Flare Sci-Fi Forums: "Ashes to Ashes" (spoilers)

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Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

The actress who played Ballard was very good, enough that she made the Voyager cast look rather pathetic in some places. It's too bad she won't be around more.

The ending was depressing and pathetic. I see no reason why Ballard decided to return to the species-of-the-week-who's-name-ends-with-i, considering that she had only been in that civilisation for a couple years, but spent the rest of her life in the UFP/Voyager. The parts where she begins speaking the ends-in-i-species language seemed absurd...she probably would have noticed, and how come the universal translator didn't pick it up? Either way, there was no logical explanation for it, unless it's more of Trek-style genetic determinism, culture=species. Indeed, when Seven of Nine wanted to return to the Borg in the eps after "Scorpion," Janeway and co. wouldn't allow it. The only difference between the two is that <sarcasm><rant>Seven was a pure-blooded human, not a mongrel like Ballard, and genetics are everything, so the former is returned to her true home, while the latter is thrown back to the wolves!</sarcasm></rant>

I'm going to beat up the next person to say that Voyager deals with "philosophical issues."

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Frank's Home Page
"This is a brand new song...we haven't recorded it yet, but we're going to now." - John Flansburgh

[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited March 01, 2000).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

A decent ep. Didn't have some huge moral. Just a character piece. Kim finally got a half way decent episode. Although it would have been nice if we'd actually seen this ensign before. At least we got to see those borg kids again.

Oh, and as for that trek racism essay, I hope you don't seriously believe that. It's so full of holes it's almost funny.

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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Why, what's wrong with it?

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Frank's Home Page
"This is a brand new song...we haven't recorded it yet, but we're going to now." - John Flansburgh

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, for one thing, the author seems to think that any reference to a culture's ideals is racism. When Sisko said to respect Nog's Ferengi ideals, he meant to rspect Nog's ideals which h has because they are the ideals held by the vast majority of Ferengi. And when Picard wanted Riker to respect Worf's Klingon ideals, it was because Picard knew that Worf had those ideals. They never said "all Ferengi are money-hungry little trolls" or "all Klingons are bloodthristy savages who want to be killed when they stub their toes". The references were to two specific characters, Nog and Worf. Sisko and Picard knew that those two happened to hold true to the ideals they were raised with, the ideals held by most Ferengi and Klingons, respectively. There's a huge difference.

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Jackson: "Basically, he was the original Satan."
O'Neill: "Well, isn't that special?"
-Stargate SG-1: "Serpent's Song"

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

The point he's trying to make is that Trek treats species and culture as the same thing, which is the problem he addresses in those examples.

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Frank's Home Page
"This is a brand new song...we haven't recorded it yet, but we're going to now." - John Flansburgh

Posted by Fructose (Member # 309) on :

Well, for one, there's a difference between rasism and stereotyping. Saying "black people are violent" or "all black people can play basketball" is a stereotype. Not hiring someone because they are black or giving all black people basketball scholarships is racism. They are both bad, but they are different things. Stereotyping is the belief, racism is the action.

Also, Scientists have mixed some species here on earth to make a couple new species. I know thay mixed a cantaloupe and honeydew to make a honey-loupe. It was pretty good too.

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

And I thought that Stadi was comming back to life...mybad! It was a good episode though, but I could have sworn I saw that ensign before, and I don't mean onboard DS9 or the Enterprise-E. What show did I see her in???

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We did it on the floor,
We did it by the door,
We did it all night,
We did it under a light,
So how about for tonight we do it some more...

Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :

In defence of the genome=culture implication in this specific case:

It would only be in the best interest of the vaguely-named species to create such an assimilation process that it not only reanimates the dead body and transforms it into one of theirs, but also creates a strong craving of some sort for the culture of the species. After all, the "homesickness" of the former corpses towards their origins, explicitly displayed in this episode, would probably be common among all ex-corpses and would need to be actively fought by the species.

How could biolgy create such a craving? It wouldn't be impossible to make the brains have a "subroutine" that associates the sight of a certain type of face or hearing of a certain type of sound with pleasure. Such "subroutines" already exist naturally in our brains, across cultural borders (fear reaction to smell of smoke, or craving for fried food - both are good survival features).

