What are your opinions on the "V'ger + Decker = Borg" theory?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Impossible. Someone, explain why.
Mark
Posted by Gloom (Member # 1052) on :
It's very seldom you hear someone say "impossible" about a theory concerning a fictional event. Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Haven't we talked about the Borg enough the last few weeks?
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
Hmmm, we've passed the thousand member mark by quite a wide margin haven't we. I should pay attention around here more.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
So, for the newbies:
1) Decker + V'Ger = 2273-78 or so. Borg = scourge of the galaxy since time immemorable, but at least a millennium prior to ST:TMP. If the newborn Borg could time travel extensively, then why don't the Borg we know regularly do so?
2) Decker was supposed to give V'Ger a goal in life, a set of emotions and ambitions. The Borg seem to lack such a goal, beyond "wanting to become perfect". The Borg suppress emotions, V'Ger yearned for those.
3) V'Ger biotech was way more advanced than that of the Borg. Its Drones looked way better. V'Ger assimilation tech also far outperformed that of the Borg. The merging of man and machine seemed to lead to a "spiritual" form of existence, not to a clumsy cyborg.
So the Borg are a causality nightmare if they are supposed to have been sired by V'Ger... And it's basically equally difficult to argue for the "Voyager 6 + Borg = V'Ger" theory, without evoking lots of time travel and nonlinear advancement.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
Actually, it has been speculated by Gene Roddenberry himself that Voyager 6 met the Borg first. The Borg probably gave it some nifty upgrades, then sent it on its way back home.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
"Nifty upgrades". That was mighty generous of them! Kind of like those benevolently pedantic people that clean other people's desks when they're not looking or do the dishes when they're at a party. The same people that, if computer-savvy, Defrags and Scandisks your computer while you're in the bathroom.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
...And then proceed to overclock your CPU and then run AdAware and then tweak your OS services and install the newest drivers and then delete your pr0n collection and then reconfigure your firewall and then update your virusscanner and then reformat your other harddrive and then download MSN v666 and then increase your display resolution and then CHANGE YOUR DESKTOP BACKGROUND DAMMIT!
Oh, how I hate those people.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Then stop using 800 x 600 and join the real world.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
ptet
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yah... I think after Voyager and Enterprise... we've got enough going on with "How the Borg became aware of Humanity" without throwing V'ger into the mix. And, as has been pointed out already, V'ger certainly couldn't have sired the Borg. They're way older than that.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
Why would the Borg have even bothered with Voyager 6? The collective's not notable for its benevolence, and given the probe's tech level, it would have been about as useful to a starfaring civilization as training wheels on a fish.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Unless the Borg were feeling nice that century. IF they gave V'Ger upgrades, they didn't have such things as transwarp technology.
Perhaps it's the other way around - IMO, V'Ger could've kicked any cube's ass.
Mark
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: V'Ger could've kicked any cube's ass.
Mark
I agree... V'Ger would have just zapped it up into its data-banks. V'Ger had learnt all there is to know - the only thing it was lacking was the 'human element' to go beyond the bounds of the universe... sounds like a proto-Q thing to me.
EDIT: Andrew, I think you were looking to make it like this, no? -Tahna
[ June 12, 2003, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: Saltah'na ]
Posted by Proteus (Member # 212) on :
I think the whole first contact sphere paradox is good enough for me.
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
I can understand why you might pose this question. But I don't think that there is a connection between V'ger/Decker and the Borg.
Remember that for some unfathomable reason the V'ger/Decker hybrid became a shimmering light like the non-caporeal Medusans, Companion, or Organians at the end of TMP. So I guess they were trying to convey that it became a "higher form" of life that was pure energy. You know how they loved to have "advanced" alien species who had no bodies in the orignal series. Ewww physical bodies, how base and primitive.
"Eww the body, I have no time for your flatulents and orgasms."
Robin Williams as King of the Moon in The Adventures of Baron Munchausen
I don't think Spock meant that the next step in our evolution was an organic/computer hybrid like the Borg.
Also, V'ger, because it was improved by the planet populated by living machines, also had the prejudice that carbon-based units (life as we know it) are not true lifeforms, so I don't think it would be interested in joining with its creator to create a cybernetic being.
The Borg, IMHO, are a really a twisted spin on the Bynars and are really about the angst some people feel about the inhumanizing effects of prosthetics and computer technology on human beings. The original species who began the Borg did it to themselves.
Its the same lame question "Is a human being with prosthetic parts still a human being? Or is this person starting to lose his soul/humanity and become a cold and heartless machine? How much flesh do we need to lose before we are no longer human and become cold and calculating?" A theme I think that was already beaten to death by the Roger Korby character in the TOS episode "What Are Little Girls Made Of." (An idea that I do not subscribe to by the way.)
V'ger would probably have reduced the Borg it encountered to "data patterns" and then go on its merry way.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Borg = Cyberman. With a budget.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Borg are less expensive to kill.
Besides, the philosiphies don't match. Cybermen have eliminated all the organics from their bodies to be more efficient but retained their indivuality and emotions. And some of them were quite mean.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
EDIT: Andrew, I think you were looking to make it like this, no? -Tahna
Thanks Tahna - I can't even remember what I did! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If you'd just take your meds, you would'nt have that problem. Posted by Revanche (Member # 953) on :
quote:Originally posted by Saltah'na: Actually, it has been speculated by Gene Roddenberry himself that Voyager 6 met the Borg first.
I believe that the original attribution of the Borg and GR was that Voy6 may have met the species that spawned (?) the Borg, i.e. a machine intelligence.
IOW, can anyone speculate as how to disprove this? Maybe the Borg and V'Ger are related as off-shoot cousins.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Borg are less expensive to kill.
Besides, the philosiphies don't match. Cybermen have eliminated all the organics from their bodies to be more efficient but retained their indivuality and emotions. And some of them were quite mean.
True. But I recall there was the implication that they started off as human, and then replaced more and more of the organic with machine, until eventually there was nothing human(oid) left. So they are just further along the chain than the Borg.
