I was watching Nemesis last night and something kept bothering and then I figured it out. How is it in that each of theses movies Worf somehow manages to show up? Doesn't he have a job to do on DS9? I can understand how he mananged it in First Contact, but Insurrection and Nemesis?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
As of Nemesis DS9 was over, and Worf was actually (at last report) the Federation Ambassador to the Klingon empire. Presumably he took some time off and went to see his friends get married. Insurrection there was no explanation.
Posted by Reverend (Member # 335) on :
There was an explanation in Insurrection but it was barely audible. Basically he just happened to be in the sector and decided to visit.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I suppose that one could argue that Worf doesn't show up for every important event on the E-E. Other important things go on, but they only make movies about the ones at which Worf is present.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
$Spoiler$
There was dialog that was filmed, but cut from Nemesis. It had Worf saying he wasn't suited for life as an ambassador and quit to return to Starfleet and a posting to the Enterprise. On the other hand, since they were at Earth for a short time, they should have had O'Brien and his family at the ceremony.
Posted by Proteus (Member # 212) on :
Do written, filmed, but edited out scenes count as official canon? By very definition, yeah. They do.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
But then the rock-man is canon. And that just can't be right.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Stuff not shown onscreen is not canon. NO sane man would consider "Rock Man" canon. TAS is also not canon as it's the product of bad drugs and cat-men with pink spacesuits.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Some of TAS (mainly ones that fleshed out TOS crew backstory) Canon, like Yesteryear.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
No, technically, it's not, but Okuda and co put some parts of Spock's backstory from yesteryear into the chronology. There's a fairly big difference.
quote:Originally posted by Proteus: Do written, filmed, but edited out scenes count as official canon? By very definition, yeah. They do.
Your definition is strange and confusing, as is your use of full stops.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"But then the rock-man is canon. And that just can't be right."
The glowy God-face thingy is canon. How would TEH RCOK MONTSAR be any worse? B)
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Deleted scenes may not be considered canon, but Okuda did indicate the existence of a USS Ticonderoga from Insurrection and we consider that as canon. I suppose until Okuda acknowledges Worf's resignation as an ambassador, that won't be considered canon.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Do we?
Anyway, an even better reason for not including Worf's resignation as ambassador is that it is a bad move, storywise. (Though, admittedly, it did sort of come out of nowhere at the end of DS9, but one has to take character growth where one can get it.)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
It doesn't really affect things anyway, since we're not likely to get more late 24th century stuff for a good long while, if ever.
Well, filmed Trek isn't. I don't know about the books.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The books arent canon mainly because Kirk and company would have to have gad a galaxy-saving adventure every few hours of their five year mission to account for all the stories written in the past 30 years.
'Course, that would explain Kirk's needing the hairpiece: Stress.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Er, I know the books aren't canon. Everyone knows. I meant that I don't know what Worf is doing in the books.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Oh. uh.... I think he's in the Left Hand of Destiny books but I havent picked those up.
The Lost Era book centering on the Brektra Nebula conflict and the Khitomer massacre is really worth checking out though: it involves General Worf (from STVI) and then Mogh. The Romulans actualy had a reason for killing everyone back then other than the old Z"we hate klingons" line.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
I don't have anything emotionally invested in the idea of Worf being Federation ambassador to the Klingons. It's obviously meant to be a placeholder, as it were, since Michael Dorn's character was more than likely going to end up back on the Enterprise come the next TNG film. I have mixed feelings about whether his being ambassador on his home world makes good sense for his character development or not - is he, in a sense, finally going home, or has he really moved on, and has already copme to terms with his curious human/Klingon heritage? - especially since it's unlikely to ever be explored further in any filmed Trek.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'd have to go with "he's moved on". Having him return to the Enterprise (and not as XO) is a big step backward after all the command training and experience they developed into the character on DS9. One on the best parts of Nemesis (for me) was Worf mentioning to Riker that "the Romulans fought with honor". That's a huge development from TNG's season two where he wouldnt save that Romulan via transfusion. I liked that.
If they'd only shot a scene with him accepting the XO position after data died, I'd be happy with him back on Enterprise.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The point of the end of DS9 seemed to be that everyone was moving on... finding the place they were really supposed to be. Worf was finally going home but without having to give up the human side of his heritage completely. Nemesis' cut line about not being suited for it sort of flushes that, in my opinion.
