If they are superior (which they are, in some and most points), why have they not conquered a large portion of the galaxy? There was another question, but I forgot, I'll try remembering..
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
One of the things the Borg seems to have plenty of is patience. In the Delta Quadrant, they seem to assimilate planets and such with many cubes and millions of drones. Meanwhile, the attacks in the Alpha Quadrant have been relatively small, one or two ships at the most. The reasoning behind this is possibly that they would probably have many more resources to efficiently deploy closer to their territory, and relative invulnerability to protect them from anyone but Voyager and ships named Enterprise.
Transwarp drive supposedly would enable them to GET to Earth really quickly in large numbers, but in the event that they had their transwarp disabled, it might present an unacceptable risk to be far out of range. So instead, you bide your time and wait until you can attack targets closer to your territory in large numbers. In the event of Earth, you first send one ship to test their defences, and then another with a dedicated plan. Either would be fully equipped to assimilate a whole planet if necessary (or call in more ships to do so).
The Federation is definitely a threat to the Borg, having been able to thwart them often enough. But this threat is not a direct one, as the Feds don't have the capacity to menace the Borg in their own home territory with a coordinated strike (again, Voyager aside). This is probably whyt he Borg haven't invaded in force yet, as there are probably more pesky unassimilated species closer to home which might represent a clearer danger to them.
Mark
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well, not to get this off onto a Voyager rant here, but this is one of the areas in which, IMHO, Voyager really gutted the Borg as an enemy. They made them too powerful, and, at the same time, made them wusses.
In TNG, you had a group of basically unbeatable cyborgs. They didn't show up all that often, but when they did, you died.
At the end of TNG, the got a bit of an overhaul with what Data and Lore did to the individual-ified Borg. Still not bad. We were only looking at one small group of Borg. We didn't know much about the rest of the Collective. They were still a mysterious, dangerous species. Although, now at least some of them have these transwarp tunnels.
Then along comes Voyager. They started out ok with a random encounter with a dead drone and then a marooned group of ex-drones. But all of a sudden, the Borg are everywhere, they can go anywhere in the Galaxy with the hubs, the Queen is trading insults with Janeway and we know pretty much everything there is to know about the Borg. But even with all the abilities they have to travel wherever they want, the Delta Flyer can still take on a cube.
Yah...ok. The Borg just don't have what they used to as a good enemy.
Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
The whole concept of having a "Queen" for the borg is rather ridiculous, if you ask me. It was after her introduction in First Contact that the Borg started to become less of a threat.
I've always wondered why every species that had any form of group consciousness had to have a distinctive spokesman in the first place...if the Collective has developed it's own higher sentience (the sum of it's parts developing a new individual "God-mind", so to speak) then it stands to reason that any member of the Borg could be Puppetted at will by this Higher intelligence.
I gathered that this is essentially what happened when Picard became Locutius (sp?) in Best of Both Worlds. After Picard became borg, he was given some control over the attacking cube...so while he was being used by the higher borg collective brain, he was also using it. Hence those scenes where Picard/Locutius is watching the battle with the Enterprise on that funky projector.
...
If any of that doesn't make sense, I apologize.
I just always felt that having a borg queen only served the purpose of adding some weird ass sexual tension for the scenes with Data in FC. I would have preferred the crew to have to figure everything out themselves, instead of having a borg figurehead explain shit to the audience...but that's just me.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The Borg Queen was indeed introduced to give the crew a more tangible enemy to fight. She was a plot device of sorts.
However, it could've worked. I've always preferred to think of the Borg Queen as a manifestation of the Collective. She's not an individual herself, but simply "is the Collective". She is the Collective Consciousness.
However, Voyager pretty much shot that theory to Hell when they had her trade insults with Janeway. They made it this personal grudgematch between them.
Posted by mrneutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by thoughtcriminal84: I've always wondered why every species that had any form of group consciousness
I gathered that this is essentially what happened when Picard became Locutius (sp?) in Best of Both Worlds. After Picard became borg, he was given some control over the attacking cube...
Actually, I don't think that was the intent. "Locutus" wasn't a name, it's a description of what his job was. It means "mouthpiece", he who speaks for. He was just the PR end of the Borg.
[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: mrneutron ]
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
I've always had a bit of a problem with any Borg drone having a designation of any kind. Assuming the Borg have a single collective consciousness, why would it need such labels? Do you have individual names for every cell in your body?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Yes. I may not be consciously aware of it, but my body "knows," in a sense, where (and what) all of its bits are. That information isn't stored as language, of course. But there's no reason it couldn't be in the Borg.
