I noticed:
Anyone able to discern anything else on this map?
------------------
Devil: Oh look at the time! I'm late for services.
Stone: Services?
Devil: A group of young teenagers that have been celebrating the Black Sabbath are planning on deep-sixing their gym teacher tonight. I'm gonna go and give them a little encouragement.
Brimstone. May it rest in syndication.
Sorry.
------------------
Devil: Oh look at the time! I'm late for services.
Stone: Services?
Devil: A group of young teenagers that have been celebrating the Black Sabbath are planning on deep-sixing their gym teacher tonight. I'm gonna go and give them a little encouragement.
Brimstone. May it rest in syndication.
Except for the arrows and front lines, this is exactly the map from the DS9TM. I don't see any new planets except for AR-558. Nevertheless, it might be interesting to analyze the strategy.
------------------
"Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities."
Ex Astris Scientia
On the bigger map, picture Rains06.jpg, we see the yellow lines form a closed circle which could indeed depict a nation or a region of space held by one party. But the details of picture 01 contradict that interpretation. Frustratingly enough, there would seem to be some sort of a legend box in the upper left corner...
Another interesting thing is that red arrows (apparent threat movements) seem to sprout from locations far away from Cardassia - in the picture 01, we see blue arrows coming from near DS9 and "chasing" red arrows towards another set of blue arrows in a pincer movement of sorts. This might indicate that the war did not consist of each side sending out forces from territory held by it - instead, whole fleets were moving freely across the battlespace, and could maneuver around each other far away from home bases. Actual "border battles" would only take place in areas where there were fixed defences and highly concentrated forces - that is, near homeworlds and major clusters of colonies.
In other words, the war between Cardassia and Earth would be waged in a great and almost empty "Pacific Ocean" between the fleets of the two nations, there being few (but important) points of strategic interest in between.
Also noteworthy is the location of Chin'toka. As we remember, AR-558 was in that system. And the AR-558 logo lies almost directly between SB375 and Ferenginar. Was that really the first part of "actual Cardassian territory" hit by Federation forces, as "Tears of the Prophets" seemed to claim? Did Cardassians hold the space between Chin'toka and Cardassia as well, or just the isolated systems?
And what would the Klingon logo symbolize? Surely not the location of Qo'noS. Perhaps there was a system there that the Klingons were still holding despite the events of "By Inferno's Light". Or a newly established Klingon forward base. Or just a major Klingon fleet.
It would be nice to see the entire map, as in picture 06. It extends "east" of the original DS9 TM map - but does it extend far enough to actually show Earth or Romulus? There are red arrows even in the far right edge of the picture...
Timo Saloniemi
I've never even seen the DS9 Technical Manual, so I couldn't possibly comment on this map's likeness to the map Bernd mentioned. Perhaps some generous soul with a scanner...?
Anyway, I agree with the idea that few bigass Midway-scale battles occured during the war - or even battles dealing with 30 or more ships. The flattened fleet seen in 'A Time To Stand' was probably a fairly small but important battle group tasked with keeping the Dominion at bay, and not to engage in system invasions (like the Chin'toka invasion force).
Speaking of which, where exactly is Chin'toka labeled on the map?
As for AR-558's location:
Betazed is well within the borders of the Federation, right? Well, the only reason such a fuss was made out of it being taken was that it's a core Federation world.
Now, what if AR-558 was a Federation world all the time, an unimportant unpopulated lump of rock whose tactical usefulness was obviously recognised by the Dominion. They took the planet, built a seriously major subspace relay within it, and fortified the planet to a huge degree. Fortifiers keepers.
The Arrow Situation:
I think that hese simply highlight short term ship-group movements and do not highlight where the ships originally came from e.g.) Cardassia, Starbase 375, or DS9.
Starbase 375:
It's near enough Ferenginar for a Runabout to make the trip from the station to it in a matter of days, yet near enough the "lines" for the Dominion to mount a suprise attack (both ideas scabbed from 'Valiant').
Ferenginar:
I hope to God that the Federation is located to the very right of this image, because if it's above this image, then that means Ferenginar is a soverign world inside the Federation!! The right. We need the right. Say it with me.
Looking back on what Timo wrote, I think this is what he had in mind -> Feds in the East. The red arrows over that side (Image Rains06 I'm talking about) could highlight Dominion activity in or around Betazed and it's surroundings.
I think the yellow lines might represent the "front line" at various stages of the conflict. Note DS9 is within 3 of them (corresponding to the beginning of the war when it was in Dominion hands).