And they seemed to vary in how individual they were. Usually depending on whether there was a "boss" Cyberman standing around.
As for the above theory, it could be disproved by the fact that the Borg never originated from a machine intelligence. They were humanoids who became machines.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"Organic" and "machine" are such blunt terms...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The first Borg may well have been sentient machines that assimilated orgainic organisms as raw material during a time of rescourse scarcity. tHe Borg Queen's comment of "We used to be just like the," (referring to humans)could mean this as well as meaning that Borg started out organic.
Cybermen's indivualality may have been over-ridden by their commander whenever he was in a certain proximity as a control element. Makes sense: who needs a "Commander Shelby" Cyberman?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I know it's an older thread, but I've been out of the loop for a while and am getting caught up.
First of all, V'Ger and the living machines that beefed it up couldn't have had anything to do with the Borg, as V'Ger and the living machines (is it me, or is that a good name for a techno group?) didn't regard carbon units as true life forms. As the Borg originated as organic life-forms before permanently grafting themselves to the machine, they would have known carbon units are actual life forms and not a pesky infestation.
Second, I hate how the Borg have been treated ever since "Q Who?". Consistency, what? They took a cool premise and flushed it. Worse, they flushed it with no regard to continuity.
And last (for this post), Cybermen = Cylons.
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Actually Cybermen were far far tougher than Cylons.
I think the Borg were great....right up untill they introduced the Queen. Suddenly a instoppable alien threat that defied human emotional responses or errors made from emotions is controlled by this drama-queen? I would have LOVED the idea if they has simply said she was a federation captain assimilated to replace Loqutus. That way Picard would be torn about killing her and the Borg would have remained scary. I won't even get into he petty comedy that was Voyager's queen..... Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
AWWWWWW! Don't remind me. Too late.
Well the beginning of the end started with "I, Borg", the coffin was fashioned in "Descent", and the final nail was driven home in "Star Trek: First Contact." Voyager just beat the dead body.
Although I love Alice Krige's performance, the Borg Queen idea is so... un-Borg-like. I thought it was better to think of them like the Denevan neural parasites. Each Borg was like a cell of a much larger being. Oh well, lose a drone here and there. No big deal. To the Borg it's like losing skin cells or a single hair. Lose a cube, well that smarts a bit, but we'll soon get over it. We will soon assimilate replacements.
By the way, I think that they need to have Alice Krige come back to "Star Trek". Not as the Borg Queen, but as another character. I think that she would make a great Romulan. Although whenever I see her, I think of the bedroom scene in the high-rise apartment at the beginning of the movie Ghost Story. Yuck.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Yeah, but she got her kit off in that. . .
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Even besides the chronological issues, for V'Ger to have spawned the Borg would've required that V'Ger got dumbed down by the whole Decker thing.
The concept of the machine planet being of the Borg also doesn't work. The only way it could would be if V6 had gone through some sort of temporally-distortive-spatial-anomaly-of-the-week. Then it could've ended up in the past, and encountered a machine planet that later had some sort of fusion with a humanoid species. In the interim, V'Ger had run around learning everything.
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
She did indeed, she was quite attractive back in 1981. But all of that is associated with the putrid flesh scenes in my memory. Rotting dead chick sort of spoils the fantasy.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
quote:Originally posted by Guardian 2000: The concept of the machine planet being of the Borg also doesn't work. The only way it could would be if V6 had gone through some sort of temporally-distortive-spatial-anomaly-of-the-week. Then it could've ended up in the past, and encountered a machine planet that later had some sort of fusion with a humanoid species. In the interim, V'Ger had run around learning everything.
I've actually heard that very theory before. I want to say it was in one of the various behind-the-scenes books about Star Trek, tho don't recall for certain.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
The premise changed right after "Q Who?". The Borg were one race that modified themselves technologically, and then set out to find more and newer technology to consume. They cared nothing about other races. Borg were still born biologically from the parent race and then modified. There was nothing about transwarp (they were just faster/better than the Enterprise). There was nothing about assimilation, no need for a mouthpiece. "The Best of Both Worlds" was painful for me to watch. The Borg we met in "Q Who?" wouldn't have sent one cube to assimilate Earth. Now that Q had made them aware of the Federation's existence (we can assume something happened to the scout ship poking along the Neutral Zone that prevented them from reporting), they'd just send fifty thousand cubes and obliterate the Federation. "When they come, they'll come in force. They don't do anything piecemeal." Yeah, unless the writers change their tune mid-beat.
And if the air was thin and cold aboard a cube, why in First Contact did an increase in temperature and pressure indicate a Borg presence? *grr* And if they stripped Picard's uniform off him, why were the uniforms of other assimilated crew members simply overgrown with Borg bits? *sigh* The Borg looked much scarier to me back before they got all slimy and stupid. They started off relentless and got more and more brainless. This is their quest for perfection? *shudder*
--Jonah
P.S. Cyberman: "EX-TER-MIN-ATE!" Baltar: "What are your standing instructions for humans?" Centurion: "Extermination." (god, I loved that voice)
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
quote:Borg were still born biologically from the parent race and then modified.
Hooray! Someone agrees with me. When I said that Borg reproduce biologically in addition to assimilation, I was immediately shot down and told they were assimilated babies in "Q Who?". I don't know if I believe that the Borg reproduce in utero, but they probably have fetal growth tanks that allow infants to develop.
I think that the Borg changed when some one on the Star Trek writing staff realized "Holy smokes we just signed the death warrant for our characters and the entire Federation. We don't want them to be totally anhilated when the Borg come." We have had suffer the new and improved Borg since then because they started to make them less powerful and more vulnerable. Not much drama if we see 50 or 100 Borg cubes annihale the entire Starfleet in a couple of minutes. Borg appear, Federation dies before commercial break.