[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: Sol System ]
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Is that true that Locutus means "He who Speaks for"? That makes alot of sense if it's true.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, "locutio" apparently means speech or pronunciation. And then there's the word locus, which has a bit of Borgish connotation. My suspicion is that Locutus is a made up word with real Latin roots.
But I don't know Latin from a hole in the ground. Maybe Frank or Tim could say more.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
"Loquitur" is latin stage direction for "he speaks."
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Apparently, "locutus" is the past participle of the word meaning "to say" or "to speak".
Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
all of which makes you wonder: Where did the Borg learn Latin? Those scans they did of the Enterprise's computer must've been really complete, seeing as how they not only got tactically useful engineering info, but also dead earth languages...
I wish my downloads were that fast.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think they got it from the same place they got the name "Borg", a derivation of Cyborg, which is a phrase coined on Earth way before humans ever met the Borg. Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
kinda what I figured. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Where did the Borg learn Latin?"
Erm... Picard's brain, perhaps?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Mr. and Mrs. Hansen's brains? the free library at Memory Beta? or perhaps Borg is coincidentally the exact same language as Latin, thanks to cosmic happenstance..
Posted by Seven Of Nine (Member # 633) on :
I remember, it's irrelevant from the borg, but has any humans gone out of the galaxy? I didn't pay much attentiopn to any of the other series, and the only movie I saw was first Contact...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Yes. All in the original series.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
They've done it in The Next Generation.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Oh, sure, if you count that.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I know that any episode scripted by Diane Duanne is as bad as her books, but, hey, people have debated endlessly about that guy's square rank pip. Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
digressing into a tangent for a moment...
Have they ever explained how the "scans" in trek work? Obviously they have very advanced sensors and so forth, but I'm curious about the how of it...
For example, I remember several times in various episodes seeing somebody scanning the computer systems without ever touching the control panels. The Borg in particular seemed to be able to hack and read anything they wanted in the Enterprises 'puter by flashing a green light over the displays. (perhaps I'm mistaken about that...it's been years since I've seen Borg episodes of TNG, but i'm positive somebody has done scans of computer systems without touching it in Trek)
Do the 'puters have some kind of port that transmits in, say, infrared or something? This would explain how the tricorders are able to talk to the ship's computer, and possibly how those evil aliens can hack from afar.
Or maybe i'm just really drunk, and remembering things wrong. That's surely a possiblity too.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
IIRC, the main computer emits a weak subspace fields through which it communicates with all onboard computery things (PADDs, trices, etc.). It's in the TNGTM somewhere.
Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
Oh. I guess I need to get one of those manuals sometime. Hope they have them at the library. I'm too poor to afford one.
"weak subspace fields"
...well, that tells you all you need to know, doesn't it? Didn't know that even the computers in trek had to use subspace to function, instead of say, using something plausable.
how do they encrypt it? with quantum subspace interference counter-resonation ICE?
More seriously, how are we to know that "secure channel" is really secure? If we assume they are using some form of quantum encryption--which according to simon singh's The Code Book is mathematically unbreakable, if slightly implausible with today's tech--and I assume they are using it, since my understanding of trek subspace lends credibility to the belief that Q.E. would be perfect for it, then the Borg hacking the enterprise's computers brings about the question: Can the Borg beat quantum encryption on those pesky "weak subspace fields", or not?
If they can, this whole post of mine is stupid and moot. The Borg can do the impossible. Cool, it's sci-fi, why worry.
But if they can't, then they were cracking the core some other way. If they were, How?
sorry, I realize this is a horrible tangent. But these are the things I wonder about. Sadly, even more thoughts are bubbling up regarding Trek computers and encryption, but I will supress them so that somebody can deftly tell me the particular episode to watch or the book to read that has the answer to these questions.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: More seriously, how are we to know that "secure channel" is really secure?
As in real life, presumably never, at least not with absolute certainty.
Posted by thoughtcriminal84 (Member # 480) on :
of course you're correct. But if nothing else, I would like to find out what kind of encryption they're using... the only times it's ever mentioned to my knowledge is when Data does something to lock somebody out of the system.
In First Contact, Data used quantum fractal encryption (or something similar, haven't seen the movie since the theatre release) on the 'puter to lock out the borg, saying something along the lines that it was "impossible to defeat". Knowing what a pragmatist Mr. Data is, I doubt he would make such a bold statement without some proof...
