After just having bought and re-watched this film, I am once again confirmed in my belief that its reputation as a "bad" Trek movie is scarcely deserved and has been blown completely out of proportion by fans who obviously didn't bother to truly watch it.
Apart from a single significant flaw (which I shall examine shortly) this film is quite decent and enjoyable Trek. It is evocative of the Original Series in a number of ways, especially in its character moments between Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. These are some of the best found in any of the TOS movies. Every scene between these three is richly steeped in their strong bond of friendship and loyalty---from the opening sequence in Yosemite to their imprisonment and escape from the brig together to their final "cosmic thoughts" at the observation window---at times warm and affectionate, at times mutually antagonistic, and always a pleasure to watch. The "Big Three" are also furnished with several character development points that are at least as interesting and important as those in TWOK and TUC. (The two films that everyone raves about as being the most character development-intense.) These include McCoy's torment over his part in his father's death, Kirk's musings on death and family, and Spock's conflict with his renegade brother. (A solid performance by Laurence Luckinbill as Sybok provides the film with a convincing and original pro/antagonist, and the revelation of his relationship to Spock was well executed and effective IMO.)
Many poeple complain that there is too much humor in the film and that the other cast members are utilized simply for "cheap laughs." I do not feel this is true. They provide comic relief, true, but in the same capable manner in which they did so on TOS, a series full of incidences where the characters play for laughs. (Hell, Chekov's character was created for the specific purpose of being played for laughs!) And the film is certainly no more "injected with jokes" than TVH, which I personally feel is more guilty of clownishness than TFF. Besides, underlying the humor there are a smattering of great character moments, at least one for each of the main cast (Scotty's jailbreak, Uhura's dancing, [and singing, just like in TOS! yay!] Chekov's "acting captain" bit, and Sulu's participation in the strike team and subsequent piloting of the shuttle, etc.) which is more than they ever got in many TOS episodes.
Having said this, however, I *am* glad that they didn't put any MORE humor in the film than they did. There's enough there already, and the next thing to come would be things like the "Screw you too!" deleted scene, which is way too extraneous to fit smoothly with the rest of the movie.
The other major complaint this film receives is that the special effects are inferior to those of the other movies in the series, and it's quite true that they aren't as snappy. But all I have to say in response to this that they're AT LEAST as good or BETTER than those of TOS, which was just as enjoyable with its primitive VFX (and perhaps moreso) as it would have been with flashy eye candy. People who watch ST for the effects think Nemesis was a good movie. Give me character moments over space battles any day...
...I must admit that Yosemite matte at the end looked pretty damn BAD, tough...
The theme is a classic Trek favorite. Man seeks God and barely escapes the trickery of an alien impersonator, ultimately discovering that what he sought was within himself all along. But this time the story gets to this point by a route that allows us to enjoy a number of interesting incidents along the way. (The Nimbus III hostage situation, compelte with the cavalry literally riding in, and then the unexpected conclusion of the operation being just one example.) I also felt that the scenario of the ship being hijacked by fantics on a quest was handled much better here than in "The Way to Eden." I wasn't bothered, as some people seemed to be, by the malfunctions that plague the Enterprise in the film. I thought it was nice to see all the myriad little things than can go wrong on a starship and I felt it was effective in showing how well Kirk & company do their stuff, even when their equipment conks out on them. I also liked seeing new sections of the ship such as the shuttlebay, brigg, and observation deck. (Even if the windows of the latter *don't* match the model's exterior.)
While the impression I get from every single interview (the one on the new DVD is particularly groaningly funny) or behind-the-scenes anecdote is that William Shatner is something of an imbecile, I must say that I quite like his direction of this movie. The composition of the shots, particularly in the use of lighting and framing, is very effective. I hadn't noticed this before I saw the movie in widescreen. Perhaps he missed his true calling...
Now we come to the one major flaw that I mentioned earlier. It is well known that the movie was written to have a bigger climactic sequence on Sha Ka Ree, but this was precluded by the budget, and this does show somewhat in the finished product. I've always felt that the climax as filmed doesn't pay off quite as much dramatic tension as was built up by the main body of the film. It's not detrimental by any means, as the filmmakers did their best to work with what they had and pulled it off reasonably well. It's just barely still noticeable, subtly. While I'm no great fan at all of decades-old movies being updated with CGI and whatnot, (I absolutely deplore the TMP DE) I must admit that it would have been interesting to see what would have been done had Paramount decided to do a full Director's Edition of TFF.
So the climax isn't as rewarding as it should or could have been. As I said, this is a significant flaw in the film. However, I personally feel that the rest of the film does much to make up for it.
There are also lesser issues, like the underdevelopment of the Klingons' role in the plot, but this is often how it was in TOS. Unlike the Klingons of TNG and DS9, these are just cookie-cutter bad guys. Nothing new there, though. Also, how ridiculous it is to go to the center of the galaxy. (I did notice something interesting about this for the first time, however. There is only a single sequence of lines regarding this in the entirety of the movie. Tasteful editing of the shots would leave the location of the "Great Barrier" nondescript and all would be fine. It could be just another region of space like the Delphic Expanse. The cuts in the film seem compatible with this.) These represent the only examples of bad writing in the film.
As to the special features on the new DVD itself, it pretty much contains the same kinds of mildly interesting things that the other SEs offer. (With the exception of TMP, which actually has a lot of genuinely intriguing stuff.) A makeup test reel reveals that an Andorian deity was originally to be included in the "faces of God" lineup, but it doesn't seem to be in the actual film. Also, a long-standing rumor that the feline bar room dancer was referred to as a "kzinrette" by the makeup guys is debunked. Nope, it's just plain old "cat woman." The deleted scenes are neat to have, but I'm glad they were ultimately left out. They aren't very well executed, and I have no issues with the editing of the final film.
