Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Why the Dominion War cannot be won by traditional means. (may develop spoilers)

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Unless some extraordinary decision is made, the end of DS9 will see the end of the war. But how will that happen? I can see three possibilites to end immediate hostilities in the Alpha Quadrant.

1.) Military occupation of all Cardassian territory. This is perhaps the most obvious solution, but it is one that is virtually impossible because of the Jem'Hadar. So long as even one Jem'Hadar is alive, without orders to the contrary, the war will continue. Hunting down every Jem'Hadar in Cardassian space would be extremely bloody and taxing. The damage done to the civilian population in the area will be immense. And mind you, by this time we can assume the Cardassians will have surrendered, but not the Jem'Hadar. Bombarding a world from orbit gets extremely questionable when the government of that world has surrendered to you.

2.) Defeating the Dominion in Cardassian space is too costly, and getting the Jem'Hadar to surrender is impossible. However, it is possible to force a retreat, if you can make the Founders desperate enough to recall those forces. The only way to do that is to attack the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant.

The problem with attacking like this is that all of your supply lines come down to a single source, the wormhole. I think it's safe to bet that the Dominion has annexed all the space around the wormhole by now, and has a formidable garrison around it. That has to be destroyed. Then a new one has to be built by Starfleet and allies, this time to protect the aforementioned supply lines. Unlike the Dominion, the allies have no foothold or potential foothold in the Gamma Quadrant. They would be solely dependant upon connection to the Alpha Quadrant.

This plan is flawed as well, though. The Jem'Hadar are easily produced, meaning there is little to be gained by bringing in the Cardassian contigent. It seems more likely that those Jem'Hadar would perhaps be used to attack allied positions in the Alpha Quadrant, or to attack DS9. To counter that, you'd need to keep a sizable portion of the fleet back, but you need as many ships as possible to hold Gamma Quadrant positions.

3.) The third option is a diplomatic one. We know that the Founders are at war with the Alpha Quadrant because of their fear of solids. Convince them that AQ solids are not a threat, and the war can end. Of course, whether the Founders will listen to that or not is a different story. The allies do have a few advantages, though. For instance, for almost all of the Dominion, the Founders are myth. Some may consider them to be historical allegory, but whatever the popular opinion, they do not officially exist. The AQ powers know differently. That knowledge could be used to blackmail the Founders into ending the war. It could even be used to shakeup the stability of the Dominion, if necessary.

Well, that's my take on it. A sucessful strategy would probably combine elements of all three, breaking Dominion control of Cardassia, showing the Founders that the Alpha Quadrant will not easily be conquered, and reaching a diplomatic agreement of some sort. What do you think?

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"I'll turn everything around and confuse you. I'll fix it so you can't remember what was true."
--
They Might Be Giants

Posted by Chimaera on :

I would pretty much aggree. Personally, I think a military occupation of Cardassia is the most plausible, but I would add a couple of things.

Firstly, the Jem'Hadar are dependent on the Ketracel White, and once their supply is gone they will eventually die, so if their are any survivors after the war they may not last long anyway. And secondly, the writers, when in a situation like this, always seem to have an ace up their sleeve to get the Federation out of a sticky situation (recall what happened at the end of Sacrifice of Angels). I suspect that the Founder's disease may be part of this "ace up their sleeve".

As for breaking Dominion control of Cardassia, I think that the unfortunate transporter accident that killed Weoyun 5 may be evidence that the allies may have some help there. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if the Obsidian Order resurfaces in The Final Chapter in some way, perhaps (and this is pure speculation on my part) they even cooperated with section 31 to give the Founders their disease. After all, both section 31 and my favourite Cardassian tailor are scheduled to make an appearance.

(Can you tell I'm an X-Files fan, I'm seeing conspiracies everywhere now :-) )

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"Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you."
-Commander Riker, USS Enterprise

Posted by Warped1701 (Member # 40) on :

There is also the fact that DS9 is blocking the wormhole entrance. It's reasonable to assume that the Federation put another minefield into place to seal off the wormhole after SoA, and in the event that the Dominion took DS9 again, it would entail removing another minefield.

