I do not intend this thread to be a debate over the canonicity of TAS, just a source of interest. Here is a list of all the TAS references that have been made in subsequent shows and movies, or at least all I can think of, in relative chronological order. If anyone has any to add, please do.
Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home Caitians and possibly Edoans (the races to which Lieutenants M'Ress and Arex of TAS belonged) appeared in the UFP Council Chambers.
"Conspiracy" (TNG)An Okuda-created star map seen at Starfleet Headquarters and later on display in Keiko O'Brien's schoolroom on DS9 showed sveral of the planets visited by the Enterprise in TAS, including Phylos, Kzin, Lactra VII, and Theta III.
"Unification, Part I" (TNG)Confirms events of Spock's childhood established in "Yesteryear" (TAS).
Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country Chang uses Kirk's middle name 'Tiberius' at the trial, originally established in "Bem" (TAS).
"Broken Link" (DS9) Garak mentions 'Edosian orchids,' a possible nod to the planet Edos and its people. (Lt. Arex's species.)
"Displaced" (VGR) Tuvok speaks of a childhood Vulcan ritual, the tal'oth, which is very similar to the Kahs-wan rite which Spock went through as a child in "Yesteryear" (TAS).
"Tears of the Prophets" (DS9) The Miranda-class U.S.S. ShirKahr, NCC-31905, was named for the Vulcan city that was hometown to Spock in "Yesteryear" (TAS).
"Once More Unto the Breach" (DS9) Kor mentions commanding the D-5 class battlecruiser I.K.S. Klothos, which he was seen to do in "The Time Trap" (TAS).
"Q2" (VGR) Icheb mentions that Kirk's first 5-year mission ended in 2270, reserving a nice slot in the timeline for TAS, which was supposed to represent the final 2 years of that voyage after TOS.
That's it. Again, additions are welcomed.
-MMoM
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
RE: D5/Klothos: That designation bugs me a bit. TAS is supposed to represent either the continutation of TOS's 5-year mission or a second 5-year mission. The ship in Time Trap looks just like the AMT model of the TOS Klingon ship (D7), so might it not be a D7 as well? Might there be two ships (a D7 and a D5) with the same names and the same commander?
I'm just stirring up trouble!
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I agree. There's no correlating the D-5 called Klothos mentioned in 'Once More..' with the fact that the Klothos in 'Timetrap' was a D-7. I dont think one difference in the pod would be enough to differentiate the ship from the class (after all, both the VGR 22nd century D-7 and the T&Tribbleations D-7 had vast difference and were still the same type. I'll mention it next time i hit the Klingon thread, i think the D- designations refers to arrangements or size, since they obviously dont change chronologically.
A D-5 might be a smaller type of ship, a frigate or escort, while the D-7 refers to cruiser configurations and D-12 refers to birds-of-prey
Possibly Kor (not Kang) commanded IKS Klothos, a D-5 frigate as he said in 'Once More..', then the Empire told him it was to be decommissioned after a horrible battle in which his first officer was captured. Kor stole the Klothos, and saved his exec from Sto-Vo-Kor, but was forced to abandon ship before kicking his enemy into a lava pit. After returning to Kronos, he was awarded for his courage with the gift of a new D-7 cruiser Klothos that had previously been named possibly IKS yorQ'tawn or IKS tI'Ho, which is the one we saw in 'Timetrap'.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
Oh goddamnit people, there's already a thread for this. Can't threads last more than one post before spinning off into oblivion?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
No.
And that reminds me.. did anyone notice that Data only had one and a half pips in AGT?
OK, ill play the game an post about the thread. I dont think Edosian orchids means anything given the DS9 quality for random alien names (seems like they hit upon it by chance) Things of Arex's world were called Edoan, anyway not Edosian.
[ November 13, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Er, that depends on the writer. If Moore wrote that episode, I'd say there's a fair chance it was intentional, him being the go-to guy for such references on DS9.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
How soon we forget... Moore said on his postings to AOL, that he included a TAS reference in "Once More..." It was the D5.
Edosian... have we ever HEAR Edoan? DS9 is the LAST series that just makes up names. See Voyager for that. DS9 tries to have lots of internal references. What other series can have a name of a dessert spin off into an intruiging race the subject of an entire episode!?! Idanian spice pudding anyone!?!
