After the start of this discussion in another thread I thought I might start a thread about it.
It is in reguards to there SEEMING to be no more room left in the Trek universe to Explore (i.e. in the 24th century). I think this is... wrong. It might feel like we're bottled in, prollay with DS9 being so concentrated on the one place, and Voyager jumping 70,000 lightyears, but it seeming to be just a few parsecs away from Federation space.
I had a theory about TNG a while back, mainly in where it is in reguards to the Federation throughout it's seven seasons. I think the Enterprise mission was to go out there... RIGHT out there... and it started off at Farpoint station. It's mission was to explore way out into unexplored space - probably more like Lisa Cusak's ship from "The Sound of Her Voice".
The Enterprise-D started to do this in Season 1. Throughout season 1 it was on it's way out of known space. The events of Conspiracy changed this however, and brought the Enterprise back to Earth. The events in "The Neutral Zone" happened, luckily when the Enterprise was closer to home and the Romulan Neutral Zone.
Season 2 starts, I think in the journey out of Federation space started again. But the Yamato event in 'Contagion' brought the Enterprise closer to home again. Out again. Then Q Who? would have delayed the Enterprise from going out further for a while. A complete report and repair would have occured after those events. This makes sense as the E seemed to be around more local events: Up the Long Ladder I don't think that Mariposa would have gone too far from Earth, way back when. Manhunt Lwaxana and Federation business. The Emissary Kehyler SP? and Klingon/Fed business. Peak Performance Fed business/training of the crew/old ship/Ferengi.
From here on, I think the Enterprise ended up being more a 'local ship' - i.e. remaining either in Federation space or going just beyond its borders. Jouret IV in "The Best of Bost Worlds, Part I" might have been the extent of the E-D's travels?
[ April 04, 2002, 00:44: Message edited by: AndrewR ]
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I'm not really sure if the E-D ever had a chance to begin its mission to "trans-Denebian" space. During the first season, there were several instances before "Conspiracy" where it was clear the ship was sailing close to Earth, and meeting the usual suspects. "Heart of Glory" treated us to Klingons and the Neutral Zone (apparently the Romulan one); "Angel One" had the ship summoned to this Zone as well. And "The Battle", "Arsenal of Freedom" and "Datalore" all concentrated on the E-D going where other starships had gone before. Actual first contacts during the season generally took place by accident, during the course of a mission dealing with known planets and societies.
It may be that Starfleet got cold feet after learning about the existence of Q, and immediately recalled Picard. While Picard may have taken the incident in stride, the admirals may actually have thought it through - presumably it was the decision to send the E-D beyond Deneb that made Q decide that enough was enough and the humans had to be stopped. A strategic withdrawal would make great sense there.
Of course, it could also be that the "Conspiracy" aliens, in control of Starfleet HQ already, were behind the decision to recall the E-D. Perhaps they lived in the direction of the projected exploration journey, and didn't want Picard to discover them?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
However, given the seeming detour in their mission of long term, deep space exploration, the writers did do a decent job of getting those kinds of assignments on the roster every now and again. In "Transfigurations", they were exploring a previously unexplored pocket of space, that was apparently quite large. Same with "Cause and Effect".
I think what might have happened is that the area of their assignment may have changed. perhaps instead of going straight out into deep space, they were assigned some of the niggling little sectors "above" or "below" (three-dimensionally speaking) the central plane of the galaxy.
Posted by Malnurtured Snayer (Member # 411) on :
Well, in "Arsenal of Freedom", it's important to note they weren't going anywhere in particular, they were just trying to figure out what happened to the USS Drake. It wasn't a "go look at this planet we already explored" mission so much as a "go to this sector and figure out where the hell Captain Rice went." Even if the Drake did figure out what happened on the planet, the Enterprise was the ship that survived to make the report.
Posted by koy'peled Oy'tio (Member # 796) on :
the fact is the federation is still charting space they arent neccesarily exploring it in detail, i'm not sure where i heard this but somewhere between 10 and 15 percent of the galaxy has been charted only 2 percent has been explored and with the arrival of voyager i think that that persentage has chaged a little.
Posted by Malnurtured Snayer (Member # 411) on :
Why? Voyager is one ship. They might've charted a fifth of a tenth of a thousandth of a percent, and explored maybe 1% of that ...
The Federation has hundreds if not thousands of starships exploring the galaxy, and we're also talking about the knowledge they've gotten from the Vulcans, and Klingons, and other allies about the parts of the galaxy they've explored ...
Methinks you place too much faith in Voyaick.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, consider that Voyager cut a huge swath through the Delta Quadrant during those seven years. I agree, they're only one ship and didn't EXPLORE most of the territory at all.
However, one of their primary goals along the way was to obtain maps and information about the space that they were going through. They certainly must have received detailed information from native races who have been exploring for a while themselves.
I'd be willing to bet that Voyager itself added at least a couple of percentage points to the portion of the galaxy that's been charted. (Not explored.)
Posted by Malnurtured Snayer (Member # 411) on :
Uh, I don't know about percentage points. Look at how much info the Cardassians, Klingons, Vulcans, humans, Andorians, etc. had pooled ... 12/15%, and thats with much greater resources then one tiny little Voyager.
I doubt they added anywhere near a single percentage point. Now, that's certainly not saying they didn't get a lot of info, just that the galaxy is really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really
really really
BIG!
[ April 04, 2002, 13:09: Message edited by: Malnurtured Snayer ]
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
What I kept wondering was how they came to have enough stellar information to say "we're on the other side of the Galaxy" once the Caretaker had dumped them there. . .