The one thing that is pretty cool is the "Rockman" test footage. Ten of these creatures were originally to feature in the expanded climax of the movie, but budget restrictions reduced their number to a single creature, which was finally eliminated because apparently they thought it didn't look convincing enough. However, from the test footage I think it showed promise, especially under the lighting conditions planned. The animatronic skull worked well, IMO, and overall it was quite nicely reminiscent of the Gorn from TOS "Arena" and the Excalbian from "The Savage Curtain." But I suppose there would have needed to be more than one to be effective in the movie. Still, it might have been a little better than the glowing God-face chasing Kirk up the mountain...
Anyway, there's my long-winded little review. I'm told that MrNeutron will now promptly tear it to pieces. Oh well...
-MMoM Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
I hadn't planned on tearing your review apart, but the film.
One quick comment onthe review, though: saying the effects aren't so bad because they're better than TOS is damning with faint praise, indeed. It's no more germane to the quality of the film as a film than comparing its cinematography, lighting, or sets to TOS. The apt comparison is to it contemporaries...the Trek films.
And when you stand up its effect work to any other Trek film, TFF's effects fall down flat. Bad mattes. Stacatto motion (a crap motion control rig that can't expose film while the camera is in motion!). Bad lighting. And cheats like scaling down a static image of the Enterprise in an optical printer instead of actually shoting a flyby pass of it (as it heads for the Great Barrier).
Bad bad bad FX!
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Yes, you're correct. I guess I wasn't really trying to deny that they were bad, but more saying that I don't really CARE that they're bad, because other elements of the film aren't, and likening it to my also not caring that TOS effects are (largely) equally bad for similar reasons.
So then...I take it you're just compiling your thoughts before you launch into your anti-review? Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Mim, the flaw in your defense of TFF's humor is that much of that movie's humor was seriously degrading to the supporting cast. Scotty, an engineering veteran of fifty years, knocks himself out cold by running into a low-hanging beam. Uhura has to do exotic dances as the distraction. The finest ship in the fleet suffering multiple malfunctions for no reason that's even remotely justified other than to serve the plot. Another ragtag band of goons hijacking a Federation starship without the slightest hint of real resistance. And don't get me started on just how pathetic the Klingons were this time around.
I definitely agree that the interaction between the Big Three is definitely the highlight of the movie, but IMO that's the story's only redeeming quality. Yes, the "Man Seeks God" theme is a classic Trekkian staple in theory, but as portrayed on film appears extremely idiotic. And I'm not sure how successful it was over the years, anyway.
(And before anyone jumps on me, I thought that "Nemesis" was a horrible movie too. I'm not just hating TFF for its crappy effects. )
I respect the fact that Shatner had a grander vision for his film, that never got realized because of budget concerns. However, the mark of a good screenwriter and director is the ability to compensate for these limitations and still provide an entertaining and interesting work. TWOK was filmed on a shoestring budget (and not just because of the reuse of stock shots from TMP), and yet twenty years later it remains the most popular Trek film of all (on average, of course). Therefore, although I'm sympathetic to the restrictions, the fact remains that all I've got to watch is what made it onto the screen. That's what I've got to base my opinion on.
"Captain, please... not in front of the Klingons." Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
Valid points all-round. YES the effects were crappy. YES the plot made Swiss cheese look airtight, And YES there are several errors that us Treknical people have a hard time forgiving (Turboshafts, centre of the galaxy and whatnot)
However the character moments in this film are second to none, the 'big three' scenes seam effortless. While I agree that the humour is at times cringe worthy, it is often the only thing stopping the movie from taking itself to seriously, which with a plot this thin would make the characters look REALLY foolish. BTW, I loved the bit where Scotty knocks himself out!
On the plus side we do get to see parts of the ship and technology that have never been seen before (which for us Treknical types is always a good thing), namely the Shuttlebay, the observation lounge, the Jeffries tubes, the shuttlecraft and of course the Captain's log.
In regards to the Direction, I believe Shatner has admitted responsibility for the undeniable weakness of the film as a whole. I think he put it down to his inexperience with dealing with the 'suits' and allowing too many cooks in the kitchen.
I agree that the Klingons were portrayed as being weak and ineffective, but remember that Klaa was obviously a young and inexperienced 'Junior Officer' (he can't be that senior given that he ended up as a translator) who spent most of his time taking pot shots at space garbage and cultural treasures. I see him as a somewhat over-eager cadet wanting to prove himself a little too much. He is certainly no equal of Kor, Kang, Koloth or Kruge and I don't believe that he was supposed to be a serious threat.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The Klingon chick was pretty hot, though, continuing the fine tradition of hot Klingon villain-women started with Kruge's ill-fated honey.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: The Klingon chick was pretty hot, though, continuing the fine tradition of hot Klingon villain-women started with Kruge's ill-fated honey.
Started by Mara in "The Day of the Dove," actually. Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
I'm waiting to buy it, based on the answer to one question... does the additional material show making of the sets? I would want it for model building and general STAR TREK background info.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I too, am waiting to buy it....just as soon as hell freezes over. Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
There's suppsed to be a hidden gag reel... How's that?
Mark
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: BTW, I loved the bit where Scotty knocks himself out!
Why, because he makes a complete fool of himself? How the heck can someone walk so soundly into a steel (or duranium, or whatever) beam in the middle of the corridor and knock themselves out for over half an hour? And just who put such a protuberance in a hallway on a starship, anyway?
Yeah, the scene's funny on its own, simply for the slapstick humor. But it makes Scotty look like a complete idiot.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by MrNeutron: TFF's effects fall down flat. Bad mattes. Stacatto motion (a crap motion control rig that can't expose film while the camera is in motion!).
