Could anyone please scan the ST2-6 ranks chart from the second edition of the Encyclopedia? I wanna make a page about the different erroneous rank systems.
[ February 02, 2003, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Well, if no-one's done it by tonight, I'll do it. I knew having my own scanner would be a goodness. 8)
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on :
That's a neat chart. You should add another column that includes a screen cap of someone with the particular rank to show which pin style is the correct one.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
blue = 100% correct red = terribly wrong
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, I see absolutely no reason not to accept Okuda's Fleet Captain and CPO 2nd Class pins into the system, even if they are "conjectural." After all, we know those ranks exist, so they've got to have pins---regardless of whether Fletcher designed ones for them or not---and these fit logically into the system.
-MMoM Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
The Chart is available here. Sorry about the quality, it's bloody difficult scanning from a hardcover book with thin, slightly-transparent pages.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Spike: (OT and nitpicky) On my old PC with 16-bit colors, your scrollbars kind of disappear into blackness. Just a thought.
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
Would you also be interested in the set from Starfleet Dynamics? Officers only but an interesting mix of correct (gets Lieutenant Commander right, which is rare) and the original (the various admiral pins).
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Thanks Vogon Poet. That's good enough.
quote:Would you also be interested in the set from Starfleet Dynamics?
Yes, sure.
quote:Well, I see absolutely no reason not to accept Okuda's Fleet Captain and CPO 2nd Class pins into the system
Okuda just made them up. That's reason enough for me. Moreover, MCPO 2nd class is just silly IMO.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
BTW, there was another chart in the DC comics Whos Who published in 86 i think from their first series of Trek comics.. once i dig it up ill report on it
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
It's a 31kb GIF. I'll probably take it down in a few weeks so if anyone wants it, grab it now.
And apologies to Treknophyle for walking all over your copyright.
The one other thing worth noting is that the Octagonal pin (Petty Officer in Fletcher's scheme) is given as a "Line/Staff Pin" with the notes "Worn on the rear of the Shoulder Departmental Stripe on Class A and B uniforms, and on the right sleeve of Class C uniforms. Silver and gold denotes a staff officer, gold denotes a line officer." Class A are the uniforms worn by the officers in the movies, Class B are the cadet/enlisted jumpsuits and Class C are the field jackets, medical, engineering, etc. uniforms. (This is slightly simplified but gives the general gist.)
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Thanks Identity Crisis. When was Starfleet Dynamics published?
quote:Worn on the rear of the Shoulder Departmental Stripe on Class A and B uniforms
That's the Security Clearance Device.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Sorry to interject my oh-so-humble opinion once again, but (intending no offense to our illustrious Treknophyle) why would you include a scheme from a fandom publication not even licensed or approved in any way by any authority owning or licensing Star Trek?
Fandom ≠ non-canon
-MMoM Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
Just found the FASA version, will scan and post shortly...
quote:Originally posted by Spike: Thanks Identity Crisis. When was Starfleet Dynamics published?
quote:Worn on the rear of the Shoulder Departmental Stripe on Class A and B uniforms
That's the Security Clearance Device.
It's drawn nearly identical to to Fletcher PO pin. (Striped portions are at the 45° sides, not the straight up/down left/right sides). But I think that the real pin in that position was square, wasn't it?
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
I wrote it in '91 (I think) - but it was published more than once. YOu proobably have the '93 version.
Don't worry about the copyright - outtakes SHOULD be shared.
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
Not very good quality, small picture and FASA's print quality are to blame (plus my antique scanner).
Oh, and FASA are the one of the few sources I know of for TOS (proper 2260s TOS, none of this movie stuff) enlisted insignia. Anyone interested?
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
quote:Originally posted by Treknophyle: I wrote it in '91 (I think) - but it was published more than once. YOu proobably have the '93 version.
Yeah, I think so.
quote:Don't worry about the copyright - outtakes SHOULD be shared.
Thank you, a noble attitude.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:why would you include a scheme from a fandom publication not even licensed or approved in any way by any authority owning or licensing Star Trek?