Timo Saloniemi

Posted by Dane Simri (Member # 272) on :

When I look at the way that all human culture is being amalgamated into one big superficial meaningless self-focused amorphous mass of sticky-sweet pseudo-culture, I have no problem with the fact that Trek portrays species and culture as being analagous. I have a feeling that by the time we travel into the stars (if things don't come to an end before then) that there will be one planetary human culture, with one set of norms and standards. This is not adding order to the system, but rather the logical outcome of the descent into chaos; everything is so mixed together and diluted that it all looks, smells and tastes the same.

I offer the world-wide popularity of the Backstreet Boys and so-called "professional wrestling" as evidence.

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Dane

"Mathematicians have long held that a million monkeys banging on a million keyboards would eventually reproduce the collected wisdom of the human race. Now, thanks to the internet, we know this is not true." -- Robert Silensky

Posted by Dane Simri (Member # 272) on :

Wow. I just read the above-referenced article and I don't know whether to laugh or cry. What pseudo-intellectual fluff! This guy has GOT to be kidding.

Warning: Articles like the one referenced in the first post of this thread are the intellectual equivalent of cotton candy. They may look full and appealing and even taste sweet, but in truth they offer very little (and what they do offer is of dubious nutritive value). Furthermore, they're sticky; once you've tried a little, it's hard to get rid of the intellectual residue so you can fill your mind with things of greater value.

*Falls and sprains his ankle trying to get down from his high horse*

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Dane

[This message has been edited by Dane Simri (edited March 02, 2000).]

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

No kidding.

If the author had been really doing his research, he'd have noticed that Trek can show a considerable variation in cultural thought within cultures. Worf is not Alexander is not B'Elanna is not Duras, despite what the author believes.

And Nog is not Rom is not the Nagus is CERTAINLY not Ishka.

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Timo: Even if you find a reason for it, the episode is still saying the same thing. (Besides, if the i-species could do that, why do they need dead bodies?)

Dane: I think you'll find that only a small percentage of the world's population likes the Backstreet Boys, WWF, etc. People will always disagree about things, and the idea of a species-based culture is absurd.

First of Two: That's still not addressing his point, that Trek treats culture and species to be the same thing. For example, how come there weren't any previous Ishkas who formed their own cultures? (BTW, on an unrelated note, take a look at what he has to say about creation/evolution).

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Frank's Home Page
"This is a brand new song...we haven't recorded it yet, but we're going to now." - John Flansburgh

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

Kobali Frank.

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"The Borg wouldn't know fun if they assimilated an amusement park" - Torres
Federation Starship Datalink - On that annoying Tripod server.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

(I call it an "i-species" because most of Voyager's species-of-the-week tend to end with the letter i. Pretty boring practice.

)

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Frank's Home Page
"This is a brand new song...we haven't recorded it yet, but we're going to now." - John Flansburgh

Posted by Dane Simri (Member # 272) on :

Actually, Frank, after having lived on every continent except Australia and Antarctica (note not "visited" but "lived") I've found that we are well on our way to world-wide cultural amalgamation. Some more evidence:

- Children wearing "WWF" t-shirts in Portugal.
- A Russian lounge band singing Tina Turner and Elton John in a hotel bar in Kuwait City.
- A generation of German males who dress like the Marlboro man.
- Pizza Hut, Kentucky Fried Chicken, and Burger King in St. Petersburg, Russia.
- The unexplainable fascination of kids in Seoul, Korea, with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.
- The bankruptcy of radio stations that didn't play mostly American/Western European music in Rio de Janeiro.
- The stagnation in the once-thriving Italian and Spanish film industries as a result of the rise in popularity of American films.
- The inclusion of words like "Dilbert-ism" and "da bomb" into coloquial German and Portuguese.
- McDonalds EVERYWHERE.

I could go on, but I think you get the point. Please note that I'm not saying that AMERICAN culture is assimilating the other cultures of the world. Rather that, as national boundaries become "culturally porous," all our cultures are seeping into one another and becoming diluted. This is simply the sociological equivalent of the natural law of diffusion.

Please also note that I'm not making a judgement on the "rightness or wrongness" of cultural diffusion. I'm merely stating that it's a sociological trend well supported by the facts.

Now, there are certainly a few parts of the world that are less affected than others. Of those that I've visited, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, China, and (to a much lesser extent) France come to mind. My opinion is that it is only a matter of time before they succumb to this phenomenon that we're discussing. With the rising worldwide technological standard, their borders are or will soon be just as culturally porous as everyone else's.