FC's tie-in to DS9 was a great way to bring him back into the movie, I think. In fact, I always thought that FC should've started out with Worf and the Defiant and followed them into the battle only to be rescued by the new Enterprise in a wham bam kick ass glory shot showing us just what this new ship can do.
Insurrection's tie in was quite a bit worse, but the fact that there seems to have been noone to do his job while he was gone is somewhat silly. Daniels doesn't really seem to have impressed Picard all that much.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
I also thought Worf would be coming on as Picard's XO. My opinion is Picard would want someone he trusted and had the rank and experience necessary for the position. Plus in the chance they actually did do another Trek movie we wouldn't need some lame reason for him being in it.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Yeah! In "Parallels" he actually was XO!
OK, so we know that books aren't canon unless made canon (like Jeri Taylor books). I wonder if movie novelization count? For example, according to Nemesis novelization, Worf indeed choose to return to Starfleet (and Wesley is going to serve under Riker on Titan )
Anyway, I don't see much problem in this case: Worf obviously did return to Starfleet. This cut scene merely tells us why.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Maybe the same snafu that would prevent him ever getting his own command would count against him being made XO of one of the most powerful and prestigious ships in the fleet. Perhaps the fact that such a position, perfect for training up-and-coming captains, had been unavailable for 15 years meant that while Starfleet would have been happy to see Data confirmed as first officer, they would have drawn the line at Picard immediately choosing someone else from his own crew.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmmm.....I had'nt thought of Starfleet wanting to shake up Picard's little clique of officers. Of course, if their policy was to spread around the fleet's best and brightest, they's have broken up Kirk's crew too. At least Sulu esacped.
As to Worf's SNAFU costing him any shot of a commision, I figure he would be considered if Sisko had thought that far ahead and made a notation in his record. And starfleet lost a LOT of experienced officers in the war.
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Of course, if their policy was to spread around the fleet's best and brightest, they's have broken up Kirk's crew too. At least Sulu esacped.
Technically, Chekov escaped too, being reassigned to Reliant.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
By unfortunately Kirk found out and decided to destroy Reliant, forcing Chekov to return Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Scotty was transferred as well. But then, that was only when they thought Enterprise would be decomissioned.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
And Spock and McCoy both retired from the fleet. Heck, even Kirk wasn't supposed to have commanded the Enterprise ever again before TMP.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:Maybe the same snafu that would prevent him ever getting his own command would count against him being made XO of one of the most powerful and prestigious ships in the fleet.
Y'know, I bought the Season VI DVD set when it came out, and I rewatched that episode for the first time since it aired ... but it should be noted that when Sisko is explaining the reprimand to Worf, he doesn't say that it will absolutely preclude him from his own command - he simply notes that it will be very difficult for Worf to get his own command. I.E., he needs to earn back Starfleet's trust that he will put the good of the mission over his own personal good.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Absolutely. It was hardly an ideal situation. No-one would let their wife die in favour of saving some Cardassian spy or whatever he was. They weren't even meant to be there in the first place.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Yeah, but look at it from Starfleet's POV. "Um, you let a Cardassian spy with lots of know-it-all about Dominion troop deployments get killed. Ok, great, you saved her life, but, gee golly, we might've been able to end the war a heck of a lot sooner. You chose the good of your wife over the good of millions of Federation citizens."
I'm not faulting Worf for his actions, I'm just saying Starfleet's position isn't exactly being unreasonable either.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Kazeite: OK, so we know that books aren't canon unless made canon (like Jeri Taylor books).
Except they aren't anymore. Sorry.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Is this recently they aren't?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
No. It's been pretty much since Taylor left Voyager and they started to contradict them in the show.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
So what does that prove? I think all Trek series have contradicted not only themselves, but the other sister series as well at most points.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Buh?
The Taylor written books had a special "almost canon" quality to them because they were written by someone who was an executive producer at the time, as well as being an active particpant on the writing team. So she had the power to make them canon. After she left, the staff were under no obligation to continue to pay attention to the books, and so they didn't.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Worf's in deeper than that. He also had a formal reprimand on his record for when he killed Duras.
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Not that Starfleet gives a shit about Duras. NOt like it hurt relations with the Empire any.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Wasn't that. Watch the episode. Worf was acting in a manner inappropriate for a Starfleet officer when he went vigilante and killed a member of the Klingon High Council on his own ship.