Just to clarify on this: the mo-con rig was fine; it was the optical team's inability to pull effective mattes from normally shot (blur incorporated) motion control that led to the lamentable decision to shoot each frame w/o blur. The main rig (not the one they shot static ships with, which was a discard from THE BLACK HOLE) was custombuilt for the show. But the fault in that instance is with Optical House, the company that did the matte work for Ferren. Optical House did okay work on other films, but clearly didn't have experience dealing with these kind of objects like ILM did.
There is blame a plenty to go around on the fx for the flick, but in this case, it belongs more with them (and with Winter and Paramount for selecting Ferren w/o vetting him and who he was working with -- Wallach on the miniatures, Optical House on the mattework) and of course with Ferren himself for not dealing with the schedule realistically (he has to take the blame for ordering that mo-con rig, which didn't arrive until Feb 89 for a movie that had to be in theaters just 4 months later!)
As for the DVD ... I was massively disappointed with the extras. I had heard about various cut scenes for years and really expected to see a lot more of them on the supplement. I really wanted to see more of the stuff from Shatner's cut, which had a longer storming of Paradise City by Sybok's guys, plus a longer fight between the Starfleet team and Sybok's forces. I was also surprised to see nothing illustrating the totally abandoned first take on the god planet with the Hudson Valley kinds of matte art that Illusion Arts had been approached to supply. There's more concept art of the rockman and various other aspects of the film to be found in the old STARLOG off trek 5 mag than in the supplement on the disk.
The picture quality is tons better (sharper and contrastier) than the laserdisk, which I've damn near worn out in the last decade, as I rewatch TREK 5 more than any other ST picture, because I love all the Kirk/Spock/McCoy stuff and I really admire the way Shatner moved the camera and his sense of composition. I also liked what he aimed for as a filmmaker, regardless of how flawed some of the execution turned out. And I marvel at some of the stuff that DID turn out, like the shot where the fullsize shuttle lands on the planet and all the guys jump out, all in one take.
I once talked with the physical fx guy, Mike Wood, and he told me that Shatner had to deal with more things going wrong at once than just about any director he'd ever worked for, and that if he'd had more support from Paramount a lot of those aspects would have been addressed beforehand and he wouldn't have had to be distracted by them on-set.
Shatner has never acknowledged it to the best of my knowledge, but I think if he had pulled a Nick Meyer and threatened to put his own money into reshooting the stuff that Paramount nixed pre-release (I'm talking theatrical release), Paramount might have taken him more seriously or allocated extra dollars that could have minimized the damage the flawed fx had on the film. (When Paramount didn't want to fork out for a big bridge explosion retake on KHAN, Meyer just said, 'take it out of my directing fee' and that was enough for Par to just go, 'okay, if you want it that bad, we'll pay.' I don't imagine Shatner ever considered that kind of approach, but if he'd been more experienced business wise he might have ... or if he'd been more desperately passionate.)
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: There's suppsed to be a hidden gag reel... How's that?
Mark
Only one minute, basically one gag (described in the MAKING TREK 5 book) repeated, with the producers filmed using a makeshift mallet intercut with KSM flying up the elevator shaft, like a circus strongman attraction. It's barely worth watching (you use the left control from the cut scenes to jump onto the little circular graphic and then hit enter, as I recall.)
Posted by Brian Whisenhunt (Member # 1095) on :
I agree that the interplay of the Big 3 was the best part of the movie. The bit with Scotty was hilarious BECAUSE it was a bit degrading. Scotty always knows the ship inside out so it was funny to see him GOOF in a SILLY incident that shouldn't happen to someone of his expertise.
The FX most certainly "Pulled Vacuum". The irony is that Paramount didn't want to put in more $ because they were afraid it would flop, but because they DIDN'T put in the $, it DID flop.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Mightiest Monkey of Mims wrote:
quote:Perhaps he (Shatner) missed his true calling...
I always knew Shatner's true calling: Chum.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
What is that?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Chum? Shark bait. Mostly chopped up meat and fish let sit in the sun for a couple of days to get really smelly and ripe.... Well, you get the idea.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The BEST part of this movie - it's FANTASTIC score. The best of them all. A lot of the themes from First Contact are taken from The Final Frontier.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Go back further. TFF uses the main theme and Klingon theme Goldsmith (who did the score for FC, too) originally created for TMP. In my opinion, the best score -- and best use of the score -- was TSFS. Awesome...
--Jonah
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
SFS is just a variation in orchestration(minus the good cues) on TWOK, and doesn't use any of Goldsmith's stuff from TMP (though Horner tries to get the flavor of JG's klingon stuff.)
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
IMO, TSFS is better than TWoK. TWoK tends to sound a little bit too "canned" for me -- hard to explain. TSFS seems a bit more grand and sweeping, and fits what we're seeing a lot better...
--Jonah
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Goldsmith's work on TFF is actually pretty good, because even though he recycles a few themes from TMP, they're reorchestrated and sound pretty different. The Klingon theme is more "sneaky" in TMP and here it's downright "thrill of battle", for instance.
I've never been a fan on Horner's work. I especially dislike his early scores, which all sounded interchangeable. Not only are those scores derivative and some near clones of one another, but he had an annoying habit or using the same orchestration for similar themes in film and film, which made them seem even more generic. Listen to the boat chase music from the end of Cocoon...it's a near clone of some of his TWOK work. Bleh.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
"Early" scores? I had the displeasure of seeing "Bicentennical Man" recently, and found that I could still enjoy the movie by closing my eyes, listening to the music and thinking that I was watching "Wrath of Khan".
When Horner is great, he is great. In ST2 especially so. Provided you don't mind the similarities to "Jumanji" and stuff. And he's *not* a one-trick horse, as the "Mark of Zorro" score was great in a very different way. It's just that he has enough greatness in him for about one movie per decade...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
I have to agree with AndrewR. I think the score is the best part of TFF. And it's the best score of all the Trek films IMHO. Take the opening credits during the Yosemite scenes. I can't detect any reused elements from TMP or any other Trek film there.