As they come nowhere near AR-558, I am presuming that it was in enemy hands for no more that a month or so. It could be that the lines are very out of date, or very presumptuous in that it has a line right up against Cardassia, and the Dominion didn't pull back to there until 'The Dogs Of War' (I think).
I really don't know what the lines signify, now that I think about it.
Skipped over to Alidar Jarok's page to get these:
This is the map from the beginning of 'The Reckoning', in which Sisko and Worf mention the offensive to prevent the Dominion from opening up a supply corridor to Betazed via (I think) the Argolis Cluster.
http://kcohn.simplenet.com/alidarjarok/deepspace9/thereckoning/Reckon01.jpg
Actually, this shows what might be happneing over the other side of the quadrant - Dominion desperately trying to break out of Betazed space, and not having much luck.
http://kcohn.simplenet.com/alidarjarok/deepspace9/whenitrains/Rains03.jpg
Note also the Romulan insignia in the thingy above "Subspace Relay AR-558" - this and the Klingon symbol probabaly show fleet locations. They're covering the left while the Federation does it's little dance back at Betazed.
You know, I'll really need someone to tell me Chin'toka's location before I can go on.
Thanx in advanx.
[This message has been edited by Gaseous Anomaly (edited April 11, 2000).]
Why do the yellow lines need to be based on time? We're talking about a map of 3D space. The lines can be cross-sections of the borders at various depths from the plane of the map. Also, Ferenginar needn't be in Fed space if the UFP is to the top. It could be well to the back or front of the map.
------------------
"Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!"
-Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
------------------
"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven
Even then, it seems odd that the lines do not extend "north" towards the AR-558 array when we see the map in "The Reckoning". Wouldn't Cardassia at that time still have a stranglehold of the system? Based on dialogue from "The Siege of AR-558", it seems well established that AR-558 is a planet *inside* the Chin'toka system. Probably not one of the two big twin planets where the main fleets were fighting, nor the moons we saw near them - otherwise, there would have been more activity near AR-558 than just some raiding Jem'Hadar battlebugs and a few hundred soldiers.
The Encyclopedia 2.5 has a partial map of the Chin'toka system, showing that the two big planets are co-orbiting and have at least one moon. The map doesn't seem to specifically show AR-558, though.
As for the Betazed aspect, I don't think it would be a good idea to have Betazed located close to the UFP core worlds. If betazoids lived so near to Earth, there would have been references in TOS (where telepathy was a very exotic thing and telepathic aliens were feared or eyed with suspicion). More probably, Betazed is a rather new acquisition by the UFP, and happens to lie conveniently between Cardassia and the UFP core worlds so that its loss literally opens the way to an attack "on Vulcan and eventually Earth" as the dialogue says in "In the Pale Moonlight".
Benzar, OTOH, seems to be close to the UFP core - after all, the Romulans who supposedly live "behind" the Federation from the Cardie point of view were able to "liberate" and hold this planet. I'd suggest that the red arrows far in the "east" part of the map deal with the battles near Benzar, and with the battles that took advantage of initial Romulan neutrality.
The map seems to fully support the idea that Romulans are "northeast" from Earth, since this is where the red arrows are in the map. Klingons could be "southeast" as commonly depicted, but the map wouldn't show that region. I have no problem with the location of Ferenginar as depicted, although the distance from there to SB375 is over 30 ly at least in the maps, meaning that a runabout limited to warp 4.7 wold take weeks or months to cross the distance. Perhaps modern runabouts are faster than we thought?
Also of interest is that Vulcan was supposed to fall *sooner* than Earth in many of the episodes. Perhaps Vulcan is actually located between Earth and Cardassia? Then it cannot be 40 Eridani, which lies "southeast" from Earth. Or perhaps the dialogue assumes that Vulcan would fall sooner because it is less defended than Earth, even if it is slightly farther away from Cardassia than Earth is.
Uh, these commentaries tend to become a bit long-winded. Sorry about that.
Timo Saloniemi
There's no Romulan logo over the AR-558 legend. The logo is identical to the subspace comm array logo used in the DS9 Tech Manual for the relay station jointly built by UFP and Cardassia in "Destiny". It shows a dish antenna facing up and sending out "waves".
