Just for speculation's sake, could TMP have theoretically taken place in 2279? There was some dicussion on the TrekBBS about this, as it was pointed out that Decker said V'Ger was launched "more than 300 years ago." (The original Voyager probe was launched in 1977, so Voyager 6 could hardly have been launched before that...)
Anyway, was there ever any line in later shows that would make a 2279 TMP impossible or highly unlikely?
-MMoM Posted by The Red Admiral (Member # 602) on :
Decker's line could possibly be explained away by the fact that he was horribly wrong, or failed history at school, or he's just completely thick when it comes to dates and figures.
The fact is I doubt TMP took place much later than 2271, 72. Didn't Scotty say they'd be overhauling the Enteprise for 18 months? Yes, that doesn't necessarily mean 18 months directly after the end of TOS, but it gives us a reasonable indication. Secondly, the difference between the Enterprise and the crew, and their uniforms, between TMP and TWoK. It looks like a whole new bridge module was installed in that time as well, and another significant ship-wide refit. Assuming that TWoK did take place in the early 2280's I'd say there had to be a gap of at least a decade between the events of TMP and TWoK.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
It has been speculated that another 5 year mission occured after TMP.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Red Admiral: Secondly, the difference between the Enterprise and the crew, and their uniforms, between TMP and TWoK. It looks like a whole new bridge module was installed in that time as well, and another significant ship-wide refit.
Well, just to balance it, comparing TMP to the end of TOS, doesn't it look like significantly more than two years have passed?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
We can be more specific than 18 months. Decker says that Kirk hasn't logged "a single star-hour in two and a half years." Elsewhere Kirk says he spent "five years out there, dealing with unknowns." Though no one says "since your five year mission, which ended two and a half years ago," the film gives us very little wiggle room for any other interpretation.
Having said that, from just the evidence presented in the film itself, and assuming for some reason that Decker cannot possibly have overestimated how long ago Voyager 6 was launched, and taking the only two data points the film gives us (Voyager 6 being launched in the late 20th century, which means between 1977 and 2000, and it being launched over three hundred years ago, meaning, let us say, between 300 and 350 years.) We get a possible date which ranges between 2277 and 2350.
Of course, taking all the canon data into account, including that bit from Voyager about Kirk's famous mission ending in 2270, we have to conclude, or so it seems to me, that the film takes place sometime in 2272 or '73.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
There's certainly a lot of wiggle room there. And nothing definite about the date, but plenty of suggestive hints - both for an early TMP, and for a late one...
Arguments for an early TMP, 2272-73:
* 18 months of refit after 2270. * 2.5 years during which Kirk was not in space, yet he says he only spent five years out there (meaning TOS+TAS), not ten (meaning TOS, TAS and some unseen second mission). * ST3 suggests the Enterprise is twenty years old, which cannot refer to the actual christening of the ship back in the 2240s, and therefore probably should refer to the TMP refit - ergo, TMP has to take place as early as possible before ST3. * Uniforms change completely by ST2, and so do the looks of Kirk and Scotty.
Arguments for a late TMP, 2276-79:
* Kirk is a friggin' ADMIRAL! And Chief of SF Ops to boot. This must have taken some time. * Kirk could have been yanked to a desk job straight after TOS, and could have spent far more than 2.5 years in that job. "Logging a single star hour" might be something Kirk would still have a chance to do every now and then - just not in the past 2.5 years out of the 5-8 that have passed since TOS. * Pretty much everybody else has been promoted, too. Many have been promoted two steps. * And uniforms and facial wrinkles are just as different from their TOS looks as they are from the ST2 looks. * Klingons are very different from TOS, too... * And there are eleventeen hundred novel and comic book adventures that could better fit between TOS and TMP if the latter were moved to 2276 or beyond!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Captain... Mike (Member # 709) on :
Kirk's rear admiral has always been based on costuming notes of what his stripes were meant to mean, compared to more senior admirals. Chekov seems to have had some stripe changes through the film, or at least during some photography phases of production, as his absent/broken/full stripes get a little confused. Some other costuming oddities were Decker's beige jumpsuit and McCoy and Spock accidentally switching jackets with green-medical and orange-sciences armbands. Rand's rank is assumed to be a good promotion, even though yeoman was a position and her TOS rank was never established, but both seem to be before she made ensign, based on the TMP costuming and character materials of her CPO rank.
BTW, i think that saying that Kirk logged a star hour at some point in his years as an admiral is betraying the line's written intentions. That line was placed there as a story point, to establish that it had been almost two-and-a-half years since Kirk flew the E home.