And the scene on the Bird of Prey at the end with Spock in the gunner's chair - great. As is the ending with the zooming out to the closing credits. That scene was copied almost to the last minute detail in First Contact. Just the bar instead of the camp-fire.
All in all I like TFF. I enjoy the jokes (ESPECIALLY Scotty knocking himself out!) and my only complaints are the really crappy VFX and the reuse of the Ent-D sets. It just doesn't fit when you see the warp core or the corridors of the D without any modifications. And yes, the turboshaft/deck count mistake IS unforgivable. Still, that's not enough to keep me from enjoying the film.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: "Early" scores? I had the displeasure of seeing "Bicentennical Man" recently, and found that I could still enjoy the movie by closing my eyes, listening to the music and thinking that I was watching "Wrath of Khan".
When Horner is great, he is great. In ST2 especially so. Provided you don't mind the similarities to "Jumanji" and stuff. And he's *not* a one-trick horse, as the "Mark of Zorro" score was great in a very different way. It's just that he has enough greatness in him for about one movie per decade...
Timo Saloniemi
Most of the memorable stuff in ZORRO is just another iteration of his BRAINSTORM stuff, mainly Louise Fletcher's heart attack. As much as I enjoyed the movie, I haven't upgraded from letterbox VHS on Zorro, mainly cuz I keep being distracted by the score. It is a lot like the battle cues in ALIENS that sound exactly like KHAN, which sounds just like WOLFEN, or the stealing the enterprise music that is in UNCOMMON VALOR.
To be fair, the same thing happens on most of Horner's 'modern action' movies as well ... 48 HRS and GORKY PARK and COMMANDO all use pretty much the same cues and the same orchestrations in the same kinds of scenes. Even though he does do some expert steals on occasion (parts of KHAN, for example), he usually makes the most generic choices in terms of practically re-sampling his own stuff time & again.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Ah, that may explain it then. I've never seen UNCOMMON VALOR. Probably why so much of TSFS sounds fairly original to me (barring what he reused from TWoK). I particularly love the "Spacedock" and "Stealing the Enterprise" themes -- didn't know the latter was lifted from one of his other movies.
However, you must realize familiarity will out. Unlike you, I do not hear the UNCOMMON VALOR score while watching TSFS, but if I ever see UNCOMMON VALOR, I will only be able to hear the score from TSFS.
--Jonah
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: However, you must realize familiarity will out. Unlike you, I do not hear the UNCOMMON VALOR score while watching TSFS, but if I ever see UNCOMMON VALOR, I will only be able to hear the score from TSFS.
--Jonah
Oh, the familiarity issue is absolutely a legit argument, I understand completely. Most Horner dates back to before his dad was out of diapers, to Prokofiev's film music, but if you start picking the nits to that degree, folks just kind of roll eyes at you.
But the thing that used to drive me crazy was when people bitched that TREK V 'stole' the theme to TNG ... you would not believe the number of folks back in 89 who didn't recognize the source for both being TMP.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
*sigh* Yes I would. I remember being sooooo grumpy back in '87 when everyone was loving the "new" theme for TNG, and would look at me blankly when I told them it was just the recycled TMP theme.
--Jonah
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
quote:But the thing that used to drive me crazy was when people bitched that TREK V 'stole' the theme to TNG ... you would not believe the number of folks back in 89 who didn't recognize the source for both being TMP.
I think most people were in a groggy slumber through most of that movie, so you can forgive them for not recalling the theme tune when they heard it again later. Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
When Horner is great, he is great.
Apollo 13.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by Reverend:
quote:But the thing that used to drive me crazy was when people bitched that TREK V 'stole' the theme to TNG ... you would not believe the number of folks back in 89 who didn't recognize the source for both being TMP.
I think most people were in a groggy slumber through most of that movie, so you can forgive them for not recalling the theme tune when they heard it again later.
That's a pretty tired and hoary old argument, mate. With that same kind of 'sharpheaded' thinking in mind, I suppose sequel films wouldn't have needed bumpy-headed klingons or the refit version of the E, since audiences would have been in that "groggy slumber" and wouldn't recall what the aliens or the starship looked like.
And I doubt any of the folks who DID later nod off were feeling too sleepy when the OPENING CREDITS played. I don't think a main theme ever etched itself in my mind any stronger on first hearing than that of TMP ... except maybe PATTON, which was JG again, nearly a decade earlier.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Speaking of the ST V Rockman...
I rented the DVD to see the extras and the Rockman test IS pretty bad. The costume would've been salvageable if you had someone who knew how to move in it, but the guy in the suit just lumbers around, and whoever's working the animatoric face isn't getting it to do anything interesting. Hell, even the Alien from the film of the same name looked pretty bad whenever they held on it too long.
Not that I'm defending the Rockman as a concept. It was a pretty weak idea for ending the film, even assuming they had the 10 Shatner wanted.
Makes me wonder what happened to the suit, tho!
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Looks like a Tholian with skin problems...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmart: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Timo: [qb] "Early" scores? I had the displeasure of seeing "Bicentennical Man" recently, and found that I could still enjoy the movie by closing my eyes, listening to the music and thinking that I was watching "Wrath of Khan". It is a lot like the battle cues in ALIENS that sound exactly like KHAN, which sounds just like WOLFEN, or the stealing the enterprise music that is in UNCOMMON VALOR.
"Stealing the Enterprise" from TSFS is one of the best movements of a movie score - ever. It's so exciting and uplifiting and just leaves you in space.
The reuse of elements in TFF from TMP are just themes - but they are different - they have more emotion behind them. That beautiful theme for TFF is only in TFF - and it's a doozy. The music when they are climbing over the rocks on Sha Ka Ree - the WHOLE planet stuff is amazing. The feel of it - gives me goosebumps... and then when the Klingons appear and no one notices and that is worked into the Sha Ka Ree theme but is soon overwhelmed again - as no one notices them.