The yellow lines might not be a complex way to portray 3D at all. Instead, each of them could represent a 3D situation in simple 2D terms at a different points of time . The solid lines would mean earlier situations, from the time Cardassia and Dominion controlled DS9 and the space around it. The dotted lines would depict more recent stages of the war. One could say that the two solid lines represent the "max" and "min" estimates of the inevitably fuzzy lines of battle early on, just as the two dotted lines represent the "max" and "min" estimates of the current situation (the pessimistic estimate shows DS9 retaken by Dominion, the optimistic one shows UFP-Klingon-Romulan axis forces on Cardassian doorstep!).
Again, there's the contradiction that the "past" lines do not show AR-558 in Cardassian hands, even though during the occupation of DS9 it must have been.
Timo Saloniemi
------------------
"Compared to you, every male on this ship is an expert on women!"
-Geordi LaForge to Wesley Crusher, TNG: "Sarek"
I guess there is still room for saying that AR-558 was in some other contested star system which the Defiant also visited during her supply run, before or after Chin'toka - I do not remember the dialogue exactly.
"Tears of the Prophets" doesn't really present Chin'toka as a gateway to Cardassia or anything. It is simply a system within old Cardassian territory, and the first such system to be attacked by the FKR axis forces in the war - previously, all the action had been on the former UFP side of the border. One could consider the Chin'toka strike a cunning surprise attack at the enemy's flank or rear, instead of a simple frontal attack at a system between Bajor and Cardassia.
And it would be a tight fit to place Chin'toka between Bajor and Cardassia anyway. There are only 5.25 lightyears between those locations, per the DS9 TM. Note that there is no mention of going through Chin'toka when the FKR fleet finally hits Cardassia Prime - the ships depart from DS9 and head directly for Cardassia.
I wholly subscribe to the idea that Cardassia could consist of isolated bubbles instead of one integrated volume. In fact, it would make sense for ALL the Trek empires to be built up that way. There would be token spacelanes between the bubbles, sometimes claimed as territory by the owners of the bubbles and sometimes not. "Cutting" such a spacelane would be like trying to "cut" a prevailing wind - the lane would be a flexible thing across empty and worthless space. "Bubbles" could only be besieged in their very proximity.
A map of Cardassia could be a vast sea of lizard green, bordering on the equally vast navy blue expanse of the Federation. But zooming in, one would realize that each side only consisted of tiny bubbles around isolated star systems, and a Cardassian fleet could in fact maneuver deep inside the blue-colored regions of the map without being challenged, and vice versa.
Timo Saloniemi
)Anyway, what about the 'Reckoning' map? I mean, Sisko seems to be pointing way over to the left, wherever that is (Cardassian space?). Maybe he's just waving his hands about like so many men past their sexual prime do.
The notion that it's not betazed, but Benzar that we're looking at (in the east) brings up new possibilities. However, in Rains06 there appears to be an awfully large Dominion presence in that area (if the yellow lines are anything to go by) - perhaps disproportionally large if the Romulans have kicked the Dominion out off Benzar nearly a year since.
There's nothing canonical around about Benzar's and Betazed's histories in the Federation, but just because Betazed may not have been a founder member (or even an important one in TOS), we've seen plenty more Betazoids lately than we have Tellarites or Andorians (another thing for the wish list!).
Besides, I always thought that Benzar only joined the UFP in the past few years, because of events in 'A Matter Of Honour' viz. a seperate Benzite fleet. This might suggest Benzar's a good distance away from the Federation centre. Maybe I'm wrong, but then again I've not seen the ep above in about 3 years.
Nonetheless I'm sticking with my "Dominion scrapping to get out of Betazoid space" notions.
Another thing: put simply, I cannot believe that Ar-558 is in the Chin'toka system - must take over the video otnight so's I can watch 'The Siege Of AR-558' again before I make any more irrational calls.
OHH hang on, it might.
If we consider the space to the west and north-west of DS9 as being Cardassian space, then maybe Cardassian space always spilled in as far as where AR-558 is positioned on the map, and maybe that position is Chin'toka. With a 3-dimensional amp, that might not be problem concerning Ferenginar. But then Jake and Nog's (aborted)journey to Ferenginar would have taken them through enemy lines unescorted, as Chin'toka/AR-558(?) wouldn't have been taken by then.
BUT then why, if in the episode 'When It Rains' (episode the map is taken from)where the Chin'toka system has been retaken by the Dominion, are there no lines around it? Naive question, I know.
Then again, the presence of what I think is a big Klingon fleet near AR-588(and Chin'toka?) might reinforce the fact that the Klingons are the only line of defense left for the moment.