So I gotta go with it being during 2272, past the middle of the year, based on that 2.5 line and the Voyager mission end date 2270.
And there are very few comic/novel deals that actually take place BETWEEN TOS and TMP..maybe youve forgotten this entails the E to be disassembled. So far, the only comics to tread there would be the second DC first series annual, which was about the end of the five year mission, and then the 75th issues of the second DC series, the end of the 'Star-Crossed' series that takes place as Admiral Kirk decidesto take the job at Ops because of crooked admirals mismanaging starship construction and refitting at skunkworks facilities. The novels that go here were designed to fill in a two year span, and there arent many.. 'The Lost Years' is about the immediately post TOS actions of the crew, followed chronologically by 'Traitor Winds.' 'A Flag Full of Stars' and 'Recovery' take place also, ending the Lost Years series and leaving definite open ends into the film, so theres not much to say these 6 stories wouldnt fit in 2 years. sorry.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Wow, total Trek info freak out. Groovy.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Chekov wasn't a full Lieutenant in TMP? My mistake, then. But Captain to Rear Admiral *is* a two-step promotion in a universe that features the rank of Commodore and even devotes a separate cuff-stripe code to it...
Hmm. I guess a post-TOS, pre-TMP novel is an ambiguous concept. But plenty of the apparent "TOS" books could take place between 2270s and 2276, thus spreading out the adventures a bit and making them more plausible. These just wouldn't be from the same timeline as those "Lost Years" books are.
Speaking of novel timelines, all the cool Diane Duane works seem to be post-TMP (even if the covers confusingly have TOS images), so there is an incentive to make TMP as early as possible to fit all those in...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Of course, according to Orson Welles, it's Lieutenant Commander Pavel Chekov.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Chekov was a full Lieutenant during TMP. Since there was no rank for Lt. JG, it wasn't a two-step-promotion.
There are a few promotion pictures, showing the crew with their old TOS ranks. Uhura has one solid stripe for Lt. and Chekov one broken stripe for Ensign.
Posted by Captain... Mike (Member # 709) on :
no lieutenant j.g.? sounds like ST:Mag rubbish to me.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Yes, it sounds stupid, but I think I have an explanation for this oddity.
The TMP rank system was nailed down by Jon Povill in a memo to Bob Fletcher:
We know that the rank of Lt. JG was used very very rarely during TOS. It is possible, that Povill assumed, that the rank did not exist, because he hasn't seen it in any TOS episode. Hence he left out the rank when writing this memo.
Even Mike Okuda forgot about the TOS Lt. JG rank in his encyclopedia.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
This scheme also lacks the rank of Commodore. And in ST2-5, there was no rank pin for Lt.Cmdr.
Yet it seems logical to assume that at least some of these ranks would exist despite this omission. Lt(jg) was present from ST2 onwards, and Lt.Cmdr from ST6 onwards. Both ranks had also been witnessed prior to the gap - "Lieutenant" Tormolen with the single broken strip, and Lt. Cmdrs Sulu and Uhura in TMP and McCoy et al in TOS with the broken/solid strip combination. So the brief absence of these rank markings shouldn't count as implied absence of rank. IMHO. AFAIC. YMMV.
Commodore is an iffier issue, since there's no obvious rank marking for that rank in any of the post-TOS Trek incarnations. Or, rather, in the later TOS movies the marking exists in memo form but is not seen on-screen, which is the opposite of the Lt.Cmdr and Lt(jg) cases. For all we know, this rank may indeed have disappeared from Starfleet after TOS. IMHO. AFAIC. YMMV.
Then again, what is the one-pip flag rank in TNG? And if there is none, then why is the pip system designed so that this obvious variant does not exist? The absence of a "3.5 pip" rank from the straight flush of line ranks is more understandable than the omission of the 1-pip flag rank. IMHO. AFAIC. YMMV.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by colin (Member # 217) on :
2270 5-year mission ends
tmp
2277u.s.s. bozeman ncc - 1841 vanishes
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:This scheme also lacks the rank of Commodore.
Yes, but we have the reference to Commodore Probert in TMP.
quote:And in ST2-5, there was no rank pin for Lt.Cmdr.
ST2-3. The Alien at Starfleet HQ in TVH was the first person with the Lt. Cmdr.-pin.
quote:So the brief absence of these rank markings shouldn't count as implied absence of rank.
Very true, but TMP is somewhat different, because it uses a stripe-rank-system. Ensigns in TMP wore one broken stripe (eg the Alien bridge officer) and Lieutenants one full stripe (eg Ilia, Chekov). So, no stripe-combination is left for Lt. JG.
quote:Or, rather, in the later TOS movies the marking exists in memo form but is not seen on-screen
At least 2 commodores were in the TVH Federation Council scene (the black cat and the Andorian with hair).
quote:Then again, what is the one-pip flag rank in TNG?