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Dane

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

We are the United States. Resistance is futile. :-)

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"Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
-They Might Be Giants, "Your Racist Friend"

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Tim is right...those are all trends that originated in the US. But, are you saying that everyone likes the WWF and everyone likes McDonalds and everyone likes Dilbert, etc.? Try taking a world-wide survey and see what it's really like.

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Frank's Home Page
"This is a brand new song...we haven't recorded it yet, but we're going to now." - John Flansburgh

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

I read the article. Drival!
The guy is angry. Perhaps his children have been treated poorly, as mixed race kids often are.

I can only think of two instances where trek has shown two races from the same planet. There are black Vulcans, and the planet in 'Let This be Your Last Battlefield." There may be more, that were more subtle.

Only Earth is portrayed as being so diverse. Feringi, Klingons, Cardssians and Bajorans all seem to be of one race.

Babylon-5 was the same way. I remember a speach by Londo, where he was talking about how diverse Earth was compared to other planets.

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

With Klingons we've seen light tan colored and dark brown races of Klingons.

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"The Borg wouldn't know fun if they assimilated an amusement park" - Torres
Federation Starship Datalink - On that annoying Tripod server.

Posted by Alshrim Dax (Member # 258) on :

I didn't mind this ep ... your right ... this actress was good .. I liked her performance ..

The one thing that bothered me tho'..

When she was working on the Warp Drive for B'Elanna and she was working out the equation out loud in her new language, on such a culturally deverse environment such as the Federation, why did they react so strangly????!!!! i didn't get the racism - the ... race out of place syndrom there ??? How many Half-Klingons do you see on VOyager??? 1 ??

people look at Torres strangely at first, cuz she was always pulling a tantrum not cuz she was racially different .. they just accepted her Klingon behavior as default for someone of her race. It wasn't wierd!

Why should it have been any different. You'd figure with a crew who've encountered so many new and different races in their travels that they would not have been phased a bit at the way she fixed the problem .. in fact, I would have been intrigued; not miffed by how different she was!

I didn't understand that .. it seemed to go against everything Trek ..

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-There can be only Nine !! ..mmm.. maybe 10 !!

- Alshrim Dax
The Other Dax:

[This message has been edited by Alshrim Dax (edited March 03, 2000).]

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

"they just accepted her Klingon behavior as default for someone of her race."

See, this is what the above article is talking about...

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Frank's Home Page
"This is a brand new song...we haven't recorded it yet, but we're going to now." - John Flansburgh

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Klingons, almost universally, act aggressive and short-tempered. It's just a fact. Humans, especially ones in Starfleet, tend to think they're better than other races. Another fact. These aren't cultural stereotypes. They happen to be largely true. If a Klingon acts aggressive, we know it's because they're Klingon. If they don't act aggressive, that's okay, too. There's no racism involved.

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"Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding."
-They Might Be Giants, "Your Racist Friend"

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

That's the point, though...externally, that's completely unrealistic.

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Frank's Home Page
"He's Satan. And not the good kind. I hate him. If there is a god, I hope Jebus has him fry in hell." - DT, in reference to me

Posted by Dane Simri (Member # 272) on :

Frank: "But, are you saying that everyone likes the WWF and everyone likes McDonalds and everyone likes Dilbert, etc.?"

YES, this is exactly what I'm saying, Frank. Every single member of the human race likes these things. Every person living today is a Big-Mac-eating, Dilbert-quoting, WWF-watching maniac.

Of course that's not what I'm saying. Quit being an idiot. If you want to know what I'm saying, read what I wrote.

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Dane

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, then, I guess we know are significant differences between individuals. But you wouldn't know that from watching Trek.

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Frank's Home Page
"He's Satan. And not the good kind. I hate him. If there is a god, I hope Jebus has him fry in hell." - DT, in reference to me

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Oh, yeah. Dukat and Garak act exactly alike. Duras and Worf, too. Oh, Martok and Gowron. Sybok and Tuvok. Rom and Quark. The list of species where all members are exactly the same is endless!

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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Dukat and Garak are both stereotypically treacherous. Duras, Worf, Martok, and Gowron are stereotypically aggressive. Sybok and Rom were considered anomolies! See?