BUT did Martok know enough about the surviving BoP at the time of the discussion to have his forces placed on high alert at AR-558/Chin'toka?
Too many variables.
Head hurts.
If anyone can find a conclusive argument contained in the above let me know.
------------------
Devil: Oh look at the time! I'm late for services.
Stone: Services?
Devil: A group of young teenagers that have been celebrating the Black Sabbath are planning on deep-sixing their gym teacher tonight. I'm gonna go and give them a little encouragement.
Brimstone. May it rest in syndication.
Still have to see the episode.
This is getting to be a bit of an obsession, i must admit.
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Devil: Oh look at the time! I'm late for services.
Stone: Services?
Devil: A group of young teenagers that have been celebrating the Black Sabbath are planning on deep-sixing their gym teacher tonight. I'm gonna go and give them a little encouragement.
Brimstone. May it rest in syndication.
But mine are longer.. Anyway, the yellow lines apparently do change between "The Reckoning" and "When it Rains..." - the big bulge "northeast" disappears, which could very well reflect the moving of Betazed from Dominion to Romulan hands. Romulans are the "northernmost" empire in the big DS9 galactic map, so it would make sense for them to strike from this direction, sort of (even if the scaling of the DS9 galactic map is way off).
What is interesting are the other changes between the episodes. The blue arrows are of course added as the FKR forces go to the offensive, and the Klingon and Comm Relay logos appear on the map. The yellow lines inside the center area (the original DS9 TM map) do not move, nor do the red arrows from "The Reckoning" disappear or move.
But inexplicably, Ferenginar moves to a new location! In "The Reckoning", it's where the DS9 TM map puts it, north-northeast from Bajor, In "When it Rains...", it is directly north of Bajor, and the star labeled NX-774 has also moved out of the way of the Comm Relay logo. The yellow grid on the background has also moved.
Did the Ferengi do the Pierson Puppeteer thing and decide to move their planet out of the war zone? If so, they appear to be moving in the wrong direction...
In the original location, AR-558 and thus the war zone wouldn't have so completely blocked access from SB375 to Ferenginar. With the move, a line-of-sight exists between SB375 and Ferenginar past the Comm Relay logo, but that line goes between AR-558 and Cardassia. Using the "bubble space" theory, this could be sufficient for Jake and Nog to travel. But equally possible is that the Dominion forces at AR-558 are getting reinforcements from Cardassia (or another location near Cardassia), so our heroes would risk running to these reinforcements.
What if the Comm Relay logo is not quite centered on the relay, but is instead referring to the nearest bright star not obscured by it? If it referred to the big white dot on the lower left corner, then there'd be a line from SB375 to Ferenginar all right. But doesn't it seem as if the dot-in-brackets just above to logo is labeled "AR-558"?
If AR-558 gets a label of its own, then this would further support the hypothesis that it is in a star system of its own and not inside the Chin'toka system. Chin'toka isn't explicitly labeled anywhere, and could for example be the system "east-southeast" from Bajor where forking red arrows start towards "northeast", and blue arrows strike from DS9 and from "northeast"... Although the target of a blue assault beyond Badlands is another possibility, as you suggest.
One final note: In the "The Reckoning" picture, one can see the legend box rather close up, and it seems that the explanations are given there for red and blue arrows and for solid and dotted yellow lines. What's more, it seems that the explanations are in form of actual English words, instead of just random strings of numbers. How, oh how could we get an even closer look?!?
Timo Saloniemi
The most comprehensive map of the alpha quadrant to date
------------------
Try not.
Do.
Or Do not.
There is no try.
The episode doesn't explicitly say it, but I think the inference there is that AR-558 is in Chin'toka. The latino headcase says that they've been there for five months, which fits in with the time since Chin'toka was taken in 'Tears Of The Prophets'
i.e. (three months of Sisko's brooding) + (rest of season) - (fact that these troops weren't on AR-558 all the time since 'TotP'.
I, however, dispute this.
For one thing, why in the hell is it called AR-558? I mean, what's wrong with calling it Chin'toka 5, or whatever? It may be the moon of a gas giant(and therefore deserving of a lesser nomenclature), but what are the chances of a single system having not only two Class-M planets, but a habitable moon as well? Remember, I think Martok mentioned landing troops on both planets, and no mention was made of any moon.
Hang on Timo, do you mean the bulge west of the Badlands? if so, you've your directions mixed up, as I can't see any bulge worth mentioning to the northeast in the 'Reckoning' picture.