At least JMS stayed true to his original concepts for the Vorlon and the Shadows in Babylon 5. The younger races would be toast if either one of these races was interested in conquest or consuming the technology or bodies of other species. Thankfully this was not their motivation and so the cast of Babylon 5 and the rest of the races survived.
The big problem that I have with some of the concepts in Star Trek is that no one thinks past a couple of episodes. They really should have sat down and planned large story arcs or how certain plot developments would affect later episodes. But they didn't, and that's how we get a mess like the Borg Queen and Seven of Nine, among the other continuity problems we have seen over the years.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Huh. Though of course no one really liked, say, "Dark Frontier," I always cast a jaundiced eye at the "Voyager has singlehandedly altered the whole concept!" claim. That happened at the beginning, I said. I'm sure there's someone out there there's a curmudgeon who didn't like "The Best of Both Worlds" for the same reason, I said to myself. Now we need to hear from someone mad that the Borg weren't the insectoid species they were first brainstormed to be.
Note: I am thoroughly pro-curmudgeon. Though "Best of Both Worlds" Borg are much more interesting to me than "Q Who" Borg, so I don't buy this particular argument.
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
I never said that Voyager altered the whole concept or its exclusively to blame. The TNG producers purposely altered the concept after "Q Who?" so they wouldn't kill everyone and everything in the Federation. The produces of TNG are clearly at fault for sowing the seeds of this one.
In "The Best of Both Worlds", I would think that the Borg would have stopped to assimilate and consume the worlds of the Klingon and Romulan Empires, and of the Federation, that were in their path to Sector 001. I think they travelled to Earth much too quickly. What's the rush? They should have resolved the story in a multiple episode arc instead of a two parter IMHO. Why did they need to assimilate and consume Earth first? Did they want it be a psychological blow so that the other worlds of the Federation would give up something about "primitive cultures are authority driven"?
I think that the attack on Sector 001 by the Borg was piece meal.
Regarding the original insect hive concept, at least the concept of a queen would have worked much better if most of them were insect-like drones.
If you like how the Borg developed in the shows that's fine with me. It's also fine with me if we agree to disagree.
If I held the creative reins I would have steered the stories differently and would have made the Federation's plight much more desperate. I would have entire Federation worlds full of Borg-ified citizens instead of the loss a small colony and Starfleet battlegroup.
Plus I would have had Picard introduce the virus at the end of "I, Borg", otherwise his change of heart makes no sense to me in Star Trek: First Contact. At least Janeway had the fortitude to destroy the transwarp conduit.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I wasn't refering to this thread, in the first instance.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
As I recall from an interview with Maurice Hurley (producer on part of TNG's first and second seasons), there WAS a Borg "arc" planned. I don't have the article handy any more, but as I recall it went something like this.
2. 2nd Season. Romulan Empire utterly decimated by a SINGLE Borg vessel. Last stand of Romulans destroys the Borg ship.
3. Over course of series, Picard tries to figure out how the Romulans destoyed the Borg before they send another ship and do a similar number on the Federation. Naturally, sooner or later, the Borg show up.
4. Borg are ant-like in that they are a hive and they don't care if they all die achieving their goals, so long as the goals are met.
5. Q plays a recurring part, much as he did in Q Who.
Something like that. I'd have liked that better.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
That sounds chillingly wonderful!
Except that would mean WAY less Romulan stories throughout the series - meaning no "The Defector", "Face of the Enemy" etc.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I would have been content with fewer Romulan stories if it meant better Borg stories. "The Defector" could have very easily been re-written for a Cardassian Legate (yes, I know it was too early for that, but...) and "Face of the Enemy" was pretty bad. "The Enemy" could have been kept pretty much intact, though...
But I've always liked the idea of the Romulans knowing about the Borg far longer than the Federation. Aside from the fact that their sphere of influence pokes out into the shallow Delta Quadrant, the biggest thing I wondered about was why, after hiding behind their borders for fifty years, did they show up to our first encounter after all that time in a warship twice as big as the Federation's biggest Explorer? "Matters more urgent required our absence." If they were dealing with a Borg incursion on the other side of their space, I'd call that urgent.
--Jonah
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't know, that line to me kind of sounds like your typical totalitarian press release. "We were very busy in grand and noble enterprises." as code for "We've spent the last half century engaging in some minor wars of expansion in an effort to prop up our ailing command economy." I mean, for example.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And as for the Romulans turning up in a big fuck-off ship...what did you expect them to turn up in? The Federation sent the best ship in the fleet (TM). You'd expect the Romulans to do the same, no?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hell no! I'd expect the Romulans to send a scout to test Starfleet. To see if Starfleet would violate the NZ after seeing a (presumably) weaker foe, all the while several Warbirds are lying in wait to cripple and capture Enterprise for it's technological secrets...
I was always a fan of the Romulans having been "kept busy" all those decades by some great foe like the Borg....mabye the Hurq cold be worked into a nice backstory. In the (non-canon, I know)game Invasion, the Hurq had retreated to subspace and return after the USS Sentinel activates a long dormant space vessel containing thousands of Hurq.... Good storyline with great graphics too. Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Hell no! I'd expect the Romulans to send a scout to test Starfleet. To see if Starfleet would violate the NZ after seeing a (presumably) weaker foe, all the while several Warbirds are lying in wait to cripple and capture Enterprise for it's technological secrets...
You're assuming that the Romulan Empire is in any fit state to wage war at this point. If they really had been fighting the Borg then it probably wasn't. Sending a huge Warbird would be a show of strenght to discourage the Federation from crossing the border, a bluff if you will.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: In the (non-canon, I know)game Invasion, the Hurq had retreated to subspace and return after the USS Sentinel activates a long dormant space vessel containing thousands of Hurq.... Good storyline with great graphics too.
JA, could you describe some more of the game to me? does it jibe with the Hurq seen in the novels "The Left Hand of Destiny" ? and what about the Sentinel? class/ncc?
