the part about who commanded he Enterprise during the refit. It was Decker, and was explicitly stated in the movie. He was an untried captain that Admiral Kirk replaced. [center]
quote:44 INT. TRAVEL POD - KIRK AND SCOTT 44
Scott nervously eying Kirk, and finally deciding to make one more effort:
SCOTT The crew hasn't had near enough transition time with all the new equipment. And the engines, Admiral: they've yet to be even tested at warp power. Add to that, an untried Captain...
KIRK (hint of smile) Two and a half years as Chief of Starfleet Operations may have made me a little stale, Mr. Scott -- but I wouldn't exactly consider myself 'untried.'
It takes Scott a moment to comprehend, and Kirk smiles now, nods:
[/center][center]
quote:KIRK I appreciate the welcome; I wish the circumstances were less critical. (to Uhura) Epsilon Nine is monitoring the intruder; keep a channel open to them. (glances around) Where is Captain Decker?
SULU He's in Engineering, sir... (uncomfortable, indicates Captain's chair) He doesn't know.
Kirk reacts with some exasperation, starts away, addresses Chekov:
KIRK Mr Chekov, assemble the crew on the Rec Deck at 0400 hours. I want to show them what we're facing.
And Kirk moves to the elevator, enters, is gone. The moment the elevator doors snap closed:
SULU I wouldn't have wanted to have been standing in his way. He wanted her back; he got her!
ALIEN ENSIGN (perturbed) And Captain Decker? He's been with the ship every minute of her refitting...
UHURA (brittle) Ensign -- our chances of coming back from this mission in one piece may have just doubled...!
[/center]also, on the matter of Valtane in "Flashback" that episode completely misinterprets the events of ST:VI.. IN the briefing (just after the Excelsior scene at the opening), Captain Spock state that the explosionof PRaxis had been monitored two months earlier, in the episode "Flashback" the Excelsior is heading to the conference some two days after. the writer didnt take into account that it would be months after the explosion the the assassinations and the subsequent battle at KHitomer, not days(of course, they mightve been going 'by the book' like Lt Saavik and the two months seemed like days...)
Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
Last but not least, Valtane was a Commander and I really doubt that he would share his quarters with an ensign.
Re: Picard's age I think I read somewhere that TPTB made Picard intentionally older than Stewart to show that people in the future look younger than they are and live longer.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Something struck me:
quote:Another possibility is that Bashir changed to a different uniform for the medical conference. That is, however, unlikely. There is apparently no such tradition. For example, in "Rapture", Starfleet officers who arrived on DS9 did not change into DS9-gray uniforms.
There is precedent. Sisko changed into a TNG style uniform when he went to Earth in "Homecoming".
However, that situation was a bit different. The implication seems to be that the TNG and DS9 uniforms were concurrent, and it was up to ship or starbase commanders to pick what to wear. Possibly since the DS9 one looked more casual than the TNG one, Sisko decided to smarten himself up before he met the President.
However, the FC uniform seems to be fleetwide. A possibly explanation for the other Starfleet officers not wearing it in Rapture is that United Fed Ex hadn't got around to delivering it yet. Maybe.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I also read the same thing as Spike about Picard's age. And regarding his hair loss:
Someone once asked Gene Roddenberry about why they chose a bald person as captain. They said "Surely baldness will have been cured by then."
Roddenberry's answer was that, by the 24th century, it wouldn't matter either way.
Of course, later Trek series were a bit less "evolved wonderful human beings" than TNG, but even the ever-so-slightly vain Tom Paris doesn't seem to have done much to fix his receeding hair line. Unless Voyager ran out of Monoxonel in the Delta Quadrant.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
And this guy in the background, from "ToTP" I think, really annoys me. . .
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
So Liam... You're telling me that an Admiral coming straight from Earth to admit Bajor to the Federation, and the Captain of the ship who brought him, didn't have the new uniforms... but the entire crew of this wartorn, edge-of-the-Federation space station did...
Why do I seem to be one of the only ones who thinks the First Contact uniforms replaced the DS9/Voyager uniforms as the fleet's BDUs, while the Class A TNG duty uniform stayed in service throughout?
--Jonah
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
probably more likely was slowly phased out.. similarly, the Antares men in "Charlie X" still wore the old Cage/WNMHGB issue even though the 1701 had the black collar colorful uniforms
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
They were a science probe ship/cargo vessel that had been out for a long-ass time. They were not an Admiral who had just come from Earth to admit a new Federation member.
By your example, it should have been the other way round, with the Admiral and his Captain wearing the new uniforms and Sisko and Co. wearing the older ones.