This eliminates reinforcement from the Gamma Quadrant. It also poses a problem. How can the Dominion go back to the Gamma Quadrant if the Federation is blocking the wormhole entrance? It shall be interesting to see how this all turns out.

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Risk is our business! That's what this starship is all about....that's why we're aboard her!"

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

This is why the possibility of killing off the founders exist. Without the Founders, you won't have anyone to create the Ketracel White needed for the soldiers, you won't have anyone to spawn more Jem'Hedar soldiers, and the Jem'Hedar would just kill themselves because they failed to protect their gods.

This is by far the quickest means to end the war. It is also the worst and cheapest as well. (Cop out ahoy if this happens, which, IMHO, is most likely.) Hence the diplomatic situation is needed. Perhaps the AQ forces will play a role in saving the founders from the disease, and the Founders will have some gratitude towards them......

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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

Posted by Cargile (Member # 45) on :

Option number four: dissention among the ranks. If portions of Vorta and the Jem Haddar can be persuaded that they are being misused by the Founders and that they have a right to existance beyond the control of the Founders, then a civil war could disrupt the whole of the Dominion, causing them to fight two fronts and overall weaken the Dominion's effectiveness.

It's the old "Kirk confuses the computer" ploy.

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I'm the only one who understands me, and I ire of my company.
--Paul Cargile

Posted by Orion Syndicate (Member # 25) on :

If the founders die, the whole of the Dominion will collapse - there's an end to the war. Weak, but effective, and Section 31 is who we thank for that.

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"YOU SMEG!"

Posted by spawnie on :

maybe they'll do a Voyager and just have the Borg come in and wipe out the Dominion...

Personally, I think it will have something to do with the Prophets, and Sisko's role as Emissary. Although this would have a corny 'Sisko saves the universe' feel to it, similar to Picard in 'All Good Things'.

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Orion: Weak, but cheap, immoral, genocidal, evil, and anything bad you can decide of it.

The Founders, like any other race, do not deserve to be killed off because of their acts. That's not what Star Trek is about.

Section 31 to thank for that? I'd dump them out of the nearest airlock, and probably you as well for supporting them.

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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

This is preety much a moot argument. You are all attempting to predict the outcome of the war based on logical deduction and reasonable conjecture.
Unfortunately, the writers will probably not think it out nearly this much. Expect a deux-ex-machina to present itself at the last minute:
Possibilities include
- Section 31 and their deadly virus of Dooooommmm!
- The all-powerful Prophets. They may only rate a 70 on the Weibrand scale, but this would evidently be enough to make them omnipotent. They could "vanish" some more bad guys.
- All of a sudden the Jem'Hadar get angry with the Cardassians and kill them all. Then, realising their goof, they top themselves too.

I suspect we will be debating in the aftermath of the finale some way to rationalise what the writers come up with....

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"To appear in an Ernie Wise play...is the final accolade"
"Look at me and say that"
"Accolade."
"AH-hahaha!"

Posted by Orion Syndicate (Member # 25) on :

Immoral, genocidal, probably. But isn't that the point. The Federation have created this Utopia of sorts, but would still resort to such lengths to defeat an enemy. I think it'll be a great storyline.

And all this stuff about what Star trek is about and Gene Roddenberry's dream - it's just holding everything back. Gene Roddenberry's dead and although I will forever be in his debt for bringing us Star Trek, we have to move on from 'his dream' and take Star Trek in new directions, even if it moves beyond that Utopia existance and doing some immoral acts.

The name of the episode :Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges means In war, laws shall be silent. Even the Federation and section 31 will betray their own laws and the Prime Directive which every captain breaks probably a thousand times in their career anyway.

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"If it should become necessary to fight, could you arrange to find me some rocks to throw at them"

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Orion: First of all, the killing off of the Founders would be equivalent of Ethnic Cleansing (sorry, I really don't want to go into this, but that's what I think it feels like). We will not tolerate it today, and it certainly would not be tolerated in Star Trek. Secondly, if it does happen, then Roddenberry's dream has all gone to moot (it would be like legitimizing Ethnic Cleansing in our world, sorry there too).

