GREAT GOOGILY-MOOGILY!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Are these the same images that appeared in the recent issue of the fan club magazine?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I could do without the "route of USS Enterprise A to the galactic core" though. Some things are best left alone.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
May the Lord smile upon Geoff Mandel, for He is Good.
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
Yeah, I'll echo Sol's statement. Opening the STV can of worms is not a good idea.
And the only other nitpick I can see is that on the galactic map the Hirogen network doesn't intersect Voyager's path in the Delta Quadrant.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
And what's with Betazed being less than ten lightyears from the Cardassian border? And the "Tzenkethi Coalition"? Did I miss the assignment of a formal name to them?
Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
Their government doesn't appear to have been given a formal name yet, at least not according to the Encyclopedia.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
*shrug* According to these, Kirk was bumming around the Great Barrier...which is about half the distance to the Delta quadrant...in the very first episode of TOS and got back to skirmishing with Romulans and Klingons in time for tea.
Those Voyager guys are wusses.
Posted by Captain-class, Mike-variant (Member # 709) on :
hmm.. the 'subspace highway' theory anyone? it would help the four days to Kronos, jaunt to Rigel problem from 'Broken Bow' too.
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Then why didn't Auntie Kate head for the nearest galactic route 66 onramp?
Must be a one-way traffic lane.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: And the "Tzenkethi Coalition"? Did I miss the assignment of a formal name to them?
The leader in the episode was "the Autarch," so I always call them the Tzenkethi Autocracy.
Posted by Captain-class, Mike-variant (Member # 709) on :
ha!
they didnt have a formal name before. they made it up for the book.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Looking through the images again, there's some...well, oddness. Classes O and P, for instance? And I was under the impression that fan speculation had the class N as the extra-watery type.
Lovely pictures, though. Too small to really come to any conclusions, I suppose.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
And who are the Hebitians?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
The First Hebitian civilization was one of the predecessors of the Cardassian Empire. Gul Madred discussed the archaeological treasures of Cardassia with Picard.
A few nitpicks I've found:
1. How can Bajor be the location of a starbase designated DEEP SPACE Nine, when it's less than 60 light-years away from Earth?
2. The Badlands are not in the Demilitarized Zone, contrary to multiple DS9 references, as well as "Caretaker."
3. The NX-01 has travelled more than a hundred light-years in a single year, in 2151... but the Cardassians, who are only 70 light-years from Earth, are an unknown power until the 2330's?
4. Either a nice detail or a major error: all six Borg transwarp hubs are marked on the galactic map, along with Unimatrix One. If Seven of Nine knew the locations of all six hubs all along, then why didn't she warn Janeway about them before they entered the locale?
5. I can't read this for certain, but just to the left of the Badlands, it looks like a label says "USS Equinox lost (2373)." But if Ransom and his gang were yanked into the DQ by the Caretaker... how the hell did the old geezer manage that two years after he died?
6. Soukara, a Cardassian planet in the Algira Sector. This was the episode that Dax and Worf went to in "Change of Heart" -- in a dinky little runabout. They ran the gauntlet past Cardassia Prime and into the center of Cardassian-held space in a damn RUNABOUT? A border planet I could understand... but 10 to 15 light-years? Sheesh...
Posted by Starship Millennium (Member # 822) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: 6. Soukara, a Cardassian planet in the Algira Sector. This was the episode that Dax and Worf went to in "Change of Heart" -- in a dinky little runabout. They ran the gauntlet past Cardassia Prime and into the center of Cardassian-held space in a damn RUNABOUT? A border planet I could understand... but 10 to 15 light-years? Sheesh...
Maybe it is a border planet... on the "north" side of the Cardassian Union. What we could really use in a reference work like this is a 3D CD-ROM. It's so hard to judge perspective in 2D. As far as the Deep Space problems... I think Starfleet just has a fetish for cool sounding names.
The DMZ looks a little weird to me too. Anyone have Admiral Nechayev's map from "Journey's End" handy? I know it's in the TNG ITM and Captain's Chair... is this still set for a release next month?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
It has been a long time since I have seen much of DS9, but that early civilization was more along the lines of the Babylonians or the Romans, wasn't it? A strictly historical period for Cardassia Prime. I don't recall it being said whether they came before or after spaceflight, even. They certainly wouldn't still have an empire. Unless, of course, I am missing some crucial piece of information.
Posted by Capped In Mic (Member # 709) on :
it was a brief reference, but i believe the parallel the episode was trying to draw was that the Hebitian artifacts were like Egyptian artifacts, i.e. the remnants of early Cardassian civilizations. there was certainly no reference to it being an offworld occupation, like the Klingons and the Hurq.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I'm afraid I'm to blame for the DMZ weirdness - Mandel borrowed the shape of the Cardassian space from the map I mangled out of Chris R�hl's material. The DMZ was something that only concerned Sisko in a select few episodes, brought him against Fleet people he never saw before or after, and didn't show up in the maps that depicted the space between Bajor and Cardassia. So I sort of truncated it half a sector away from Bajor.
