Flitting around from planet to planet each episode has been a mainstay of most Trek series - TOS, TNG, VOY, ENT. The one series that focused on one region of space and the nearby worlds - Bajor, Cardassia, the Dominion - is widely regarded as the best Trek in terms of stories told.
It makes sense that for the next series (if there is to be one), that some sort of combination of the two types of series (mobile and stationary) might work very well.
Hence, a concept idea for "Star Trek: Series VI."
The premise of the show is that it takes place on a starship. However, we don't go from planet to planet every episode. The show relies on arc-writing, and we find our focus devoted over a series of episodes to a specific region or planet.
For example, an eight-episode arc might focus on our USS Starship arriving at a world which has recently ended a civil war. Our brave crew, led by Captain Courageous, is here to assist the planetary government while Federation relief force travels to the planet. One episode focuses on our good Captain attempting to unite the two quarelling leaders and convince them of the Federation's honorable intentions before the civil war is renewed. Another episode might feature Doctor Bloody leading a medical mission to an epidemic ravaged continent to attempt to stop a plague, while another focuses on Security Chief Lt. Manly-Man attempting to determine if a local sheriff is in fact responsible for a series of murders of political dissidents. Yet another episode could feature XO Beardly taking the ship out of orbit to hunt down an Orion pirate raiding incoming freighters.
The format would still allow for the occasional one-shot planet episode, but I think that by featuring large arcs following a larger overall story, the show would break the typical Trek mold while keeping (and hopefully attracting) a larger audience.
Posted by Brian Whisenhunt (Member # 1095) on :
How about a starship getting trapped in time and emerging to find the entire galaxy has gone "Logan's Run" and degenerated to barely warp capable planets that have forgotten their past and.....Oh wait......Sore-bo's already RUINING that storyline......
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
As I understand it, the Andromeda concept was actually pitched to Paramount as a Trek concept, before being turned into a non-Trek series. I might be wrong.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
This sounds like a pretty good concept....
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
A series of Trek miniseries... that sounds like an interesting idea, actually.
Although IMO that could easily get a bit too formulaic, and ultimately be subject to the same flaws you find in the other ship-based shows. Basically, what made DS9 great (in my view, anyway) was the LONG TERM nature of the arc. We met Winn Adami as a sneering, scheming Vedek in the season one finale, then she got elected Kai a year later, and after being Sisko's main Bajoran adversary for a few years had to come and ask him for his help. (I'll ignore the final chapter in this post, thank you very much.)
Even though the "miniseries" idea is intriguing, it still doesn't allow for the kind of long-term changes to develop in the show. And that's what's important -- the changes. You really can't address major changes in plot or character in an eight-episode arc. Or at least, not such major changes to non-main characters that are still going to be left behind at the end of that block of episodes.
Despite my criticism, though, I'm not saying that your story idea is at all bad. I'm just suggesting that it may not fully address the problems that you're trying to solve with this concept. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Such an idea could probably be taken a step further, and play off the popularity of the show "24". Each season could deal with a single event (not necessarily one day, but perhaps a week or a month or so).
[ October 06, 2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: TSN ]
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
and possibly focus on a few wnsigns and crewbeings and how all of the things happening affect and change them.
Anyone else tired of the same 'senoir staff' BS?
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
Shows like "24", "Alias", "The Shield" and "The Sopranos" keep the core cast and then have peripheral characters rotate in broad arcs around that cast. They have no problems killing off these peripheral characters however (and even the occasional main character). I think it adds drama in that when you put the cast in peril you don't know that they will somehow escape unscathed. Someone might actually die for a change. In the long arcs they introduce these characters in you can develope a pretty good appreciation for there personalities and even come to like them, then boom, they're dead.
I like your idea Snay. A good premise may be a "Starfleet Pathfinders" group who are the first responders on scene in any unusual circumstance that can't be handled by local authorities. The core group which consist of specialists in a wide variety of fields; diplomacy, law enforcement, Special Forces, medical, intelligence, etc. can be supplemented by specialists in specific fields related to the mission itself. These extra crew would only last as long as the arc required them and for the purposes of drama would be expendable. If one of them generates positive fan feedback, they can be bumped up to regular crew.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye this: A story with far reaching consequenses told each season from a new crew/ship/starbase's P.O.V.
Like watching the Dominion War first from the viewpoint of a ship on a exploration turned warfare mission then the next season starting fresh with a new cast and crew living the same timeframe but experiencing it from a diffrent perspective....each season would lead up to some climatic battle or event as a cliffhanger. Each season would reveal a bit more about whats going on and you'd have to actually THINK about the story. Like what X-Files could have been, I guess. The last season would tie all the others together and be a big finalle.
Mabye even have a season from the enemy's perspective.
The Dominion War from the Dominion alliance's perspective would rock.
This idea probably would work better as a book series I guess....hmmmm...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Something just post-Nemesis would be cool too. I'd love to see the Romulans get the development that the Bajorans did on DS9.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I don't have much confidence in network television to produce a Star Trek series with the kind of creativity you're talking about. "24" blows me away and I think I will remember it for a long time as the last truly original network television concept. Even with "24", though, FOX tried to get them to serialize the second season, to make it more like other television shows.
Network execs and creative storytelling do not mix well. They play to the masses and people in general get bored very quickly. That said, I'd love to see a Trek series produced by Showtime or something.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
M.M.,
True, you probably wouldn't have the same satisfaction with development of characters like Wynn over the run of seven years, but even a year-long arc focusing on one particular planet would result in a larger satisfaction at the end of the season then would the typical Trekian "okay, we got here forty-minutes ago, time to warp out."
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: ...but even a year-long arc focusing on one particular planet would result in a larger satisfaction at the end of the season then would the typical Trekian "okay, we got here forty-minutes ago, time to warp out."
Oh, unquestionably. I'm just saying that what made DS9 especially attractive for me was the full seven-year development of the secondary and tertiary characters. But your idea definitely has merit, and I'd actually be interested in reading it if you ever publish online.
Might as well mention it here rather than start a different thread, but there's another format that offers some interesting possibilities for Trek -- the anthology television series. Of course it presents a bunch of problems all its own, but IMO it's also got some pretty interesting possibilities. Kinda like a decently-written fanfic about original characters each week (rather than the usual 'shipper tripe that's out there). An online acquaintance of mine tried to organize an anthology series like that. Unfortunately, he's not working on it anymore. Fortunately, he's writing for Renaissance now.
(I don't want to steal your topic, Snay, just figured it was relatively pertinent...)
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: As I understand it, the Andromeda concept was actually pitched to Paramount as a Trek concept, before being turned into a non-Trek series. I might be wrong.
I was following the links in that size comparison chart thread over in S&T, and happened across this little tidbit:
quote:Q: And Wasn't Dylan Hunt a character in a crappy 1970's TV movie?
A: Er, yes. In the period between the cancellation of Star Trek and the revival as a theatrical movie series, Gene Roddenberry worked on several short-lived projects. Two of these were pilot episodes for proposed TV series that didn't pan out. The 1973 TV-Movie Genesis II was such a pilot episode, and it did indeed feature a lead character named Dylan Hunt, who wakes up 300 years in the future, and tries to restore civilization in a world gone mad. The very-similar "Planet Earth" had a similar plot and also had a lead character named Dylan Hunt. Since neither pilot movie became a series, and both were created by Gene Roddenberry, who also created Andromeda, it's not really plagarism. You can't steal from yourself. Rumor has it that one of the proposals for the series that eventually became "Star Trek: The Next Generation" was for a Federation Starship called the U.S.S. Andromeda to be frozen in time for 300 years, then emerge to find that the Federation had been destroyed by a civil war launched by the genetically-engineered descendants of Khan Noonian Singh, followed by a Klingon invasion. Another proposal, which shared some of the same elements, would have been for a series about the first Warp-Capable starship and the original founding of the Federation, and this proposal eventually led (after many modifications) to the current series Enterprise.
Aside from the fact that Khan and his followers were totally vaporized in the explosion of the Genesis Device, that's actually a pretty intriguing idea. I'm surprised!
I gotta say, though, that execution aside, the Magog are a helluva lot more interesting and menacing than the Klingons...