--Jonah
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
And, of course, he also conducted that little "murder brother to save family honor" ritual...
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Yeah, but the difference is that Kurn wasn't on the High Council anymore when Worf assisted in the suicide. On the other hand, not only was Duras on the High Council, he had a good shot at becoming Chancellor. It'd be like aliens coming to Earth and assassinating a presidential candidate. That can't really be good.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Given that recent Trek producers are contradicting their own work, I think that fact that they contradicted Jery Taylor books couple of times hardly makes them non-canon
Anyway, this is hardly relevant to the tales of Worf Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
It's not that. It's just that, well, there's no reason for them to be considered canon at all. They were only originally that because Taylor said so. And she has no power now, so it becomes moot.
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: Wasn't that. Watch the episode. Worf was acting in a manner inappropriate for a Starfleet officer when he went vigilante and killed a member of the Klingon High Council on his own ship.
You mean like when Dax went and killed that Albino (or whatever) during Blood Oath? At least Worf was acting within the bounds of his culture.
And what about when Riker went against a planetary government simply because he fancied the local lady-boy?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Worf was acting in a manner inappropriate for a Starfleet officer when he went vigilante and killed a member of the Klingon High Council on his own ship.
Accurate, but I somehow doubt it'll matter THAT much, so long as it had no lasting negative consequences.
It'd be like aliens coming to Earth and assassinating a presidential candidate.
I don't think that's a valid analogy. Worf was well within his rights as a Klingon. Starfleet was the only entity that really cared, and they obviously not much.
As for canon, in my capacity as pragmatism incarnate I think that perhaps canon should be defined as whatever the writers are required to remain consistant with. Basically, how far can the writers go without someone in-house saying "Hey, we can't do that"?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'd tend to go with that. And I can't see too many people being bothered if they violate the Taylor books. I mean, how many people have read them compared to who watch the show?
Omega is right there, too. Word WAS in his rights as a Klingon. Starfleet's attitde towards non-human races' rights is a bit haphazard (and slightly racist to boot). Riker wouldn't let Ro wear her earing initially, even though Worf could wear his sash. Kirk wasn't allowed to retrieve Spock's body, because an admiral didn't understand "vulcan mysticism" (and these are Vulcans. One of the most important races in the Federation).
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
There was a Klingon named Word? Was he under Microsoft's control? Owned by them? Property rights?
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: It's not that. It's just that, well, there's no reason for them to be considered canon at all. They were only originally that because Taylor said so. And she has no power now, so it becomes moot.
So, all that Trek episode produced by people no longer "in power" are non-canon as well now? Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Oh, don't be picky.
Trek episodes are automatically canon. Books aren't. The Taylor books were only canon because she was a big-wig at the time. Now she's not.
It's fairly irrelevent, since they aren't likely to have Janeway's past feature on any new episode of Trek for, well, ever, but I'm pretty sure the producers said in season 6 that they don't really pay attention to the books anymore. I doubt that most of them had even read them.
If you must, I can see them being put in the same "sort of" canon catagory as Yesteryear, but it's still a highly pointless argument.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
So basically they are as canon as they need to be to clearify a vague episode-spoken backstory as need be, as the case with TAS and the references to both "yesteryear" and uhh.."time trap"....
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Yeah. It comes down to how much of a fan the writer of the episode is, as in the case of Ron Moore's dropping of TAS references, and the fact that Okuda and co really like "Yesteryear".
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I never got the impression that Ro's earring really violated, in itself, any Starfleet dress code. Just that said code is, within limits, up to one's CO, and Riker obviously had issues with her he did not have with Worf. He's lucky she didn't complain to somebody higher up. Would have made a thrilling episode of Starfleet: JAG.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Besides....Roker really couldnt saw anything about Ro after he fucked her and all.
Edit: that was supposed to read "Riker".
[ December 16, 2003, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Sadly, Star Trek: The Today Show is always preempted here.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Wow. My usual lackluster typing skills take a drastic downturn after thriteen hours of work.
And the thought of Al Roker bedding Ro Laren both sickens and amuses me. I salute your depravity, sir!
Posted by WizArtist (Member # 1095) on :
At least Worf advanced to a meaningful character. In the beginning his only responsibility was to walk over and slap the Alien BadDUDE-du-jour a couple of times so that he could be knocked backward a couple hundred feet to show just how bad the alien was.
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