I know that this has been talked about before, but I did a quick search and the last time there was a post on this, it was a year ago. So here it is.
Star Trek has always been about a bunch of explorers well... exploring. Now where did Star Trek go wrong? (if it went wrong) No, I am not talking about silly little continuity errors or the like. I am talking about concepts and ideas.
I think after the TNG era, Star Trek started involving situations with more and more resources. This was not necessarily a bad thing. After all, having Sisko on a space station near a wormhole, and later having a little ship to fly around in, meant enough plot flexibility to bring the characters into new situations.
However, more resources always comes with a price. Having Voyager and Enterprise fly around solo was more in the spirit, but technobabble always seemed to get in the way. How often were problems solved because of the use of some sort of cutting-edge technology, rather than through the character's own actions? One could argue that the character's actions precipitated the technology, for example Torres fixing the warp core, or Seven giving Voyager a new kind of armor.
I realize that my idea might fly in the face of years of Trek experience... but why not have a new series that focuses on the actions of a few individuals, rather than the exploits of a crew?
Maybe three or four well-thought out characters going through Starfleet Academy. Or maybe a few characters part of some sort of "Hazard Squad". Anything to rejuvenate a series that seems to be rehashing old concepts and relying on eye-candy.
And please, no more boob factor... not that having attractive characters is a bad thing, but having them wear different uniforms to stand out and attract a new audience? It wouldn't be bad having another strong female character besides Janeway.
Am I the only one that longs for the days when problems were solved through the character and moral choices of James T. Kirk, rather than inventing technobabble X to solve problem Y and showing some cool special effects? And I was born in 1984 for god's sake.
Get Star Trek together, or I might end up not watching it anymore.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
I'm still sticking with the idea that was bought up last time this was discussed of a Hornblower like series, centering on one officer, with a number of semi-regular/recurring characters. Each series could focuss on a different posting and so be in a different situation with different characters and yet there would still be scope for character development.
Similar to the idea you mentioned above but without necessarily having them part of some special operations unit or whatever.
Posted by brianeyci (Member # 1400) on :
Who could forget Horatio Hornblower! Yes, if Star Trek focused on character development like Horatio Hornblower by following the exploits of one or a few officers through Starfleet, it would be great. Since there would have to be enough material to justify a series, perhaps they could start out in Starfleet Academy, or even earlier, and we could see them progress through the ranks in different postings.
Yes, special operations is not really Trek-like, and eventually types of plots would be dull. How many times can you send the Hazard Team to board a borg cube before it becomes lame.
Brian
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I think it would be interesting to see something thats broader than one ship. What are the odds that X ship is ALWAYS where the action is? ALWAYS the closest ship in the sector? ALWAYS SOMETHING?
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: I think it would be interesting to see something thats broader than one ship. What are the odds that X ship is ALWAYS where the action is? ALWAYS the closest ship in the sector? ALWAYS SOMETHING?
Slim to none? Posted by brianeyci (Member # 1400) on :
A good writer would be able to make even routine supply runs be episode material. Every encounter need not be a fight with the Borg. If Star Trek was focused less on the technobabble, and more on individual characters/a character, it would be far more profitable to watch IMO.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Profitable to watch?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Yes! If you want enjoyment, character development AND profit, then I have just the show for you! *brushes dust off his Quark, P.I. treatment*
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(I would so watch that.)
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
(It just seemed to me that so many spin-off shows involved one character from the original moving to another place and becoming a private detective. I can't actually think of any examples apart from Angel and, er, Baywatch Nights, and possibly Frasier.)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(So here is the pitch: Quark, feeling alienated by the direction Ferengi society seems to be going, packs his bags and hits the roads as a freelance financial consultant. A one-man Space IMF. In the first season he's on Cardassia, "helping" with the rebuilding process, so that we can have plenty of DS9 guest stars show up, and he's building up this big scam except his hidden niceness keeps getting in the way and he gives out sound advice from time to time. Who wouldn't watch?)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
...and Quark could live on a reclusive writer's estate and there'd be this butler named Higgins and....
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Jason's leaning more toward my way of thinking. I saw Quark solving crimes on Risa, you see. . .
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So....does that make Morn "T.C."? Nog as "Rick"?