--Jonah
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Maybe. . . ships en route didn't have to change uniform styles until they visited a spacedock or starbase? A starship under way is busy enough without a major change like that. It would be far easier for a deep space station with less than a hundred Starfleet personnel to make the change than some large starship with anything up to a thousand people on board!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Exactly. Plus, with the amount of traffic DS9 was seeing those days, it couldn't have been hard to stick a supply on them.
Of course, this is assuming they are not replicated, in which case, some captains must have just been lazy in getting around to ordering their crews to wear them.
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: Why do I seem to be one of the only ones who thinks the First Contact uniforms replaced the DS9/Voyager uniforms as the fleet's BDUs, while the Class A TNG duty uniform stayed in service throughout?
Because, with the sole exception of that bloke from ToTP, we never, ever, ever saw a TNG style uniform in Star Trek since season 6 of DS9? Not any of the Starfleet crews that stopped at DS9. No-one on Earth working to get Voyager home. No-one in the fleet arranged to stop a possible Borg invasion through a transwarp conduit. No-one on a secret hi-tech Starfleet vessel that can split in 3 and appease fanboys. No-one at all.
What reason have you got for thinking that the TNG uniforms stayed in service?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Spike: Last but not least, Valtane was a Commander and I really doubt that he would share his quarters with an ensign.
Unless he was in a relationship with said ensign....but that leads to all kinds of chain of command conflicts.
Did I mention FLashback sucked?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Why on Earth were their bunkbeds anyway? The original Enterprise didn't have them. Why would the super, amazingly awesome Excelsior have them?
(Although that's Meyer's fault as well, for putting them on the Ent-A in STVI).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Part of the movie era's switch to a more military feel. Pretty stupid though.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by Spike: Last but not least, Valtane was a Commander and I really doubt that he would share his quarters with an ensign.
Unless he was in a relationship with said ensign....but that leads to all kinds of chain of command conflicts.
ewwwwww...
Posted by David Templar (Member # 580) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Part of the movie era's switch to a more military feel. Pretty stupid though.
I'll take the militaristic uniform over the scary body suits anyday.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Re: Valtane
I read somewhere (perhaps here) that any flaws in "Flashback" can be attributed to the nature of the virus in Tuvok's mind - he may have been unconciously combining memories of two different events - Valtane (as evidenced by Star Trek VI) shouldn't have died until later, and by saying "Oh, silly mind-sick Tuvok", you can overcome the inconsistencies as a mingling of memories.
Works for me.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Don't they mess up his rank, too? I always thought that in ST VI, he was suppossed to be first officer, and the novelisation (based on the script) bears that out. But in "Flashack", he's just a common or garden bridge officer, isn't he?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I thought Rand was always supposed to be the first officer... mainly because she was a more-established character than the random guy at the science station, for story purposes, rather than just a cameo where she got Uhura's job.
"They're Rand and Valtane! They're Rand and Valtane! One once got fired..."
*BLAM!*
Uh... nevermind. Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
*sigh* Use yer eyes, people...
Going by Star Trek VI, since "Flashback" is all f-ed up. Lt. j.g. Rand is a Communications Officer, and wears the same Sciences grey as Uhura, Chekov... and Lt. Cmdr. Valtane, who seems to be a Science Officer. I don't think either of them are department heads, but they could be. There were enough other uniform errors in that movie that I don't have any problem imagining they forgot Fletcher's system through II, III, and IV...
In front of Sulu are the Helmsman, Lt. Cmdr. Lojur, and an unnamed Command-division Lieutenant sitting at Navigation (which is wierd -- Navigation is part of the Science division and should be grey). From this there is not enough evidence to determine if one of these is Sulu's XO, or if the First Officer was on another shift entirely, or even simply off the bridge.
--Jonah
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Maybe it was Christian Slater, he said jocularly. . .
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Cute, Lee... Real cute.
--Jonah
P.S. That character is one that I'd actually like to see fleshed out in the novels...
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote: There is precedent. Sisko changed into a TNG style uniform when he went to Earth in "Homecoming".
And in "The Emissary", Dax and Bashir disembark from a science vessel, and wear the normal Class A uniform. Later, they change to the Class B. And IIRC, (almost?) all visiting Starfleet crew wore Class A, while DS9 crew wore Class B.
Question is, why was the entire Voyager crew wearing Class B uniforms? Not too mention the complete uniform chaos in Generations: "Yeah, sure, if it's got some red and some black, it's a command uniform! Computer, generate random uniform!"
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry:
quote: There is precedent. Sisko changed into a TNG style uniform when he went to Earth in "Homecoming".
And in "The Emissary", Dax and Bashir disembark from a science vessel, and wear the normal Class A uniform. Later, they change to the Class B. And IIRC, (almost?) all visiting Starfleet crew wore Class A, while DS9 crew wore Class B.