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
MM,
Another concept that I thought about was a Hornblower type deal(think of what A&E has been doing), where we follow one person through a series of TV movies and/or miniseries at various steps in his career - i.e., the first movie features him or her as a cadet facing some troubles, then later as a junior officer, and so on up to becoming a starship captain. There would be room for recurring roles (think of Hornblower's Lt. Bush), and the nature of the series would allow for a "survey" of, for example, the 24th century - starting just prior to TNG (perhaps a miniseries focusing on the Cardassian Wars), through the Dominion War, and to the return of Voyager (and beyond). They wouldn't neccessarily have to focuses exclusively on events we heard mentioned on DS9/TNG/VOY, but the format would provide for the expansion of certain themes.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
Some really good ideas put forth in this thread. The mini-arc idea is good from a financial viewpoint, as you can amortize visualizing the aliens and their culture over several shows. And the last idea, the Hornblower 'glimpses of a life' notion, is even more appealing. I just think these notions lend themselves to a NON-trek universe, one with more richness and texture and less technobabble.
One reason I like these ideas of yours is that I came up with stuff along these same lines, but for an AntiTrek zerobudget film series I tried making myself (in super8 and 16mm) back in the 80s called CRITICAL ORBIT, one that was a more practical-minded universe than Trek but paid a lot of hommage to the Hornblower character-driven aspect. Ran out of money before we could finish it, but in the 90s I reworked it on paper as a series concept (bible plus 40 story outlines) for a disenfranchised career military guy who winds up a privateer-type, and still think it'd be a great way to go if HBO ever got behind the idea of doing a serious SF series.
One last thought about how to reinvent Trek: just saw a newspaper ad for Tarantino's KILL BILL that includes the tag line:
revenge is a dish best served cold - old klingon proverb
THAT guy could really give Trek a shot in the arm, and it wouldn't be a shot of novacaine like Berman&co seem intent on pumping into audiences.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Either of the ideas (miniseries or Hornblower) sounds good to me. A longer episode format may also help; the ITV version of Hornblower has each story in two hour long parts- that might help with character development, etc.
The Hornblower format is one that I've thought would work well in Trek for some time; it would allow more of the Trek universe to be seen, as well as increasing the number of possible storylines.
Of course, the whole thing would depend on the quality of writing.... Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Imagine some of the past episodes that should have been longer....
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Snay, that's a killer idea. I like the idea of it starting just pre-TNG and running up through post Voyager events. We'd get to revisit all the TNG time periods with a new twist on things.
They could even do a "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead" type deal where the focus character(s) intersect with major events in the other series. Maybe they're at Wolf 359 or the First Contact Borg invasion. There would be room for new ships, old friends, and a much wider view of the eras we've already seen.
The characters could change ranks and positions which would give us new settings all the time. They could even jump ahead 10 years in the course of a couple of episodes.
Man... already this idea is better then NBC's entire Fall lineup...
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
Major problem:
Fans will criticize the capabilities of the new Captain if he takes more than 1hr to solve any problem (Kirk could do it...).
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
This old series idea might be workable in that multi-episode arc scenario...
quote:STAR TREK: EMPIRE'S END
*I want to start off by admitting that the concept of this story is shockingly similar to that of the New Frontier books by Peter David. However, I came up with the idea independently, before I ever read those books. Truthfully.*
It's a years after the events in Dominion War. Not long after Nemesis.
The Romulan Empire, having used up most of its military resources during the War, and with its governmental structure (both the Senate and those who tried to usurp power) largely destroyed and, due to its isolationism, not being able to economically and politically recoup, has collapsed.
The Romulans have split into several squabbling factions, each of which is trying to gain power in its own way, including: --- Old Imperialists -- Other Reman Insurgents --- The Tal Shiar --- The Unificationists --- Petty Warlords and Pirates
The Orion Syndicate is moving in.
Various and sundry planets that were previously Romulan-subjugated worlds with servitor people, are rebelling, some seeking simply independence, some seeking to startup their own little Empires.
The mysterious unknown powers on the other side of Romulan space (What I assumes the Romulans to mean in "The Neutral Zone" when they spoke of 'matters of greater urgency caused our absence') are making subtle moves and overtures.
Into this cauldron, as an attempt to help create a little stability, while simultaneously gathering information in space that was previously a no-go area, the Federation flings our heroes' starship, either a veteran of the Dominion Wars, or a ship that was constructed shortly thereafter. The older members of the crew are War veterans, the newer ones not much more than cadets. (This would reflect the losses suffered)
They are guided through this space by a Romulan or two on board, possibly including a Garaklike character (cross Garak and Neelix?), any or both of whom may have agendas of their own.
Posted by leuckinc (Member # 729) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: Snay, that's a killer idea. I like the idea of it starting just pre-TNG and running up through post Voyager events. We'd get to revisit all the TNG time periods with a new twist on things.
I really like this idea... If needed you could even bring in CApt. Baldy, Data, Worf or any of the other person you want and just use them for a second or 2 and continue on with the story.
The story plots could lead into or continue with the TNG era storys (like more of BoBW, the clean up of the E-D, looking in the bad lands to see WFT happened to voyger, ect...)
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
Idea 1. One idea that I've been suggesting is a variation of the old NBC Mystery Movie from the 1970s. For those of you who can still remember, this was a series made of four separate subseries, each of which had a 90-minute episode every third of fourth week. The subseries included, if memory serves, Columbo, McCloud, and McMillan and Wife (and something else). What Trek could do with the format is set each subseries in a different time period or location, but maybe have some sort of element appear in each subseries -- a character, like a Trill, a particular family, an artifact, or a location. If one subseries turned out to be better or more popular, it could be "promoted" to a weekly 60-minute series. If a subseries stunk, it could be dropped. You could also have limited cross-overs between subseries or even mega-arcs spanning subseries.
Idea 2. As done by the "New Odd Couple" in the 1980s ( http://us.imdb.com/title/tt0083454/ ), use the scripts of the original "Star Treki" but recast the show with blacks or other ethnic/racial groups.
Idea 3. "Trek Rock!" Instead of speaking dialogue, all the characters sing!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Ideas #2-3 earn you a fiery place in hell, you know that don't you? Don't be suprised, you really brought it on yourself, Masao. Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
C'mon, "Trek Rock" needs to be greenlit this minute.
Instead of fighting with torpedoes and phasers the crews would beam down to a planet and go all "West Side Story" on eachother. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: Snay, that's a killer idea. I like the idea of it starting just pre-TNG and running up through post Voyager events. We'd get to revisit all the TNG time periods with a new twist on things.
I dunno. The problem with a lot of these ideas is that they very much play to the mroe dedicated fan. The other 90% of the fanbase will be left cold. You think that they'll care what Ensign Flibbyblob thinks about Voyager coming home? They'll want to see him out there doing things, not reacting to things.
Ritten: And that's the reason why a series focussing on "Lower Decks" characters wouldn't work, either. Senior officers make stuff happen. They command the ship. They talk to the aliens. They DO things. The runts below decks just run around, fix things, have dinner, and don't speak when on camera so they don't have to be payed. A series that docussed on them would have to be a glorified soap opera.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Well, that would be the writing challenge... making the things we didn't see in and around the major events interesting. Maybe Lt. Commander Billy Bo (at this point) was on the Prometheus when Voyager came home. Maybe something exciting happened right before that event that we never got to see.
In actuality, very little of the series would revolve around these events, but they would tie in heavily in places. We could see the lead up to things, maybe months in advance. Or the aftermath of events that extend months farther than where TNG or DS9 left off.
Most of the series would be it's own stuff, simpoly taking place in those time periods, but every once in a while they would connect to familiar events. I'm not saying it would be easy to do... but it could be really good.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Make it a small action team, a team leader, ensign or LTjg, an assistant, a chief, a couple of medics, a couple of engineers, a couple of biologists, a couple of xenologists, and a couple of something else, for a team of 12. Give them a run-about to zip about in, and for longer trips have them hook up with a starship. This group can interact with the various species of the galaxy, kind of like a second contact group. This can show the species of the arc/season graw along with the characters. Kind of like the one book where Kirk stops the first nuke exchange and limits the second, then meets the big planet eating thing. Or Data's little friend with the devested planet....