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: I know that any episode scripted by Diane Duanne is as bad as her books, but, hey, people have debated endlessly about that guy's square rank pip.
Who and what square rank pip? Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Kosinski had a square pip on his collar in "Where No One has Gone Before" TNG. Interestingly, he also wore a gold starfleet uniform, but no communicator.
I think the implication was that he wasn't actually in Starfleet. However, they hadn't quite worked out the details about those types of things yet so it kind of got botched.
[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Aban Rune ]
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Actually, I believe Data said "almost impossible to break" or "incredibly unlikely" about the code in FC.
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
If I remember correctly Data said "It is highly unlikely that the Borg will be able to break it."
I watched FC just a few days ago. Don't ya think that the timing between the screen displaying the words "Encripted" and his typing in the code are way off?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
*resurrecting old topic*
quote:Kosinski had a square pip on his collar in "Where No One has Gone Before" TNG. Interestingly, he also wore a gold starfleet uniform, but no communicator.
Surprisingly he has a black and a gold rectangle.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Very strange. What's the significane of not wearing a communicator? Is he not in Starfleet?
I suppose the only thing it could reasonably be is an early attempt at a non-com uniform?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:I suppose the only thing it could reasonably be is an early attempt at a non-com uniform?
I don't think so. Kosinski didn't wear the Starfleet insignia and he was very disrespectful to superior officers (Riker and Argyle). I assume that he's a civilian and that Starfleet gave him the provisional rank of Lt. JG for the duration of his assignment.
The Maquis rank insignia used rectangular bars too.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Perhaps this was a foray into warrant officer grades? As demonstrated by his behavior towards the Commanders, Kosinski obviously isnt regular military, but everyone says he is an expert in his field. Perhaps SF granted him a warrant grade for his service to them.
Posted by The Defiant (Member # 818) on :
[BEGIN OFFSUBJECT POST]
quote:Originally posted by Sol System:
quote: More seriously, how are we to know that "secure channel" is really secure?
As in real life, presumably never, at least not with absolute certainty.
That was proved in Conspiracy. Keel wouldn't talk to Picard on Code 47 becuase of security reasons.
[/BEGIN OFFSUBJECT POST]
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
The "fuck"?
Actually, it HASN'T been proven, Defiant. Picard was the "security reason" Keel spoke of. Keel was afraid Picard might already have been corrupted. He wanted a face-to-face meeting so he could be certain Picard was still "one of us."
[ May 23, 2002, 14:21: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snay ]
Posted by The Defiant (Member # 818) on :
Well, I haven't seen Conspiracy in a couple years, so my memory might be wrong. Sorry.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Just kidding with the "fuck" part, dude
You know, it seems to me Starfleet should issue MP-5 sub-machine guns chambered with the 10mm round. Can the Borg deflect bullets? No as evidenced by First Contact.
...
I'm just SLIGHTLY scaring myself.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Would the Borg be able to activate their little forcefield whenever they want? If they can, then they can stop bullets. But that's if they were even expecting attacks from bullets. As shown in FC, I think that once attacked from bullets (rather actually hit by them) with their forcefield down, there's little or no chance of activating them.
Posted by The Defiant (Member # 818) on :
Why do you need bullets when you have the double-barrel rifle? Forget bullets, even a Borg can't deflect a hit upside the head with all-american steel, I tell you what.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Ah, the experienced opinion of Defiant ... LOL. Yes, but it helps if you can shoot them from a distance and stay out of range of those wicked mechanical probing arms of theirs.
You go club 'em with the rifle.
I'll stand back and empty a magazine or ten into them.
Posted by The Defiant (Member # 818) on :
Why just shoot, jut swing it back and forth and most of his arms WILL be off. The upside the head for the kill... Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Uh, okay. YOU do that. I'll shoot from a distance, thank you.
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
The borg always move like the mummy anyway, so it would be easy to get close and smack one. They never did try projectile weapons did they, perhaps the old killing technologies were the best. And Snay you have been very gun happy lately, you get mugged or something?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
To offer a nice nonlethal pinko alternative to firearms, may I suggest trapping irons? Not only will a Borg Drone most assuredly stumble into those, it will be far too clumsy to bend over and remove the things from its ankle.
In a cinch, a chain hung about waist high across the corridor will also stop a Borg invasion just fine. Just make sure to have the floors strewn liberally with pieces of chewing gum, each one containing one of those miniature Romulan assassination devices, so that when the Borg try to defeat the impenetrable defenses by transporting across them, they are dispersed to a fine mist.
