Has it ever been mentioned when the Federation had first contact with the cardassians? What year, what starship, what people, what circumstances?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
No.
We know that Picard had contact with them while aboard the Stargazer. We know that the Federation in general has been at conflict with them while O'Brien was aboard the Rutlege.
It's also been implied that they've had contact with the Cardies for most of the time that they had occupied Bajor. So, we're talking about the two powers having been in contact for at least 30 - 40 years when DS9 started.
This is all IIRC, by the way.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Sorry... double post.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
And some Cardassian poet was on exile on Vulcan in the 22nd century, if that counts.
Posted by THOR (Member # 887) on :
Harry; where did we learn that?
[/ignorance]
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I think Dax mentioned one of her previous hosts knowing an exiled Cardassian poet in... "Playing God", was it?
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
I think it's likely that the Cardassians are known/will be known in Enterprise's time, but didn't really turn into intergalactic dicks until a century and a half later.
Posted by Dukhat (Member # 341) on :
Actually, I think it would be very interesting to see 2150's-era pacifist Cardassians in Enterprise. However, I'm pretty sure TPTB would have forgotten that Cardassians are supposed to be peaceful & non-militaristic at this time, so it's probably best that we don't see them.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ryan McReynolds: I think it's likely that the Cardassians are known/will be known in Enterprise's time, but didn't really turn into intergalactic dicks until a century and a half later.
Oh god no.
*flings himself into the protein resequencer, gets turned into a pair of boots for Capt. "Slap me down" Archer, and in turn flings the Captain out of the nearest airlock*
Anyone wonder how the whole Cardassian conflict came to being? I'm baffled by the apparently large amounts of trouble the Cardassian presented the Federation, when it's pretty clear who's the greater power.
My personal pet theory is that the Cardassians were discovered rather late, say after TMP era (this makes sense canonically).
The Federation, typical in her pride and arrogance, chose to ignore signs that the Cardassians are neighbors to watch out for. Just another species in the happy galactic neighborhood, she thought. The Cardassians, for their part, did not outwardly provoke the Federation, though they were intrigued by both the dangers this newly discovered empire presents, and rewards.
Meanwhile, the Federation started to haphazardly setup colonies near the borders of the new found ruthlessly paranoid expansionists. This wouldn't have been much of a problem, if Starfleet had responded by building up her presence in the area at a rate sufficient to protect those many colonies. However, judging by what happened to Federation colonies during the war, Starfleet probably took her time deploying units, setting up command-and-control and logistical support to the area.
Whether this would have been a political decision, on the account that the Federation council doesn't want to worry the Cardassians, or simple scarcity of Starfleet assets, is unknown. Whatever it was, the Cardassians preceived a weakness in their neighbor's front yard (and at the same time, might have also feared Federation expansion near them), waited for the right moment, and acted on it. We all know that Cardassians exploit the weak without a second thought (remember Bajor), and Federation looked it.
Because of the unbalanced levels of preparation of both side for war, Cardassian's initial assault would have swamped and neutralized what limited mobile and support assets Starfleet had in the area. Starfleet would have been pushed back into a more established part of Federation space, where the line was more defensible. The Cardassians then dug into their newly conquered territory, and waited for a response they think might not come, or at least a response they can handle. They also raided Federation colonies they haven't conquered, to keep Starfleet off balance.
The result was that Starfleet had to fight her way back into Federation's own space, with the enemy deeply entrenched (it would explain those Federation ships running into Cardassian mines from the war while inside Federation space during TNG). The Fleet, hampered by undeveloped logistical support in that area of the Federation, was kept from bringing her full weight down upon the Cardassians. The Cardassians, realizing the Federation in fact had a lot more teeth than they did, became reluctant to prolong the conflict.
After reaching something of a stand-off, with most Federation colonies recovered, and the Fleet ready to cross into Cardassian space, both side sued for peace, and got it. The Federation, appalled by the loses suffered during the war, both civilian and Starfleet, became deeply hateful of the Cardassians, but at the same time turned off by the idea of another war with them (rather like US and PRC after Korea). The Cardassians, humiliated by the defeat at the hands of the vastly superior might of Federation, begin plotting for a new conflict, one they would win, now that they better understood what they were up against (the incident with the Pheonix and Maxwell).
Like I always said, we should have gone to Cardassia during the first war. Them spoonheads are totally untrustworthy, as the Dominion War proved.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
"we"?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I've always figured that the Federation met the Cardassians just AFTER the Cardies got to Bajor. Or at least, after the Cardassians were on the planet but before they turned into the actual Occupation.
Consider that the Federation basically treated the Bajor issue as an "internal affair" of Cardassia before 2369. I'm sure the issue would be a bit more complex, but it's likely that one of the main reasons for the Federation ignoring the Bajoran problem is that when they first met the Cardassians, their "official borders" already included Bajor.