The idea would work without everyone being on the senoir staff, as low level crewbeing whatever can be in contact with planetary/rebel leader somename to pull a sliver out of his little toe...
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by First of Two: They are guided through this space by a Romulan or two on board, possibly including a Garaklike character (cross Garak and Neelix?), any or both of whom may have agendas of their own.
Talk about going from the sublime to the ridiculous... Posted by Brian Whisenhunt (Member # 1095) on :
Why not just have a crew get jumped to the alternate universe from "Mirror, Mirror" and then of course the framistatic-doohickey effect make it impossible to cross back. Then they could hook up with the peaceful Romulans to try and subvert the Evil Vulcan influence on the empire. You can bring back all the old characters for one-shots as "Bad-dude-Bad-dude!" and see what may have been. Building the federation out of an Empire going down. Somewhat like a Harry Seldon/Tranto/Foundation thing.
OF course then they would have Verhoevan direct it and blow it all to Qo'nos like he ruined Starship Troopers.
Posted by TorgaDaxIV (Member # 617) on :
they should just bring back ds9!!!!!
i would settle for a post-tng/ds9 series though.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Hmmm.... A Mirror Universe series... that's actually not a bad idea.
It could be like Kid Video or Dungeons and Dragons where they were always trying to find a way back home, but ended up getting side tracked and very little of the series ended up having to do with getting home.
And pretty much anything would go. Only a couple bits of continuity to worry about. You'd have a group of normal Humans trying to maintain their ideals in an entire galaxy of chaos. My fear would be that, to do the MU justice, they'd have to do things that Paramount would be far to squeamish to do with Star Trek.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Honestly, "dark" Star Treks are rarely very popular with the general audience. There's a segment of the fanbase that likes it, and which likes war stories, etc. But my gut instinct is the mass audience necessary for the success of such a series is never going to be interested in evil parallel universes, Klingons, etc. Honestly, I'D not be interested in such things.
I'd like to see a discussion about what TOS and TNG are in the general populace the most popular shows, while DS9, Voyager and Enterprise haven't grab similar mass cultural attention. Sure, both TOS and TNG appeared when there was a relative dearth of SF programming and less TV options, but I suspect on some level there's something about those two shows that the others lack.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: It could be like Kid Video or Dungeons and Dragons where they were always trying to find a way back home, but ended up getting side tracked and very little of the series ended up having to do with getting home.
You mean like Voyager? Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan:
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: It could be like Kid Video or Dungeons and Dragons where they were always trying to find a way back home, but ended up getting side tracked and very little of the series ended up having to do with getting home.
You mean like Voyager?
I cant believe you used both "Kid Video" and "Dungeons & Dragons" as the basis your making your point.
I'd call you an Uber-Geek, if I had'nt wasted so many saturady mornings watching the same crap... Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
Recently, there seems to be two camps of thought on series VI going about fandom, both based on the recent rumors. Among those rumors are Shatner's possible ideas in regards to a Trek revival and Harve Bennet's recent interview on what Trek needs to do to reinvent itself.
One is a Starfleet Academy-like series with late-teen Kirk and Spock coming together for a Young Sherlock Holmes/Smallville adventure. The other is a complete reboot of the original series.
In order for a young Kirk and Spock series to succeed, however, it needs to be focused not on their academy years (SA 90210?) but rather their early, post-academy years, adventures. An "Early Voyages," if you will that shows how the two men evolved into the men we met in WNMHB.
There is no reference, that I know of, that negates the possibility that Kirk and Spock knew each other before TOS. In WNMHB, there seems to be some-kind of rapport, albiet a slightly antagonistic one.
It would be more daring if the "Early Voyages" idea would show Kirk and Spock's lives seperate from one another and only intersecting for brief periods.
A reboot, ala the constant revisions to such pop heros as Superman and Batman, is one a great deal of fans seem to be against. It is, however, bound to happen. Even in 1979, after TMP was made it was predicted that a day would come (in the Making of TMP book by Susan Suckett and Gene Roddenberry) when Kirk and Spock would be portrayed by actors other than Shatner and Nimoy.
I would suggest, rather than rebooth the old show that a new series be constructed around the original 13 page series treatment that Roddenberry wrote in 1963/4. It can be found here Star Trek Pitch.
Instead of a new Kirk, there'd be Robert April with a slightly different version of the Spock we know at his side. There'd also be a strong female first officer who'd be the perfect counterpoint to the overly burdened commanding officer.
It could be used as a jumping point with a few alterations to bring the idea a little more up-to-date.
In any case, a new Trek series needs to abandon the sci-fi cliches that burden current Trek for more daring personal drama and hard sf concepts.
M.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
"RECENTLY"? You think these two "camps" for the next series are recent???
I've been reading these same ideas recycled over and over for the past five years, and that's only since I've been paying attention to fandom rumors! That silly "Starfleet Academy" idea is probably as old as I am...
Face it: there aren't many ideas at all that are really worthy of being called "new" anymore... not to any reasonable extent, anyway.
Posted by Brian Whisenhunt (Member # 1095) on :
Having just read the Great Bird's premise.....I wonder if the last crewperson would have been named RIPLEY!?!?!
Posted by Middy Seafort (Member # 951) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: "RECENTLY"? You think these two "camps" for the next series are recent???
I've been reading these same ideas recycled over and over for the past five years, and that's only since I've been paying attention to fandom rumors! That silly "Starfleet Academy" idea is probably as old as I am...
Face it: there aren't many ideas at all that are really worthy of being called "new" anymore... not to any reasonable extent, anyway.
I know that those ideas aren't brand spankin' new and are probably rotten with mold. Should've said once again making the rounds of fandom. Those ideas are once again being bounced around on the other BBS.
New ideas, I'm full of them. Or is that bullsh*t? Same difference.
M.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
An idea occured to me last night while listening to a Styx CD, a Miss Federation Pageant.... c. 2400
Posted by Brian Whisenhunt (Member # 1095) on :
Star Trek VI:
The President of the UFP is brought up on charges of incompetence. His leading opponents are Hugh Borg from the opposition party and Busta Full Monty from his own party who wants turn the UFP into his own collective. Of course there is an Orion slave girl named mare'i car'i who also wants to hold "The office". Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
How to make a good Star Trek series: "Hey, here is a neat idea that requires the Star Trek mythos to tell."
How to make a bad one: Well, anything else, in my opinion.
Having said that, what I would be watching in Universe Perfect: Star Trek: West Wing.
Star Trek: Quentin Tarentino would be like Star Trek: Hot Sauce In The Eyes. I mean, like, that is not where it is supposed to go, you know?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"How to make a good Star Trek series: 'Hey, here is a neat idea that requires the Star Trek mythos to tell.'"
So, you're saying no such thing as a good Trek series exists, then?
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
Around the time of TREK III, Shatner said Trek needed more 'dirt under the fingernails and real steel clanging doors.' I thin he was right, and QT is the kind of guy who would deliver that (not in this reality where Berman controls and pisses on everything, but maybe in some better Mirror universe where NASA was more like Major Matt Mason ...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm having difficulty unpacking your question, Tim. Are you suggesting that every Star Trek episode could have been produced for some other show just by filing off the serial numbers? Because that's the kind of non-specifity that I was getting at. If someone has a neat idea for a science fiction show that doesn't really need to be Star Trek, she or he (and the viewers) would be much better off if they just made a new show. See: Why Media Tie-In Novels Are Bad And Evil.
I mean, OK, obviously with enough tweaking you can turn any story into any other story. But let's be reasonable.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by TorgaDaxIV: they should just bring back ds9!!!!!
i would settle for a post-tng/ds9 series though.
Seconded.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Simon: But there is no story that requires itself to be set in the Trek universe. The only arguement that could be made would be if the story said "Captain Kirk does such-and-such" or "the Federation blah blah". But, just change the names, and it isn't Trek anymore.
Seriously, name a single plot that could not possibly take place outside Trek. Without using proper names.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Uh, the majority of all Star Trek episodes? Those plot elements you named are not just names. Things have meanings and histories and weight. If I tell a story about a German soldier in 1941 you've already got a whole mountain of information to draw from. And if I tell a story about a German soldier in 1941 who isn't fighting for the Nazis that implies a whole other set of information about my story. (Like, it's alternate history, or something else along those lines.)