Rating the soundtracks:
TFF TSFS TUC FC TWOK TMP Gen Ins Nem TVH
Why is it that the 'best' movie has the 'worst' score!?!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
From the STILLS the rockman looks good... rather reminiscent - of course of "The Beast" from Season 4 of Angel.
So who were the Rock people supposed to be - inidigenous inhabitants of the planet? Other prisoners on the planet? The ones who imprisoned 'god'?
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: From the STILLS the rockman looks good... rather reminiscent - of course of "The Beast" from Season 4 of Angel.
So who were the Rock people supposed to be - inidigenous inhabitants of the planet? Other prisoners on the planet? The ones who imprisoned 'god'?
Pretty sure the rock guy was supposed to be the remains of the God/Devil thing (though in earlier more expansive versions, the 'imps' and such that pursue KSM are there (in a different form) before any attack from the E happens, so they were minions before, as opposed to remnants (or a single remnant) in the later incarnation.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Rating the soundtracks:
TFF TSFS TUC FC TWOK TMP Gen Ins Nem TVH
Why is it that the 'best' movie has the 'worst' score!?! [/QB]
Cuz it AIN'T the best movie? (I used to always rank III & IV, the Nimoy-directed pics -- along with FIRST CONTACT -- as the worst Trekflicks, each for different reasons, though NEM definitely challenges those in a lot of ways.)
I DO agree with you on how good the TFF score is, especially in the earth and god planet sequences. Some other parts sound a little too much like RAMBO, though.
I think TMP and TFF are the best scores by far, and TWOK has got an awesomely fun score to listen to, despite its unoriginality. Back when friends and I made super-8 films, we used to always score them with TWOK battle cues.
There are small slivers of GEN that sound great (the stuff with Kirk aboard the -B is pretty solid), but most of that McCarthy score sounds like graduation music to me (a criticism I apply to a lot of film scoring, esp when John Williams decides to phone a film in.)
I think the 'missing score' in the bunch is what Horner might have done if they could have afforded him for TUC. I think he got a little bit more sophisticated by 1990 or so before slipping back into his usual routine, and he might have delivered something a bit off the beaten path that was still catchy at times (the actual TUC score is effective film music, but I don't like listening to it apart from the film.)
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I really like the TMP (DE?) intro. Listening to that great epic theme with a near black screen (apart from some faint stars streaking by) for minutes. Classy.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmart: I used to always rank III & IV, the Nimoy-directed pics -- along with FIRST CONTACT -- as the worst Trekflicks
You are a madman.
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by kmart: I used to always rank III & IV, the Nimoy-directed pics -- along with FIRST CONTACT -- as the worst Trekflicks
You are a madman.
No, but I do have an eye for a well-composed frame, something that is largely absent from the Nimoy pics (odd, given his bent for still photography), and I loathe the way ILM took over designing so many elements in the Nimoy films.
III is a squandered opportunity to do a really significant character piece and still deliver action ... it has the most absurd science ... it is much easier for me to buy into V's science goofs than III's ... 'get him off the planet and he'll stop aging ... does that mean if plot complication Q came in and moved the planet to a different orbit, it would stop aging? or if you just levitated a chunk of it 50 feet off the surface it would stop aging? Imbecilic writing, insulting in the extreme.
You've got tremendous potential squandered visually (not having them tap into a klingon cam so that Kirk can SEE his son die, justifying his collapse, is so fucking stupid) and dramatically (esp w/ regard to how easily the Enterprise is sacrificed and the whole non-logic of beaming down to a disintegrating planet instead of to a damaged small-crewed vessel.) III needed a much better screenplay and a visual stylist who could at least deliver live-action that approximated the slickness of the fx. It needed somebody other than Bennett writing, that is for sure.
IV is just a one-viewing movie that photographically is a disaster (nomination notwithstanding) with all that smoke everywhere (and I mean everywhere, not just the BOP -- check for the damn CLOUD BANK Chekov runs through while indoors aboard the carrier Enterprise.) It is funny at times, has a very nice series of payoffs at the end, and has zero resonance and a doze-off factor that is unbelievably high for me.
FC is just pathetic. It has wonderful ship miniature fx, especially the PHOENIX launch and many E-E shots, but the lameass Cochrane stuff is like seeing Earl Holliman in FORBIDDEN PLANET -- but in 1996!
And the 'let's give the stars scenery to chew' stuff is just over the top and embarassing -- 'the line must be drawn here' has got to rank among the alltime lamest line readings in feature trek, along with Shatner's 'Klingon Bastards in III and his variations on 'omigod' in TMP & TWOK.
Apart from the continuing Picard/Data show aspect, FC is plain-out misstructured as well ... it would probably have worked better to have the E-E duck out on the continuing battle with the cube to chase the sphere back through time, so then an hour or so later we could have a more extended and exciting finale that involved the E-E returning to century 24 and helping destroy the cube at the END of the movie.
If you can't see the validity of these points, then I put it to you that YOU are the madman.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So, you're insane.
That's cool, I guess.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
not having them tap into a klingon cam so that Kirk can SEE his son die, justifying his collapse, is so fucking stupid
Says you. Having him just listen to it has more effect for me.
esp w/ regard to how easily the Enterprise is sacrificed and the whole non-logic of beaming down to a disintegrating planet instead of to a damaged small-crewed vessel.
The one that they could easily be trapped on upon beaming to, should Kruge be smart, as he was?
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmart: If you can't see the validity of these points, then I put it to you that YOU are the madman.
Hey cool!