The other possibility is that it is named after the planet from Justice... The Edo-god ran it. Edosian.
BTW, what was the name of the Chocolates that Dr. Bashir was going to give Garak... or was it Garak going to give Dr. Bashir? Around season 3 or 4 - could have been Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast (one of the best Trek 2-parters ever!)
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
No, I don't think "Edoan" was ever uttered even in TAS (at least "Caitian" wasn't). Good catch with the Edo god, btw.
But yes, I think minor differences can count in separating D-7 from D-5. After all, some internal differences were enough to differentiate D-12 from all the other identically shaped Birds of Prey in "Generations"... Clearly, D-12 was *not* a common name for all BoPs, but a way to differentiate this outdated and retired model from the rest.
Interestingly, Kor's command of the D-5 class Klothos in his "Once More..." story seemed to involve the use of a cloaking device. So it would be nice to make the D-5 a relatively modern vessel, if we want to maintain that Klingon cloaking is a modern concept. Then again, Klingon cloaking might be an ancient invention (perhaps dating back to ENT "Unexpected"), and those TOS Klingons adversaries of Kirk's simply did not consider cloaking a necessary tactic in the respective battles.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, in "Broken Bow" they were referred to as using 'some sort of stealth technology...'
I took this as a reference to the cloak.
[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I disagree. They've been very careful about avoiding the word cloaking device. Stealthy doesn't equal cloaked, in the Trek sense.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
I've always considered cloaking as just a very effective type of stealth technology. Stealth technologies might be considered anything that makes a ship less easily observable and might include physical mean (camouflage paint, reflective materials, clouds of gas, and chaff) and electronic means (radar jamming, masking, false signals). The cloaking device, as least as seen in TOS, was a man-transportable unit. Making it so small doesn't make much sense, because unless you plan to put the device into a very very small ship (the size of a phone booth, say), the small size just allows it to be stolen easily by Captain Kirk and a set of ears. But before this cloaking device I'm sure the Romulans had similar cloaking systems built right into the ship. Even earlier than that I'm sure they had less effective sensor countermeasures. Therefore, I think cloaking systems and devices are on a continuum with stealth technology.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
That works with the Romulans. The BOP in "Balance of Terror" dissapeared physically, but was still (just about) trackable on sensors. It was said to have some sort of invisibility screen, not a cloak. I don't think "cloaking device" was mentioned until "The Enterprise Incident." And after then, cloaking was still a Romulan only thing, for example, in "That Which Survives"...
Kirk: Could it be a Romulan Ship, using their cloaking device?
That's not to say the Klingons didn't have cloaks, or some other stealth technology, and the Federation was simply unaware, but it's quite obvious that to the series writers, the Romulans were the stealthy ones, and the Klingons had no hiding-technology of any kind.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
If I'm right, we didn't have actual definitive proof that Klingons could cloak until ST3...& that's probably only because of the Romulan "bird of prey" connection holdover.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I do believe you are 100% correct.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The Romulan commander called it a "cloak" in "Balance of Terror".
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
That seems right about them not knowing about Klingons being able to cloak, cause, well if you watch ST:III I don't think they even suspected Klingons being the culpruts of the distruction of the Grissom.
And it was Sulu who seemed to identify the ship (seems like Sulu might be a bit of a Klingon buff/expert!?!)
Andrew
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
The thing that really bugged me about ST3 was that Sulu and Kirk are watching the viewer, and Kirk's the only one who thinks something is funny about moving stars. Um, hello, Sulu, don't you steer the ship? Shouldn't you be aware of basic stuff like: STARS DON'T MOVE?!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Don't Tim. Please don't.
I imagine it went like this:
Original scene:
Sulu: Admiral! Those stars are moving! It could be a cloaked ship!
Kirk: Duh! Right! Er, what me do?
*arguments with director*
Sulu: Golly Admiral, the screen looks funny, but I'm stoopid
Kirk: Well young helmsman. It's farly obvious to me that there's a cloaked ship out there.
Sulu: jee wizz Admiral, you're right. I wish I was just like you.
Actually, I'd forgotten about the Romulan commander calling it a "cloak". It was still used slightly haphasardly, IIRC. And none of Kirk's lot said the term. It was only with "The Enterprise Incident" that everyone's dictionaries had been upgraded with the full term "cloaking device".