Well, since the TNG rank pips were clearly based on the USN rank stripes, I came up with this rank system for TNG Season 1:
If this is correct, we had two Commodores during TNG: Gregory Quinn and Mark Jameson. Since both were called "Admiral", I believe the rank was renamed from Commodore to Rear Admiral (lower half).
There's another indicaton for this renaming:
Admiral Quinn wanted to promote Picard from Captain to Admiral.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
To throw a few more monkey wrenches into the equation, there's the bottle of Romulan ale dated 2283 that McCoy gives Kirk in ST2, along with his line that "it takes this stuff a while to ferment." If this means that the bottle is a year or two (or more) older, then Voyager's 2270 date for the end of Kirk's mission can't be correct. If we assume that each season is roughly equivalent to a year, then we have to allow two years or so from "Space Seed" to the end of the five-year mission. However, the fifteen year gap between the episode and the movie, coupled with the date on the ale bottle, means that each year that the ale ages pushes the date of TMP that much further. A 2285 date for ST2, for example, gives "Space Seed" a 2270 date, the end of the mission 2272, and TMP either 2274 or 75, depending on how late in the year the mission ended.
On the other hand, a 2285 date for ST2 gives a 2279 date for TMP a couple of other problems. For one thing, it would require Chekov to go from lieutenant to full commander in six years or less, and Kirk to go from either captain or rear admiral (depending on whether or not his rank reduction was made permanent) to full admiral in the same space of time. That's a pretty good trick in either case.
Incidentally, Timo, the rank markings on Kirk's epaulet consisted of only one star, meaning his rank was Starfleet's equivalent of the US Navy's rear admiral (lower half). Where commodore fits into this mess is anybody's guess.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I'm all for the idea that the commodore-equivalent rank of TNG era is called "Admiral" of some sort (although I hope to dear Prophets that they drop the idea that "the lower half of the rear" is a dignified military term). I'm not sure if I buy your early TNG flag rank marker system quite yet, though... Perhaps the 1st season Admirals just plain didn't wear their rank insignia?
The Lt(jg) dilemma is no dilemma if we disregard the idea that one broken stripe would equal Ensign. It didn't in TOS, after all, and the TMP scheme follows TOS in all other known regards. It's not as if anybody wearing that broken stripe would ever have been addressed as Ensign, right?
Thanks for the Lt.Cmdr pin correction! I should have remembered that.
Umm... Where did you find pics of ST4 where you can discern a Commodore pin? Lemme see!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:I'm not sure if I buy your early TNG flag rank marker system quite yet, though... Perhaps the 1st season Admirals just plain didn't wear their rank insignia?
We had Quinn and Jameson with gold braid, Savar with gold braid and one pip, and Aaron with gold braid and two pips.
quote:It's not as if anybody wearing that broken stripe would ever have been addressed as Ensign, right?
Yes, exactly that happened. The Alien bridge officer with one broken braid was called "Ensign" by Uhura.
quote:Umm... Where did you find pics of ST4 where you can discern a Commodore pin? Lemme see!
Whoops, desperately trying to keep up with the responses:
Okay, so Uhura didn't notice one of her Ensigns had gotten a promotion when she was away... Big deal.
There were PIPS in "Conspiracy"? I gotta rewatch! I thought your scheme was based merely on postulating what wasn't exactly forbidden. But if it's actually built on on-screen evidence, then I'm an instant convert. It makes sense. Or at least more sense than most of the things related to TNG season one.
And to respond to what Woodside Kid wrote when I was typing away...
The round "15 years" reference could and IMHO should be taken to mean something between 15 and 17.5 years, which gives us a bit more leeway. "Space Seed" could go comfortably to 2268 or even 2267, then, and not contradict the 2283-plus dating of ST2.
Chekov's career seems to skyrocket, true, but I don't think Kirk ever got promoted past Rear Admiral. At least his pin on ST2-4 corresponds to the Rear Admiral rank as specified by Bob Fletcher - it just happens that the pins for all the other Admiral ranks look pretty much the same from afar.
And the single starburst on Kirk's shoulder in TMP could mean just about anything. Perhaps it's a generic symbol for SF Command (much like the similar symbol on the door of Kirk's executive shuttle)? A full Admiral might wear the exact same number of stars, except his sleeve would have more braid. We never got a large enough sample of TMP-era flag officers to tell one way or the other...