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Frank's Home Page
"He's Satan. And not the good kind. I hate him. If there is a god, I hope Jebus has him fry in hell." - DT, in reference to me

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I for one am sick of all this human stereotyping that goes on. Why, not a single human being is allowed to breath liquid nitrogen! And this isn't limited to any single program, either. It's across the board, people. Clear racism on the behalf of a vast cultural conspiricy!

To rectify this, I plan to create a show where all humans breath liquid nitrogen, and some have thirteen extra fingers, and one of them speaks backwards. I've actually pitched this in Hollywood once before, and it went over pretty well. Until halfway through filming the pilot, when I realized that all of the actors were dead and two of them had shattered into unrecognizable bits. But that's just because I couldn't find any non-oxygencentric actors! I'll try again. Uh, anyone care to audition?

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"You are stupid and evil and do not know you are stupid and evil."
--
Gene Ray, Cubic

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Sometimes I wish the planet would be scoured in cleansing fire. Other times I wish Sol would burn to a charred corpse while being crushed by a giant metal bird.

Your point is invalid. The cultures of intelligent species are not determined by the same factors that require them to breathe and so on.

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Frank's Home Page
"He's Satan. And not the good kind. I hate him. If there is a god, I hope Jebus has him fry in hell." - DT, in reference to me

Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :

There were black Bajorans on DS9, just look very closely at the first few seasons of the series. As for why the people in Engineer looked strangely at Ballard, maybe it felt akward seeing someone who was supposedly dead for a few years.

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We did it on the floor,
We did it by the door,
We did it all night,
We did it under a light,
So how about for tonight we do it some more...

Posted by Fructose (Member # 309) on :

And she also talked in a weird language. And as for all all klingons being agressive and cardiassians being treacherous, did you ever thing that maybe it's a part of their physiology. Certain chemicals in our brain make us agressive so maybe all klingons produce more of that chemical. And if we only see a handful of a certain type of alien, what are the chances that they don't fall in what is considered the norm for that society? After all, most people are 'normal.' Otherwise it wouldn't be normal. If you want to see the diversity in a civilization, you have to look at a lot more than 5 or 10. You need to look at millions or even billions. You would never see something like that on the show. Your 'facts' are based on such a small portion of what could really be there. Suppose all you could see of earth was the Hawiian Islands. You would think the whole earth is like that. Obviously that's not true.

Oh, and I do know some people that are 'mixed-raced' that do struggle with their different heritages.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

How could all Klingons possibly reach a state where they're all naturally agressive? Agressive members of a species are more likely to kill each other before the species evolves into becoming intelligence. The whole notion is Trek-style pseudo-science, and that's very generous usage of the word "science."

If we're only seeing limited, specialised examples, then why do we hear about "Klingon culture" or "Ferengi culture"?

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Frank's Home Page
"He's Satan. And not the good kind. I hate him. If there is a god, I hope Jebus has him fry in hell." - DT, in reference to me

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

One thing I didn't get about this episode was:

If Harry was crazy about Ballard, why did he engage Libby?

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"Yes. I have seventeen brains! And eleven legs. And a pecan."
-Frank Gerratana, March 3, 2000

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Because Voyager is a badly-written show with poor continuity? But I'm not saying anything I haven't said before.

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Frank's Home Page
"He's Satan. And not the good kind. I hate him. If there is a god, I hope Jebus has him fry in hell." - DT, in reference to me

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

*thwaps Frank around with a large trout for a while*

I think perhaps we should import one of the TrekBBS's rules into Flare:

No Voyager bashing in the Voyager forum

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"Yes. I have seventeen brains! And eleven legs. And a pecan."
-Frank Gerratana, March 3, 2000

Posted by Fructose (Member # 309) on :

Hey let me borrow that trout for a while. Frank, have you ever heard of the concept of 'suspension of belief?'

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It doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing as long as you look good doing it.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Yes, but Voyager suspends our disbelief from dental floss hung between two 20-mile-high towers. If that makes any sense.

There's only so much nonsense I can stand.

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Frank's Home Page
"He's Satan. And not the good kind. I hate him. If there is a god, I hope Jebus has him fry in hell." - DT, in reference to me

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

And yet you continue to share it with the rest of us. Defensive adaptation?

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"You are stupid and evil and do not know you are stupid and evil."
--
Gene Ray, Cubic

[This message has been edited by Sol System (edited March 05, 2000).]