I was going to suggest that the disappearance of the (small western) bulge (in When It Rains') was due to the capturing of Chin'toka by Fed forces, but they'd just lost the planet, so that's plain nonsensical.
AHH now I see where you're getting that: Rains06. Ignore that last paragraph. You're, of course, right.
That means that Sisko could be pointing at Betazed's general location in the map. Off to the bookies I trot.
What then about that smaller bulge west of the Badlands? Any ideas?
Oh yeah, I never noticed the legend in the 'Reckoning' piccie either.. Well done. Of course, MS Photo Editor is of no use. Because it's shite.
Anyone got GhostScript? I hear that's great.
This is really pissing me off.
*Grasping at straws*
What if each map is off-kilter with respect to the others in the third dimension? It might explain all the line differences and Ferenginars dance routine.
*Steam seen and heard from GA's direction, northbleedingeast of the Badlands*
I think we
This is taking over my life.
Well not really.
Maybe only a bit.
But it's a significant bit.
Sort off.
------------------
Devil: Oh look at the time! I'm late for services.
Stone: Services?
Devil: A group of young teenagers that have been celebrating the Black Sabbath are planning on deep-sixing their gym teacher tonight. I'm gonna go and give them a little encouragement.
Brimstone. May it rest in syndication.
[This message has been edited by Gaseous Anomaly (edited April 14, 2000).]
OH HA BLOODY HA JAMIE!!
What computer suite are you in? I'm down under Chemistry - I can never remember the name.
I suspect you're just ripping the piss.
However, a map from Krenim or Chris wouldn't go astray to aid and abet, or abort, the accursed debate. Anyone?
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Devil: Oh look at the time! I'm late for services.
Stone: Services?
Devil: A group of young teenagers that have been celebrating the Black Sabbath are planning on deep-sixing their gym teacher tonight. I'm gonna go and give them a little encouragement.
Brimstone. May it rest in syndication.
And yes, I am ripping the piss.
I'll be down in a minute.
------------------
Try not.
Do.
Or Do not.
There is no try.
[This message has been edited by Gurgeh (edited April 14, 2000).]
????
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...but the universal nature delights in change, and in obedience to her all things are done well...
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"I'm green! I'm olive! I'm chartreuse!
I'd love to stay one color, but what's the use?"
- Zorak, Bad Bug, Cartoon Planet.
And HrafnWif, you're probably thinking of this
http://kcohn.simplenet.com/alidarjarok/deepspace9/behindthelines/Lines12.jpg
It shows a 3D representation of Starbase 375, the Argolis Cluster and a Dominion subspace array.
Note however that the map is totally inconsistent with the map in the 'Reckoning', if we're to believe that Sisko was pointing towards the Cluster (while discussing the Dominion's efforts to open a supply corridor to Betazed, or something like that.
------------------
Secret spies frm China try to steal you mind's elation,
Little girls from Sweden dream of silver screen flirtation,
And if you want these kind of dreams
It's Californication.
Did he say something like "Dominion is expanding here to cut off our supply lines to Betazed" when pointing to the "northwest" expansion? That would more or less have to mean that Betazed lies "west" of Cardassia and the area of explansion, since the expansion couldn't otherwise cut off supply lines between Betazed and SB375, or Betazed and Earth. It would then stand to reason that Betazed would be among the first big UFP worlds to fall.
But how would fall of Betazed then open up the possibility of invasion of Vulcan or Earth, if Betazed was in the opposite direction from Cardassia? Perhaps this comment from "In the Pale Moonlight" only meant that if Betazed (of defensive power rating of X points) had fallen, then Dominion could now plausibly take on Vulcan (defensive rating X+1 points) and ultimately Earth (defensive rating X+2 points)? Or that the fall of Betazed would collapse a Starfleet "second front" and allow Dominion forces to be concentrated against the Earth front.
And did Sisko say that the expansion in "The Reckoning" included annexing the Argolis cluster? If so, how does the "Behind the Lines" map contradict this? Both would seem to show Argolis as lying left of SB375, so if we assume that left means "west", where's the problem? In the fact that the sensor array in the "Lines" map is several grid squares removed from SB375, and would then be hard pressed to monitor Starfleet movements if the grid scaling is the same as in the "The Reckoning" map (but the grids can't be identical - "Lines" is perfectly square/cubical, while "Reckoning" has horizontally elongated rectangles)?
Or is there some other contradiction I'm not aware of?