Question is, why was the entire Voyager crew wearing Class B uniforms? Not too mention the complete uniform chaos in Generations: "Yeah, sure, if it's got some red and some black, it's a command uniform! Computer, generate random uniform!"
IIRC Sisko wasn't visiting Earth, he was taking up a new posting at Starfleet security, so his uniform change makes a little more sense.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Has anyone here lived on a military base or served on a vessel where you've got (for simplicity's sake) two uniforms, one to wear when you're in a formal office setting and one to wear for normal grunge duty? I've seen it at work, so I don't have any problem seeing it at work in Trek.
--Jonah
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Maybe, but that doesn't quite seem to make sense with regards to Star Trek. How was Voyager and the Enterprise-D different?
Sisko wasn't given a permenant (cough) position at Starfleet security until after he'd arrived on Earth, so he must have just changed uniforms to look smarter.
Personally, I think that the captain of a ship/starbase/whatever got to chose which of the two uniforms his crew wore. And Picard, being a bit of a stick in the mud, made his crew stick to the more formal wear. At least until Generations, by which point he'd obviously started smoking a lot of dope and probably said, "Yeah, Will, wear whatever you want", completely missing that Will was asking him out. Or something. So some people changed, and some didn't.
But this doesn't really apply to the Bashir-changing issue, because it's obvious to everyone who isn't Peregrinus that the FC uniforms were a replacement for both the class-A and class-B uniforms. Therefore there'd be no reason for him to change into his out-of-date uniform when he had the new one in his closet.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
The Enterprise seemed to be acting in a very flagshippy manner up until Generations. Voyager started out by going into a nasty region of local space to try and dig out Federation renegades who didn't want to be dug out, and then spent the next seven years on their own and constantly getting the stuffing whacked out of them.
I don't find it odd that some higher-profile ships maintained a certain formality while others are entirely shirtsleeve. My closest friend at the last base I lived on was an EMT for the on-base hospital. In the two years I was there, I never saw him on duty in anything other than his BDUs.
I also find it entirely likely that the "fatigues" weren't considered a viable alternative duty uniform until the TNG scrubs gave way to the DS9 style. Nor do I find any problem with Starfleet going through a war and its aftermath in their "get dirty" uniforms. I didn't see a whole lot of class A's in Desert Storm.
In one of my odd moments of inspiration while I was rewriting the Nemesis script, I drafted a brief scene in Picard's quarters where he's putting away his dress uniform jacket, pauses at his old class A jacket, sighs, and says "I'm looking forward to being able to pull this out again...".
--Jonah
P.S. I'd like to apologize for going of of faulty info above. The Excelsior Navigator was a grey-shirted Commander, not a white-shirted Lieutenant. Someone mixed up the actors from Star Trek VI and "Flashback" in the only sites where I could find pics.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Best Uniform: Picard's jacketed version from "Darmok". Leather shoulders and all. Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I don't know about best ever, but yes -- really, really nice.
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Re: Valtane
I read somewhere (perhaps here) that any flaws in "Flashback" can be attributed to the nature of the virus in Tuvok's mind - he may have been unconciously combining memories of two different events - Valtane (as evidenced by Star Trek VI) shouldn't have died until later, and by saying "Oh, silly mind-sick Tuvok", you can overcome the inconsistencies as a mingling of memories.
Works for me.
So if we assume Voyager's writers all had some kind of virus, the series will actually be good?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Yes, but whenever Picard wore his leather and suede jacket, you just knew he was going to end up stranded on some planet or something.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Therefore there'd be no reason for him to change into his out-of-date uniform when he had the new one in his closet."
He had all his FC-style uniforms in his suitcase and he spilled raktajino all over the one he was wearing. So, rather than unpack, he just pulled out an old uniform.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I still stand by my theory, which is that they knew they'd have to provide clothes for him so just nabbed the replicator pattern for his uniform, not knowing it would change before they abducted him.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I never had a problem with the "Generations" uniforms. When the people soiled their initial shipboard Class As one way or the other, they consistently donned Class Bs (presumably to prepare for another soiling incident, as the Class B does look more "grease-tolerant"). This was less formal than during the run of TNG, but I'd not be surprised if the E-D actually lost flagship status between "AGT.." and "Generations". After which Picard gave a nod, and Riker yelled "Casual friday every day!"...
I don't have a problem with admirals in old uniforms in DS9, either. The top brass can afford the eccentricity. I do have a problem with the captain who accompanied the admiral, though.