Because it's a comparison between the real scheme and schemes other people made up. Official or Fandom doesn't matter.
quote:Very much! Where does that photo come?
It's from a ST Collectibles book.
quote:But I think that the real pin in that position was square, wasn't it?
Nope, it was round.
Posted by Identity Crisis (Member # 67) on :
Well, we know FASA was used a bit as a reference in early TNG. Were Data's medals seen earlier? I'm thinking of 'Measure of a Man', maybe...
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
The medals are certainly shown in "Measure of a Man," though I can't remember them being in "The Most Toys."
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
When Geordi and Wesley are doing an inventory of Data's posessions. Also seen is the holographic disc of Tasha, and a few other mementos.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
you know, after he 'died' and everyone thought he was 'dead' and they were going through his stuff. pretty heavy stuff, Data dying. quite sad.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
One of those 'medals' is just a communicator up-side-down!
And what is that funky curvy Starfleet symbol in the top right... SORTA looks like the Red Squad symbol.
Oh and shouldn't Able Seaman now be Able Spaceman?
AND - I was watching an Entertainment Tonight special on Star Trek Nemesis - and they pulled out all their old Trek stories. There was one there with Bob Fletcher about the uniforms and how he created a book or a booklet for Fans on all the rank insignia used in STII-IV (who did the costumes for V and VI)
Also how were ranks displayed in TMP years? Was that on the cuff again?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:who did the costumes for V and VI
Nilo Rodis-Jamero (TFF) and Dodie Shepard (TUC).
quote:Also how were ranks displayed in TMP years? Was that on the cuff again?
Yes. Some uniforms had shoulder tabs instead of cuff stripes.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
contrary to the reference, i was under the impression that the rank Seaman or Able Seaman was just referred to as 'Crewman' (with 'Able Crewman' possibly being the longform) in Trek.. Simon Tarses was referred to as Crewman, and I even think I caught a 'Crewman First (or Second) Class' in VGR somewhere.. "Good Shepard" or "Equinox" (although the latter might have just been in the novelization, my memory of the actuall episodes == muy hazy).
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
I've never read the novelisation of "Equinox" and yet I also have a recollection of crewmen of either first or second class, so. . .
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
I'm fairly sure that was in the Equinox novelisation.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Tarses referred to himself as Crewman Third Class. I am elephantine!
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
No, he said Crewman First Class.
When was the FASA scheme published?
[ January 22, 2003, 15:58: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
Oh, yeah, BTW, something unrelated to the rank chart, but Spike might want to take into consideration for the uniform guides: I noticed that, in Nemesis, the trouser-cuffs (pants-cuffs to Americans) had returned to those weird triangular cut-outs that weren't on the original FC-late DS9 variants. . .
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
Didn't "Starship Down" have a bunch of enlisted folks?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
this cap shows the Chief from 'Valiant', the only non-O'Brien noncom insignia i recall seeing (all other TNG-DS9-VGR era noncoms have blank collars, unless anyone spotted insignia i missed.
odd also: was she a CPO trainee (!?) wearing the yellow and gray cadet uniform?
BTW, i found the DC comic (Who's Who in Star Trek #2, Apr 1987) with the movie era rank chart (on topic! yay!).. its a mess, Spike let me try and scan it next week
it shows
Ensign - the correct ensign pin
Ensign First Class (!) - the ensign pin with pointy tops rather than flat-top
Junior Lieutenant - the correct Lt JG pin
Lieutenant - the correct Lt pin
Lieutenant Commander - correct Valeris LCDR pin
Commander - correct pin
Captain - correct pin
Fleet Captain - Captain pin variant with a solid center (rather than 3 bars) and curves rather than angles leading to the top/ bottom decorations (the FASA commodore pin)
Commodore - the correct Fletcher commodore pin
Rear Admiral - triangle center pointing down with three evenly spaced arrowheads pointing in (similar to an upside down version of the Dynamics VADM pin
Vice-Admiral - same arrangement with a chevron in the center rather than the RADM triangle
Admiral - Same as FASA's admiral pin
and heres a costuming page which mentions a lot of the issues we are dealing with here, albeit with poor spelling and grammar: http://www.startrekuniformguide.com/moviesii.html Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
That's funny. FASA's commodore pin became DC's fleet captain pin and Johnson's commodore pin became Okuda's fleet captain pin.