What was the TNG reference to Argolis cluster? Was it formerly part of UFP territory, or unexplored space, or what? I'm certain there was a TNG reference, but my Encyclopedia and I are sadly separated at the moment.
Timo Saloniemi
We really need a transcript of Sisko's monologue from every single instance he's pointing at a map, any map...!
Timo Saloniemi
------------------
"Oh, it's an anti-anti-WTO song. It's essentially a pro-Starbucks song. I saw this picture of a guy sticking his foot through a plate-glass window in a Starbucks in Seattle, and he was wearing a Nike. Man, couldn't you just change your shoes?"
--
M. Doughty
I really don't have the time to debate the map situation nowadays - exams looming like a mushroom cloud, with the inevitable frying coming soon after.
My videos of 'The Reckoning' and 'Behind The Lines' are back home in the Wesht, and therefore unaccessible to me until the end of May, when I return home. I therefore amn't really able to confirm with 100% accuracy what Sisko said in 'The Reckoning', but I'm pretty sure he didn't say anything about "cutting Betazed off from Dominion lines" or the like.
I'll pitch in when the going gets easy (like now! ) but I think someone else better assume the mantle of Unreasonable Stubborn Gas Cloud for the rest of this argument.
------------------
Secret spies frm China try to steal you mind's elation,
Little girls from Sweden dream of silver screen flirtation,
And if you want these kind of dreams
It's Californication.
SISKO is standing at an OKUDAGRAM briefing his senior staff about the war with the Dominion. DAX, WORF, BASHIR and KIRA are seated at the table; ODO stands near the window. The mood is somber.
SISKO
(indicating the star
map)
-- the Dominion has solidified its hold on the Kalandra Sector.
They're trying to establish a
supply line running through
Betazoid space into the Argolis Cluster.
WORF
If they succeed, they would be
able to launch an attack on
Vulcan.
SISKO
(nods)
Starfleet's going to try to cut
them off near the Tibor Nebula.
The Seventh Fleet will be engaging
the enemy in the morning.
DAX
The Seventh Fleet is still at half-
strength. They took heavy losses
at Sybaron.
SISKO
We'll just have to hope they can
get the job done.
(beat)
On a happier note, I do have a bit
of good news.
Bl CONTINUED:
BASHIR
That's a welcome change.
SISKO
The Romulans have forced the
Dominion to retreat from the
Bolian System.
The senior staff break into enthusiastic WALLAH. Sisko
smiles, gives them a moment to enjoy the good news.
Then Odo chimes in with a sober observation.
ODO
That is good news. The question
is, will the Romulans be willing
to leave Bolarus after the war's
over?
This causes everyone to shift uncomfortably. Odo's
raised a possibility that most of them would rather not
think about.
ODO
Once they capture territory, they
rarely give it up.
Sisko privately shares Odo's concern, but he needs to
keep his people on track.
SISKO
Right now, we need to concentrate
on beating the Dominion. We'll
worry about the Romulans later.
Odo backs off with a shrug, but his point has clearly
soured the moment of celebration.
Cheers, Boris, although I'm pretty sure it was Benzar that was liberated by the Rommie pinko scum, not Bolarus/Bolias/Bolarias IX/wherever the Bolians hail from. That's a different story though.
Now, it turns out that the Argolis Cluster was within Federation space, but was probably taken by the Dominion - when, I don't know. I was going to say that it was probably taken at the beginning of the war, but if that's the case, then why would the Dominion be needing to get a supply route to it a third of the way through the war?
Not only that, but the map in 'Behind The Lines' (which I'm inclined to believe was nothing more than a schematic provided by Sisko to show Ross what he intended doing, as Sisko's finger-puppets were in the wash that day) and the associated dialouge implies that Argolis is in Dominion hands - Sisko's plan to whack the sensor array was nothing more than a Destroy mission, with no attempt to 'hold' the Argolis Cluster for the Federation.
With that, I, The Great Me, declare the 'Behind The Lines' map nothing more than a rough schematic for a battle plan.
So that leaves us with the map from the 'Reckoning' as our sole source on Argolis' position.
I could go on, but I won't.
Timo, have we actually reached consensus on a single thing/issue/location/status in this debate?
------------------
Secret spies frm China try to steal you mind's elation,
Little girls from Sweden dream of silver screen flirtation,
And if you want these kind of dreams
It's Californication.
------------------
Harold: "You're missing the point!"
Red: "Well, I don't like points."