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Ships from Star Trek: Invasion ------------------------------
USS Sentinel; Sovereign Class; NCC-1703-B* USS Typhon; Typhon Class; NX-85808 USS Discovery; Steamrunner Class; NCC-52333 USS Lovell; Oberth Class; NCC-Unknown
*intended to be the same USS Sentinel as mentioned by Deep Space Nine.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Magnus: Ships from Star Trek: Invasion ------------------------------
USS Sentinel; Sovereign Class; NCC-1703-B* USS Typhon; Typhon Class; NX-85808 USS Discovery; Steamrunner Class; NCC-52333 USS Lovell; Oberth Class; NCC-Unknown
*intended to be the same USS Sentinel as mentioned by Deep Space Nine.
Add to that, correctly rendered a Soverign shuttle, tons of Fed lifeboats, a KBOP, Hediki sttack ships (correctly scaled even!), a Cardassian freighter,BOrg ships galore, including new designs that look cool (a needle-like ship in particular) and lots of cool new ship designs for the insectoid Hurq. ...and Michael Dorn and Patrick Stewart on vocal talents too. If you've ever seen the pic of Voyager flying over the Golden Gate bridge with fireworks welcoming them home, then you've already seen one of the three endings to Invasion. Some artist was definitely "inspired" by the game. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: and "Face of the Enemy" was pretty bad. "The Enemy"
What sort of crazy mind-bending drugs are you on - Face of... was a brilliant episode. I supposed you found Voyager's "Favourite Son" better.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Was "Face of the Enemy" the one with Geordi on the planet with the romulan guy? If so, it did indeed suck (aside from Worf letting the Romulan die, that was suprising and well done). Dont get me wrong, it didint suck anywhere near as hard as anything involving Ferengi, Troi, Dr Pulaski, Dr Crusher, rights for AI's or talking sand, but it was VERY predictable. All it needed was for geordi to say "I'm getting too old for this shit" and you'd have a buddy movie.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
"Face of the Enemy" is the one where a faction of Romulan's wishing for reform kidnap Deanna Troi, give her cosmetic surgery and some sort of implant that makes her lifesigns appear to be Romulan. They set her up as a Tal Shiar officer on board a Romulan Warbird to help foil some sort of plot involving the Romulan gov't's high command and some sort of weapons banned w/in the Federation - presumably to be used on the UFP during a planned conflict. The opposition didn't want to have to go to war and was hoping for reforms w/in the gov't, setting things up for the later episode w/Spock. At least, I think that's what the main plot was. It was alright, but not at all as suspenseful as you'd have thought.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
um, actually she was present to help smuggle high ranking defectors out of the empire. thanks for playing.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And it took place after the episode with Spock.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike20X6: um, actually she was present to help smuggle high ranking defectors out of the empire. thanks for playing.
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: And it took place after the episode with Spock.
Alrighty. I stand corrected. As I said, I didn't recall all the details of the main plot, but remember the basics of the episode.
Thanks for your attempt at belitting me, Cap'n.....
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
No need to thank him. It's his job.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
oh, there's plenty of parting shots you could swing back at me if you feel the need to bolster your ego.. if you need any material: I'm on drugs! My girlfriend stopped having sex with me for a lot of last month! My Star Trek webpage doesn't get updated often enough! I like to fool around with girls who are young!
anywho, that was more of a 'you're losing at Trivial Pursuit' kind of comment not a 'suck it you uneducated cocknocker!' kind of comment.. i wouldn't really take anyone to task over TNG trivia.. (especially season 6.. ugh)..
anywho, um, thanks for playing
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
"Boosting my ego?" Not hardly. I guess I just took it wrong.
I've never been one to mince words and am not at all afraid to let someone know what's on my mind, tho. Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Hypothetically, if I where to stear back to the subject... the Borg forces seen in Voyager are a whole lot of cubes, in a society that can grow real quick... Personally, I think they are a new race (?) and are just gaining momentum when they explore the Alpha quadrant and meet Voyager. Either that, or they ARE pretty old and are just now getting the technology to swarm through the galaxy
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
It depends on what you mean by "old race". Certainly they are old by human standards of running around the galaxy, according to Voyager (and TNG too, I think).
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
I still think it's quite a stretch to make the Decker/Ilia/Voyager hybrid the genesis of the Borg. I am still convinced that the Decker/Ilia/Voyager hybrid became a non-corporeal energy creature like the Organians or the Companion. What was the whole point of the light show at the end of the Star Trek: The Motion Picture otherwise except to show V'ger converting itself to pure energy.
I still believe that the Borg are like a twisted version of the Bynars or the Brynars taken to an extreme. Originally the Borg were an organic race who began to increasingly become dependent on cybernetics. Perhaps their cybernetic use started innocently enough as a way to extend life by replacing diseased and failing organs. They may have wanted to wire their brains together to colloborate on engineering problems or scientific research or to communicate much more effectively than just using words. Over decades or centuries they evolved into a Collective intelligence and became the Borg that we met in the 24th century.
But no one can say that Star Trek fans aren't creative.
On the subject of Star Trek: Invasion, author James Swallows discussed his experience with the development team in creating the game at the following web site: Star Trek: Invasion
It makes interesting reading if you have not already seen it. James Swallows also reveals that he is the author of some material from the dreaded Star Trek Fact Files. Hopefully he was the author of the stuff that got the technical information right.
My sympathies go out to you Captain Mike. I hope things will go better for you in the future and you will be much happier. I wish you the best.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffworks: "Face of the Enemy" is the one where a faction of Romulan's wishing for reform kidnap Deanna Troi, give her cosmetic surgery and some sort of implant that makes her lifesigns appear to be Romulan.
Holy Jesus Fuck that was one of THE WORST episodes of TNG ever! Ever. I've seen viewmaster reels that were far more entertaining.