Now, I will admit that there's a difference between doing this before a series starts and after its been going awhile, because much of this is dependant upon characters. But even if we disagree on the details you have to concede that there is something (or more likely, a diffuse cloud of somethings whose borders we cannot agree upon) that makes Star Trek Star Trek, as opposed to Friends, or ER, or Battlestar Galactica, or The X-Files, or any other show. Things have a nature, and my point is that doing another Star Trek show for the sole purpose of having one on the air, rather than because you have a story that needs to be Star Trek for some reason or set of reasons, is a terrible way to do things. We've already seen this criticism leveled at each new incarnation since TOS, and though I disagree that this has been the sole motive force behind any of the series so far, that doesn't mean it isn't a bad thing.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
So, in essence, you think a story should always be restricted to its own natural habitat (for lack of a better term), or, more categorically, that a show should only feature plots that can't be told on any other series?
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
There ARE certain kinds of stories that work best in the Trek universe, and maybe should ONLY be in the Trek universe. THE CHASE, the most TOS-like of TNG with its conclusion, might seem laughable in any other universe, but after decades of face-slop humanoids in Trek, THE CHASE was a story that worked with and built on that hoary dollar-saving gimmick (and is a story that SHOULD have been the TNG feature film debut.)
But most of the time, good stories transcend their genre. SOME stories require a particular setting to work best, but the elements to tell a story right don't necessarily all have to be retained when reworking an idea.
I just remembered: Harlan Ellison did a very good annihilation of OUTLAND, showing how it failed utterly with the way it tried to take HIGH NOON and transplant it, by pointing out that the rough & ready types who would have been on IO would have included plenty of folks who WOULD have stood up to the bad boss, but the logic of the situation was ignored in the screenplay in favor of a slavish retelling of HIGH NOON, with Connery/Cooper standing nearly alone. It is in his volume AN EDGE IN MY VOICE if anybody's interested.
Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
'the chase' was fine as a non-trek story.. ~* an archaeologist has secret information about an ages old puzzle, several warring political powers have to cooperate, making a scientific discovery about the beginning of civilization *~
the Trek thing about it was that they were parodying their own propensity for humanoids by creating a common humanoid alien forebearer
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
But as Simon said, any story can become any other story by changing a few details. Im sure you could transplant, say, "Rightful Heir" into the modern day, fiddle with some details, and end up with a story about a Catholic who loses faith, but then sees Jesus, except it isn't really Jesus, but someone just like him who believes that he is Jesus that the church has raised and nurtured to make people believe in Jesus again, and then there'd be wacky adventures. And so forth.
Er, anyway, it's not just a case of "can this story be told in another medium", but "does it work as well in another medium, does it work better as a Trek story", and so forth. "Arena" is a highly praised TOS show, even though the original story came from a non-Trek sorce. But by putting in in the Trek mold, having the humans be evolved, nice people who try and get along with everyone, is the story improved?
Also: Bullshit.
Also also: WNMHGB.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by Capped in Mic: 'the chase' was fine as a non-trek story.. ~* an archaeologist has secret information about an ages old puzzle, several warring political powers have to cooperate, making a scientific discovery about the beginning of civilization *~
the Trek thing about it was that they were parodying their own propensity for humanoids by creating a common humanoid alien forebearer
It may have been 'fine' as a nontrek, but ... it had particular relevance as a trek story because of the common humanoid aspect. I don't think of it as parody in the slightest, it is more like an ultimate justification, one that DOES NOT (unlike most other ModernTrek) require them to piss all over what has gone before.
Equally important IMO, it demonstrated the kind of speculative thinking I associate with some really good Trek (the kind of thinking that is always in the minority, regardless of which series you talk about.)
One thing I remember Bennett or Winter saying about Trek 5 was that Star Trek is maybe the only franchise where you could say, 'tonight we go to see God' and at least some of the audience will think, 'okay this is trek, I'll stick for the ride.' It is because of the way Trek is (or was) thought of that Trek would have license to explore in certain areas and even push into stuff that would be beyond ludicrous on another show (half-white half-black, etc.)
As Little Enterprise waddles on (at least at the point when I gave up on the show, in fall 2002), they seemed to be telling stories that had no beyond-the-plot aspects, no resonances being struck, so the sticking power of the stories was about on par with something like MATLOCK ... they had no feel of Trek. That's why it is easy now to embrace FIREFLY or FARSCAPE, as those shows at least demonstrate some inventive thinking as well as craftsmanship in the storytelling.
If you're not going to be trek-like, why not at least be inventive and compelling and paint vivid characters? ModernTrek, outside of the odd TNG and a good hunk of DS9, doesn't deliver much that is special or compelling OR Treklike, so it is easy to see reasons for the viewer base to dwindle just on that basis alone.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
Another whole aspect (more on thread subject than my last rant) is that lots of stories can't be told in the Trek universe.
If you want to explore Heisenberg in a meaningful way, in terms of how observing a subject (even from hiding) affects said subject and taints the results of the study, then you can't tell that story on Trek, because Trek seems to honestly believe in this nonesense about non-interference. Yet on a quantum level, there is no such thing as non-interference if you've still got a scope aimed at race. Trek will lipservice real science by having a 'heisenberg compensator' in the technospeak, but will it allow a legit science idea to drive or modify the storytelling? Not often enough, and not always in an appropriate way, at least IMO.
The idea that you could actually enforce a hands-off directive when there are privateers and maybe even races of privateer-types (if you go to century 24 and put the Ferengi in there) means that any PrimeDiirective system would still get poached by folks, unless you had starships surrounding each system to stave off encroachment. Starfleet's fulltime job would be keeping poachers from exploiting pre-FC worlds. But you just have to blithely ignore reality-related issues like this, or if you want to explore them, you need to do so in another universe, one that has at least a passing resemblance to ours.
Half the stories I'd like to tell are paths not taken with Trek, but the other half involve seeing genuine consequences (i.e., fallout) from the kinds of stories that do get told incompletely on Trek.
Maybe that is what infuriates me about a lot of Trek ... from 87 on, they had the ideal platform for delivering entertainment that reached a lot of receptive folks, entertainment that could touch on some good real-world issues, but squandered that enormous advantage over other shows in favor of Berman's dubious sense of taste and decorum (read that as the path usually taken being in the middle-of-the-road, safe, with the camera almost never handheld and with everything way too well-exposed to communicate a sense of atmosphere or mood), flavored with occasional bursts of brilliance from others playing in his yard.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
And it's such a fun and popular yard to play in. Is it really any wonder so much fan-fic centers on the most popular science fiction series ever? The truth is that Star Trek can be used as a sort of test-bed for story ideas. Kind of like Lego, you know? These interlocking bits of characters, settings and ships let a writer focus on a story and all they've got to do is assemble it out of these pre-made parts.
I'm speaking from experience as it's taken me literally years to develop the language, science, peoples and politics of my own show. And the frustrating thing is that so few people know this background that half the time I wind up comparing it to Trek anyway. I mean if I tell you a story wherein Worf and Data sneak over the ridge to kill 30+ Romulan sentries so that the away team can make it back to the shuttle, and Riker is still in some kind of coma because he touched that artifact, and now Worf is bleeding out pretty bad but won't let the doc touch him, and Geordi knows more about that thing in the big black case than he's telling, you all have a fairly decent picture in your heads about what's happening there. You understand those characters, you can fill in the blanks. It's certainly a far more vivid and more fleshed out one than you would if I'd simply subtituted my characters names and said that it isn't Romulans but local guerrillas and it's a Unity Marine Dropship not a shuttle. So it's easier to prototype a story that way. Star Trek provides a means, with built-in technologies, vehicles, technobabble and characters for you to focus on telling a good story. It's just a shame so few of those actually writing for Enterprise take advantage of this fact.