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
i think that a series focussing on just one character could definetly work, with a few recurring characters in the background. after all, the previous shows always seemed to gravitate to the core characters anyway, like bones/kirk/spock, or picard/data, or janeway/seven. DS9 seemed to stay clear of this trap though. maybe they just had more diverse characters.
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
I think a Hornbloweresc type series would rock! But also there had been some talk about doing a anthology series, more like a miniseries where each episode would focus on a different race each week but without having a main character. It would be interesting to if the cast was the same for the whole run and how each of these actors would interpret Klingons, Romualns, Humans, Dominions, etc, etc, etc.
:{)
Posted by JimNX01 (Member # 1484) on :
I think a Star Trek series based on an Intellegence service would be interesting. A small band of Starfleet "CIA" infiltrating say the Romulans.
Just my 2 bars of gold pressed latinum.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The best would be a series focusing on resurrecting months-old threads to rehash endlessly debated ideas that will affect nothing.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
You know, the harsh and insulting treatment of new members on these forums is starting to get old. Like it or not, Flare has been dying after the end of DS9, VOY, and the last of the TNG movies. If you're so annoyed by the resurrections of old threads, why don't you lock them after a certain amount of dormant time instead of snapping at these people like an immature teenager eager to announce that he's one of the "in crowd" around here?
Supposedly Flare is more civil than other forums, but it's becoming more obvious that it's probably just more conceited.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Locking old threads is an idea. But the time limit would have to be rather long, say 2-3 months? I know this is practiced over at the SCN, but they lock threads that are only a month old-ish.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Why lock old threads at all?
Posted by Brown_supahero (Member # 83) on :
I'm all trekked out. Send you're concepts in ten years or so.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Supposedly Flare is more civil than other forums, but it's becoming more obvious that it's probably just more conceited."
Actually, we're both, but it's kind of you to notice.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"Flare has been dying after the end of DS9, VOY, and the last of the TNG movies."
And this little statistic of yours is based on what, the number of new topics started per month? Since, by your logic, every other Trek-related board out there should be dying as well, I do hope you have some incontrovertible evidence to support your claim, and that said evidence accounts for minor details like the size of Flare's active membership and the oh-so tiny fact that most of those members don't actually come here for Trek at all. Nevertheless, I eagerly await your findings, sir.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
But I got a similar impression. When DS9 and VOY were still in production there was much more going on at Flare.
Nowadays I come here say once in a week and almost nothing has happened. In former times I would check several times daily, and a lot of threads had new answers.
Perhaps finally, all has been said, asked and answered about Trek...
Anyway, moving on...
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The argument could be that there was simply more to talk about. Two series and quite often a movie, compared to just the one.
I do dislike the whole "we've spoken about this before so we won't speak or it again" attitude, but I can see where it's coming from. Especially in "what should the next series be"? Someone ALWAYS suggests a Section-31 or similar show. Someone ALWAYS suggests an anthology show. Someone ALWAYS suggests a show based on an alien ship (never mind that commercially that idea would be suicide).
I wonder how many people back in season 3 of TNG said to themselves "what they should do for a spin-off is set it on a Starbase above a planet that could be a parallel for, like Bosnia or something. And there would be a wormhole nearby! With uber-aliens in! And there would be all this religious stuff"?
I'm just not convinced that a good Trek TV show can be made with a soundbite description. "It's Trek, but in the future!" "It's Trek, but in the past!" "It's Trek, but like, really far away!"
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: I do hope you have some incontrovertible evidence to support your claim, and that said evidence accounts for minor details like the size of Flare's active membership and the oh-so tiny fact that most of those members don't actually come here for Trek at all. Nevertheless, I eagerly await your findings, sir.
If your memory really is so faulty, I'm sure you can ask Charles for statistics.
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: I do dislike the whole "we've spoken about this before so we won't speak or it again" attitude, but I can see where it's coming from. Especially in "what should the next series be"? Someone ALWAYS suggests a Section-31 or similar show. Someone ALWAYS suggests an anthology show. Someone ALWAYS...
And someone ALWAYS acts like a prick and posts some snippy comment as if he's the uber-geek or some other nonsense. Wow, like we didn't see that coming.
That kind of behavior is annoying in real life, and it's just as annoying to see it here (and even more annoying than bringing up old threads).