Oh, well. At least the Borg can negotiate stairs...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Hunter (Member # 611) on :
Concering Snay's suggestion that the crew of the Enterprise used projectile weapons aginst the Borg, if the Borg have trouble adapting aginst them how come nobody tried to use the TR-116? How come it reamins a failed prototype? (besides the obvious reason that the TR-116 wouldn't be invented for two years)
Oh and Timo the borg can bend over, one must have to be able to bend over otherwise how could one reach under the door and grab that ensign?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
No, no mugging. Just want a gun. Or two. Or fifty.
Posted by The Defiant (Member # 818) on :
perfect solution:
1. Heat can of Cajun Baked Beans. 2. Add 45 onions. 3. Eat the beans. 4. Find Borg onslaught. 5. Bend over and let her rip! (that'll kill anything)
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Wear a Windows ME disc on you. They wouldn't want to touch you with a ten ft. cybernetic arm.
[ May 25, 2002, 00:52: Message edited by: Harry ]
Posted by koy'peled Oy'tio (Member # 796) on :
Assuming that Starfleet has an IQ of at least room temperature they would make Latin a required language to speak at the academy, unless of course the federation itself is less intelligent then a fruit fly. Although I could imagine a fruit fly taking over the Federation, they were after all infiltrated by a parasite...
[ May 28, 2002, 08:53: Message edited by: koy'peled Oy'tio ]
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Um... right. And would you care to explain WHY Starfleet Academy should be required to waste time teaching Andorians a language that no one's spoken on OUR planet for a couple millenia?
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
When fruit flies are fruitfully, do they multiply?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Not to try and make some crazy sense from this crazy argument, but I imagine the Borg were killed by Picard because they weren't expecting to be hit with Tommy Guns. If everyone had been using them, they'd have deflected them as easily as phasers.
I think it's not that the Borg come automatically equipped to deflect most weapons, but that they send a few in to see what weapons the enemy are using, and then adapt the rest of the drones to that. As Picard only used the machine gun once, we never saw if the other Borg adapted to it.
And the Borg have shown the ability to stop physical attacks, as far back as "The Best of Both Worlds" when both Worf and Riker had a go.
And I'm agreeing (shockingly) with Omega here. Why on Earth would Starfleet want it's students to know Latin?
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
Why would the Borg know Latin? They probably scanned Picard's mind ... he's the kind of guy who would learn Latin on a rainy day.
I don't think Liam could learn Latin on a rainy day.
Posted by The Ulcer Mongoose (Member # 239) on :
quote: Assuming that Starfleet has an IQ of at least room temperature they would make Latin a required language to speak at the academy, unless of course the federation itself is less intelligent then a fruit fly(chaged from fruitfully). Although I could imagine a fruit fly(chaged from fruitfully) taking over the Federation, they were after all infiltrated by a parasite...(stupid word program,(not to metion me,(i wounder how long i could do this for,(i dont know but it seems pretty dumb to me,(shut up both of you!!!(OK!)(OK!)))))
What. The. "fuck".
[ May 27, 2002, 20:32: Message edited by: The Ulcer Mongoose ]
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
I have to agree with UM here. Some people need to just smack themselves around and spare us the trouble.
Of course, its possible Starfleet wants everyone to know Latin so they can recognize it when the Romans From Outer Space return and conquor the Federation.
The fuck?!
The fuck!?
The fucking fucker fuck fuckest! Posted by The Ulcer Mongoose (Member # 239) on :
But why? Where did this come from?
Random Paragraph with the word "Starfleet" randomly inserted in:
"With the rights to broadcast both the Starfleet and the Triple Crown races, Starfleet aired the Preakness shortly after Starfleet, and then began its telecast of the Starfleet game at 6:30 p.m."
This is what that silly lad wrote:
"Assuming that Starfleet has an IQ of at least room temperature they would make Latin a required language to speak at the academy, unless of course the federation itself is less intelligent then a fruit fly(chaged from fruitfully). Although I could imagine a fruit fly(chaged from fruitfully) taking over the Federation, they were after all infiltrated by a parasite...(stupid word program,(not to metion me,(i wounder how long i could do this for,(i dont know but it seems pretty dumb to me,(shut up both of you!!!(OK!)(OK!)))))"
Coherency level == same.
Why latin? Why would that be an acceptable defence against the Borg? What's the shit about fruit flies?