I for one would be very curious to hear some of the ideas you pitched kmart. Even though you have a very silly name, it sounds as though you understand (as do many of posters on this board) the various ways in which Star Trek has fallen short. What is more dramatic is that it sounds as though you've taken direct action to stop this dull slide into mediocrity the enterprise (sorry) has taken.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
Well, the username is just a condensed version of my actual name. When I was in retail mgmnt in the 80s, I had to sign a lot of documents. My actual sig got shorter and shorter till I found I was signing KMART -- which was funny cuz that company had just bought up the chain (WaldenBooks) I was managing for at the time.
So the sig means nothing (maybe I should re-register everywhere as Trevanian to plug my favorite novelist, or do something more personal with it?), it is just easy to remember.
The notion you mention of using Trek as a kind of test-bed for ideas is interesting ... but the thing is, once you deviate significantly from it, some folks (the ones who haven't read sf and lots of the ones for whom Trek and SW are their only tie-ins to the genre) get a blank or confused expression. These are oftentimes the folks who see the future in speculative fiction as two narrow paths: one is BladeRunner/RoadWarrior and the other is Trek: dystopia or utopia.
I've had people jump my case just over the 'ridiculing the PD issue' because they somehow think that the prime directive is real ... probably the same folks who reject a movie with a violent robot because they think Asimov's laws of robotics should be in force in the real world.
I really enjoyed FIREFLY in spite of some science issues just because I completely bought into the people ... I found more of a sense of humanity in ONE dining room scene (and there were several on that short-lived show) on that series than in the fifty or sixty hours of VOYAGER I sat down to watch and the couple dozen Little Enterprises I tried.
And while lots of folks nailed FF on the science, more seemed to reject it on the WESTERN basis, because it seemed, I guess, retrograde, to them. They see a space show and figure, 'EVERYTHING has to advance,' and I sure don't see evidence of that, certainly not a linear, 'if this goes on' advance.
Go back to the 50s and 60s and everybody KNEW we'd have robots doing the laundry by 2001 ... no, instead we have personal computers, but MerryMaids is prospering.
It is much easier for me to buy into a future that isn't some NASA like projection, but instead one that includes elements of that along with ones that seem pulled in from another era, because stuff doesn't just all advance at the same rate. The one thing I had in my CRITICAL ORBIT (antiTrek) universe that points this up is that they have hyperdrive, but they don't have much in the way of orthodontics ... you have to put 15 years of military service in to qualify for getting your teeth fixed, or be independently wealthy, because it was just something where various slowboat colonizing ships in previous centuries didn't carry enough of these guys and it became a lost skill in large part across several systems. (Wasn't ever gonna explain it in that detail, but figured it would be a great way to cast 'real' looking people rather than actors.)
Another idea, one that wasn't as thought out, was that the longer you stayed in hyperdrive, the COLDER it would get. Instead of heat build-up, the energy gets leached into otherspace or whatever you call it. Wouldnt' be an issue on Republic ships, but on a privateer that didn't have enough heat sinks, it could get problemantic. Main idea for this was that it would give an excuse (paltry, but hey!) for folks to have to get into pea jackets at times, and visually you could justify the 'bundled up on the bridge of an old destroyer at night' feel ... while anachronistic, it would give some of that BEDFORD INCIDENT kind of feel to some ship scenes.
None of this is worldshaking stuff, but it is also stuff that will NEVER appear on Trek. Maybe at some point around 90 or so I decided on a subconscious level to take the trek perspective and invert it automatically, figuring any different approach might be more interesting ... to me anyway!
That's probably why I think the future of Trek should have been the E-B ... I think redeeming Capt. Harriman and the good name of the Enterprise-B (which I postulate would have had its lettering and numeric designation burned off in disgrace after the GEN prologue) in an era I found inherently more interesting than century 24 (end of frontier Kirk era is like a sf equivalent to westerns like WILD BUNCH and BITE THE BULLET that are set early in the 20th century, so you have the inherent conflict between old era and new, which is good storytelling IMO.)
I even sent a letter to Nimoy at the beginning of 1995 suggesting if he wanted to 'save' trek, he should go to Paramount and offer to do a limited series apart from Berman, something along these lines that was set in the last years of 23rd Century. Never got a reply or acknowledgement so I don't know if he got it, but I felt good about trying (and I still think it is the right era ... for sweeps weeks, you could bring in surviving TOS members for guest appearances, and occasionally 'cross over' to other ships like EXCELSIOR.)
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I agree the turn-of-the-century series idea is a good one. We've gone from pushing back the boundaries of knowledge, and now we're empire-building. Lot of potential for the ethical conflict of manifest destiny vs. laissez-faire in starship captains and Federation officials. The Klingons have been staggered and are no longer an immediate threat. The Romulans are fairly buddy-buddy with us (before the Tomed Incident). We can show first contact with the Cardassians...
*sigh*
I've also always been fascinated with the transition from the Old West to the "civilised" West -- from dirt streets and free range and marginal legal presence to cities and rules and boundaries... That kind of social and moral transition provides an undercurrent of friction that makes for good drama, which is why TV Westerns have so often been such good shows. Conceiving Star Trek as a Western in space was the perfect move for a sci-fi series, for that very reason. Taking risks in that clearing is the other essential factor, and one that Berman doesn't do.
The reason Voyager fell flat -- more than any other -- is that we spent the first couple years whining about getting home, and getting treated to week after week of Gilligan's Island-inspired "we found a way home -- oops, didn't work" cow flaps. The crew should have taken a deep breath, squared their shoulders and then set out to see what there was to see in this trackless (for the Federation) expanse of space. Isn't there some Western equivalent to describe this? I suppose we can go further back and liken it to Cortez burning his boats to encourage his men to not think about going back home...
Try sending a letter to Majel and Rod. And maybe another to Nimoy... And possibly one to Patrick Stewart's production company. Find the people who care about what Trek should be about and encourage them to stand up to Paramount. Take the time to write physical letters. Show 'em it's important to you, too.
--Jonah
P.S. My own post-DS9/VOY story idea I describe as "Have Gun Will Travel" in space. Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Interestingly, when I pitched (and did some spec scripts) for TNG back in 1989-90 I sorta went the direction of some of these suggestions. I was interested in trying to: a) get some real science into the stories and make it dramatic, not just a technobabble way of solving a problem b) deal with the ethical dilemmas that would crop up from our philosophies c) deal with the ethical issues of being allies with a barbaric culture like the Klingons, who you just know have planets enslaved (and what happens when all those subjected races rebel) d) deal with the long-term repercussions of what happens when of non interference directive gets violated (let's visit Gamma Trianguli a century after Kirk did and see what happened when he knocked down their entire way of life) e) come up with strong ethical and personal dilemmas for the characters that are the core of missions related to the above
I came up with 13 stories and wrote 3 as scripts. I did get some interest from TNG on a couple of the ideas, but they weren't the ones I was keenest about.
I also recall a note I got back from Eric Stillwell telling me, amongst other things, that I shouldn't use Andorians becaase "one of our producers doesn't like aliens with antennae"...wow, that's constructive, and shows you how silly the thinking could be there sometimes.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Capped in Mic: 'the chase' was fine as a non-trek story.. ~* an archaeologist has secret information about an ages old puzzle, several warring political powers have to cooperate, making a scientific discovery about the beginning of civilization *~
the Trek thing about it was that they were parodying their own propensity for humanoids by creating a common humanoid alien forebearer
And yet....The Chase was one of the worst episodes of TNG for drama. It was so poorly written as to be laughable and at no point do you feel for any of the characters. It was Trek meets Cannonball Run but nobody was funny.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
The Andorian thing still slays me ... the quote I remember reading somewhere was, "we don't DO antennae" (at least until we can do it tastefully, with RC controllers, on ENT)
There are lots of aspects of life in trek future that hadn't been delved into ... one that I thought was obvious was THE NEWS. I figured these evolved folk probably didn't censor their news very much, but you could still have issues with security-related matters.
One of my pitches was SPECIAL REPORT, which had a reporter aboard at the request of Starfleet, which wanted to create some goodwill amongst the public and justify the energy requirements for rebuilding the fleet after the borg incursion of BOBW ("The Federation's first up-close look at life about a Galaxy-class starship!".)