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I think we've been on the internet for too long. They should leave it alone for 5 years, and then start again with a new information superthingie.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
I think that locking a thread after a month has gone by without any activity is prudent. If someone has something new to add they can start another thread--- if it's important then it will be enough to justify a new post.. if it's not important enough for a new post, then people will be less likely to post it and we'll be happy again.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
We're snobs. You don't like it, fuck off. That should probably be in the FAQ. That said, I don't especially think any of us believe ourselves to be better Trekkies than any of the newbies who turn up, it's just that we like a more sophisticated level of debate. If you just want to register as grnad ADMIRAL Picard XIV and post things like "I LIKE TEH TNG aND TEH Ds9 = ROXXOR!! But I DNO'T LIEK VOYAGER!!!? And please visit my website which has lots of Quark/Neelix slash fanfic" then maybe you'd be better off somewhere else. Like TrekWeb.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Oh wow! Such a sophisticated level of debate you just showed everyone there with that excellent post. Why don't you show me where someone posted things such as "I LIKE TEH TNG aND TEH Ds9 = ROXXOR!! But I DNO'T LIEK VOYAGER!!!?" in this thread before going off on your childish tirade because right now you're "debating" less like a snob and more like an imbecile.
Yes, why don't we just set a new policy of locking old threads after a few months. Even better, why not make it so that new members can't start new threads but only reply to active ones started by us snobby veterans. After they've proven they can post something besides "TEH Ds9 = ROXXOR!!" they can then earn the right to start a new topic. After all, we're a tight little community here at Flare, and this is our little clubhouse, damn it! Didn't they see the sign "NO stoopid people allowed, CUZ WE=SUPER+COOL!!!!!" outside?
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Why lock old threads at all?
Because it's annoying of course! And that way, when a newbie creates a thread, we can all scream, "USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION, CRETIN!"
And to those again who don't believe Flare's activity has gone down since the old days, the only reason this months-old thread was "resurrected" by an unsuspecting newbie was because it was still on the first page of the General Trek forum, even when the discussion had "ended" back in October.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
Oh well, I think we should perhaps go out in the open more often again, get some sunlight, meet some real people, and forget about the Internet completely - at least for a few minutes... Posted by Krenim (Member # 22) on :
quote:Originally posted by Austin Powers: Oh well, I think we should perhaps go out in the open more often again, get some sunlight, meet some real people, and forget about the Internet completely - at least for a few minutes...
Someone please sedate Mr. Powers; he's speaking nonsense. Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
I hate to say it but as someone who has been here for a while now and is only now getting round to posting, this place and some of the people in it can tend towards unfriendly at times...I am by no means inexperienced when it comes to internet usage and am an old hand at forums (hell, I teach web design) but this is one of the few places I have ever felt a little apprehensive about posting for the first time - and IMO that is not a good thing.
If what is being said here is true about the decline in overall activity - and I am taking no position in that one because I have no access to readily accessible figures or the experience over the long term to remember Flare as it was 2 / 3 / 4 years back - then the only way to combat that is to see new people coming here to introduce new ideas, new concepts and new things to debate about.
That said if you're serious about forgetting about the internet, the beers are round at mine! :-) And as a relatively new poster here, if it helps at all I could probably find it in myself to take one for the team and type out "I LIKE TEH TNG aND TEH Ds9 = ROXXOR!! But I DNO'T LIEK VOYAGER!!!?" but I admit I don't have a bloody clue what I would be typing.
The offer is there though - beer and gibberish posts included!
FD
Posted by Bones McCoy (Member # 1480) on :
Wow. You guys are really passionate about this stuff. Respect.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Relax, Fawny, we grow on you. It's good to see the Brit quotient creeping up, BTW. Why, I do believe I saw a chap from Wales post the other day! I can almost see the place from my bedroom, if I had a window pointing that way! 8)
Ace, meanwhile, is a twat. You can tell this because when arguing he takes the first line of defence a fuckwit always takes. "Show me an EXACT example!!" he bleats. Well, I hardly think someone who's been a member here for more than four years yet has barely been able to manage about. . . two posts a week? Not even that! . . . can really complain about the standard of Flare badinage. In fact, prior to about a month ago he'd barely posted at all for six months. I'd say he's trolling. I think we all agree I'm pretty well-qualified to spot someone who's using this place to work off their frustrations! Whatsamatter, Acehole? Not getting any?
