Other than Earth and Vulcan (and their colonies) what other species were members of the Federation in TOS?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on April 06, 2003 11:47 AM:
The Tellerites and the Andorians were really the only ones identified by name in "Journey to Babel" not to mention several others which were unnamed onscreen. We can also assume that not long after that episode the Coridans were admitted to the Federation, as well, so theres at least 3 identified for ya.
By TMP we see many more...Deltans (presumably) and a number in the screening room of the ent-nil [refit], so add those in and that at least that sums up the TOS alien members.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on April 06, 2003 05:24 PM:
Here's my list of (possible) Federation members from TOS.
(This is from my new webpage.. hasn't gone live yet, and probably won't go live anytime soon. But it has better search functions than the old list).
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on April 06, 2003 07:26 PM:
Maybe the Troyans - who were blue-skinned and supposedly cousins of the Andorians.
What about the Denoublians?
Caitians?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on April 06, 2003 09:12 PM:
Some of the Rigel aliens are probably members as well.
Another possible member are the Halkans, from "Mirror, Mirror", but I have never seen that episode, so I can't really judge it.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on April 07, 2003 04:07 AM:
No, the "Mirror Mirror" aliens were not UFP members. They were an independent world with which the Federation was negotiating for mining rights. (Can't recall for sure exactly what it was they wanted to mine...might've been dilithium.)
-MMoM Posted by switchbladeNGC (Member # 983) on April 07, 2003 06:44 AM:
After thinking about it more, this should be in the "Enterprise" section, due to where I was trying to go with it. I don't know how to move it so I started a new thread there.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on April 07, 2003 09:41 AM:
After thinking about it, I decided that this thread belongs here and thus locked the one in the ENT forum. Posted by switchbladeNGC (Member # 983) on April 07, 2003 09:44 AM:
Ok.
We should probably see some of these species on Enterprise in at least the next few seasons shouldn't we? (I think the Federation will be founded in the next 10 years Enterprise time)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on April 07, 2003 10:58 AM:
Personally, unless an actor not wearing any makeup is explicitly said to be an alien, I tend to count them as just being human, because a multiplicity of identical aliens bothers me on an aesthetic level. (This is is regards to all those people from "Journey to Babel.")
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on April 07, 2003 11:27 AM:
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Personally, unless an actor not wearing any makeup is explicitly said to be an alien, I tend to count them as just being human, because a multiplicity of identical aliens bothers me on an aesthetic level. (This is is regards to all those people from "Journey to Babel.")
Well, unfortunately, that's not what was intended by the TOS production staff. TOS (and, in some instances, the other series as well) is full of aliens that look exactly like humans.
It's almost a sure bet that those JtB extras were supposed to represent delegates from various UFP member worlds. IIRC it seemed as if the top Starfleet officers aboard the Enterprise (namely Kirk and company) were acting as Earth's representatives in the matter.
-MMoM Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on April 07, 2003 11:32 AM:
There's no reason to assume that they are aliens, however, because there are plenty of people who were supposed to be humans over the course of the show who had no attention drawn to that fact. So they're just as likely to be one as the other. I also didn't get a vibe that Kirk had any role in the conference itself, other than taxi.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on April 07, 2003 03:52 PM:
So you are saying that all of the humans we saw in all of those "Earth parallel" stories and such, specifically: "miri", "piece of the action", "return of the archons", "patterns of force", "omega glory", "bread and circuses" -- were indeed humans, and not in fact, the result of a low budget responsible for a nearly 40 year old debate that really screwed up the scheme of things with regards to what we should and shouldn't be assuming is human??
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on April 07, 2003 04:15 PM:
That isn't what I said. In the specific case of "Journey to Babel," there is little reason to assume that apparent humans aren't actual humans, since absolutely nothing is said about them. We know that the number of support staff onboard outweighed the number of actual delegates by a fair amount, so there's plenty of space for human aides to run around in. Uh, numerically speaking.
This is hardly a show-defining moment, anyway.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on April 07, 2003 07:13 PM:
Another member - Garth of Izar - was he Izarian or something?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on April 07, 2003 09:32 PM:
...two for tuesday double post...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on April 07, 2003 09:33 PM:
Fleet Captain Garth was a human and it was never explained where the Izar became incorporated into the story (according to the Encyclopedia). He was badly injured and was able to recover with help of the inhabitants of Antos IV who also taugh him the art of cellular metamorphosis. None the less, he was still human, a mentally insane one for that matter, so I'm not sure how the impression that Izar is a Federation world. For that matter it could easily be a colony or another case similar to the "Zephram Cochrane of Alpha Centari" who wasnt/isnt from Alpha Centari.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on April 07, 2003 10:16 PM:
Wasn't Izar the site of some battle or other that he was famous for winning? I may have that completely wrong or it was from a fan source or something but it makes as much sense as anything.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on April 07, 2003 10:45 PM:
Garth of Izar is famous for the Battle of/at Axanar (I forget which).
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on April 07, 2003 11:06 PM:
Ah, yeah, that was it. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on April 08, 2003 01:34 AM:
Well, if he's human, and he's "of Izar", the easiest presumption is that there's a Terran colony in orbit of Epsilon Boötis.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on April 08, 2003 06:57 AM:
Ah yes, the infamous "booty planet"!
Its just identified as "the historic victory at Axanar in the 2250's that helped preserve the Federation"...