EDIT:
Just remembered that Marvel's Early Voyages Comics also used a crazy rank scheme.
[ January 27, 2003, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: Spike ]
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
digging through comics.. i'm sure that in the post 1984 DC comics where they used these uniforms there were plenty of erroneous (or simply odd) insignia.. i'll start flipping pages..
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: blue = 100% correct red = terribly wrong
Personally, I feel Fletcher got it wrong, since he made up ranks for no apparent rationale, and instead use the real world US Navy rank system. So Blue = completely in accord with what an ignorant costumer made up, Red = not fully in accord, due to other ignorant people making up their own systems. Darkwing
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Fletcher made pins for ranks that have existed since navies existed. What's irrational about that? Am I missing something?
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike: contrary to the reference, i was under the impression that the rank Seaman or Able Seaman was just referred to as 'Crewman' (with 'Able Crewman' possibly being the longform) in Trek.. Simon Tarses was referred to as Crewman, and I even think I caught a 'Crewman First (or Second) Class' in VGR somewhere.. "Good Shepard" or "Equinox" (although the latter might have just been in the novelization, my memory of the actuall episodes == muy hazy).
Able Seaman is a Merchant Marine rank, indicating a sailor with some skills, as opposed to an Ordinary Seaman. Seaman, Seaman Apprentice, and Seaman Recruit are the comparable US Navy ranks. In comparison, an Able Spacer ought to be a junior civilian space-crew member, and a Spacer would be a junior military crewmember, although Paramount seems to prefer Crewman for the equivalent of a Seaman, and, based on Tarses' first-class comment, perhaps also for petty officers. Then, too, back in WWII, an E-3 was a Seamn first-class, so maybe not.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
AFAIK Able Seaman is the Royal Navy equivalent of a USN Crewman. Other navies (Canada, Ireland, Australia) also use this rank. So, I don't think your criticism is justified.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Fletcher made pins for ranks that have existed since navies existed. What's irrational about that? Am I missing something?
No, he didn't do any research when he whipped up those insignia ( and no, I'm not suggesting he should use the butterbar, silver, railroad tracks, oak leaves, eagles, stars, crows, chevrons, and anchors from today. But he could have used a more consistent mix of terms). Let me know if the following is enough or if you still have questions.
E-1 Seaman Recruit (Able Seaman is a merchant marine rank) E-2 Seaman Apprentice E-3 Seaman E-4 Petty Officer third-class E-5 P.O. second-class E-6 P.O. first-class E-7 Chief Petty Officer E-8 Senior CPO E-9 Master CPO (notice no MCPO 2nd class or any other fictitious deriviative thereof?)
W-1 (unused in Navy, used in other services) Warrant Officer W-2 - W-5 Chief Warrant Officer
O-1 Ensign (please note, there is no such thing as an ensign j.g or ensign first class, and there never was) aka ENS O-2 Lieutenant junior grade aka LT j.g. O-3 Lieutenant aka LT O-4 Lieutenant Commander aka LCDR O-5 Commander aka CDR O-6 Captain aka CPT Fleet Captain has ben referred to onscreen (Pike), but it's unclear if that's a rank or billet. I think of it as Starfleet's version of today's usage of commodore) O-7 Rear Admiral Lower half (nee commodore) aka RADM O-8 RADM upper half O-9 Vice Admiral aka VADM 0-10 Admiral (Chief of Naval operations/ CNO) ADM
Check this site out for a graphic display. It's old, so does not include the new rank of W-5.
QM2 D.W. Ewing, USN (that's E-5 Quartermaster, as in enlisted navigation specialist. The naval usage precedes the army's misuse of the term to indicate a supply clerk).