I'd have been happier with a different arrangement, but IMHO the relative position and size of the Badlands had to correspond to the DS9 TM map at least roughly. Hiding in there wouldn't be that much of a problem for the Maquis, really, if we assume their ships were in the runabout performance ballpark. We already have to give the runabouts pretty long legs, to allow Sisko and pals to visit so many star systems.
By squinting hard, I can make myself see the Equinox disappearance date as 2370, although it does look more like 2373. Bummer. I can read the lines for the Equinox, Voyager, Tian An Men and Denver, but what ship was lost below the words "Bajor Sector"?
Nice to see that the UFP-explored space has lots of discontinuities, separate charted oases connected with thin lines, and so forth. Also nice that the more distant part of the Cardassian-UFP border only becomes well-defined and clear-cut in 2370, and part of it still isn't as of 2377... I like fuzzy logic.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
What possible use can the Badlands be as a strategic base for the Maquis, though, when many of their planets are on the opposite side of Cardassian space? How are they supposed to get there? Why not somewhere like that Hugora Nebula, which has the advantage of being on the Federation side of the zone (Starfleet being the friendlier of the two parties, and thus easier to spoof and avoid) and is much closer.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Well, Badlands can be reached from the "north" half of the DMZ by flying across the "gulf" of the Bajor sector. And that sector is Maquis-sympathetic wilderness, with the semi-friendly Feds the only authoritarian presence, and a weak one at that. Also, DS9 immediately becomes a logical center for gunrunning when Maquis assets are distributed on both sides of it.
Also, historically one would expect the belt of UFP colonies to continue from the top left end of the DMZ towards "northwest", since this is where the border apparently formerly ran. While no DMZ is shown along that section of the belt, it would still provide friendly access for the colonists from the DMZ to the Badlands and beyond. In fact, this stretch of the belt would be the safest staging area for the militant Maquis, completely outside the reach of the Cardassians.
Of course, were a map to be devised with direct access from the DMZ to the Badlands, things would be simpler. And a closer look at the map we saw in "For the Cause" in fact shows that the DMZ does run along the UFP/Cardassian border all the way to the Badlands. It just becomes a heck of a lot thinner when it passes between Bajor and Cardassia... Which may be why it doesn't show up on Mandel's map! There would be no Maquis planets on that narrow section of the Zone, but there might be a safe passage for them there. So just reinterpret that yellow dotted line as part of the DMZ and not just as another "regular" border...
Timo Saloniemi
[ September 10, 2002, 04:04: Message edited by: Timo ]
Posted by DoughBoy (Member # 804) on :
Attn Timo I think thats the U.S.S. Honshu getting blown up on is way to SB 621 with Dukat and Sisko aboard just below the "Bajor Sector" sign.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Well, the title "Hebitian Empire" is darker than the others, which might indicate that this once was the Hebitian Empire. If so, perhaps these maps will show ancient Tkon and Iconian territories?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
A little nit I have (something I noticed whilst watching "The Price" TNG the other day). When LafOrge and Data realize they're in the Delta Quadrant, and not the Gamma Quadrant, they say something like: "We're not in the Gamma Quadrant. We're 200 lightyears from where we should be...in the Delta Quadrant."
Which means, if the Ferengi pod didn't have warp drive (which it might have), the planet they crashed on would have to be about 200 lightyears from the Gamma Quadrant and so would part of Voyager's course to the AQ.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
That's true... if I wanted to acknowledge one of the most horrifying examples of sheer idiocy represented by the Voyager crew -- rivaled only the unmentionable "Spirit Folk." Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Indeed. Then again, perhaps Data was saying "We are not only no longer in Kansas, we are 200 ly away from where MY calculations (which put us in the Delta quadrant) indicated we would end up being." To which LaForge is too daft to answer "Hey, waitaminit, what calculations? You *knew* we were going to end up in the middle of the *wrong* nowhere?"
Seriously, I guess Data could have analyzed the original Barzan data and determined that their probe in fact ended up in the Delta quadrant after all. And the shuttlepods also ended up in Delta, but 200 ly away from the probe's destination. Which was enough to prove to Data that his analysis was the correct one, and the wormhole wasn't stable.
Two further potential mistakes I spotted: the locations of "For the Cause" (the Holor nebula and the Bajoran colony) don't correspond to the wall map seen in the episode. That map placed the colony planet to the right of DS9, in the immediate vicinity (which makes sense since the travel times were mere hours for Kasidy's old freighter).