See, I've been thinking of making an off-topic page on my site. It would deal primarily with how different standards are used by fans when approaching different films, and how if one were to try hard enough, one could 'prove' the craptastic-ness of absolutely any of the Trek films, episodes, et cetera. To do so, one simply finds something to criticize and criticizes it loudly, whether the criticism is warranted or not, and then makes claims regarding what they feel would be superior (if necessary, stated as loosely as possible to allow the higher level of crappiness of their idea be well hidden, thereby allowing their concept to seem to flourish).
Given that your rant fits right in with that, mind if I quote you?
Posted by kmart (Member # 1092) on :
hey, feel free moron, just keep in mind I'm not applying trekkienut standards, just dramatic and cinematic ones.
Given how nitpicky everybody is round here about OBERTHs and other classes of ship, I'm amazed at the fucked up standards you seem to hold to on other matters.
And as to the other guy ... they needed to wind up on the other ship to live. there is no bartering position from a dying planet. You think there's a better one down there? no. If you don't get it ... well, why bother, I'm done here.
This place is unfortunately turning out to be as lame as trekbbs ... to those who DO have minds here, adieu. To the rest of you, go fuck yourselves, it'll be the only pleasure you can provide, going by the non-think 'tudes.
In the end I think maybe there's only sanity on starfarer and ilmfan boards.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
they needed to wind up on the other ship to live. there is no bartering position from a dying planet.
Funny, then, that they bartered their way off...
You know, I'm sorry if you can't stand people telling you they disagree with you. One of these days you're gonna run into someone who you can't tell to fuck themselves without paying a price you don't want to pay. Hopefully by then you'll have grown up, though.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
"To the rest of you, go fuck yourselves,"
Hey, not all of us are Gays and Lesbians.
Oh, wait.
Wait.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
Personally, I agree with a lot of what kmart had to say about Treks III and IV. I also disagree with a number of his thoughts, but viva la diff, eh?
Where the "conversation" went from there was more overdramatic than "KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!"
I think Guardian2000 hit on something, insomuch as everyone has their own criteria for what's good and bad. One man's good characterization is to another ham-fisted and clich�.
For instance, some people talk about the added depth given the characters in some of the films, like TWOK. But, to my eye, there's never any depth shown...there's just a scene or two where they say this or that somewhat-meaningful-thing and then forget about it amongst the action and the pointless throwaways given the supporting cast to justify their paychecks. I'm sure many here would disagree, but what to me is strong characterization has never been in evidence in any Trek film.
Back to Trek V, I promised Mim a counter-review, and it's gonna come. But in advance of that, le me say the one thing I do appreciate about Trek V is that it is a much better looking film (cinematography wise) than its two immediate predecessors. It's actually close to being a good looking movie. Too bad the effort was squandered on such a weak and misguided screenplay.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ultra Magnus: "To the rest of you, go fuck yourselves,"
Hey, not all of us are Gays and Lesbians.
Oh, wait.
Wait.
Someone get me the tranquilizer darts and the shotgun...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmart:
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR:
Why is it that the 'best' movie has the 'worst' score!?!
Cuz it AIN'T the best movie? [/QB]
Well that is why I put best in commas.
quote: There are small slivers of GEN that sound great (the stuff with Kirk aboard the -B is pretty solid), but most of that McCarthy score sounds like graduation music to me (a criticism I apply to a lot of film scoring, esp when John Williams decides to phone a film in.) [/QB]
Hehehe. Probably the last 'good' thing JW has scored is Hedwig's Theme from Harry Potter.
There are parts of Gen I like too. It's underrated yet sorta annoying at the same time.
quote:
I think the 'missing score' in the bunch is what Horner might have done if they could have afforded him for TUC. I think he got a little bit more sophisticated by 1990 or so before slipping back into his usual routine, and he might have delivered something a bit off the beaten path that was still catchy at times (the actual TUC score is effective film music, but I don't like listening to it apart from the film.) [/QB]
Well the interesting thing is too - Nick Myer wanted to use the Planets Suite by Holst!! That would have been crazy - although Eidelman did come up with something reminiscent but individual in it's own right.
I HAVE to so agree with you about TUC sounding fantastic and being the best score when watching the movie but when you actually listen to the score by itself - it's not that fun to listen to. What is it with that!?! I'd rather just listen to the Planets. But I always loved the TUC score - when watching the movie - especially the intro/start before the explosion of Praxis!
Andrew
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I don't know why I'm doing this, but...
quote:Originally posted by kmart: You've got tremendous potential squandered visually (not having them tap into a klingon cam so that Kirk can SEE his son die, justifying his collapse, is so fucking stupid) and dramatically (esp w/ regard to how easily the Enterprise is sacrificed and the whole non-logic of beaming down to a disintegrating planet instead of to a damaged small-crewed vessel.)
No, David's death is better the way it is, because it comes as even more of a shock to Kirk. There's a noise, he wonders what is going on, then the person from the race who hides their emotions has to matter-of-factly inform him that his son is dead. His collapse afterwards is brilliant, one of Kirk's best moments in the movies.
The Enterprise is sacrificed easily? I wouldn't say so. It was payment (along with David's death) for getting Spock back. It was due to be decommisioned anyway, but this way it got to go out helping our heroes to fulfil their mission of bring Spock back.
And the other point has already been addressed.
quote:Apart from the continuing Picard/Data show aspect, FC is plain-out misstructured as well ... it would probably have worked better to have the E-E duck out on the continuing battle with the cube to chase the sphere back through time, so then an hour or so later we could have a more extended and exciting finale that involved the E-E returning to century 24 and helping destroy the cube at the END of the movie.
Oh yes, that would be much better. Then we'd get the climax of the Phoenix going to warp, and Picard killing the Queen, followed by the resolution of the whole "First Contact" idea where the Vulcans appear, followed by ANOTHER climax involving a Big Star Wars-Type Battle, and then ANOTHER resolution showing...what?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Slight;y off topic, but along the same lines, this was posted over at SSM forums:
quote: Did anyone else see Star Trek VI as a big Scooby Doo episode?