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: AFAIK Able Seaman is the Royal Navy equivalent of a USN Crewman. Other navies (Canada, Ireland, Australia) also use this rank. So, I don't think your criticism is justified.
first, just a minor point. The term crewman is only used in Trek, AFAIK. I have never heard it in the real world. next, yes, the RN uses able and ordinary ratings, but Roddenberry based the rank structure on the US Navy, not the RN. It's kinda shoddy to use one for enlisted and the other for the Os. Oh, and the Aussie and Brit sailors I've met didn't use the "able" or "ordinary" qualifiers, instead identifying themselves by rate and rank, such as Boatswain's Mate seaman (BMSN) or just seaman, rather than saying Ablebodied or Ordinary Seaman Smythe. Last, that still doesn't address the created ranks of "ensign 1st class" or "MCPO 2nd class".
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darkwing: It's kinda shoddy to use one for enlisted and the other for the Os.
Why? If, when the Earth governments got together and became one, they decided that, for instance, the US Officer system was best and the British Enlisted system was best, why shouldn't they combine the two? If not only for practical reasons (the US enlisted system has far too many grades IMHO) then for political reasons. Or do you think that when Earth united the US government just said "you are all going to have to adapt to what we do", and everyone else agreed? Neither of these is likely, IMO.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
quote:first, just a minor point. The term crewman is only used in Trek, AFAIK. I have never heard it in the real world.
Sorry, I meant Seaman.
quote:Last, that still doesn't address the created ranks of "ensign 1st class" or "MCPO 2nd class".
You can't blame Fletcher for these ranks. He didn't create this bullshit.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike:
quote:Last, that still doesn't address the created ranks of "ensign 1st class" or "MCPO 2nd class".
You can't blame Fletcher for these ranks. He didn't create this bullshit. [/QB]
I'm sorry, I got the impression from your initial post that Fletcher created these ranks. So, all he did was create the insignia for a rank system he was given, then? Or am I still misunderstanding? And at whose doorstep can we lay that messy system?
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Fletcher's scheme for enlisted men is: Master Chief Petty Officer Senior Chief Petty Officer Chief Petty Officer Petty Officer 1st class Petty Officer 2nd class Able Seaman
Ensign 1st class was created by DC and MCPO 2nd class by Doug Drexler.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix:
quote:Originally posted by Darkwing: It's kinda shoddy to use one for enlisted and the other for the Os.
Why? If, when the Earth governments got together and became one, they decided that, for instance, the US Officer system was best and the British Enlisted system was best, why shouldn't they combine the two? If not only for practical reasons (the US enlisted system has far too many grades IMHO) then for political reasons. Or do you think that when Earth united the US government just said "you are all going to have to adapt to what we do", and everyone else agreed? Neither of these is likely, IMO.
Mixing systems gets messy and confusing. Also, the modern ranks were adopted in order to be familiar to the viewers, and since it was an American show, it was very America-centric. In reality, by the time we get to that era, we'll probably have a totally different set of names for the ranks. Using that, however, risks alienating lazy viewers who don't want to have to translate everything. "Frak" is okay, since f**k can't be used on tv, but "millicentons" make the viewers scratch their heads and change channels.
But if you really want to do it, go all the way. Don't use all of one component and all of another for the other component. Mix it all up, like Battlestar Galactica, and make the viewers learn your new system, instead of using an extant one.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: Fletcher's scheme for enlisted men is: Master Chief Petty Officer Senior Chief Petty Officer Chief Petty Officer Petty Officer 1st class Petty Officer 2nd class Able Seaman
Ensign 1st class was created by DC and MCPO 2nd class by Doug Drexler.
Thanks, I misread the chart then. I still don't care for the able seaman bit, as I don't like mixing systems, but the rest isn't so far out there then.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by Darkwing: Mixing systems gets messy and confusing.
Yet again I am forced to ask: Why? When Starfleet was created they presumably started over from scratch. They would have asked themselves what was the best way to do a certain thing, not said "One of the countries on Earth uses this system, so we must use it or else". If the person drawing up rank charts thought that the British enlisted system was better, he would have used it.
And frankly, arguments to do with how easy it is for viewers to work out the ranks are irrelevant. I, at least, am trying to analyse Trek as a reality, not a TV show. That is why things like the Melbourne are problems to me. I can't say "they made a mistake". I have to think of a reason for it that fits into the Trek reality.