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, in the case of episodes like "Fair Haven," I'm more than happy to just stop watching.

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Frank's Home Page
"He's Satan. And not the good kind. I hate him. If there is a god, I hope Jebus has him fry in hell." - DT, in reference to me

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Meanwhile, I'm very thankful for David Sluss's weekly sanity-maintenance writings.

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Frank's Home Page
"He's Satan. And not the good kind. I hate him. If there is a god, I hope Jebus has him fry in hell." - DT, in reference to me

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

And again, if your sanity is linked to such things, I cannot possibly stress how much you need to go outside and talk a walk now and then.

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"You are stupid and evil and do not know you are stupid and evil."
--
Gene Ray, Cubic

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Oh, shush.

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Frank's Home Page
"He's Satan. And not the good kind. I hate him. If there is a god, I hope Jebus has him fry in hell." - DT, in reference to me

Posted by Fructose (Member # 309) on :

Face it Frank, if you take a fine toothed comb to any tv show, movie, book, or whatever, you'll find a bunch of mistakes. Every movie I see I can think of dozens of things that aren't realistic. But they don't make stuff like this for realism. If you want that, watch Cops or any show on The Learning Channel. I watch Voyager for entertainment and I don't worry about things like that. I thought of half of the things in the review you linked to before I read it. But I don't care. If it bothers you so much, why do you watch it?

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It doesn't matter if you don't know what you're doing as long as you look good doing it.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

There's a ratio of the number of mistakes to the amount of good storytelling a series can have before people start to notice. DS9 had plenty of problems, but it also had plenty of great episodes and storylines. Voyager, IMO, lacks the latter.

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Frank's Home Page
"He's Satan. And not the good kind. I hate him. If there is a god, I hope Jebus has him fry in hell." - DT, in reference to me

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Well, honestly, it is kind of hard to be entertained by a show when you're constantly noticing blatant errors like some of those mentioned.

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Homer: "I can see what's happening. They did it to Jesus, and now they're doing it to me."
Marge: "Are you comparing yourself to our lord?!"
Homer: "Well, in bowling ability..."
-The Simpsons

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Exactly the problem.

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Frank's Home Page
"He's Satan. And not the good kind. I hate him. If there is a god, I hope Jebus has him fry in hell." - DT, in reference to me

Posted by Dane Simri (Member # 272) on :

[/Flanders-speak]
Frank, don't be such a negative-Nelly!
[end /Flanders-speak]

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Dane

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

Frank just likes to bash Voyager to see who he can ***off. These kind of things now get you banned at the BBS. Not that I agree with the bannings, because I don't, on the other hand, if it's drival, like Franks current arguement...

Sprit Folk: I liked it. The Doc was priceless, the rest of the show was humorous, I watched it twice.

Ashes to Ashes: A good Harry episode. Well Done, but; I don't want to see another episode where Harry loses the girl, and I don't want to see another ep where someone catches up with the ship after three years. There was nothing to indicate that the *****i had Trans-Warp, or any other tech that would allow them to catch Voyager. Voyager and DS9 were equally bad about ignoreing distance.

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Ed: You may not agree with me, but what I'm saying still constitutes a valid argument.

Also, read what Sluss has to say about "Spirit Folk," but not if you're in a bad mood.

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Frank's Home Page
"He's Satan. And not the good kind. I hate him. If there is a god, I hope Jebus has him fry in hell." - DT, in reference to me

[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited March 06, 2000).]

Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :

I noticed Harry using rations for flowers, and wondered about it. They also said they had to go to the bar to get to the controls, I know that was wrong. The church would have looked better if it had some paintings hanging on the wall, but that's not a big thing. I thought the Doctors part was very entertaining, both the preaching(what does a hologram do on Vacation?) and being hypnotized. I accept him being hypnotized because he had become part of the program, and the shot gun blast shouldn't have caused any damage, but the program was screwed up. Hell, they never should have let the program run and used up all the energy involved, but the show made me laugh, and that's all it was meant for. I wouldn't usually defend an ep so full of holes, but I had a good time watching this one, and Elim is on vacation, so I though I would fill in for him, so eat worms Frank.

As for Ashes to Ashes, I liked it, but it shouldn't have happened. She should never have caught up with Voyager.

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Fool of a Took, throw yourself in next time!!
Gandalf

[This message has been edited by Kosh (edited March 06, 2000).]