Personally, I don't like the idea of a 2279 TMP, given the visual differences between it and the later movies. And like said, 2277 ('78?) is when we already have proof of the ST2 uniforms being in use, in "Cause and Effect"... But mid-2270s are still a possibility. I'd prefer something equidistant from TOS and ST2.
Timo Saloniemi
[ August 05, 2002, 05:53: Message edited by: Timo ]
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Kirk to go from either captain or rear admiral to full admiral in the same space of time. That's a pretty good trick in either case.
But Kirk never got a promotion to full admiral. His rank insignia in TWOK was a Rear Admiral's pin.
quote:Incidentally, Timo, the rank markings on Kirk's epaulet consisted of only one star, meaning his rank was Starfleet's equivalent of the US Navy's rear admiral (lower half). Where commodore fits into this mess is anybody's guess.
Yet, his sleeve stripes indicated Rear Admiral (upper half). Commodores had probably 3 stripes on the epaulets.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
I don't buy the idea that Kirk's shoulder epaulets were some kind of generic admiralty symbol. Every other officer rank we saw in the film matched the sleeve markings to the epaulet markings; why make a difference for a person serving at HQ? After all, we dont do a similar thing to the rank insignia of officers assigned to the Pentagon.
My quibble as to where commodore fits in has to do with the fact that (when it existed), it was the lowest flag officer rank. If my surmise about Kirk being a one star admiral is correct, then where does that leave commodore rank?
Unfortunately, the rank structure in ALL the movies is screwed up. Lt. JG disappears in TMP, Lt. Commander is virtually gone as well, and I don't know what the hell Valeris is supposed to be in TUC (lietuenant? lt. commander? lt. jg? take your pick). And, speaking as an ex-NCO in the Air Force....WHERE THE HELL ARE THE ENLISTED FOLK????
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:My quibble as to where commodore fits in has to do with the fact that (when it existed), it was the lowest flag officer rank. If my surmise about Kirk being a one star admiral is correct, then where does that leave commodore rank?
Maybe Rear Admiral (with one star) was the lowest flag rank at this time and Commodore a combination between the rank and the position of a senior captain.
quote:And, speaking as an ex-NCO in the Air Force....WHERE THE HELL ARE THE ENLISTED FOLK????
TMP: All the people with blank shoulder tabs or triangles or squares on it.
ST2-7: All personnel in jumpsuits with black turtlenecks
TNG: Personnel without rank pins or with one hollow pip
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Woodside Kid: To throw a few more monkey wrenches into the equation, there's the bottle of Romulan ale dated 2283 that McCoy gives Kirk in ST2, along with his line that "it takes this stuff a while to ferment."
Why would a bottle of illegal Romulan ale (noted to be from accross the Nautral Zone) be labeled with an Earth date? "Gambit" and "Unification" clearly establish the Romulan exodus from Vulcan to have been about two thousand years ago... if Romulus orbits a type-G star and has a similar year-length to Earth, this fits pretty well for being a Romulan date. I think the bottle's vintage can be ignored for timelining purposes.
quote:Originally posted by Timo: The round "15 years" reference could and IMHO should be taken to mean something between 15 and 17.5 years, which gives us a bit more leeway. "Space Seed" could go comfortably to 2268 or even 2267, then, and not contradict the 2283-plus dating of ST2.
Well, we know that TWoK-TFF were probably all within one year of each other, despite Okuda's stretching in the Chronology. Certainly TVH is only three months after TSfS. While some time passed before TFF, the implication is that the Enterprise-A is still untried and untested, so anything more than a year would be pushing it. I believe a Starlog article quoted someone as saying TFF was supposed to be six months after TVH. Whatever. You get the point. Anyway, in TFF, Nimbus III is 20 years old. It couldn't have been founded before "Balance of Terror," which is within months of "Space Seed." So the relevant movies simultaneously take place 15 years after TOS Season One (by TWoK) and 20 years after TOS Season One (by TFF). We can ignore one or the other, or use those dates as upper and lower limits. I choose the latter.
Furthermore, we know that "Space Seed" can't be in 2267-68, if you accept that TOS occurred in roughly production order over several years. "Sarek" puts "Journey to Babel" in 2266-67, and "Trials and Tribble-ations" puts "The Trouble With Tribbles" in 2267-68. Since these two episodes are very close to each other, we can safely say that they both take place in 2267. Both are second season episodes, which means that "Space Seed," as an early first season episode, would have to be in 2265 or, more likely, 2266, unless one wants to compress time to ridiculous levels.
