it. And reshooting the entire series? Mad.)
[ October 30, 2001: Message edited by: PsyLiam ]
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
Hey don't diss "The Way to Eden" that was a heavy jam session. j/k Paul
Posted by Phelps (Member # 713) on :
Yeah, how often do you hear Spock playing twelve-bar blues?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I burned the Way to Eden mp3s onto CD and listen to it in my car.. including the jam session.
Anyone who doesnt like it is just a Herbert
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Well, what I was thinking, what if they just went Lucas and re-did the special effects sequences and the like from TOS? Give it the whole 'Troubles & Tribbleations' effect ...
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Oh, Liam: Star Trek II: The Wrath Of Khan - Will get Special Edition treatment (ala The Motion Picture) and will be released 2nd or 3rd Quarter 2002.
I've got to go sell my copy on eBay now.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I have mentioned this before... it would be a little cheap to redo the scenes exactly as they wre staged, just with new models and lighting.
The real fun would be to embellish what was already there without contradicting what was shown too much.. a la Special Edition (excluding Greedo).
Ive already voiced my first idea: Making the four Constitutions in 'Ultimate Computer' design variants that show little details that might have been added between the original Connie design and the TMP refit (like the double bridge turbolifts, & docking ports that were added to the Phase II Enterprise. Showing variances without detracting from the TOS look)
Another idea would be finally showing the Klingon scout that assaulted Enterprise from 'Errand of Mercy' possibly it would look like a pre-Romulan influence bird of prey (grey hull rather than green, wings swept back instead of forward).
And that episode also had two fleets converging for a battle.. imagine modeling a Dominion War style scene except with TOS ships.. it would be heaven for fans like me
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
On the other hand, a new project set in or around TOS times would recieve a cautiously enthusiastic yes from me.
But if Lucas has taught us anything, it's that trying to "fix" things we remember fondly leads to nothing but pain and sorrow and the gnashing of teeth.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
To you, maybe.
Frankly, except for the Greedo/Solo shoot-out, I'm very happy with the Star Wars Special Edition.
Posted by MIB (Member # 426) on :
Yeah. I've thought about this a few times. What irritates me the most is the crappy phaser effects and that most of the alien ships in the series are either dots of light, or 300 year old sleeper ships. Those two things alone piss me off more than ANY bad acting or continuity violation.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
It might be nice to see some of the FX updated, but I wouldn't hold my breath on it. The shot-for-shot remake of Psycho a couple of years ago taught most people in Hollywood that it's a pretty stupid idea to clone a classic, and we Trek fans are a lot more demanding than the Hitchcock crowd ever have been.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Yeah. I'd say this is a good idea in theory that probably wouldn't pan out well in reality. If they were gonna do it, I think Jeff's idea of redoing the sfx and some of the sound would be the only way trek fans wouldn't take it as an affront. The whole Greedo thing really bothers me A LOT. So as long as they didn't do anything other than restoration and new SFX, it might be cool, but I don't see that being a huge cash cow unless they did it as a spec ed series with commentaries from original cast and crew. On the other hand I'm sure there's more than enough decent fanfic floating around to set another series in the same time period, maybe with little tie ins to TOS episodes (ala Sol System's suggestion). That could be super cool.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Actually, I had had this exact same idea, but with the Blake's 7 TV series. For all of its incredibly goofy special effects, aliens, costumes, & models, it was really a pretty good show. To have the same scripts redone today but with 21st century production values, it would really be a smash in my opinion.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
"Herbert?" Like, right on, daddy-o! Don't let the squares tell you how to do your thang, you dig?
On the whole I agree with Liam's analysis. You just have to let the little things go - after all, that what we're told to do with all Enterprise's little things. . . Just look at TNG and Data's "class of '78" line!
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I reach you.. i reach
Little fun continuity things like that are fun to explain later anyway. I read Michael Jan Friedman's 'My Brother's Keeper' series and it had when Jim Kirk and Gary Mitchell were getting acquainted
Gary: 'Do you play Raquetball?' James Kirk:'Raquetball is my middle name!'
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Hey- what if they re-did "The Enemy Within" with digital effects? Two Kirks! (One thing, though--that scene where the double walks out of the transporter and looks all evil is classic!) I agree with most people's opinions, that remaking TOS would be a mistake. Leave it as it is. Not that I wouldn't mind a few updates, though.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"Hey- what if they re-did "The Enemy Within" with digital effects? Two Kirks!"
Er, I don't know what version you were watching, but on the standard BBC 2 repeats shown here, we had two Kirks already.
(And, if you want an example of ahead of the time SFXs that never get any credit, look at that scene in "What Are Little Girls Made Of?" where the two Kirks talk at the dinner table. It's seamless, and it all the more impressive for being from 1966)
(Oh, and I've never got that episode title. What have sugar, spice, and everything nice got to do with robot doubles wanting to be evil?)
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Sorry. I didn't make that very clear. I meant we'd have two digital, PERFECT Kirks, as in "Back to the Future II" special effects.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Um.. still not getting it? The Kirk's were either split screened talking to each other or set up talking to each other by cutting the shot between them. The rest of the time there was a stand in facing away from the camera (like when Kirk held himself in the transporter beam). What digital effect could make that more smooth?? (short of remastering the film grain and camera cuts so they arent that apparent) I dont believe there are any existing shots that could be composited into a believable shot of the two Kirks interacting, since the original was shot specifically to avoid having to show that.