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Don't Tim. Please don't."
Eh?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I thought you were going to point out that, tecnically, stars do move around, just really slowly.
But in this case you were the bigger man. I bow to you.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Oh. I knew what he meant, and didn't even think to say that.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
But that's not what it was. There was a quick BOP flash that gave the ship away. Darn visible effects of neutrino surges...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I think the effect was probably exaggerated for the benefit of the viewers. If you'll notice, other times (as in the original "Balance of Terror" and in TUC and later) there is no visible distortion.
Posted by targetemployee (Member # 217) on :
Nitpicks: 1. IKS Klothos was commanded by Kor before the introduction of cloaking technology. This was why the venerated commander spoke about hiding his cruiser in the em fields of a planet. (Much like Lt. Riker did with the USS Potemkin in a battle with an unspecified enemy. "Peak Performance") 2. "That Which Survives" was a Star Trek story set on a Kaladan outpost. There were no Romulans in that story.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
"That Which Survives" he mentioned because it had Kirk asking Kirk: "Could it be a Romulan ship, using their cloaking device?"
Of course, whatever Kirk was asking about was not the Romulans, but he still said that in the episode. It seems he only thought Romulan ships could have cloaks at that point, or he would have said
Could it be a Romulan or Klingon ship, using their cloaking device?
But then, he could have been generalizing. oh well
[ November 17, 2001: Message edited by: CaptainMike ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Just an observation/question - I'm a bit lost, but last night, I caught, funly enough, The Enterprise Incident... it was on another channel STRAIGHT after The Voyage Home! What a coincidenc! Anyway - the whole aim of what Kirk and Spock were doing seemed to be stealing the NEW Romulan Cloaking Device... So was this a continuity gaff... what was going on in The Balance of Terror...
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Andrew,
In The Balance of Terror, Federation outposts on the Romulan Neutral Zone are being attacked and destroyed. The Enterprise's mission is to determine what is destroying them, which they quickly learn is the work of a Romulan ship equipped with a previously unknown-of 'cloaking device' --- Kirk works his wonders and out-manuevers the Romulan ship, causing the Romulan commander to finally destroy his own ship rather then be caught. It's during this mission that Romulans are discovered to be an off-shoot of the Vulcan race (which leads to conflict between Spock and -- I think -- Lt. Styles -- not sure if it's the same Styles as in ST3, tho).
I think that about covers it.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
I think we all knew that.
For the benefit of the third season viewers who might not have seen 'Balance of Terror', 'The Enterprise Incident' featured Kirk and Spock not quite remembering that episode, and being surprised that the Romulans had a cloaking device (as if they were encountering it for the first time) in that episode. That is the continuity gaffe. Its more of just an awkward conversation though. Kirk was like whats that? and Spock was like its some sort of cloaking device! and everyone looked surprised.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I have seen both episodes, so they did act as if they didn't know what a cloak was in TEI and found out that it was indeed a cloak in BoT?
But they knew that the Romulans had Cloaks for Spock and Kirk to trap themselves to able to get them to get the Cloak. Maybe it was a NEW type of cloak? Kirk didn't know what one looked like - and had to go by the reaction of the Romulan officer to know what it was. Scotty knew at least the fundamentals of a cloaking device to know how to get it to work.
Andrew
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
Nothing in "The Enterprise Incident" suggested that the cloaking device was unknown, though it did suggest that the particular cloaking device that Kirk and Spock were retreiving was new.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Ahhhh thankyou... from the talk here I thought in tEI that they were all walking about like this 'cloaking device' was new... it's just new tech eh?
Andrew
P.S. the Romulans that wear helmets - is that just to cut down on makeup - or do they ALSO have the pointed ears and eyebrows under the helmets?
Andrew
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
They specifically made the helmets so they wouldn't have to make ears. So they definitely didn't go to the expense of putting on ears then putting them under helmets. The ears were also the reason that the cheaper Klingons were the main villians of Star Trek.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
My memory has just fired up, and I've realised that Kirk's:
"Could it be a Romulan Ship, using their cloaking device"
was said in "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", at the approach of the Riddler's...er...Bele's invisible (oh, clever work there chaps) spaceship.
It was after "The Enterprise Incident" at any rate.