[ August 05, 2002, 07:38: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]
Posted by Captain... Mike (Member # 709) on :
even before the Okudachron became common, people still say that the '2283, it takes a while to ferment' line was a joke.. basically, its saying that the Romulan ale wasn't that old at all, because it is like drinking moonshine, and the date was really close to the presumed date of the movie. even if we push the date up further, to concur with the movies '23rd century' tagline, we still can't make that bottle very much older at all. people who are taking it too literally and getting huffy about the okuda date.. well, think about it. i think Diane Duane originated this hypothesis, back in the day before chronologies when fans and novelists still ran the history of Trek, and it made sense then too...
ok.. the whole board took a big facelift while i was typing this, by damn!
as to disappearing ranks: just because lt j.g. disappears for a while doesnt mean they eliminated it and brought it back. same with non-coms (i actually read the ST:Mag article where they theorize that non-com ranks were abolished for a few years, making O'Brien a lieutenant, then re-established causing him to be busted down. can anyone imagine the logistics of how stupid this would be for bookkeeping or morale purposes? to eliminate a whole rank for no reason?) *sigh* i dont support any of these nonsensical claims. TOS had juior grade, TMP had junior grade. we just didnt see it, or the way we saw it was inaccurate in some way...
BTW, i think that Commodore, which has been eliminated in the present, returns in the future as a position or honorary title (much like it was originated, created to show a captain in command of captains).. basically, a one star flag officer could either be a Rear Admiral or a Commodore.. it depends on what his assignment is. This would explain any post TMP commodores (or post TVH.. nice caps! :-) )..
BTW, i remember the Reeves, writing under the pen-name 'Bill Shatner' wrote a few paragraphs on how Commodore is a rare rank that is skipped by many officers in Starfleet by the TNG era in one of the newer Kirk books. so leaving it as a 'skippable' rank leaves it open to be used, and explains Kirk's non-use of it.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I've always had the view that Kirk's promotion was partially a Public Relations move on Starfleet's part. Yeah, it was a reward for Kirk's super-successful five-year mission (according to generally-accepted conjecture), but it was also probably some kind of "advertisement" or politically-related move. Depending on what kind of politics they had at that time, anyway. Kirk was something of a maverick -- is it possible that some high-up admiral might've tried to rein him in by giving him a desk job disguised as a promotion? I don't remember much about TMP, what was Nogura's attitude (did he even appear in the movie? I know he was in the book.) towards Kirk?
At any rate, it seems that Commodore is more of a field rank than a Command job. The Commodores were all either exalted starship captains or starbase commanders. If Kirk was vaulted into the Starfleet Command hierarchy, jumping a rank just might be possible. Especially when you also factor in the popularity mentioned above.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:TOS had juior grade, TMP had junior grade. we just didnt see it, or the way we saw it was inaccurate in some way...
The absence of the Lt. JG doesn't make sense and can not explained within the Trek Universe. It was a big mistake by Povill due to sloopy research about the TOS ranks.
BTW: What happened to the Forum logo? I liked the old one better.
Posted by Captain... Mike (Member # 709) on :
so thats two things i disagree on.
im prefectly content with there being unseen J.G.s all over the place, no explanation needed.
and the new logo is cool
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:im prefectly content with there being unseen J.G.s all over the place, no explanation needed.
But what rank insignia do they have, when a broken stripe is for Ensigns and a full stripe is for Lieutenants?
Posted by Captain... Mike (Member # 709) on :
i think the system has enough problems for us to disregard the broken stripe/no stripe inconsistency.. there are a number of explanations for it, and i always look to the way of reason to deal with costuming errors. basically, it doesnt make sense the way they did, so i assume there is a deeper explanation. just like how were they supposed to tell non-coms apart in TOS with no stripe ensigns? they did somehow, we just dont know. how are TNG petty officers differed from CPOs and the problematic 'warrant officer'? its a small detail that doesnt make sense unless you assume there is an explanation you just can't see.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Something like morse code perhaps? A long stripe with shorter ones?
Posted by Captain... Mike (Member # 709) on :
bingo.
while we realistically know that the costuming just didnt have a contingency for showing the difference in the ranks, and this wasn't their intention, this supposition would satisfy the larger requirement that the movie remain concurrent with the later (and earlier) trek/military universe. it explains the mistake, in a way that doesnt invalidate any of the supporting facts (unless we look really closely, but why should we..)
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:like how were they supposed to tell non-coms apart in TOS with no stripe ensigns?
Not at all. According to Gene Roddenberry all people in TOS were officers. However, now that we have NCOs in the later shows, this is kinda silly.