Also, the planet Togra in the middle of Cardassian space is probably a reference to the world from "The Ship", yet that world supposedly was on the other side of the wormhole. But of course there could also be a Cardassian world of the same name.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: Which means, if the Ferengi pod didn't have warp drive (which it might have), the planet they crashed on would have to be about 200 lightyears from the Gamma Quadrant and so would part of Voyager's course to the AQ.
And the significance of this is - considering that we have no idea where in the Gamma Quadrant the Bajoran wormhole terminates - what exactly?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The significance is that the map does not seem to reflect such a close approach to the Delta/Gamma border by Voyager.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:3. The NX-01 has travelled more than a hundred light-years in a single year, in 2151... but the Cardassians, who are only 70 light-years from Earth, are an unknown power until the 2330's?
Interesting, cause I also see Trill (Trillius Prime) is right near Bajor and The Cardassian Union. Mayweather had BEEN to Trill.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Naah. Mayweather had been to Trillius Prime. The connection with Trill is yet to be established anywhere outside this work.
I suspect the Cardassians were a known quantity in Kirk's time already. They just didn't happen to be all that aggressive at the time. And Kirk had plenty of less ugly races to visit.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
This is the whole problem with them trying to do these type of maps - something I've come to terms with a long time ago. There is TOO little information to create any cohesive map. You can't do a very successful 2D map - it has to be 3D.
Everyone ends up having the races SO close together that the idea of Kirk and Picard actually doing any exploring is nullified and that all the Feds are doing is scraping themselves over every inch of near-space.
The real, and believable idea would be that these 'governments' can't be displayed with nice thick boarders. There are dots (stars) and like that 'squares' game - when you get a number of close stars, you can fill in the gaps and call it 'your space'. When you get further away from your central area of space you get less and less claimed space between each point. These interstellar areas end up becoming too hard to consistantly patrol and end up becoming neutral territory. Yeah you might have another star-system in a about 2 ly that-away, but this system is a dot that is more or less by itself, until that 'government' can build/establish itself in greater numbers around that area.
This creates lots of dots with a 'nucleus' of dots. And these governments are more often than not irregular in shape (well... as much shape as you can get from a group of dots).
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
You can easily interpret the continuous regions of color as a collection of separate dots, though. Just because a region of map is blue doesn't mean that a starship has visited every cubic lightyear there. It merely means that the region is within reach of UFP starships, and that the said ships have flown past, or visited some of the nearby systems - or then just that the UFP has annexed this space by treaty without necessarily visiting it. If warp speeds are Okudaic or nearly so, it is no wonder nobody visited, say, Pollux before Kirk, even if they visited the more distant Trill or Pacifica.
And the 2D map can readily be taken to "be" 3D. Not all the stars shown are supposed to be in the exact same plane or anything. And the seemingly "straight and simple" borders of empires are just what you get when you sum up all the 3D meanderings into a 2D profile...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
I know this is a really old thread, but (Timo) did Mandel ever mention specific coords for the systems represented on the various charts? He did a good job in keeping the 'extraneous' systems represented on each chart, so i feel that he must have a 'master' coords list. _________________________________________________________ As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way. - Jack Handey
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Hey, I finally saw a copy the other day, while I was at Borders. Looks nice. I mean, as a physical object.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Revanche, the coordinates for the real stars in the Alpha/Beta quadrants were originally taken from the data available at www.stdimension.de. Chris R�hl made a 2D map out of that data, and I stole the map and redid the "national borders" on it. Mandel then stole this modified version of the map, which covered all the Alpha and Beta pages of the book. No need for a coordinate database any more when the dots were already in place. (The map at that point was a simple jpeg image without any layered structure to it. I'd set the distances by counting individual pixels...)
When adding stars and judging distances, we simply referred back to Christian's original data, which is in the easy-to-read cartesian coordinate format. I doubt Mandel really invented Z coordinates for the stars he made up, though. But he did add about as many real stars as there were originally.
The stars in the Gamma and Delta sections of the book are of course quite fictional. Save perhaps for some "highlight" phenomena that weren't mentioned in the show but are known features of our galaxy. Their rough locations can be found in just about any astronomy textbook nowadays. Or in a very nice map appendix to National Geographic.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
Wow, I really had no idea it was so grounded on a fan-based foundation. I appreciate the backstory. Thanks for the link to the site; I'll poke around. _________________________________________________________ Most of the time it was probably real bad being stuck down in a dungeon. But some days, when there was a bad storm outside, you'd look out your little window and think, "Boy, I'm glad I'm not out in that." - Jack Handey
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Rather than starting a new thread for such a minor announcement, I figured I'd put it here. Anyway, on February 4, they're having one of those online chat thingies with Mr. Mandel and the TNG Companion author guy. At 2:00 PM PST.
The only question I have is "How come you left out some confirmed Federation worlds in your list while making others up?" But it is a question so geeky and lame that to voice it would lead to my well-deserved drowning.
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
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