Do you want to conjure up new footage of the back of Shatner's head and paste it in over the stand in's? He doesnt look the same now?
The episode was shot masterfully, especially since it was their first experience with doubling an actor (as they would do later in 'WALGMO?' and 'I, Mudd' to name a few.) I dont understand what you think could be done
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I thought the "What Are Little Girls Made Of" stuff was supposed to be a reference to that foxy android, and by extension all such androids, foxy or otherwise.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
Alright, alright, you win. It was just a stupid comment. Disregard it.
Posted by Michael_T (Member # 144) on :
Why bother do TOS over if you can continue on where TOS left off? That would be much nicer... but the cast is old...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Yeah, that would be cool. Something that shows what happened to the origina characters after the series. And perhaps they could do it in the form of motion pictures too. The SFX would be better than the TV show was too.
Sol: The thing there is that there was only one girl android, and she wasn't even really important. There were 4 male androids (Kirby, Ruk, Brown (I think his name was), and Kirk). So either the boys were made out of nice stuff, or the producers were scared by puppy dogs tails.
Posted by Raw Cadet (Member # 725) on :
"Motion pictures," in my opinon, whether on the small screen or the big screen, is an artform, at least at its best. Certainly "Star Trek" is not always a "work of art," but the best episodes are masterpieces of television. Thus, while I think it might be acceptable to go as far as redoing the special effects, reshooting the series would be tantamount to repainting masterpieces that are in artistic styles that have fallen out of favor in a more modern flavor.
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: Raw Cadet ]
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
That's one of the dumbest analogies I've heard in recent memory.
In Trek, the "art" is the stories. By current standards, the visual aspects of the show are mediocre. Changing those wouldn't detract from the "art".
In a painting, the art is the painting itself. Change it, and you've eliminated the original art. That would be akin to rewriting Trek's stories, and then refilming them.
Remaking the shows w/ the exact same stories is more like taking a painting and putting it in a new frame. Surely that doesn't ruin the art?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I like the look of TOS a lot more than i like some of the episodes.. maybe im just a retro-pop kinda guy, but i could stand to watch 'Spocks Brain' with the sound off because im just in it for the funny costumes. And if you get a great Balance of terror or Journey to Babel out of it, than thats great too.. but I think that Trek storytelling has always been hit or miss, while the look is what keeps me coming back
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Oh, of course the visual element is important, Tim. If it wasn't, we'd just read the novels and be done with it. You can't seperate a visual/audio piece into its component parts if it was at all well done.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
They could of course do a remake of the Animated Series .
Posted by Raw Cadet (Member # 725) on :
In television, the art is not just the story; it is all of the elements. One cannot simply replace the actors and run with the exact same story; as someone else pointed out, the recent remake of "Psycho" showed how lame that method works. The stories alone were not what made classic episodes "masterpieces," and reshooting them would be an insult to the actors, director, and crew of those episodes.
[ November 02, 2001: Message edited by: Raw Cadet ]
Posted by Raw Cadet (Member # 725) on :
P.S. Should not a host be above inflammatory remarks?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Hmm... you know, if they DID do a TOS SE, they could always add Sisko and Dax into the background of "The Trouble with Tribbles"...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Someone is a host now?
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
I believe Raw Cadet is referring to TSN (moderator of the Starships & Tech. board) and his comment of "dumbest analogy." My advice, Raw Cadet:
Don't be too sensitive. You'll see comments like that a lot. The comment wasn't really directed at you, only your analogy.
Posted by mrneutron (Member # 524) on :
My three cents...
I think some "Special Edition TOS episodes could be fun, but only if they did more or less what the ST-TMP DE supposedly does, which is go back to the original intent and complete things as they were originally meant to be but were not able to be realized (yank out Matt Jeffries sketchbooks and see what things were planned).
I've seen several attempts by people to add CGI spaceships to old TOS footage and the trouble is they're always so badly done they end up looking like cartoons. Mostly bad lighting and no idea how to move the objects so they appear to have mass.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'd hesitently suggest that the ships in TOS already look like they don't have mass. I tried to work out why, since the model was still fairly big. I think that it's a combination of the ship occasionally "juddering" on screen, and the lack of that low droning noise. It makes a huge difference (and was actually in the early episodes. No idea why they took it out).
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Ace: Actually, I haven't officially been the moderator of that Forum since I got "promoted" to being an admin. We've just been really really slow about revamping the list of moderators...
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Wow. How'd you guys become moderators and admins?
Just curious. Honest.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Sexual favors.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Not Me.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Simon was the one who received the favors.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Yes. Charles just sat there taking pictures. I did mean to ask about that...
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Yeah, it was quite a time... My throat's still sore...
'Course that picture collection was nothing compared to the one of Liam and the Cirroc Lofton look-alike. Unfortunately, only the one picture survived, and Liam isn't even in it...
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
What if Mainframe Entertainment redid TAS, ala Reboot. They are getting pretty good at the CGI stuff, and I think they would do a good job at TAS. Paul
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Not to wander off topic but...
I'd forgotten about the Ciroc Lofton look alike. Has anyone still got it? It has capcom potential.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
It might still exist on my other computer. I cleaned out a lot of my recieved files recently, but there is a chance.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
We can but hope.
Didn't anyone put it on their web-space? Frank? I'm looking at you, you dirty boy.