Sure I understand that some people will do anything to achieve victory, but if it is achieved through incomprehensible means, then it is a horrible ending. Even a few "I'm sorry's will not cut it".

I CERTAINLY hope that the Feds will not go down that path. And I CERTAINLY HOPE that the Founders survive, somehow.

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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

Posted by spawnie on :

well, the writers seem to have dug themselves into a hole with the whole war storyline, and we know that it will be resolved so as not to carry on into any future series, so something dramatic will have to happen.

To quote the late Senator Vreenak, 'the Dominion is resolved to win the war at any cost'. So I can't see how the Founders will just back down and scurry back to the Gamma Quadrant (assuming the Prophets would let them). As already stated, the Jem Hadar will fight to the last man, so I don't see how the Federation will have any choice but to utterly destroy them, purely out of self-defence...

Whatever happens, it shall be big, I just hope they don't go for the soft option of either a 'reset button', or to have the Founders back down, something totally out of character with what has been established over the series.

We all know that the Federation will win, that's a given. Therefore, the founders must lose, totally.

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

I must disagree with Orion's statement that "Trek needs to move beyond Roddenberry's dream, even if it means going beyond Utopia."

But the whole point of the Federation is that it IS as close to Utopia as you could want. It is adopted by each fan as an embodiment of their own personal vision of a just and prosperous society. As such it becomes something to aspire to, and a breeding ground for the heroes to man its starships.

The idea of painting everything in shades of grey, and ferreting out the corruption & darkness at the heart of government is a very cliched 90s perspective. Just because the powers of this century are flawed does not make those of the future so. Indeed, the inadequacies of today's real world make an example of what we should be aiming for all the more important.

There is of course scope for a dystopian slant on Mankind's future, B5 has shown us aspects of that. But it is INCOMPATIBLE with the ethos of Star Trek. And I don't care how often Ira-"Let's destroy the earth"-Behr moans about fans complaining about tampering with the Federation. This isn't his show to play around with.

So there. 8P

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"To appear in an Ernie Wise play...is the final accolade"
"Look at me and say that"
"Accolade."
"AH-hahaha!"

Posted by Orion Syndicate (Member # 25) on :

'legitimizing ethnic cleansing'? I think that most of us have got enough sense to know that anything that happens in a television programme is just a story although I admit that Star Trek is a cult programme with a huge following, and is not just simply a 'television programme' any more.

However, I doubt that anyone will watch the DS9 finale, see the destruction of the Founders and then go on a killing spree of every person who is not the same religion as they are, or think to themselves that the Federation did it, so it must be okay.

Anyone who uses TV as an excuse for murder is just a psycho who is looking for a way out and something else to blame but themselves.

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"If it should become necessary to fight, could you arrange to find me some rocks to throw at them"

Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :

No matter how it is eventually solved, it will probably a "no one really wanted it, but it just happened / had to be done" end. Immorality has been part of DS9 for quite a while, and I don't think the writers let it end with the Federation betraying their principles (for the sake of Gene's vision).
Nevertheless, I wouldn't like a solution, where the good guys (here: the Federation, in particular the DS9 crew) may claim to be moral, while someone else does the killing job. This would remind me of the TNG episode "Silicon Avatar" where the evil crystalline entity is killed by the mad scientist, while the Enterprise crew is very upset about this immoral action. It was the worst TNG episode by far.

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Brain. Brain. What is brain? (Kara the Eymorg, "Spock's Brain")
www.uni-siegen.de/~ihe/bs/startrek/

Posted by The Excalibur (Member # 34) on :

Personally, I just hope the last nine episodes are better then the previous nine. This has been one weak season do far.

And I think getting away from "Gene's Dream" is the difference in the Rateings between DS9 and TNG.

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Parallax

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Ex: Bingo

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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Actually, I meant this thread to be a discussion of potential strategies, not an indictment on dramatic conventions.

Also, DS9's ratings have little if anything to do with the show's philosophy, and everything to do with the simple fact that nothing on television is getting ratings as high as those from the late 80's/early 90's.

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"The record of my unspeakable crimes, in previous lives, in previous times, indelibly stains the pages of history."
--
They Might Be Giants