Of course we had to have the reporter stumble onto something and do the wrestling with 'freedom of the press' and matters of conscience, but the thing that I thought would be fun was seeing how these TNG crewmembers broke character when a camera was aimed at them. I had Worf pretty close to PREENING whenever the camera went his way, and I thought seeing Riker doing his come-on bit while Frakes played directly to the camera would be fun as well (I also suggested they shoot the NEWSREPORT POV stuff in 3D and get 7-11 to co-sponsor the episode while providing throwaway 3d glasses, which busted up the whole room as a financially ludicrous notion.)
I thought there were other 'issue' type stories that needed doing, such as 'space garbage' cluttering up orbital space and the kind of thing TNG would often flirt with but not go full-out on, like 'prime directive vs hippocratic oath' ... gonna give some of these a re-reading, I'm getting jazzed thinking about some of the old treatments!
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by Capped in Mic: 'the chase' was fine as a non-trek story.. ~* an archaeologist has secret information about an ages old puzzle, several warring political powers have to cooperate, making a scientific discovery about the beginning of civilization *~
the Trek thing about it was that they were parodying their own propensity for humanoids by creating a common humanoid alien forebearer
And yet....The Chase was one of the worst episodes of TNG for drama. It was so poorly written as to be laughable and at no point do you feel for any of the characters. It was Trek meets Cannonball Run but nobody was funny.
Not all drama stories require the heart to be engaged fully. I've never cried over Decker buying it in DOOMSDAY MACHINE, but it is still very thrilling and as rewatchable as any Trek. I didn't consider CHASE laughable in the slightest, except for the ludicrous Klingon.
The moment in CHASE that most enticed me was when they were figuring out code elements in Crusher's whatever the room was ... it was an intellectual rush, not an emotional one. Kinda reminded me of FIVE MILLION YEARS TO EARTH, which has a similar kind of GOTCHA moment.
As for the conclusion, I think that a skilled filmmaker could pull it off, which is why I still think THE CHASE should have been the TNG Feature debut. An UNskilled filmmaker would have made it even more wince-making though, a la the "use them together / use them in peace" Hyams preaches over the end of 2010, which was going several bridges too far into schmaltz.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
I will tell you what though, "Attempt no landings there" was neat.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
^No argument there -- that part of the message is foreboding as Hell, as in, "don't fuck with us, we're the guys behind these big black 2 by 4s, we'll OWN your ass."
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
But that part of the message was in the novel. Hyams added the "Use them together -- use them in peace" bit, as well as the US/USSR conflict. He also pissed all over a lot of real-science elements that were in 2001 -- starting with the "sound in space" issue. It was not a sequel to 2001, but its own distinct movie.
--Jonah
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
The deal with 2001 and sequels is weird to me, because with all the discarded treatments for the original (some of this is collected in a book called LOST WORLDS OF 2001), you've got the makings of a helluva whole other movie or limited series in a 2001-like universe. I talked with a writer named Pete Briggs about this a few years ago, cuz I figured Tom Hanks, being the 2001 and space fan he is, might be interested in doing HOW THE SOLAR SYSTEM WAS WON (working joke title for 2001) or FROM THE EARTH TO BEYOND THE STARS or something, a kind of HBO does the 21st century version of FROM THE EARTH TO THE MOON -- a kind of documentary of the future, but using the unused storylines purchased by Kubrick from Clarke for 2001 and the abortive storylines developed by Clarke in concert with Kubrick. You could build through a series of man in the solar system stories to the payoff being the discovery of an extraterrestrial obelisk ... sort of like a precursor to 2001 in a way, though obviously in an adjusted timeframe, since we're WAY behind schedule!
For 2010, I kinda think Hyams should have made it even more different than he did, since 'science' isn't Hyams' thing ... machine guns on the ships and the americans and russians teaming up to smoke out the Chinese mission ... instead, by trying to please Clarke and being (rightfully) in awe of the first film, Hyams kinda just wriggled around like a fish out of water (plus he pissed on the lighting scheme with all that smoke he loves so much.)
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Yeah. About the only scenes from 2010 that I liked were the opening mission report (including Bowman's final transmission), the cut from Dr. Floyd looking in on his son to the Leonov, the revival of the Discovery and HAL, the stuff with the apparition of Dave Bowman, and the final scene with the Monolith. That's not good for a movie as long as this was, but those were some durn good scenes by themselves...
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Visually, I love 2010: it's just really refreshing to see spacecraft dwarfed by even Jupiter's moons after years of watching Enterprise fly-by in "standard orbit.
The ship models in the film were very impressive as well. Discovery is identical to the original model but with more of it's hull details visible in the improved cameras of the 80's. The Leonev was certainly copied by the B5 art department at least, so there is a surviving legacy to the film....
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
The thing that bothered me most when I first saw it was the total reversal on the Floyd character. In 2001, you see Floyd on a pretaped message tell Bowman that only HAL knew the truth about the mission (and earlier scenes establish him as being very political and in on the TMA-1 coverup), yet in 2010, Scheider's Floyd makes an enormous deal about it being the NSC who programmed HAL to lie and his NOT knowing.
At the time I reconciled it by figuring it is Scheider playing Floyd as 'protesting too much' just for the benefit of the other crew, but nobody else thought the writing and plotting in 2010 was smart enough to have a character that clever and conniving (yet Scheider's shit-eating grin after Chandra discovers his HAL-killer device suggests he really IS a bastard.)
As for the good stuff in the flick ... I liked the Chandra/HAL/"I think we should abort the countdown and investigate" scene ... that and the Europa remote probe sequence (which at least plays the contrast of sound and little sound with interior/exteriors) are two bits in the film that FEEL very movie-like and compelling ... if they had maybe another half-dozen scenes as good as those, I'd have eventually forgotten they were attempting to sequelize an untouchable classic and gotten into the movie, but alas ...
A guy I used to work for at Cinefex saw the 2010 miniatures up close and in person when he covered the film, and even though he still holds that the APOLLO 13 fx are the best he has seen, he said the modelwork on 2010 was just staggering.
My disappointment with the fx (which in the theater were rather stunning, and certainly deserved the Oscar more than Indy2, which won that year) has to do with the way they look on video ... you have to adjust the picture rather severely to keep the 'garbage matte' boxes from showing up during space scenes, due to how 'hot' the film was printed during video transfer. I have held off on buying a dvd of 2010, hoping they'll go back and do a really nice new transfer, but since this was a problem on laserdisc as well, I think we may have to live with it as chronic.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Those damn "hot boxes" are on my old VHS copy of Empire Strikes Back as well. All the TIE fighters have square halos around them.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
Hot boxes is a good name for them!
As for SW, the pre-spec ed laserdisk box sets for the films are really awful in this way, esp some of JEDI. But I can't imagine swapping them for what followed, considering the tampering I'd have to live with.
I think the 2010 stuff is the MOST objectionable instance, mainly cuz the garbage mattes aren't just boxes ... in some instances, you can see the garbage matte around the supports as well, so you have flickering boxes around the ships plus rectangles around the connecting tube and garbage mattes around the pipes holding the ships. From what I remember, if you turn the brightness down by about 65% it hides them, but then you can barely see the ships!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmart: As for SW, the pre-spec ed laserdisk box sets for the films are really awful in this way, esp some of JEDI. But I can't imagine swapping them for what followed, considering the tampering I'd have to live with.
Because the changes made to Empire and Jedi were radical in the extreme and destroy classic movies?
I have no great love for Crazy New Dance Number, but if you think that it ruins a movie which has several moments of Ewok partying, then you have strange and foreign tastes.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by kmart: As for SW, the pre-spec ed laserdisk box sets for the films are really awful in this way, esp some of JEDI. But I can't imagine swapping them for what followed, considering the tampering I'd have to live with.
Because the changes made to Empire and Jedi were radical in the extreme and destroy classic movies?
I have no great love for Crazy New Dance Number, but if you think that it ruins a movie which has several moments of Ewok partying, then you have strange and foreign tastes.
When I say "what followed," I'm referring to the SEs of all three movies, not to the sequels to ANH. So with that in mind ...