And I don't really buy into the idea that the dark final DS9 style would be parallel to the TNG/VOY styles. But I would definitely have wanted to see two distinct types of the dark style. "First Contact" might not have needed two, and DS9 wouldn't have afforded one, but "Insurrection" could certainly have funded the introduction of a Class A version...
As for the problem of who commanded the E-nil for a year prior to the 18 months of refit, I'd simply say "nobody". Starfleet probably goes by the old real-world practice of decommissioning its ships when it idles them for major refitting. And the E-nil simply was decommissioned a year before the actual refit began, thus requiring no captain at all.
And most of those references to Captain Decker in TMP would simply be to "this guy of captain rank" anyway, not to "the ship's formal commanding officer".
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: I don't have a problem with admirals in old uniforms in DS9, either. The top brass can afford the eccentricity. I do have a problem with the captain who accompanied the admiral, though.
Yeah; ever seen two general/flag/air rank dressed the same?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Not in television at least. It's a dramatic convention that each hero wears a different uniform, both for fashion reasons and for identification. Heck, SG-1 ought to be example enough. (And boy, USAF uniforms are ugly! If I had the brass and the clout to dress differently, I'd do it whenever I could.)
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I hate the SG-1 uniforms. They don't even look like they'd be real USAF issue. But then, what do you give people to wear when crossing through a wormhole to explore strange new worlds and make contact with alien civilisations?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Or Decker could have been the administrative 'captain' of the E-nil undergoing refit, but was actually having it off stationed on Delta IV. The defacto 'commander' of the ship would probably be the Chief Engineer (Scotty) or some San Fransisco Yard guy.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
seeing as there was an actual scene in TMP where Kirk relieves Captain Decker of command of the Enterprise, and the aforementioned line 'he's been with this ship every minute of her refitting,' i don't see why there's need for discussion into the matter
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
There's apparently some overlap with his later claim of meeting Ilia while he was stationed on Delta IV.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
why couldnt he have met her when he was stationed on Delta before he was assigned as captain of the Enterprise.. they don't say when they met do they? hm?
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
quote:DECKER I was stationed on the Lieutenant's home planet some years ago...
Ilia looks from Kirk back to Decker, puzzled at his sleeve stripes.
ILIA (eyes his rank stripes) 'Commander' Decker?
KIRK Our Exec and Science Officer...
and she's surprised that he has been demoted to commander..
Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :
As for real life uniforms.
I'm in the US Navy. Destroyed a pair of khaki pants this morning moving stuff and switched to working blues (they are really black) for this afternoon. So, it could happen....
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: This was less formal than during the run of TNG, but I'd not be surprised if the E-D actually lost flagship status between "AGT.." and "Generations". After which Picard gave a nod, and Riker yelled "Casual friday every day!"...
Although that is a lovely image (although I shudder to think what dress-down Friday - for that is it's real name - would mean to Worf), it does rather fly in the face of the following:
"They're trying to figure out how a 22 year old Bird Of Prey can be a match for the flagship of the Federation."
(That's from memory, but I think I got the gist).
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
Right. I should have remembered that line about Decker being present all the time, presumably even before the actual refitting work on the ship. I could well imagine that Scotty didn't count in the time to disassemble the old ship, and maybe he didn't take part in that out sentimentality.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The two non-conflict versions vis-a-vis Decker's command here seem to be:
A)
-Capt Kirk commands until 2270, relinquishes the ship to Starfleet, gets a desk job. -Capt (or perhaps still Cmdr) Decker gets command in 2270, oversees 2.5 years of Enterprise operations which include 18 months of refitting *and an unspecified year of something else*. -Adm Kirk takes over, demotes and kicks out Decker in 2273.
B)
-Kirk commands until 2270, drops the E to Starfleet and gets a desk job. Ship either has no commanding officer for a year, or has some no-name commanding, or possibly has Scotty commanding. Or then Kirk commands, but doesn't get any "star hours" since the ship is dormant. -Capt/Cmdr Decker gets the ship in 2271, oversees 18 months of refitting but nothing else. -Kirk takes over again in 2273.
Whether there is any point in arguing which of these took place is another matter. The original question was about this, though, wasn't it? There is no conflict in any case, but there is ambiguity.
The third possible variant is the one where much more than 2.5 years transpire between TOS and TMP. Add a second five-year mission, or some other adventures, as you please.
Also, I stand corrected on the E-D flagship status. We have to think of another excuse for the dress-down Friday.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
RE: Out-of-date uniforms....
Nearly the entire series of TNG (if not, the first 4(ish) years) was composed of a crew of mixed-style uniforms...the unitards and the two-piece suits. Then, on top of that there was Picards vest, which I suppose is equivocal to Kirks green wrap-around in TOS.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
and the two months seemed like days...)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)