(the would-be assassin has just fallen to his death.)
(Kirk in a red Ascot) - "This isn't Klingon blood, and when we remove the mask, we'll discover the identity of the Khitomer Sniper."
*peel*
(Everyone) - "It's Colonel West!"
(Uhura, back in a skimpy 60's dress) - "And the Romulan Ambassador was his partner!"
(Romulan Ambassador) - "And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling Feds and that Klingon dog!"
(Michael Dorn) - "Reah! Rooby rooby ROO!!!"
This sums up my evaluation of STVI as well.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Well done. Everyone else was making those jokes about 12 years ago, but it's good to see you're making the effort.
Hey, why doesn't Professor X just use the Enterprise against Magneto? And what if Archer were actually not Archer, but, like, was "leaping" from "place" "to" "place"? Eh? EH? I'll ask the audience. You are the weakest link. Etc.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
You've been online yakking about trek for TEN YEARS!?! Holy fuck. I thought I was an uber-geek and I've only been online for a year and a half...
Sir, I salute your unfuckability!
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmart: Given how nitpicky everybody is round here about OBERTHs and other classes of ship, I'm amazed at the fucked up standards you seem to hold to on other matters.
That's not true. Flare does tend to be a more technically oriented board, but there are plenty of us who are focused on dramatic/cinematic standards. The treknology stuff is interesting, but it ain't everything.
quote:Originally posted by kmart: This place is unfortunately turning out to be as lame as trekbbs ... to those who DO have minds here, adieu. To the rest of you, go fuck yourselves, it'll be the only pleasure you can provide, going by the non-think 'tudes.
Hey, no need to storm off, man. Because someone prefers 'First Contact' over 'TMP' doesn't make them stupid. It just makes them after different things. I think the miniature works in FC rides roughshod over even TWOK, but fx are not my primary criteria. Perhaps also because continuity and scientific plausibility aren't my main criteria, I feel that TWOK is the best movie ever made. But other people will think differently and those people probably aren't writers, kmart. So storming off isn't going to change their minds and it's going to reduce the population of sane people on this board, so don't let them get to you.
OTOH I like that sense of powerlessness that Kirk had having to only being able to listen to Savik tell him his son was dead. That impotence combined with scuttling his own ship really constasts nicely with the exciting and empowering theft of the Enterprise/sabotage of the Excelsior. There were some ridiculous dramatic problems with the picture and the Kirk vs. Kruge fight is funny every time, but I felt it was pretty good. And my dad likes 4 the best, so it can't be that awful.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane: Hey, no need to storm off, man. Because someone prefers 'First Contact' over 'TMP' doesn't make them stupid.
No. It makes them normal.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by kmart: hey, feel free moron, just keep in mind I'm not applying trekkienut standards, just dramatic and cinematic ones.
Given how nitpicky everybody is round here about OBERTHs and other classes of ship, I'm amazed at the fucked up standards you seem to hold to on other matters.
And as to the other guy ... they needed to wind up on the other ship to live. there is no bartering position from a dying planet. You think there's a better one down there? no. If you don't get it ... well, why bother, I'm done here.
This place is unfortunately turning out to be as lame as trekbbs ... to those who DO have minds here, adieu. To the rest of you, go fuck yourselves, it'll be the only pleasure you can provide, going by the non-think 'tudes.
In the end I think maybe there's only sanity on starfarer and ilmfan boards.
Well, that certainly didint take long did it? Can anyone confirm this was'nt the return of Mountain Troll? I'd have thought not, but that parting shot has me wondering...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
As a side note, I'm watching Shatner's greatest performance. Airplane II. He so really funny in that! Intentionally even! Me am good translator!
[ October 29, 2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Wow Jason, I didn't know you where Korean.. hmm.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"But other people will think differently and those people probably aren't writers, kmart."
Oh, hey, if you haven't PITCHED A STORY TO PARAMOUNT at least once in your LONG AND PROSPEROUS career, then your ideas cannot POSSIBLY have merit because, as we all know, the standards held by mere simpletons like you and me are so fucked up as to be irreconcilable with those of freelancing writers of kmart's stature and endowment.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Kmart's right! Movie writers should cater their scripts to the statistically insignifigant percentage of the population that are screenwriters themselves, rather than what the bulk of fans would enjoy. Sure to be a blockbuster that way.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Can anyone confirm this was'nt the return of Mountain Troll?
He might have been a touch over-sensitive there with the end, but surely kmart wasn't even close to how annoying Mountain Man was. And he usuallly put his apostrophes in the proper spot. He knew a lot and was interesting. So I for one am sorry to see him go, and I'm sorry he let you catty bitches get to him. What was everyone's beef with him exactly, again? Defending TFF?
OTOH, and in response to:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: ...Sure to be a blockbuster that way.
But you see that's assuming you want a blockbuster. Do you know what else was a blockbuster? "Independence Day". Now I'm not saying it wasn't a great movie, but I mean it did have Randy Quaid in it. Know what else? "Batman: Forever". Hell the pants remake of "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" was the number one movie in the US last week.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane: What was everyone's beef with him exactly, again? Defending TFF?
Good god no, since I spend a lot of time defending it myself. Not so much because I like it, you see, but because I really can't grasp how someone would rather sit through 2 hours of mind numbing boredom in the shape of TMP, instead of 2 hours of entertaining drivel.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Why obviously it's because the deck count is accurate in TMP.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Wow, I had no idea my "moron"ic jab would drive 'kmart' to the breaking point.
What I find more disturbing, however, is that there is mention in the thread that he is a writer. Given that he is (A) ostensibly a Trek fan and (B) would delete such moments as "the line must be drawn here", Kirk's response to David's death, and basically any other display of human emotion, I think it likely that he would be hired instantly and adored by B&B.