I'd like to see the Bynars invite the Borg to assimilate them. It's the direction they're headed in anyway, so why not? Could/ should Starfleet interfere and try to stop the Borg (what with Bynar being a likely Federation world and all)if the Bynars started making overtures to the Borg in favor of assimilation?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'm confused as to this hatred of "Face of the Enemy". But then I've seen people here say that The Motion Picture is better than Star Trek II, so obviously this is bizaro-rating world.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
SMASH MOUTH IS BETTER THAN QUEEN.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
They are certainly gayer.
IT IS A TWOFER!!
quote: Brynars
An entire planet of evolved sea monkeys.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
eHigh Five.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Holy Jesus Fuck that was one of THE WORST episodes of TNG ever! Ever. I've seen viewmaster reels that were far more entertaining. [/qb]
Damn, Jason! Are there ANY TNG episodes that you actually don't hate...?
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Holy Jesus Fuck that was one of THE WORST episodes of TNG ever! Ever. I've seen viewmaster reels that were far more entertaining.
Wow! That really is quite a statement considering the number of lows in Star Trek: The Next Generation. The first season, IMO, for the most part is a total loss, can you say "Code of Honor" and "Angel One". Or how about the stinkeroo of stinkers, "Skin of Evil". Or how about the cheapo flashback episode "Shades of Gray".
"Face of the Enemy" is Shakespeare compared to those high points in Star Trek: The Next Generation.
BUMP
I am still not convinced that there is any connection between V'ger and the Borg.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Triton: My sympathies go out to you Captain Mike. I hope things will go better for you in the future and you will be much happier. I wish you the best.
Hey man, don't worry about me... my life is hilarious.. even with any aforementioned problems, its still warp cruising.. besides, i'm high and i have a girl in my lap
the Invasion info is interesting.. but -B registry suffix makes me kinda wary.. plus a novel has established the Sentinel as an Akira.. who to believe, who to believe
oh, and on "Face of the Enemy" : i never really hated that one so much.. kinda despised the hokey premise and the clich�d occurrences, but overall the ep gets better marks for the fact that i actualy enjoyed watching it.. but yeah, there are many episodes that have more solid foundations
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
Yeah, enough with suffixes already in registry numbers. NCC-1305-E was a mistake, and I don't want to continue to keep track of version suffixes. Jackill took this to an extreme and it seems like every ship he had in Volume III has a -B suffix attached to the registry number.
Plus a Sovereign-class U.S.S. Sentinel? It makes more sense to have an Akira-class U.S.S. Sentinel than a Sovereign one. The name Sentinel does not conjur up images of exploration, it's clearly a warship name. Alas, too many scribes covering the same creative ground. There are hundreds of perfectly good names that would make excellent starship names. Everyone wants to focus on the ones that have been mentioned in dialogue but whose classes have not been established. Like the Musashi, last I heard she was an Ambassador-class.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Griffworks:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Holy Jesus Fuck that was one of THE WORST episodes of TNG ever! Ever. I've seen viewmaster reels that were far more entertaining.
Damn, Jason! Are there ANY TNG episodes that you actually don't hate...? [/QB]
Sure! LOTS of episodes! Data's day, The Wounded, BOBW (allthough Shelby gets a lobotomy and becomes nice in ptII), The Defector, Conspiracy, All Good Things, Redemption (both parts even!) Lots more that I can't recall immeadately too but there are certain critera that make a sucky episode to me: Alexander episodes Troi episodes Lwaxanna Troi episodes (untill DS9 anyway) Moriaty episodes Any episode where a crewmember mutates into anything. Any episode where a character is possesed by an alien for any reason. (trills incuded) These criteria DO of course eliinate many episodes. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Lots more that I can't recall immeadately too but there are certain critera that make a sucky episode to me:
...
Moriaty episodes
1/ Blatantly crazy statement. 2/ Confusion. 3/ ??? 4/ Profit!
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
It's a good thing you didn't list Moriarty as a Suckitude criteria.
Because, you know, those were good.
Moriaty episodes were so gay. Like for real. Steel Mill Gay.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
No. Those were horiffically bad after the initial watching (they were at best bland the first time around). You probably liked "The Royale" too? Same fucking thing really: another holodeck episode to fill gaps between better episodes.
Mabye I'm just biased that I'd ordered Voyager's Message in a bottle" and Suncoast got me "Ship in a bottle" instead.....I've never forgiven them for that. For the death of my boy...
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Why should "Ship in a bottle" be bad? I think it had the most intelligent plot of all the "holodeck failure" episodes. It showed us that holodeck and transporter are related technologies, but that "holomatter" has no substance. There were some ingenious plot twists too:
- Data and Picard are still in the holodeck without knowing, and Data only recognizes that because Holo-LaForge is using the wrong hand. - They create a "holodeck in the holodeck" to fool Moriarty. Okay, not very realistic, but pleasantly mind-boggling. - Finally, they transfer Moriarty to a small cube and provide him with enough adventures for the next years. A cute and very Trek-like solution.
Compare that to "Spirit Folk" :-(
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: Compare that to "Spirit Folk" :-(
BELIEVE me whaen I say that i was not listing all of TNG's bad episodes (several of witch I can NOT watch again- or even have on while I do other things- I was just siting personal criteria for bad episodes. If an episode has several criteria in one massive dose of crapness I'll scramble for the remote like it was a live grenade. "Fistfull of Data's" foe example is an abyss: It's a Troi/Alexander/holodeck episode so dense that even the most rabid fanboy could have written far far better.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bernd: Compare that to "Spirit Folk" :-(
BELIEVE me whaen I say that i was not listing all of TNG's bad episodes (several of witch I can NOT watch again- or even have on while I do other things- I was just siting personal criteria for bad episodes. If an episode has several criteria in one massive dose of crapness I'll scramble for the remote like it was a live grenade. "Fistfull of Data's" for example is an abyss: It's a Troi/Alexander/holodeck episode so dense that even the most rabid fanboy could have written far far better.
Oddly enough, many good episodes with these characters/ holodeck are great on other series, just not on TNG. "Mr Bashier I presume" was a great episode and it was all on the Holodeck...hell all the stuff with Vic was darn good too. But DS9 often made lemonaide from TNG's lemons. Lwaxanna was even cool on DS9 and that's really saying a LOT.