-The Red Green Show
Argolis probably never was in Federation hands to begin with. The E-D was surveying it for possible *future* colonization use in "I, Borg". It seemed to be an uninhabited cluster of star systems, or else there would have been more concern about the Borg playing around there. So probably the region was up to grabs for whoever decided to claim it - it might have been economically demanding to develop the region, so neither UFP nor Cardassia initially bothered.
Argolis would seem to lie somewhere between SB375 and Cardassia if the "Behind the Lines" is in roughly the same orientation as the 2D maps. It probably also lies between SB375 and Bajor in that case. Makes sense, since we know Bajor is not UFP territory but an area holding a starbase is rather likely to be. So naturally, a potential future colonization area would be likely to lie between a confirmed UFP volume of space and a confirmed non-UFP one.
But if this is the accepted location of Argolis, then how can somebody run a supply line through Betazed (a surefire UFP member, right?) to this location from some location within known Cardassian/Dominion territory? Where *could* Betazed lie?
My strong favorite is that Betazed lies "above" or "below" the plane of the big 2D maps. Even though it is well within the yellow lines marking Cardassian/Dominion territory, it is actually in UFP- held space initially.
If Betazed lies more or less "above" or "below" Bajor,
then it all makes sense: Starfleet is hotly contesting the space between DS9 and SB375 at the time, so the Dominion cannot very well run a supply line from DS9 to Argolis on the plane of the map. But they could do a dogleg through Betazed to circumvent the battlefields near Bajor, and thus claim Argolis for their use. Then they could proceed to cut off Starfleet access to the Bajoran battlefield - AND they would have a foothold much closer to the Federation core worlds, including Vulcan.
Now, if Betazed is well "below" the map plane, then the core planet most vulnerable to attacks from this direction would be one that lies "below" the plane as well. Vulcan (40 Eri) would be about 10 ly below Earth if the plane of the map is the galactic plane. Andor (Epsilon Indii) would be about 8.6 ly below Earth, and closer to Cardassia, but to the "north" from the Earth-Cardassia line, while Vulcan is "south". So place Betazed "below" and "south" of Bajor and everything is just dandy.
Except for the fact that Sisko hand-waves in the wrong place in "The Reckoning", then. Should we forgive him his blunder?
Timo Saloniemi
And we'll just say that Sisko was following Jes�s Salvador Trevi�o's directions. The madman.
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Secret spies frm China try to steal you mind's elation,
Little girls from Sweden dream of silver screen flirtation,
And if you want these kind of dreams
It's Californication.
* The lines must be cardie/dominion territory. The internal one the cardies actual territory, the next one the hazy line around any space/territory. The other 2 lines are the dominion expansion both what they've got and the hazy area.
* The Dominion took Betazed and thus took control of the Kalendra Sector. Then to hold it they were expanding through the Argolis cluster (which they held, next to their big sensor array)and thus opening a line of supply between their own space and the large gap between there and Betazed. Obviously they succeeded all the lines east woudln't be there.
* The big Klingon Symbol is probably the 1500 Klingon ships coming (at the time) only a day away.
* Direct south of Bajor where there are 3 arrows each way may be Chintoka where the dominion took it back.
* Benzar seems obvious to the NE where theres alot of movement and thus Romulans?
Thats all of got for now. Some feedback please, since what you had here was very good.
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An Aussie Trek Narrator
Also, the Klingon logo is too static to represent a fleet, or then there is a major coincidence in that a big Klingon fleet always happens to be in the same place when we get to see the map... I'd assume this is a Klingon forward command post or something equally static.
An interesting bit of trivia: the "comm dish" logo denoting AR-558 has a long history. Apparently, this logo is a generic Federation symbol for subspace comm nodes, and it extends way back to ST:TMP. It decorated the uniforms of the Epsilon IX station crew in the opening scenes of that movie!
I'm currently engaged in a bitter battle to get a map based on this thread displayed in the net. My main opponents at the moment are Microsoft Winzip (which prefers to zip my pictures into nice solid monocolors - black, mostly) and a diskette that refuses to disgorge its contents. Expect results later this week - or hopefully at least before Christmas. 
Timo Saloniemi
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An Aussie Trek Narrator
I'll probably move the Breen closer to the Cardassians soon. Also, pay no attention to the cut-and-mispaste errors (the other Galorndon Core on the far right, etc). I'll try to clean those up, too. And I'll do a war map, too, although I predict it will be an unholy mess.