There is a place for any opinion, mind you. And if kmart's appreciation for films is based more on technical matters and a peculiar sense of drama that has sprung from that, then, well, whatever. I can't help but be reminded, though, of a music professor of my acquaintance (indirectly, through various students of his over the years). It is his position, held with dogmatic rigor, that the height of music has nothing to do with emotion or even audience enjoyment. The best music is that which is the most technically advanced, he believes . . . the series of notes and the transformations employed on them are the only things of consequence. We're not talking pop music vs. classical, even . . . old classical is crap to him, albeit historic crap. We're not even talking about the gimmicks of John Cage. I can barely describe what we are referring to, in fact.
I have been played example pieces of music that he finds acceptable . . . they involve dissonant notes, often slowly played, that are approximately as moving as traffic noise. Hell, I once attended a performance of one of his compositions . . . though I've never been tempted to fall asleep at such a thing, and though I was seeing the girl who was playing and thus was inclined to pay attention, I was still moved . . . toward unconsciousness.
It was when I was first exposed to this that I realized the vast discrepancy that can exist between what the common man (or even the less than common man) believes to constitute good ____, and what the overly technical and theoretical ____ elitist's tastes are. Best case scenario, that's the difference between kmart and everyone else.
In reality, though, I figure he's just an idiot.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That's what claw hammers and scotchguarded clothing are for.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
I don't think kmart is an idiot. It's his reaction that was idiotic. I had respect for some of his opinions even if I didn't agree with them. On the other hand, the moment he started lashing out over a relatively puny slight made me lose that respect. And, as a writer myself, I can't support a writer who has to resort to "f u"...that shows a staggering lack of creativity in the discourse of insults. Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
No, no, see, it was actually a heaping of extra abuse, because he had to talk down to the little people so they might be able to comprehend. And he typed it real slowly, too. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If only he had spelled phonetically, I might have understood his wisdom.
He sacrificed himself for our sins!
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Uh, yeah, okay.....
I had no idea that you people had driven another, yes, yet another person away....
What is your tally now???
Speaking of people here, I haven't seen Jeff in a while....
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Driven away is a big word.. some people disagreed with him, he got upset and ran. Oh well. One more silly person to add to the list.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Hooray for assholes.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
but I didn't get to play, that is all I am upset about.....
We do seem to have a fair amount of cutting and running, makes it kind of interesting, or is that just me being easily amused????
No matter....
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
We didint even haze him! No...we welcomed his opinions with open arms, polite responses (well, for us anyway) and he still ran away!
It's like the time when I was six and I thought puppies shed their skin and.....uh....we'll not get into that.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Everyone go watch "Revenge of the Nerds II (Nerds in Paradise)" again. We've a valuable lesson about acceptance to learn from the lesser Carradine.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
blahhhh!!!!!
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Insignificant Update: I still think many of you are assholes, and I'm mad at you for needlessly picking on such a sensitive writer.
Significant Update: Just purchased and watched the SE and STV is still not a good movie. God, the original Shatner interview is just painful to watch. And some of the indulgent crap he says on the commentary is really cringey. Watch the part where he introduces his crewmates at the Press Conference. It hurts. I think I need to believe he was just so busy with the production... I mean I still adore the man, but jeeeez.
The big three scenes are really terrific, even better than I remembered. The God scenes and other action scenes were even worse than I'd remembered. It's too bad. Seems like there could have been a very cool movie in there somewhere, but it kind of got mucked up in Hollywood egos, crap writing, budgetary restraints (hopefully none of which was ever spent on Ralph Winter's sweaters), and studio interference. Still the flick has some very enjoyable performances, surprisingly terrific camera-work (and some of the best rear-projection work I've ever paid attention to), and a few good laughs. A lot of the extra features are more or less crap and no one at any point really admits that pretty much everyone thinks this one is the stinkiest potato in the sack...
Nits:
Dude, did Sybock get the ritualistic pre-Sha Ka Ree haircut before setting down?
C'mon, 72 decks? PH4ZZOR$ ON KLILLL!!!1!!
C'mon, Sulu's a better pilot than that.
So, uh, was Uhura naked? The extras didn't say. The cryptic bastards.
Galactic center's Great Barrier? Great Barrier! No, but. Great Barrier?
Surviving a Photon Torpedo strike at 10 meters? Priceless.
Action is paced all stupid
Not enough deleted scenes AT ALL
Not enough behind the scenes AT ALL
Like, ZERO acknowledgment of the fact that people totally fucking hate this movie.
Mike Okuda's jaw is getting huge now.
Possibly I'm just rationalizing the money I spent on it, but I'm glad I own this DVD.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So you're proud of owning a movie that you yourself admit is shit? Good for you! I bought Two Towers special edition for only five bucks more than that steaming pile of excerment. Enjoy your movie.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
If you take a vidcap and ramp up the gamma, you can see what Uhura's wearing.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Didn't know you were into 'mature'...
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: ...I bought Two Towers special edition for only five bucks more than that steaming pile of excerment. Enjoy your movie.
Well clearly the Two Towers SE would be the priority. I'm just saying that STV shouldn't be automatically lumped in with the Fullscreen Steven Segal, Zalman King, Krap Kung Fu video transfer mono-audio discount discs (you know? The ones listing "Interactive Menu" as a sole special feature.) It's above that. OTOH, I do generally tend to spell excrement correctly.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It was the Special Edition of TT. ANd any movie (like STV) that I wont watch for free on TNN is nothing I'll ever buy.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Are you arguing against points people aren't making, again?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by TheWoozle: If you take a vidcap and ramp up the gamma, you can see what Uhura's wearing.
Really? Pic? Not that I'm 'into' that - I'm just Cuhuraious.
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Give me character moments over space battles any day...![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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