Posted by Captain... Mike (Member # 709) on :
and the problem now is that, retroactively, non-com ranks have been placed in the TOS era. as early as TMP, when publicity materials established Rand's rank of 'Chief Petty Officer' and as being a 'promotion' for her, when she returned to the fold of the Enterprise crew.
Roddenberry's offhand remark cannot be reconciled with onscreen evidence that Rand was indeed not an officer until after TMP, necessitating that she be non-commissioned during the original series. and i can hardly imagine some sort of radical services reorganization between 2270 at the end of the FYM and the movies that created dozen of new ranks and positions that never existed before.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
How true.
If we assume that NCOs existed during TOS, we'll have a problem with the stripe-less people. If we assume that NCOs didn't exist during TOS, we'll have a problem with Rand and the other shows.
Same goes for TMP.
If we assume Lt. JG existed during TMP, we'll have a problem with the rank insignia. If we assume Lt. JG didn't exist during TMP, it'll be very hard to explain it.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Spikey, I'm sure even you must agree that Roddenberry's little bit about there being no non-coms in Starfleet in the TOS era is complete and utter bull's excrement.
And, as to the ensign with the broken stripe in TMP, is this really any worse than Spock wearing a full commander's stripes and actually being a Lt. Cmdr. in the first season of TOS?
-MMoM Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:Spike, I'm sure even you must agree that Roddenberry's little bit about there being no non-coms in Starfleet in the TOS era is complete and utter bull's excrement.
That depends on the time you ask me.
In the 1960s it didn't cause any problems. In the here and now and considering the other shows, his statement is outdated.
Posted by capt ussintrepid (Member # 807) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: But what rank insignia do they have, when a broken stripe is for Ensigns and a full stripe is for Lieutenants?
Personally, I don't have a problem with this, since in TOS the broken stripe equalled Lt JG. Thus I'm quite happy to ignore any snafus in the costuming and assume it still stands for Lt JG, and no stripe is Ensign.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Or perhaps both Lieutenant grades had the same stripes.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Or then the color of the uniform in combination with the broken stripe was the decisive factor.
Ensign in current militaries is a rank you skim over, with a near-instant promotion to Lt(jg) unless you are utterly hopeless and unfit for duty. This wasn't true in Hornblower's navy, nor is it true in the TNG era. But if it was true in TOS, it would make sense for Ensign to be "Lt(jg)-in-waiting", and the two ranks could then well have near-identical markings. An Ensign would just have to wear his markings on an ugly "training uniform" which immediately revealed his lowly status, while a Lt(jg) would wear any of the normal uniforms.
Not that I'd believe any of that bull. IMHO, the "Ensign" in TMP had just recently been promoted, and Uhura just hadn't familiarized herself with the fact. Or then "N'synge" was the name of the Lieutenant. (Our local military has a charismatic public-relations Lt. Colonel whose surname translates as "Major", which means the average TV-watching Finn is either thoroughly educated in military ranks, or then thoroughly confused!).
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
His name means "major", and they promoted him to lieutenant colonel? Obviously, the Finnish military do not take their cue from Jospeh Heller...
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain... Mike: and the problem now is that, retroactively, non-com ranks have been placed in the TOS era. as early as TMP, when publicity materials established Rand's rank of 'Chief Petty Officer' and as being a 'promotion' for her, when she returned to the fold of the Enterprise crew.
Roddenberry's offhand remark cannot be reconciled with onscreen evidence that Rand was indeed not an officer until after TMP, necessitating that she be non-commissioned during the original series. and i can hardly imagine some sort of radical services reorganization between 2270 at the end of the FYM and the movies that created dozen of new ranks and positions that never existed before.
Not to mention that Roddenberry put Chief Petty Officer Garrison aboard Pike's Enterprise, set some sixteen years earlier.
Posted by Captain... Mike (Member # 709) on :
hey.. yeah
the man contradicted himself, making thisa moot point.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Yousa speaken like Jar Jar!
Posted by Captain... Mike (Member # 709) on :
Meesa space bar isbroke .. itrandomly no work!
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
quote:For one thing, it would require Chekov to go from lieutenant to full commander in six years or less
Isn't that roughly what Riker did, though? And Picard did better than that, come to think of it. . .