I haven't been able to watch JEDI all the way through since 1983, and never even tried to see the SpecEd of it. I think it is a shitty movie on just about all levels, with only some good spaceship stuff to offset the awfullness. (I ain't that big an enthusiast of SW period ... if there was a film that should be a classic example of using Campbell and mythology, it would be THE PRINCESS BRIDE, which stands much taller than Vader's shadow IMO.)
My objection to the way the films were reworked for the SpecEds was that they were reworked at all, and moreover, that said reworking was MUCH more than just digital recomping to lose matte lines, a process I can sorta live with as being something akin to cleaning up the negative.
I don't think that being able to see the x-wings sweep around camera to approach deathstar in one shot (in the se) to be an improvement in any way compared to the pair of excellent model shots that they replaced -- all I see is a B5-ish fleet of ships which don't have the dynamic range in the imagery that was present in the miniature photography.
Most of the other changes in the SEs I've seen (I saw EMPIRE SE in the theatre and have seen bits of ANH SE on TBS) seem to be disimprovements as well ... for every couple bigger vistas provided, there is either a sacrifice in visual credibility (see dynamic range above) or in storytelling (Han not shooting first.)
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmart: I don't think that being able to see the x-wings sweep around camera to approach deathstar in one shot (in the se) to be an improvement in any way compared to the pair of excellent model shots that they replaced
Not to mention the shot is so stupidly composed that it actually adds a continuity problem to the film. We see the rebel ships level with Yavin IV directly behind them. The camera turns 180 degrees and we see the Death Star directly in front of them...which means it already has clear line-of-site of the moon. Ergo, the Death Star should have vaporized said moon before "Porkins" could say "Ham Sandwich standing by."
Another great example of why tampering after the fact often creates more problems than it solves.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I do, however much prefer the new ending of RTOJ to the "yub yub" song. The Courscant scene of the masses pulling down the statue of Palpaltine is a nice touch and sets up the look of the capital city nicely for the prequels. But I'm admittedly biased against Ewoks. Hate them fuckers.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
You speciesist....
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: [QUOTE]Originally posted by kmart: [qb]Not to mention the shot is so stupidly composed that it actually adds a continuity problem to the film. We see the rebel ships level with Yavin IV directly behind them. The camera turns 180 degrees and we see the Death Star directly in front of them...which means it already has clear line-of-site of the moon. Ergo, the Death Star should have vaporized said moon before "Porkins" could say "Ham Sandwich standing by."
Another great example of why tampering after the fact often creates more problems than it solves.
Yes. Except that the problem was in the original as well, since we see the ships flying towards the camera away from Yavin IV, and then the camera changes to behind them, and we see the Death Star. Unless you are implying that there was a time jump in between those two shots while the ships flew around the gas giant.
Wasn't that the sort of shot that the movie makers originally wanted to do anyway?
And, seriously, what was detrimental to the SE of Empire? We see one alien in a costume that we never saw before. Woopee, since that's the worst part of the film anyway. And two CGI bits later on that you'd miss if you blinked.
And Jedi isn't a bad film. It's 40% bad film mixed with 60% excellence. Take out the opening 45 minutes, and I'd put it on par with Empire. And let's not forget, I am British, therefore I am right.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: Not to mention the shot is so stupidly composed that it actually adds a continuity problem to the film.
Yes. Except that the problem was in the original as well, since we see the ships flying towards the camera away from Yavin IV, and then the camera changes to behind them, and we see the Death Star.
Wrong. You don't see the moon behind the rebel fleet in the original film. You see: --View past gas giant towards Death Star...the flighters come into view --reverse angle of the fighters head-on...no moon
quote:And, seriously, what was detrimental to the SE of Empire?
--Pointlessly changing lines of dialogue, as as adding "Nowhere to land." after Threepio's "Ohhhhh, this is suicide!"
--Adding a scream when Luke drops away from Vader. Suddenly he's a sissy..."eeeeeeeee!"
--Crappily removing corridor walls and showing sky instead. Terrible lighting mismatches. Jumps right off the screen.
--Adding pointless shots of Vader going to his shuttle, his shuttle heading for the Star Destroyer, and landing, all of which break the tempo of the climax and add NOTHING to the film.
And other things I've forgotten since the one time I saw the Empire SE. Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrNeutron:
--Adding a scream when Luke drops away from Vader. Suddenly he's a sissy..."eeeeeeeee!" __________________________________________________
That irks me more then anything else. They turned Luke's willing sacrifice to avoid joining the Darkside into a wussy "oops, I've fallen" moment. Not to mention they used the same scream from when Vader threw the Emporer down the airshaft in ROTJ. __________________________________________________
--Adding pointless shots of Vader going to his shuttle, his shuttle heading for the Star Destroyer, and landing, all of which break the tempo of the climax and add NOTHING to the film. __________________________________________________
And the fact that it is clearly not James Earl Jones doing the voice-over work there sucks too. It sounded like some bad Darth Vader impression by a guy talking into a cup.
Lucas needs someone around to just slap him every time he does something stupid. I think his cronies are too afraid to tell him some of his new ideas are goofy. He probably crushes their larynx with the force or something.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
He's said as much in an interview -- that he's got a bunch of guys working for him that are afraid to tell him something's a bad idea. He cited Jar-Jar, saying that if even one person had said "Um, George..." the character would probably have ended up being realised very differently, if not omitted altogether.
My beefs with the Special Editions are mostly with the clumsy way the new footage has been cut in with the old. The film quality is different, for one thing. And the CGI is too "smooth", for another. Add to that the things that should have been fixed but weren't (many elements of the Jedi space battle, among other things), the things that were fixed but shouldn't have been (the cantina aliens, among other things), and the things that were added halfway (like changing the story to R2 getting away from the bog monster on his own, but not adding the CGI rockets, among other things), and you get some very halfassed efforts on the silver screen.
Jedi has always felt mediocre to me, anyway. The only part of that movie that enthralls me as much now as it did when I was nine is the stuff aboard the Death Star (and in, the reactor assault being my favorite part of the space battle). George should have done whatever it took to keep Irvin Kirschner on for the third movie. Richard Marquand's input really watered down the story.
--Jonah
P.S. They were supposed to be wookiees, dammit!
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"that he's got a bunch of guys working for him that are afraid to tell him something's a bad idea. He cited Jar-Jar, saying that if even one person had said "Um, George..." the character would probably have ended up being realised very differently, if not omitted altogether."
So, he has surrounded himself with butt-snorkelers, yet blames them for not opposing his wackier ideas?
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: George should have done whatever it took to keep Irvin Kirschner on for the third movie. Richard Marquand's input really watered down the story.
I've seen little indication that Marquand had much input on the story (or even the direction, despite the credit -- this one seems very 'Tobe Hooper/Spielberg POLTERGEIST'.) Lucas was on the set during most of shooting of JEDI and was very hands-on, presumably because he was displeased with what happened when he wasn't around on EMPIRE (which should say something about his taste.)
I think it is GL's heavy hand that weighs down JEDI, not Marquand's. The latter's EYE OF THE NEEDLE was a pretty decent movie, and I saw nothing of that style or sophistication in JEDI. The funny thing is that GL offered this to David Lynch first! As if they'd have seen eye-to-eye -- can't imagine Lynch as director for hire (well, kind of on DUNE, but you can still feel his presence throughout that one.)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Except that apparently, the part that Lucus stepped in to direct himself is the Darth/Luke/Emperor stuff at the end, the best part of the movie.
The added stuff of Vadar at the end was because one minute, he's on the planet, and another, he's on his ship, right? So, y'know, there is a reason. Visual clarification and all that.
And you're THAT angry over the windows in Cloud City? And Threepio saying "There's no-where to land"? How have you not had a heart attack already?
Personally, I was surprised they never fixed up some of the stop motion. The Walkers in Empire are okay-ish, but the tauntauns (sp?) really do look awful.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Ahh, just wait for the super-duper version of the movies that Lucas will release on DVD several years after he dies.
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: And let's not forget, I am British, therefore I am right.
...???...
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Universal constant. All British people are right all the time, unless I disagree with them.
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
quote: Universal constant. All British people are right all the time, unless I disagree with them.
Then how come the Brits go to "SHOOL" and drive "Jag-you-ares"?