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
quote:But DS9 often made lemonaide from TNG's lemons. Lwaxanna was even cool on DS9 and that's really saying a LOT.
Agreed about TNG. None of the episodes with Lwaxana waould have been worth the money without her.
But you don't like DS9 either? Or only the first two seasons?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
"A Fistfull Of Datas" was pleasant, low-maintanence fun I thought. The Royale was awful, although it fails the "bad holodeck story" criteria by, er, not involving the holodeck.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bernd:
quote:But DS9 often made lemonaide from TNG's lemons. Lwaxanna was even cool on DS9 and that's really saying a LOT.
Agreed about TNG. None of the episodes with Lwaxana waould have been worth the money without her.
But you don't like DS9 either? Or only the first two seasons?
Uh. You misunderstand! I LOVE DS9! I even really like their first season. I was pointing out "DS9 often made lemonaide from TNG's lemons."- that's a american euphemism meaning taking something distasteful or bad and making something cool.
I dig DS9 (all of it), about 70% of TNG, 40% of Voyager, probably 50% of TOS and 80% Enterprise. I'll take some heat for not being a big TOS fan but while I aknowledge it was groundbreaking for it's time, it's just not for me.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I think you'll take a lot more flak for liking "Meridian", myself.
Posted by Triton (Member # 1043) on :
BUMP!
Still not convinced that the Borg are related to V'ger. I understand that this was a plot point in one of the William Shatner and Reeves-Stevens Star Trek novels. Did I overhear wrong in a thread at SCN?
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
i found the way it was presented reasonable..
the story from that Shatner novel is that the Borg didn't assimilate the Voyager 6, since it wasn't organic.. they just enhanced it and sent it on its way.. the probe carried the communications protocol of the Borg unimind hive, but was not part of it or in communication with it.. therefore, the Borg never knew what happened to V'Ger and the Decker-Ilia event is completely unknown and unrelated to any stage of the Borg's evolution.
So basically, V'Ger was not Borg.. but the machine planet it found was Borg..
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Jesus! You're serious about Shatner being allowed to write anything!?! Worse still, it's published and PEOPLE BUY IT!?! Next thing you know, Kid Rock will win the Pulitzer. Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Jesus! You're serious about Shatner being allowed to write anything!?! Worse still, it's published and PEOPLE BUY IT!?! Next thing you know, Kid Rock will win the Pulitzer.
Shatner doesn't write squat. His name is just a franchise. All his books are ghost written.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well he needs better ghosts, that's for certain! Thank god that Pocket books does'nt consider his stories part of their mainstream continuity. Bad enough John Vornholt is still allowed to write multi-part crossover crap (like Genesis Wave) wherein Picard saves the entire Federation/Galaxy/Universe on a yearly basis so predictable that Jean-Juc should be sporting tights and a cape by now and hailing from Krypton. Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: Shatner doesn't write squat. His name is just a franchise. All his books are ghost written.
Funny, I heard that because of the size of his ego, hiring a ghost writer would be unthinkable to him.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
he cowrites.. he basically described the writing process where he goes to Gar and Judy's house, they sit down and plot out the books ending, Shat tells them what he wants Kirk's focus/theme to be, an then they write it..
he originally claimed to be the sole writer, but contradicted himself when he admitted he had never watched TNG, DS9 or VGR yet was writing detailed stories mixing characters from each.
oh, and i like them.. maybe im mellowing in my old age, but i think that i cant really get mad about Star Trek anymore.. its a source of enjoyment, not stress... if Shat wants to write over-the top ridiculous ego gratifiers, i dont really get upset.. besides, as with any book, reading it and decoding that it is cheesy is half the fun..
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Phhht. I'll bet he's writing Kirk to be either Q or Jesus next. Mabye both: he'll be called Quesus.
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Phhht. I'll bet he's writing Kirk to be either Q or Jesus next. Mabye both: he'll be called Quesus.
ROFL, give that man a copyright!!
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
jeez Jason, you feel rather strongly about this..
your anger will be your undoing
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Or a loose nail.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Or a ham sandwich.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike20X6: jeez Jason, you feel rather strongly about this..
your anger will be your undoing
I don't know what it is exactly or why I'm homicidal towards the man.... Mabye it's the presumption the he could actually decide the fate of the franchise (or even a miniscule part of it) when he admits to not ever watching the other (and VASTLY superior other Trek shows) or his claiming to erite anything when at best he's coming up with plot threads while ghost writers do the work and get dick for credit. Hundreds of aspiring writers have submissions rejected every day although their stories are GOOD but this hack gets published just because of his name. (throws tantrum: destroys apartment)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by CaptainMike20X6: jeez Jason, you feel rather strongly about this..
your anger will be your undoing
I don't know what it is exactly or why I'm homicidal towards the man.... Mabye it's the presumption the he could actually decide the fate of the franchise (or even a miniscule part of it) when he admits to not ever watching the other (and VASTLY superior other Trek shows) or his claiming to erite anything when at best he's coming up with plot threads while ghost writers do the work and get dick for credit. Hundreds of aspiring writers have submissions rejected every day although their stories are GOOD but this hack gets published just because of his name. (throws tantrum: destroys apartment)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
In 99% of all cases, good stories will find a home.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Says the man trying to get a comic book published.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
2004's Watchmen.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Or 2004's 1990's X-Men.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
"As for multi-millionaire scripter Chris Claremont, perpetuator of this mutant shit that's eaten the direct sales network alive... Find him and kidney-beat him with big iron bars until he pukes huge fountains of blood and urine, then feed him to a bunch of lager-crazed Millwall boys. It's the only answer."
Warren Ellis, on X-Men #1.
So, Simon, don't become Neo-Claremont. I don't want to kidney attack you.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I meant later than that, after Clearmont left, and it was all "Age of Monkeys Doing Crazy Shit in 20 different X-title books and I DON'T KNOW WHO I AM ANYMORE OH LOOK JEAN'S NOT DEAD!!!"