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Cepheid variables? X-ray sources? Catalogued subspace phenomena? Long-range automated probes, like the one that scouted the Idran system in the Gamma Quadrant?
--Jonah
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
One big clue, I suspect, would be that the galactic core was visible at more or less the same difference as before, but none of the local stars, or even the distant stars, were the same.
Posted by The Apocalypse (Member # 633) on :
They might find a fluidic rift to fluidic space, and they find another exit to another galaxy, like voyager, except they develop a temporary federation base in fluidic space, encounter species 8472, get into a 10 episode battle, then finally defeat them with the help of the borg, the borg go away. Anyways, they encounter another species, and become friends with them.
Vulcans warn the humans to end plans to build a base in fluidic space, because the rifts can close. They ignore the warning and reserach the rifts trying to figure out how to control them, the rift to the alpha quadrant closes, the temp base is shocked, they send fleets to the other rifts (to delta, beta,and gamme quadrant) only yo find them closed too. Species 8472 appear again, stating that they are the ones who have opened the rifts, and they can reopen them again. They attack and destroy the base, they destroy 60% of the ships created, only 13 sovereign, 20 akira,3 intrepid,8 galaxy,4 nebula, and 2 steamrunner class ships survive. They have deployed several sensor arrays to make sure they would not be running into 8472 again.
I don't know, I'm bored and typed up basically a few episodes in short summary, but I suck at writing, so...
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Regarding the amount of the galaxy explored, as I stated in a post in the Enterpirse forum, as there are on the order of 100 to 400 billion stars in our galaxy, even assuming the low figure of 100 billion, even if you had 10,000 starships each visiting one star every 4 days, that would be a total or 912,500 stars per year, and it would still take 109,589 years to visit them all (and around 440,000 years if it's the upper figure)!
The galaxy is plenty big for Star Trek to explore for eons to come before running out of room.
[ April 05, 2002, 23:18: Message edited by: MrNeutron ]
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
What I kept wondering was how they came to have enough stellar information to say "we're on the other side of the Galaxy" once the Caretaker had dumped them there. . .
Pulsars? Didn't Archer use a pulsar grid as a reference to help people find Earth? Or was that the Voyager spaceprobes?
Posted by Malnurtured Snayer (Member # 411) on :
Long range probes sent from the Federation. Or does anyone else remember Sisko and Dax discovering the identity of the closest star after their first trip into the Gamma Quadrant? Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
From "Emissary"...
132 INT. RUNABOUT (OPTICAL)
SISKO Can you get a fix on our coordinates... ?
DAX (checking) There's a star just under five light years away... no M class planets... Computer, identify closest star system...
COMPUTER VOICE Idran... a ternary system consisting of a central supergiant and twin O- type companions...
SISKO (reacts) Idran... that can't be right...
DAX Computer, basis of identification...
COMPUTER VOICE Identification of Idran is based on the hydrogen-alpha spectral analysis conducted in the twenty-second century by the Quadros-One probe of the Gamma Quadrant.
[ April 06, 2002, 12:55: Message edited by: TSN ]
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
It's not unreasonable to assume that Starfleet knows the type and composition of many stars in our galaxy without having visited them all. I can see 23rd and 24th century Hubble telescopes sent up above the galactic plane for decades taking snapshots of the entire visible galaxy and recording spectral class information and whatnot. So, they might know of a majority of stars in the galaxy without having gotten near them.
As to figuring out where you are, if you can detect pulsars, they're one of the easiest ways to triangulate your position. Every pulsar detected to date has a unique pulse rate, and if you can detect enough familiar ones you can triangulate your position. In fact, this method is how the position of our sun is indicated on the plaque of Pioneer 10. Too bad Klah blew it up...
[ April 06, 2002, 20:13: Message edited by: MrNeutron ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Ignore that... I should have read the second page ;o)
[ April 07, 2002, 04:57: Message edited by: AndrewR ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
22nd century... hmmm How long would a probe take to get to Idran in the 22nd century? I wonder if it was an Earth project or an early Federation project.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
*wishes to point out that the Quadros-2 probe could have taken decades or a century to chart towards the Gamma terminus, while transmitting back. So its a 22nd century probe, but the Idran data could have just been received, and also that the probe might not have gotten close to Idran at all, but simply photographed it from a range that wasnt possible from within the Federation*
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Also, it needn't necessarily be either an Earth probe or a Federation probe. For all we know, it could have been sent out in the very early twenty-second century by the Vulcans, or some other race that was out in space before humans.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Or the probe could have been sent out in the sixteenth century by the Vulcans or the possible other space dwellers. It would merely be the *measurements* that dated back to the 22nd century.
OTOH, 100-200 years spent traveling at warp 7 should suffice for getting a probe to Gamma. Building such a device in, say, 2150 could have been possible for humans already. After all, they did build "Friendship One"... Perhaps fast unmanned probes are easier to build than fast manned ships?
Also, pay attention to the wording. "Analysis conducted by the Quadros-One probe of the Gamma quadrant". The "conducted by" part makes it sound as if the Q-1 probe was a physical device launched into space and not a project conducted at an undisclosed location: if it were a project, one would probably say "Analysis conducted under/as part of the Q-1 probe". But it also says "the probe of the Gamma quadrant". So if the probe is a device and not a project, and it is "of" the Gamma quadrant... Then perhaps it was launched by a Gamma quadrant race? The Feds could simply have intercepted it and co-opted its research.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I'm not sure that that particular interpretation of their grammar means anything. After all, studies are conducted by NASA. If the "Quadros-1 Probe" was a project, it might be being used to refer to the group who did the work.
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