Posted by Darkwing (Member # 834) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix:
quote:Originally posted by Darkwing: Mixing systems gets messy and confusing.
Yet again I am forced to ask: Why? When Starfleet was created they presumably started over from scratch. They would have asked themselves what was the best way to do a certain thing, not said "One of the countries on Earth uses this system, so we must use it or else". If the person drawing up rank charts thought that the British enlisted system was better, he would have used it.
And frankly, arguments to do with how easy it is for viewers to work out the ranks are irrelevant. I, at least, am trying to analyse Trek as a reality, not a TV show. That is why things like the Melbourne are problems to me. I can't say "they made a mistake". I have to think of a reason for it that fits into the Trek reality.
It's not a reality, and you'll save yourself a lot of trouble if you ask about the real reason before looking for the story reason. I only look for a story reason if the real reason isn't good enough. After all, Paramount still refuses to give a story reason for the change in the Klingons and Romulans. The real reason was more money for makeup, and theft of Romulan background when it was necessary to reconstruct Klingons as something other than 1984/USSR/Mongol empire. That doesn't satisfy me, but Paramount will never explain it other than to claim it was always that way; they just didn't have the budget to show it before.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
If I wanted to save myself a lot of trouble, would I really bother posting at all? I could be a normal fan, who is content to take it all as it comes, and just think "oooh a pretty ship" whenever the Prometheus flies by, but I don't want to. I want to analyse Trek. I want the Trek universe to be believable to me. I don't want to think "oh well the Melbourne appears as 2 different classes, but i don't care", I want to come up with a reason for it. If you don't want to do that, fine, but don't blame me for wanting to.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
It seems to me that the Earth Starfleet grew out of the United Nations Space Navy (or Space Force, or Spacey, or whatever the smeg). What rank scheme does the UN employ (being as I don't feel like going to their web site right now to hunt down the answer).?
--Jonah
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Well, I'd say we now have an RL example for a rank mix:
Officer ranks follow the USN scheme with the exception of Commodore. Moreover, they use different Seaman ranks.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Is there any chance that the UESPA has anything to so with possibly forming from the UN as their space agency? I know that UESPA was a fubar from TOS, and that UESPA was carried on to Friendship One...or is this something best be left avoided?
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Uhhh, you DO know that that "UN Rank Structure" is utter bullshit made up for Macross, right?
The present-day United Nations has no military or paramilitary forces assigned to it or comprising any form of standing unit. A pity, though...because it should.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Is there any chance that the UESPA has anything to so with possibly forming from the UN as their space agency? I know that UESPA was a fubar from TOS, and that UESPA was carried on to Friendship One...or is this something best be left avoided?
Probably that last one. Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
excellent
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Without scanning through this post or the other post Im not sure which one this was brought up in, but I just saw "Someone to Watch Over Me" and I am fairly sure that Chakotay has actual Lt. Commander pips on his dress uniform.
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Does anyone have the Federation Reference Series? I've heard there's yet another rank scheme in it.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
Unfortunately, I've got no way to scan it, but this is basically what it has:
Fleet Admiral - Six-pointed star with hexagonal core.
Admiral - Essentially the admiral pin from the movies.
Vice Admiral - No pin.
Rear Admiral - Vertical ellipse with points at 90 degree locations. One thick band over one thin band in the center.
Commodore - Toughest one to describe. Start with the captain's pin and eliminate the straight vertical lines on either side. Elongate the lower angled sides and connect them directly to their counterparts on top. One thick band in the center.
Captain - Essentially the correct movie pin.
Commander - Essentially the correct movie pin.
Lt. Commander - Hollow, downward-pointing triangle with one horizontal band in center.
Lieutenant - Essentially the correct movie pin.
Lt. J.G. - No pin.
Ensign - Bottom half of lieutenant pin.
The list has no enlisted rank insignia. The details of each insignia are nowhere near as intricate as the modern examples. Given the publication date (1985), it's not surprising.
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