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
You forgot that everyone, and I do mean EVERYONE was somehow related and characters killed off in one X-Title would pop up in another with zero explanation. And there was an "X" multi-part fuckover crossover every year. Psylocke went from British to Asian ninja and never looked back. Wolverine is now hundreds of years old and fought alongside Captain America and young Black Widow before Pearl Harbor in madripor against Strucker and Hydra....nevermind that cap joined the army BECAUSE of Pearl Harbor and that the story makes Black widow at least 70 years old. Professor X is killed or crippled more times than Wolvie says "bub" and regularly kissed Jean in times of stress without Cyclops ever finding out or blasting the flesh of his metal bones. Six times a year there'd be a "deluxe-special-holo-foil-bagged-glow in the dark- scratch n' sniff- numbered issue with a card for only $5 extra with no extra pages. And (worst artist ever published) Rob Lifeild was a celeberity. (shudder)
By comparison Shatner does'nt seem so bad...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Super-fly double post!
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
My slant on the Borg development is this.The Borg that Picards crew first encountered were some of the first to leave the Delta quadrent.The Cube and its technology while advanced and nearly unstopable were far behind that of the Borg that had remained behind to conquer the races of the Borg dominated systems Janeway encountered.The time element was the thing.If the Borg Queen in First Contact had suceeded in alerting the Delta Borg it would still have been decades before an Invasion would have occured.Unless She also transmitted detailed information on advanced populsion systems.The Borg Genesis would seem to me to have grown from the replacement of lost limbs and the development of neural interface to allow control.This led to a sort of cult of body enhancement that changed the society.The old Michael Rennie Movie Cyborg 2087(may have the year wrong)dealt with a form of electronic telepathy originaly meant for communication.Soon this lead to no one being able to hide their thoughts.World domination followed.Perhaps the Borg lost their individuality this way.The Borg are Pirates in the pure sense of the word.They are users not creators and that is their fatal flaw.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
My slant: There is more than one collective. There's the corrupted version the Queen has and the far older and tougher version we see in BOBW. THe collectives work in tandem to assimilate species but remain seperate to avoid system-wide virus infection (like that crap Admiral Janeway pulled or the Icheb virus).
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
That still fits in with my slant pretty good.The older Borg would have gone out searching for worlds,bypassing those too primitive to be of value.Later those same primitive worlds would have progressed enough to be ripe for the harvest.I figure that the Trans warp used by Hughs collective was a product of the World that Lor helped them conquer.The Voyager Borg may have developed it from information that they got from the Raven and Seven's father.Missed a lot of that series so I'm mostly guessing there.I figure any Borg That are encountered by the prototype Enterprize should be the most Primitive of all.Maybe they will even find a few survivors of the parent species still free of Borg influence.That would make a very interesting meeting.
Posted by Brian Whisenhunt (Member # 1095) on :
There was a book published "Vendetta" that not only proposed that V'Decker was either found by/ or began the borg. The interesting part was that there was an enlarged version of the Planet Killer that Kirk gave Constellational heartburn (and Matt Decker dove a shuttle into) that was found deactivated. The one Kirk nuked was a prototype designed by some race to fight the borg. Now that would make for a battle. I would have preferred that type of battle to the "First Contact" stuff.
Why would the borg need to come TO earth to travel back in time? Why not travel back in time AT HOME and then go to Earth around the industrial revolution? Is near Earth proximity the only place time travel is allowed?
I agree the lack of continuity in plot lines is lame. What happened to the parasites that attached to peoples spines? Did they get assimilated on the way? I see the logic behing the multiple hives theory, EXCEPT, what keeps them from tagging EACH OTHER? See some could have the Cubes, others Spheres, some Pyramids stolen from the Goa'uld, and the grandaddy Dodecahedron what a Geometry War!
My question is.... Does ANYBODY at Paramount even THINK about potential problems like this or do they just do another line and call it "Temporal Mechanics"?
Posted by Brian Whisenhunt (Member # 1095) on :
If the Borg assimilated Springfield..... would Apu become 7 of 11?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote: Why would the borg need to come TO earth to travel back in time? Why not travel back in time AT HOME and then go to Earth around the industrial revolution? Is near Earth proximity the only place time travel is allowed? [/QB]
The Borg should be able to formulate complex strategies and alternate plans in a second (what with all that computing and brain power on hand and thousands of years of experience) and almost certainly came up with time travel only after their cube was blowing up around them. It's even likely that the sphere they traveled in was fabricated from the cube's interior mass as soon as the battle turned against them (as oppposed to every cube having a silly 600 meter sphere inside for no good reason).
If the Borg did time travel back to the 21st century from their own space, they's still have to physically travel to earth and it's possible there were powerful races of that era that they'd rather not have to fight on the way. Besides, a 24th century cube in their own space 300 years too soon would interfere with their own development. Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
The sphere may also have been a device with only limited intersystem travel capability. All available space filled with the time travel equipment. The cube itself was an expendable delivery system.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
But a newly-made sphere would explain why it was sssso easily destroyed. It just was'nt quite finished. If the Borg wanted to bother with two ships, why not just send another cube? Picard or no, two cubes at once would have ended the movie (and franchise for that matter) very quickly. Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
Being constructed on board as it would have been. Perhaps never meant to last beyond its mission. Only the weapons needed to destroy the instalation. Shields not considered to be a big thing because they expected no real oposition. Borg throwaway mentality. One shot at the prize.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Makes sense to me: they sure didint expect Enterprise E to follow them. I can just see the Borg queen's reaction: "Not these assholes again!"
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The reason they never sent two cubes (in FC or BOBW), was that, to the Borg, they had a 99% chance of winning with just one Borg. Sending two would not have been efficient.