Posted by Matrix (Member # 376) on :
Wasn't he a Lt. then turned capatain after his capatain died or something? I am probably wrong.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Yep. That's what happened. In the Stargazer book series, he was the second officer of the ship. The captain was killed, the XO incapacitated, so he had to command the ship. He got the crew through a crisis, survived a mutiny, and was promoted to captain upon return to starbase and after an investigation.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Well, the question I have is, "was Picard REALLY a captain in rank or a captain in position?" I have a feeling it's the latter. Think about it: once again, the day is saved by LT Picard. After due investigation of the situation, it's decided to award Picard command of Stargazer due to his valorius service. With said command, he's promoted to minimum command rank for a line vessel, that being lieutenant commander. So now LCDR Picard has his ship & then has 22 years about the same ship to be successively promoted up the ranks.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik: With said command, he's promoted to minimum command rank for a line vessel, that being lieutenant commander.
Although what about the Lieutenant Junior Grade Captain of the Nebula-class Prometheus?
(Actually, thinking about it, what the "fuck" was going on with that ship anyway?)
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Maybe Seyetik's wife's alter egos were killing off the crewmembers, and she'd killed everyone in the chain of command down to that guy. But, since the projected alter egos weren't really there, no-one ever found the killer.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Tim, I like your way of thinking.
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
. . . which proves the axiom "there's always one." 8)
I likewise also believe that in theory Starfleet SHOULD have Captains-by-Position who aren't actually Captains-by-Rank. Unfortunately every small ship we've ever seen - various Saratogas, the Reliant, even Voyager, to name a few - have completely ignored this idea. Unless CbPs are allowed to wear the insignia of a CbR when confirmed in command (after all, Data didn't start wearing Captain's bars or even a Command uniform in "Gambit.")
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
No, but he did put on a red uniform in "Chain of Command", for some reason.
I also don't think that the Reliant counts as a "small" ship. It looked to be at least as equally well armed as the Enterprise. It just lacked a secondary hull.
The Grissom works better as a small ship, but that still has a captain by rank in charge. Even if he was useless.
In fact, the Nebula-Promethius is the only instance I can think of where a Captain of a ship hasn't held that rank. And that was a big ship.
(I know Tim was joking, but the worrying thing it that in TOS's time, that theory would have been perfectly plausable. Likely, even.)
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Don't forget Lt. Cmdr. Dax, who was captain of the Defiant for some time, or Lt. Cmdr. Data, commanding the Sutherland. And last but not least Cadet/Captain Watters of the Valiant.
quote:No, but he did put on a red uniform in "Chain of Command", for some reason.
Probably because Jellico was so formal. At least he ordered Troi to wear a standard uniform. Her normal uniforms were quite embarrassing. Anyone remember the scene in "The Ensigns of Command"? Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Actually, after I posted I did think that the earlier Saratoga and the Reliant could probably be discounted as small ships given Starfleet was a lot smaller back then. The Grissom is a far better example.
And Data wearing Command red in "CoC" isn't a valid example in my opinion - he was only doing so as First Officer, and had been confirmed as such by the Captain. Just like Riker only got a third pip in "BoBW II" after being promoted by Hansen. . . now THAT'S always been a major problem with me: forget all Riker's previous refusals of command, in this ep he is actually made a Captain; yet by the next one he's back as a Commander. Obviously he couldn't remain as captain of the Enterprise, but what happened to his rank? Did he give it up? Was it disallowed because Hansen didn't get the paperwork done before getting killed? Or was the promotion to Captain-by-Position only, allowing him to wear the fourth pip?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Me too. Even the dialogue at the end of BOBW pt 2 seems to indicate that he was going to keep it. And it was a field promotion, so I guess that Hansen wouldn't have to do paperwork to put it through. The idea would be to field promote in a war, so lots of paperwork would mess things up. The visual log should have been good enough.
Spock stayed a captain with Kirk as well. The differences being from an audience POV that Spock was also a science officer. Riker was essentially the other half of the command unit, and the subordinate. Putting him on the same rank as Picard would have mucked that up.
What's most strange it that the promotion occured in BOBW p2. If it had been in p1, you could argue that maybe they didn't know if Stewart would remain on the show, or whatever. But by p2, they knew that season 4 would be the same as season 3, so why promote him, and then secretly take it away again, with no explanation? It made no sense.
quote: Don't forget Lt. Cmdr. Dax, who was captain of the Defiant for some time, or Lt. Cmdr. Data, commanding the Sutherland. And last but not least Cadet/Captain Watters of the Valiant.
Those are all unique situations though. Data was put in command due to a lack of command officers, and it was a temporary sitation as well. Cadet Watters was also a fluke. And Dax wasn't really the captain of the Defiant, any more than Worf or Kira were when they took it out. The Defiant was never a "mobile" starship. It always operatred from a base. And even if you don't believe that, it was wartime, so again, you'd have lower ranks commanding ships to make up for deaths.