I would really, REALLY not like to see Cardassians on ENT. I do remember that throwaway line about the exiled Cardassian poet (might've been referenced by Garak?) on Vulcan in the 22nd century. However, it's possible that that exile decided to go away... far, far away? It would make sense, because the very idea of an exiled poet implies a military state that tries to control art and expression -- which is exactly what the TNG/DS9-era empire was.
Another idea: I believe Dukat made some mention in "Defiant" about the Cardassian system of government -- the division between the Central Command and the Obsidian Order -- had been in place for 500 years.
On the other hand, the recent preview shots from the Star Charts books say that Cardassia is only about 60-65 light-years away from Earth, meaning that it's eminently possible for the NX-01 to run into them. *shudder*
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I've been in favor some Cardassians showing up on Enterprise from the beginning. But no one listens. (Or cares.)
As for who was running Cardassia at the time, that Cardassian poet was exiled by the "First Republic," which certainly sounds like a distinct entity from the military junta running the world in the 24th century. Gul Madred's description of his childhood suggests (admittedly without making it explicit) that the Central Command came to power within his lifetime.
And as to why the Federation didn't rush in to rescue Bajor, who is to say they didn't? The DS9 tech manual, at a very brief glance, suggests that the war was fought about a decade or so after Bajor was occupied. Before that, everything we know about the Bajorans suggests they were reclusive and unconcerned with anything offworld. And considering the fact that they didn't have (or, at least, chose not to pursue) subspace technologies, the Prime Directive may have been in effect. The Bajorans would be unable to ask for Federation help even if they wanted to. The only people around to explain the situation would be the Cardassians, and surely they were eager to let people know about their purely humanitarian mission to Bajor.
The Bajorans claim that it was their covert action against the Cardassians that led to their withdrawl, while the Cardassians suggest Bajor was simply too expensive to maintain. There's room enough in there for the Federation to have made the suggestion, as a condition of their peace treaty, that it would be a very good idea for the Cardassians to leave the planet.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Responding to MinutiaeMan, there's certainly nothing that says a Central Command for the military didn't exist before it took over effective control of the whole Cardassian Union (with the Detapa Council remaining concurrently as a powerless civilian body, if I'm remembering a throwaway line from s2 DS9 correctly).
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
There have actually been two references to the age of the Cardassian governmental system, but I'll be darned if I can dig them out. One said 500 years, the other said 800 years. Both probably refer to the existence of a triumvirate of powers - Central Command, Detapa, Obsidian Order. 800 yrs might be the earliest appearance of the system, 500 years the time it was transformed into what old-school Cardassians thought was the ideal form, and Gul Madred's youth was when the balance of power shifted.
Then again, we don't know when Madred was young. Dukat certainly didn't appear physically much younger in the "Wrongs Darker" flashbacks. Perhaps Cardassians tend to live for centuries?
It appears the Detapa was still rather powerful during the Cardassian withdrawal, since it was more or less blamed for the act by Dukat in "Cardassians", IIRC. Elements of Central Command in turn blamed Dukat for caving in, as stated in "The Maquis". I gather the defeat in the Federation war somewhat diminished Central Command's influence and gave Detapa enough power to force the pullback from Bajor.
I think both a post-Occupation first contact and one that takes place prior to or during ENT could work well dramatically. And I definitely would like to see Cardassians of a different mental setup in ENT. They need not be utter pacifists or pre-triumvirate Hebitians or anything, as long as there is SOME difference. And make them wear the silly "The Wounded" uniforms or something to accentuate the difference!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Tom: Season 3.
I think the conversation went something like this:
Dukat: In theory, central command and the obsidian order are suppossed to report to the Detapa council. In practise, everyone pretty much just looks after themselves.
Sisko: That doesn't seem very efficient.
Dukat: It's functioned for more than five centuries.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
From "Defiant":
GUL DUKAT
I've spoken to a few... friends in the Central Command. The Obsidian Order isn't giving them any answers either.
SISKO
The Order has to answer to someone, don't they?
GUL DUKAT
In theory, they answer to the political authority of the Detapa Council just as the military does. In practice... we both run our own affairs.
SISKO
Not the most efficient system.
GUL DUKAT
It's worked for over five centuries.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I was fairly close considering I haven't seen that episode for a couple of years. Give me a cookie.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Mint M & M?
When a non-Human species gives an amount of time, such as 5 centuries, how is that measured? Is the thinking that they are converting over to something the Federation would use, or is that a local time, or is it considered that all life bearing planets have roughly the same time scale in tearms of years??
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Unless a specific mention of alien timekeeping systems is made, I usually assume that the years (like the language) have been translated into ones we are familiar with.
Posted by Nimpim (Member # 205) on :
Timo: "Central Command in turn blamed Dukat for caving in"