This makes life extraordinarily less worthwile, and I've never wanted to eat rat poison quite so much.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Well that was an interesting paragraph... Anyway, I would think that Latin would be easy for the Borg to decipher since the Collective has assimilated information onboard Federation starships. Even the Navajo language would be in the Collective's database by now, unlike back during WW2. And that fruitfly thing is strange. I don't even know where to start on that.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
What really gets me is that the comment has been edited to look like a LISP program.
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Well, all he need to do is send Koy'canspellname to go type his worthless ramblings into the Borg memory. I am curious whether or not if Koy'whoeveryouare is like some drunk who happened to stumble upon Flare...
Koy'Igiveup, what does Latin have to do with anything? Latin is just as easy to learn as any Earth lanuage. Now if you are saying that Enlgish could wipe out the Borg, then... you will have to lay off the pipe alittle.
[ May 28, 2002, 08:52: Message edited by: Matrix ]
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
quote:"...like some drunk who happened to stumble upon Flare..."
His jibberish does, rather surprisingly, make a lot of sense when one is intoxicated. Really.
Posted by koy'peled Oy'tio (Member # 796) on :
latin is a dead language therefore never chages therefore stays the same, hence a langautic tool, hence may come in hady during a crisis, perhapes during a UT malfunction ect.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
See, the thing about dead languages, their defining characteristic, is that they're dead.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
To be perfectly fair, Latin isn't dead in the same way, that, oh, the Visigoth or Beothuk languages are dead. I can see it sticking around for the forseeable future on the linguistic sidelines, if only for nomenclature purposes in the natural sciences.
Posted by koy'peled Oy'tio (Member # 796) on :
dead latin = never will change
As oppose to english for intance which changes everyday.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
for example, today's change was the coining of the word 'intance'
Posted by The Defiant (Member # 818) on :
Koy'please Banme, please learn how to master English before you say something about a language you clearly don't understand.
You said in a different topic about feeling sorry for me, well look who's talking.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I love this kind of struggle thing that's going on for that second lowest spot on the totem pole.
Spelling aside, he's correct. It's doubtful that Latin will ever change. It's pretty much just used for scientific classifications and the odd, long winded sermon.
It also makes appearances in shows such as the West Wing...
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
AHA! Shows how much YOU know!! Seems your language here is only MOOOSTLY dead! There's a big difference between "mostly dead" & "all dead." "MOSTly dead" means "slightly ALIVE!"
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
ROTFLMBO!!!
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Laughing your breasts of?
Posted by The Defiant (Member # 818) on :
That's sick.
NIROTGLMDATOV
Ya know HArry, that pretty dern funny.
[ May 30, 2002, 16:19: Message edited by: The Defiant ]
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Butt. Laughing my butt off. As opposed to ass, which would just be vulgar.
Posted by koy'peled Oy'tio (Member # 796) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Defiant: Koy'please Banme, please learn how to master English before you say something about a language you clearly don't understand.
You said in a different topic about feeling sorry for me, well look who's talking.
May i point out that this post has been somewhat duplicated in another thread...
quote: Originally Posted in Verg by Defiant
Koy'please Banhim, I want to know what a Verg is. That is what the subject is. Tell me why you're talking about Borg and V'ger when the subject is Verg.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Koy'please Banhim, from a different topic:
... You should feel sorry for The Defiant more... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah, right.
And although opposed to general belief, mastering any language is nearly impossible because language is always changing from day to day. However compared to some people *Coughs and under breath say’s 'The Defiant'* I have mastered English.
As I had posted before your version of my altered name is incredibly lame (wow that rhymes) However I have found a few that you could take into consideration and decide for yourself if yours is lame.
Tater'peled Wit'finger'nails Soy'Sauce Meal On'ladle Oidon'tBel Ieve'it CoyPeeledPotato Coicarp'calledOtto
Posted by koy'peled Oy'tio (Member # 796) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: I love this kind of struggle thing that's going on for that second lowest spot on the totem pole.
Spelling aside, he's correct. It's doubtful that Latin will ever change. It's pretty much just used for scientific classifications and the odd, long-winded sermon.
It also makes appearances in shows such as the West Wing...
Struggle? What struggle? There is no competition! Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
Yes, Defiant, when did you think it was allright for a newbie like you to make fun of other board members (even if it is another Newbie).. i would think you need all the allies you can get, even if one is a newbie.
Oh, like i care.. i love to watch Newbie Fights its right up there with cockfighting and midget bowling on my list of favorite sports
oh, and ass is vulgar now? dont read my lol line...
Posted by koy'peled Oy'tio (Member # 796) on :
see the difference...im teasing his out right insulting.
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