Listen to the Brits.... they yell "Hear! Hear!" then they don't say anything.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Except that apparently, the part that Lucus stepped in to direct himself is the Darth/Luke/Emperor stuff at the end, the best part of the movie.
Lucas as director is just a guy trying to get lots of takes and film so he can cut -- he is a post-oriented guy, always was (which again begs the question, why did he interfere on JEDI, when it was clear that he had hired an actor-oriented director, a la Kersh? Only reason I can think is that it is due to his fear of running overbudget like EMPIRE.)
I don't think he has any affinity for directing actors ... from all the various accounts, I almost get the impression that the GRAFITTI actors were cast because they knew how to play the scenes w/o direction.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist: [QUOTE]Then how come the Brits go to "SHOOL" and drive "Jag-you-ares"?
Because we invented the language, therefore we know how to pronounce words correctly. Considering that roughly 130$ of Americans can't even say "Nuclear" without mucking it up, I'd keep quiet if I were you.
Although..."SHOOL"? What are you dribbling on about there? No-one pronounces it like that. Ever. Anywhere.
quote:Listen to the Brits.... they yell "Hear! Hear!" then they don't say anything.
I really would suggest reading more books and drinking less toilet cleaner.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
You may argue that you "invented" the language, but then you let the French fuck it up, so you've lost your claim to it.
And you may not say "shool", but you do say "shedule", which just makes you inconsistent.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: The added stuff of Vadar at the end was because one minute, he's on the planet, and another, he's on his ship, right? So, y'know, there is a reason. Visual clarification and all that.
Filmmaking 101: you don't have to show Joe Bob Skywalker driving home, opening the garage, parking the landspeeder, going to the front door and letting himself in. It's impled. Vader says, "Bring my shuttle," and next time he see him he's back on his Star Destroyer. What did showing the shuttle clarify, other that it was a Ford Prefect with the license number THX1138?
quote:And you're THAT angry over the windows in Cloud City? And Threepio saying "There's no-where to land"?
Pointless edits change elements for no entertainment or informative value are just bad filmmaking. I don't understand why you're defending it.
quote:Personally, I was surprised they never fixed up some of the stop motion. The Walkers in Empire are okay-ish, but the tauntauns (sp?) really do look awful.
I'd rather they fixed really obvious flaws. In Star Wars, for instance, there's the shot were you can see right through the head of the little rat monster in the Cantina (in one eye and out the other), and then there's the infamous bit where Kenobi lower his lightsabre and the light goers out and you can see thw bare rod. Bad bad bad...
Posted by Bond, James Bond (Member # 1127) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:
Ahh, just wait for the super-duper version of the movies that Lucas will release on DVD several years after he dies. __________________________________________________
I here in that version when Greedo fires at Han first, Han just gives Greedo a big bear hug to show what a nice non-smuggling non-scoundrel type person he is and they end up sharing a couple of club sodas and forget all that mean bounty on Han's head nonsense. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: and then there's the infamous bit where Kenobi lower his lightsabre and the light goers out and you can see thw bare rod. Bad bad bad...
Yeah, I was really suprised they didint fix that myself: it makes Obi-Wans' sabre look like it's running out of power or somethng.
Even worse is that they didint fix the obviour addition of black to the inside of Palpatine's robe to cocer some makeup flaw. It looks like theres a catapillar crawling on his face. The destruction of the Star Destroyer's bridge in Empire should have been fixed as well- it just disapears when an asteroid hits it!
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
The Holy Trilogy: Spec Ed, should not be viewed as a substitute for the originals so much as an addendum to them. Lucasfilm would be wise to view it this way (selling us the same movie twice). But do you see what I'm saying? It's like having a DVD extra with extra special lameness that was never in the original. Similar to the Wrath of Khan disc. Like kmart, I can understand wanting to clean up some of the mattes, and maybe even adding some backgrounds that they never had the budget to do, but making major narative alterations (Greedo did not fucking shoot first!) reeks of revisionist history. So I choose to view the Special Editions as entities to themselves: interesting, and educational, but certainly never superceding the originals. That way I don't bust a vein.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I thought we said "sked-ule" and Americans said "shed-ule"?
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: Pointless edits change elements for no entertainment or informative value are just bad filmmaking. I don't understand why you're defending it.
I'm not defending it, as such. But I'm also not about to worry myself into an early grave because Lucus altered some films he made. Besides, there were dialogue changes even in the original mix of movies. Some versions of the original ANH not having "It's locked, move on to the next one", for instance. So, presumably, the reason "there's no-where to land" was added back in was because Lusasfilm were going from a master copy that had that line in it.
If you want to hunt down people and murder them in cold blood because they prefer the special editions, then more power to you. Find people who prefer dubbed anime to the original as well. And people who run XP in "classic style". And butcher them all.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Yeah, I was really suprised they didint fix that myself: it makes Obi-Wans' sabre look like it's running out of power or somethng.
Me too. But they did have a big list of things that they wanted to change that they didn't get around to. I have no idea why that rated lower than "fix the shadow on the landspeeder", but I don't have George's money. I do have a neck though, which is possibly better.
quote:Even worse is that they didint fix the obviour addition of black to the inside of Palpatine's robe to cocer some makeup flaw. It looks like theres a catapillar crawling on his face.
I'm not too sure how they would fix that though. Unless they were going to CGI part of his face and add it in to all those sequences, expertly matching it to the actor's face.
And the picture quality is all over the place at the end of Jedi anyway. Check out the close-up of Luke after he chops off Vadar's hand, to the medium shot of Palpatine. It looks like different film.
quote:The destruction of the Star Destroyer's bridge in Empire should have been fixed as well- it just disapears when an asteroid hits it!
I have to say, I never noticed that. So it can't have been that bad, can it?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The SD bridge hit from Empire is quick so it's not glaringly bad....it's just another "clean" explosion with no debris (that bothers me in movies more than TV)
Personally, I would have liked to see the millions of tons of Death Star II falling into Endor's gravity well and destroying all life on the planet. ...but that's just me.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
But then we'd have been denied the sheer amazingness of Lando clapping at the end of the film. And, quite frankly, that's the best part of any Star Wars film ever.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If only he'd been enjoying acool, refreshing Colt 45.
Preferably the hollowpoint varaity.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Colt 45 is the most vile beer in existence.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
You cannot say that until you've had Tesco's value beer. Dog urine is almost certainly tastier.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Although, Colt 45 is damn good, when compare to Smith & Wesson....
Dog urine is almost certainly tastier. Sounds like you are still debating it....
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Things never to drink: Schlitz Meister Brau Old Mill-Water (milualkee) Kaluha not mixed with anything (for god's sake! It's maple syrup and nailpolish remover!!!)
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Add MD 20/20....
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Indiana Jones. DVD. Joyous.
Off topic.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Off topic? How?
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote: Originally posted by PsyLiam: If you want to hunt down people and murder them in cold blood because they prefer the special editions, then more power to you.
Talk about mischaracterizing a response.
"I don't like that movie." "Gee, I guess you want to burn down the studio and kill all the actors."
Rrrrrrrrrright.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Fans. Not actors. Keep up.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron:
quote: Originally posted by PsyLiam: If you want to hunt down people and murder them in cold blood because they prefer the special editions, then more power to you.
Talk about mischaracterizing a response.
"I don't like that movie." "Gee, I guess you want to burn down the studio and kill all the actors."
I felt that exact way after watching Event Horizon. Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Fans. Not actors. Keep up.
It was an analogy. Keep up.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I know you are, but what am I?
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I wanna burst your ballons and burn all of your cities to the ground....
Posted by Capt.Blair245 (Member # 1113) on :
Snay, i really like your idea though the ship has to have a good reason to "stay" in the system or what not. How about the crew is assigned to a Starbase and ,as a example, the ship is supposed to be a relief ship for star systems in some major peril. This would be a good concept if the series was based a little after the Dominion War because the Federation was supposed to be deteriorating.
Or maybe it could be in th TUC era with a Excelsior-class vessel. I wouldn't mind that...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Capt.Blair245: This would be a good concept if the series was based a little after the Dominion War because the Federation was supposed to be deteriorating.
No. The Federation was never shown to be "deteriorating".
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