Of course, they reckoned without SUPER HERO MAIN CHARACTER DUDES, but all villians are guilty of that.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Of course, they also never bothered to use that damned Transwarp Conduit That Opened On Earth's Doorstep� either... would that be because the Borg just decided to be sporting?
Or, to come up with a halfway logical reason, perhaps the Borg wanted to take the long route so that they could wipe out some of the resistance along the way, thus causing more damage and possibly ensuring a quicker overall victory after Earth was assimilated (so they could spread from there).
Perhaps, they figured that Earth could not be held if most of Starfleet in the nearby regions remained intact afterwards?
But then, why not just send ten goddamned cubes through the conduit at once and lay waste to everything?
*sigh* Part of me wants to just wipe all traces of Voyager off the face of the planet.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
I don't know. Ever since BOBW I've felt that the TNG writers painted themselves into a corner where the Borg were concerned. VOY just worsened the damage.
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
I got the impression that Hugh's rogue Borg collective assimilated the transwarp tech from one of the planets that Lore helped them conquer, and that the Delta Borg got it later on. And the writers had their work cut out for them on all this thats for sure. P.S. just realized I had areadly mentioned that in an earlier post. but it still goes toward the timeline and logistics problems. Timelines the main thing damn time travel is confusing some times.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I don't think Lore's "gang" of drones conquored anything at all. There would have been some reports of that huge ship.... Although it DOES seem that Lore was able to improve on the transpawp conduit to make it more useful (if at a more limited range).
I also really wish Voyager had never tampered with the Borg: the Borg could have become a real boogeyman if done right...but there was just no suspense in their stories at all. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Of course, they reckoned without SUPER HERO MAIN CHARACTER DUDES, but all villians are guilty of that.
They also never reckoned with making SUPER VILLIAN MISTAKES!
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
Remember the planet where Lore had his Home base. And I believe another dead planet was mentioned. No one survived to tell what of happened. Hughes collective under Lores influence fought differently than any other Borg. Killing was more important than assimilation of new drones.P.S. remember also that the ship that picked up Hugh was not transwarp otherwise it would have been mentioned. Transwarp was introduced by the 'Lore Gang' episode.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Just because it was a dead planet does'nt mean Lore band of (definitely less than a thousand) losers killed the population. Heck the Transwarp tech could have been there already and Lore just modified it.
Or Lore call in another of his crystal snowflake pals to clean house before he moved in.... Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
Good point about the size of Hughes collective. No one will ever be sure who the missing populatio were. Perhaps they will turn up one day in a movie. Perhaps they left to avoid confrontation with an enemy and ran into the delta Borg. Lore was one dangerous AI, could have destroyed a population by him self using bio weapons.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I miss Lore. I SO wanted B4 to be a backup copy Lore made of himself. Think about it: Lore would have been using Shinzon to kill off all those pesky humans and Data would have had his own "Nemesis". Data coud have died defeating Lore and the movie wold have been great.....(sigh)
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
I haven't seen Nemesis yet. Some say good some say bad. Don't get out much and when I do its business first. No time for movies. Just wait for the DVD. It out yet?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Yep.
--Jonah
P.S. Not that this is a commentary on the film's quality or anything -- well... okay it is -- but I did a three-minute rewrite that my friends said was vastly superior to what made it to the screen. You have been warned... Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
The writers of Star Trek are trembling in their boots. No, really.
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
If it sucks that bad I'll wait till it gets to cable. Then only if theres nothing else on.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: The writers of Star Trek are trembling in their boots. No, really.
If you can revise a 120 page screenplay in thre minutes you're the world's fastest typist. Or are you saying in 3 minutes you came up with some changes? Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I'm saying that in three minutes I had seen and effected enough changes that it was already a different and better story, and that was before I even started putting any real effort into it.
And Mucus, I was warning that Nemesis was a really bad story, not that I'm coming for the writers' jobs.
--Jonah
Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
Has any one here read the play R.U.R.(Rossum's Universal Robots) by Karel Capek? It came out in 1921. My copy is copywrite dated 1931. I believe Leonard Nimoy was in a stage production before Star Trek came along. The costumes used in that production resemble Spocks uniform in the pilot. Do you think the characters of Lore and Data are influenced by that play?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
You're asking if there is any connection between what's essentially the genesis of the robot and a couple of modern day robots? Sure, in the same sense that anyone writing in English is dealing with Shakespeare or the King James Bible.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's VERY unlikely the writers of first season TNG read your source material but prahaps some of their inspirations were taken from writers that had.
You don't have to had actually seen Metroplis to get the refernce in Family Guy. But it helps. Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
The rogue Robot 'Radius',in R.U.R. is a very interesting fellow very much like Lore. If you haven't read R.U.R. in its original form you are really missing something. The still photos from one of the stage productions show the robots raising hell very much like Lore's Borg. The poses are strikingly similar. And the costumes of the robot workers bear a strong resemblance to the uniforms in the pilot episode. This link should be useful to all that are interested in robots and androids http://www.androidworld.com/ Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mountain Man: Has any one here read the play R.U.R.(Rossum's Universal Robots) by Karel Capek? It came out in 1921. My copy is copywrite dated 1931. I believe Leonard Nimoy was in a stage production before Star Trek came along. The costumes used in that production resemble Spocks uniform in the pilot. Do you think the characters of Lore and Data are influenced by that play?
Costumes in which staging of the play?
Perhaps this? Posted by Mountain Man (Member # 1114) on :
Not the same picture I remember but it could be the same production. I think the one I saw stills of may have been done about about the time Nimoy was in'Radar Men From The Moon' The Robots in the Background have the same kind of tunics. Don't you think they resemble the Crews jackets from the pilot?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
V'Ger assimilation tech also far outperformed that of the Borg. The merging of man and machine seemed to lead to a "spiritual" form of existence, not to a clumsy cyborg.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
There are hundreds of perfectly good names that would make excellent starship names. Everyone wants to focus on the ones that have been mentioned in dialogue but whose classes have not been established. Like the Musashi, last I heard she was an Ambassador-class.
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