And in all those cases (apart form Watters), the captain was a Lt Commander, which is a long, long, LONG way away from a lietenant Junior Grade commanding a Nebula Class starship in peace time.
quote: Probably because Jellico was so formal. At least he ordered Troi to wear a standard uniform. Her normal uniforms were quite embarrassing. Anyone remember the scene in "The Ensigns of Command"?
True. For all the criticisms of Seven's skin tight outfit, Troi's really weren't much better. Or did she find them effective when she was fulfilling her psychiatric duties? Perhaps they relaxed the patient...
She also seemed to gain about 20 IQ points once they stuck her in a normal uniform.
What was the scene from The Ensigns Of Command though? And was it as bad as "What's a containment breach" in "Disaster?"
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I'd love to hear more about Troi-related "incidents", but I'm gonna comment on other stuff first.
We didn't really hear the Lt(jg) called "Captain" at any point, did we? He *could* have been the guy to whom the real captain yelled "Mr Pink, you have the bridge!" before dashing to de-fritz the tractor beam, or to valiantly chase down Seyetlik on another shuttle, or something.
Or the real captain could have been knocked down by Seyetlik in a scene remniscent of Spock's and McCoy's "You are NOT going in there!" stare-match...
The argument that we never saw any high-ranking officers aboard the ship is not sufficient to prove their nonexistence. After all, we didn't see that Lt(jg), either - not until we visited the bridge. There was no "dining at the captain's table" scene, because Sisko dined with Seyetlik. There was no "welcomed aboard by the captain" scene, either. In fact, the whole crew maintained their distance from Seyetlik and the DS9 heroes all the time - even when the ship was at port, *nobody* came to visit Quark's.
Perhaps the crew simply was under very strict orders of secrecy relating to this protomatter test?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Captain... Mike (Member # 709) on :
I think the Prometheus was not running on full complement for that mission. perhaps the ship was stripped down to store Seyetik's MassiveDevice��™, and was worthless except asa Device��™ carrying science ship with a skeleton crew. If there were few enough of them and the mission short enough, a Lt. would be the right choice to command.
BTW, according to Q, Picard was a lieutenant commander when he took the bridge of the Stargazer, not a lieutenant like somebody said. i also think its likely that, after the captain's death, Picard was promoted to full commander and given the captain position, and was promoted to captain somewherealnog that vessels mission (he commanded it for a VERY long time you know).
BTW, the original script for 'In Thy Image' before it was made into TMP featured a scene where Kirk and Nogura are communicating with the captain of a light cruiser about to be destroyed by V'Ger, the Aswan, who only held the rank of commander. The notes with the script indicates this is because it was a smaller vessel, & is a good sign that somebody knew how the navy worked (i'm thinking the writing might have been roddenberry's, not sure). The scene was rewritten to be the Epsilon-9 destruction, and the character remained a commander.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
The video game "Judgment Rites" had a Commander Gellman, in command of the science vessel Demeter.
I don't believe it, Troi couldn't have pulled a 'Camel-toe Annie'!!
It must be shadow or a 'fold' of material!
LOL!
Andrew
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Indeed, surely she was wearing underwear.
Or perhaps she was subconsciously saying that, this time, she really wanted the big black blob thing.
Posted by Colorful Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Ah... the convenience of lipreading.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
*Kills Cartman*
Posted by Colorful Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Silly boy.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
If she were wearing underwear, wouldn't it be noticeable?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I think I recall an interview with Blackman where he mentions that all the underwear is deigned to be smooth, so as not to show any bumps.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
In my ongoing trend of reanimating long-dead threads into a zombie-like half-life in an attempt to get people posting again...
We since know that the Lt., j.g., in command of the Prometheus was missing one solid pip -- either through wardrobe error or it falling off unnoticed as they were setting up to shoot the scene. He was supposed to be a Lt. Cmdr., and probably the ship's XO.
I also want to mention re: non-Captains in charge of things, that Sisko was a Commander when he took over DS9, as well as, later, the Defiant.
Kirk's backstory (never referenced onscreen) had him commanding a Destroyer before being promoted to Captain and being given the Enterprise.
What other revelations have popped up in the last few years...?
--Jonah
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
quote:We since know that the Lt., j.g., in command of the Prometheus was missing one solid pip -- either through wardrobe error or it falling off unnoticed as they were setting up to shoot the scene. He was supposed to be a Lt. Cmdr., and probably the ship's XO.
No, the reason why the Prometheus was commanded by a junior-grade lieutenant was because his authority couldn't override even the least senior member of DS9. Sloppy writing, which could at least have made a little sense had the guy been commanding an old ten-man-crew Oberth, not a state-of-the-art Nebula class ship.
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