Timo Saloniemi
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Rated 7 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
Shouldn't the Great Barrier be more circular? I assume this is the ST5 Great Barrier, which was supposed to hold "God" in. The way it is on the map wouldn't do that very well. And, if it's supposed to be the other Great Barrier... that just surrounds the galaxy.
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"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000
I'm currently in the process of possibly opening up the top right side of the egg, based on new evidence I got from "Tin Man", though.And I'm also saying that the Great Barrier (of ST5 fame) is just a discontinuous anomaly between Earth and the galactic core, mistaken for an impassable obstacle by the ignorant 23rd century people. The false god was in my interpretation imprisoned within one cloud of this Barrier thing, not inside a sphere of such clouds. At least, the visuals of ST5 (the only good visuals in that movie, really) did not suggest an empty space around the prison planet, but seemed to show the clouds bellowing all around it and almost touching it.
So IMHO, the prison planet was inside the Great Barrier mostly by coincidence. The walls of the cell didn't consist of the barrier (which was bogus anyway, as Sybok proved by taking the Enterprise through it) but of some other mechanism built into the planet. Perhaps there weren't any walls at all, and the critter was imprisoned simply through the sad fact that it couldn't fly through space?
The main rationale for my choice of GB shape was that it has to separate Earth from the galactic core, as per the dialogue, yet it cannot be anywhere near the galactic core since it is far too distant for the travel times to work. Putting a compact little cloud sphere thingy somewhere between Earth and the core would have looked odd and not very barrierlike. A wall or chain of clouds could more easily be mistaken for a barrier.
Funnily enough, the Cygnus rift is a real-world "barrier" in that direction, although I believe it is a bit farther away. There are also several supernova bubble wavefronts in the general area; perhaps interference between these bubbles is what has created the GB?
Timo Saloniemi
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"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000
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An Aussie Trek Narrator
Klingons didn't seem to have any sort of intimate knowledge of the Breen, anyway. Worf even believed nobody had even seen a Breen outside his suit, even though Kira and Dukat most definitely did back in "Indiscretion". I'd say that the Feds were much better informed, since for example Eddington knew Breen nursery rhymes!
I put the Betreka Nebula between the Klingons and the Cardies for that little 18-year conflict of theirs. Never mind that the nebula is in formally UFP space - the incident apparently took place in 2333-51, judging by Bashir's "after 20 years of peace" comments, and back in 2333 the Klingons weren't very good buddies with the Feds (this was before "Yesterday's Enterprise" of 2344) and wouldn't necessarily have listened if the Feds told them to tone it down.
Timo Saloniemi
Andrew
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"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"
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An Aussie Trek Narrator
Romulans - mostly Beta Q
Cardassians - Alpha Q
Klingons - Some in Alpha and Beta Q's
Feds - Some in Alpha and Beta Q's
So thats how the placements should be initially set out.
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"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"
Also once the treaty was broken, rommies were attacking cardies border within a day so say 1 sector away?
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An Aussie Trek Narrator
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
Talking to people who watch DS9 (and maybe TNG), but don't read up on Star Trek, they got the impression that everyone is in the Alpha Quadrant. In fact, DS9 seemed to be quite specifi most of the time saying that it was the "Alpha Quadrant races" against the Dominion.
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"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer
You've also got the evidence from Voyager, where the Romulans stealing the Prometheus make a beeline towards the Beta Quadrant.
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I have been floated to this spot this hour
On a series of events
I cannot explain
--
Olivia Tremor Control
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Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Read, read, read, read, read me now.
If they started to reference the Beta Quadrant at great length suddenly, it would confuse a lot of people. At this point, wouldn't it be easier for them to just lump everyone in the AQ, and ignore two lines in a movie, and one line in an episode?
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"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer
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I have been floated to this spot this hour
On a series of events
I cannot explain
--
Olivia Tremor Control
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Read, read, read, read, read me now.
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"This is cooling, faster than I can..." Tori Amos "Cooling"
The map im doing with cardie space long ways parallal to A/B border has DS9 about 5 sectors off the line and a 150 ly fed inner perimeter (tip off the hat to TOS StarTrek Maps) + 50.3 ly to SB375 + 30 odd ly to DS9
DS9-Earth app. 230 ly
Prob similar dist. to Romulus and Q'onos.
I of course rotated my space 90 degree right to reflect diff between trek and real maps.
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An Aussie Trek Narrator
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"There's no such thing as overkill when it comes to killing."
-Gaseous Anomaly, December 11, 2000
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