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on April 08, 2003 10:20 AM:
Aha, right. There was also some allusions to the fact that the winning of this battle enabled Kirk and Spock to be in the same service on the same ship working together. I think fandom has a big story on this, something about Axanar and the Vulcans threatening to secede from the UFP or something.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on April 08, 2003 05:01 PM:
Yeah that episode ("Whom Gods Destroy") really screwed with things by introducing a lot of unexplained events and left a lot of BIG unanswered questions.
1) The above incident that Topher mentioned.
2) The ultimate bunker buster...the incident at Tau Ceti where the Enterprise used the "Cochrane deceleration maneuver" to defeat the Romulans.
Which the encyclopedia suggests might be the incident in "Balance of Terror", if so then this may explain how far Earth is from the Neutral Zone as Tau Ceti is 8 l/y (!!!) from Earth.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on April 09, 2003 01:16 AM:
I thought we had a big ole thread here a while back where we worked out that Zephram Cochrane could easily be from Alpha Centauri?
Basically - pre-warp ships were around before 2063 and a few colonies had been set up - or maybe just Alpha Centauri...
Cochrane was caught on Earth when WWIII approached.
There maybe have been the beginnings of Mars colonies - but I think that was later wasn't it?
How would Zee have made money from a Warp Drive? Quicker times between Earth and it's colony(ies)!
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on April 09, 2003 06:38 AM:
Just a quick reminder from TOS canon.
There are indeed several planets peopled by humans. They were transplanted by 'The Preservers'.
This probably explains Miri's Planet, Bread & Circuses, etc.
It does not explain species which look a lot like us but have extraordinary capabilities. Such as Plato's Stepchildren.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on April 09, 2003 11:19 AM:
Though in that specific instant the magic powers were caused by a compound found on the planet, and wasn't something the people were born with.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on April 09, 2003 11:22 AM:
Come to think of it, Miri's planet was a complete duplicate of Earth, so I doubt that humans got there simply by aliens having scooped up some out of the way village one night. Some serious engineering was involved there.
Though Spock seemed to think it was perfectly natural.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on April 10, 2003 02:04 AM:
Hodgkin's Law of Parallel Development or something like that he says...
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on April 10, 2003 04:53 AM:
Hodgkins' Law of Parallel Planet Development: Sociological theory postulating that similar planets with similar populations and similiar environments will evolve in similar ways ("Bread and Circuses"}
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on April 10, 2003 06:01 AM:
It happens a lot.....Roman-like planets, planets with Yanks and Coms....you get used to it afterawhile Posted by newark (Member # 888) on April 10, 2003 08:08 AM:
According to "Terra Nova", there were no worlds within 20 ly of Earth which were suitable for colonization. The implication was that a colony at Alpha Centauri had to have a world terraformed before humans could establish a colony.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on April 10, 2003 03:13 PM:
I dunno, Mars was colonized in like 2103 or something....so obviously the technology was there to colonize Alpha Centuari
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on April 10, 2003 04:06 PM:
Not necessarily, as AC would require warp supply lines while Mars could do with sublight ones. Not to mention that very different physical conditions could exist on Mars and Alpha Centauri Roman-numeral, and thus different technological challenges would emerge.
But technology isn't likely to be the key issue in Trek colonization. We see "primitive" colonies or habitable outposts persisting everywhere in the TOS era, from the harsh Rigel XII to lush mainstream class M worlds to Elba II. Perhaps Mars was colonized out of a sense of pride, even when easy class M pickings were available - failing to do Mars would be an embarrassment for the whole Sol system!
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on April 10, 2003 09:45 PM:
Failing to do Mars?? HEY! Mars ain't no slut!
Alpha Centauri doesn't have to be habitable... they could have taken equipment to set up pressure-dome colonies! Remember there was that old Earth settlement in TNG ep "Masterpiece Society" that was domed. And there was another episode with a domed habitat - was it "The Ensigns of Command?"
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on April 11, 2003 08:40 AM:
I reckon that Enterprise could pull off some of those 'aliens' from JtB...
Those pink-skinned people could be updated by Westmore. You could do a lot of things... maybe the pink could be translated on the 'better film quality' as being more transparent skin - or something.
Also the tall guys with the large robes from that episode - I just thought about this the otherday... anyone think they are like Clancy Brown's character from "Desert Crossing"?
Posted by SoundEffect (Member # 926) on April 12, 2003 07:48 AM:
Advanced terraforming wasn't employed on Mars even into the 24th Century. We get to see a Mars vista in a Holodeck recreation of the red planet on Voyager. You can see the isolation domes in the distance. So Mars isn't Class M, even by Voyager's time.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on April 12, 2003 03:53 PM:
There are large settlements on Mars - you can see the lights in "Relativity" - but yeah - I reckon that they left Mars in it's natural state. Maybe they found life there?
So again - what is wrong with having Alpha Centauri a colony? Even an orbiting one? Or a domed one?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on April 13, 2003 12:14 AM:
We never said we had a problem with that
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on April 22, 2003 10:07 AM:
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Here's my list of (possible) Federation members from TOS.
(This is from my new webpage.. hasn't gone live yet, and probably won't go live anytime soon. But it has better search functions than the old list).
Nice work Harry!!
Journey To Babel #1. Aisr (Aliens in striped robes) #2. Air'aoe (Aliens in robes, art on edges) #3. Devoians (Whip it, whip it good) #4. Ba'Dhardey (Hair looks like a cartoon) #5. Rawuph (Robed alien with ugly pointy hats) #6. J'Wit (Just what is that?)
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