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
You're both being asses. Please stop. Newbies should post content that hasn't been done to death, and might conceivably be interesting to someone else. So should everyone else. Doesn't mean we should beat them about the head and neck when they fail to do so. But there's also nothing that says we can't poke fun at them, though hopefully while explaining the error of their ways.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Y'know, a decline in traffic here doesn't mean the place is dying. It just means we've cut out the crap.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
[Nevermind]
Sigh, this quickly got out of hand. I was just tired of seeing the snobby response yet again, but I think that original comment was actually much less disruptive than what has since followed. I am glad that at least a few of you agree somewhat with the main issue that irks me, and perhaps that means things will change. It doesn't look like this particular discussion is going anywhere further with the type of comments that have been made so far (and I'm sad to see them made by people whose works/sites and thoughts I have and still admire), so I will take Omega's suggestion and stop.
And regarding Flare's "dying" state, I simply was referring to the upper Trek fora and not the community forums below, which I know are still going strong because of the tight group that does reside here.
[ January 19, 2005, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Ace ]
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Ace, grow thicker skin: we're all a bit sharp-tounged here, but Flare is also where the most insightful ideas are shared about Trek, new designs, artwork, politics and, of course verbal puns (I rather liked "Acehole"). No need to cry about it.
quote:You know, the harsh and insulting treatment of new members on these forums is starting to get old. Like it or not, Flare has been dying after the end of DS9, VOY, and the last of the TNG movies
That's so much bullshit, I dont know where to begin. Flare's posts have branched out so that it's not just about those series. Hardly "dying".
Fawn, Bones: welcome.
FawnDoo, I can undetstand being aprehensive about making your first posting here- there's a lot of unique charcaters and we bicker like extended family.
Do stick around though. Too often a new member digs up an old thread and vanishes (though we ususally still beat the topic to death some more anyway).
I've certainly grown tired of every new member dredging up some tired old thread (most far older than this). It would be nice if someoone would join in a thread that's currently active, but if you really have something to cntribute to an older thread... go ahead. That being said, you beg to be reduced to so much chum by calling yourself anything-"Doo".
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...(I rather liked 'Acehole')."
(cf. "Red Dwarf")
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: (I rather liked "Acehole").
Shut yo fan-hole Jason! Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Do stick around though. Too often a new member digs up an old thread and vanishes (though we ususally still beat the topic to death some more anyway).
That being said, you beg to be reduced to so much chum by calling yourself anything-"Doo".
Okay, after posting how this place can sometimes be a bit unfriendly I go and get a rather nice welcome like that! :-) Take that, FawnDoo! Many thanks, I will stick around and might even try to introduce some stuff to debate about.
As for the "doo" comments, bring 'em on. Years on the web with this name and you don't think I've heard them all by now? ;-)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
*looks at age of poster directly above*
*notes that person is less than a year old than myself*
*notes that person has a respected job like "teacher"*
*panics and dies*
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Web design teacher, no less.
What the hell have I done with my life?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
If you don't like Flare, you'll be better off at TrebBBS anyway. They have Okuda, Sternbach and a whole clique of ye olde fandom publishers. We have Tim. And some guy dressed up like Canary Worf.
Oh, and a new series should feature a crew made up entirely of naked women.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Ultra Magnus says random thing as well, don't forget.
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: Web design teacher, no less.
I dunno. Are you ahead of or behind Simon?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
?
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Erh, I would have to know where Simon is, first. I think. In relation to me. To answer that, I mean.
What was the question again?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'm not sure. I think I was working towards some sort of comment about Simon's enormous endowment, since we haven't had one for a while.
I'm also slightly scared by The Man's apparent ability to instantly teleport himself to any thread he is mentioned in within 5 minutes of the initial post, even if it's some god-forsaken hour of the morning.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
I did the last one, so it was your turn. Which you have now wasted. Fool.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
People always think that in past times things were better. I always said that Flare was dying, it should be put to sleep gently. But now I have come to understand that the place has evolved, that a lot of the questions you would expect to find debated here (and are still posited by occasional newbies) have long since been answered, or at least argued into the ground.
For me, Flare is as it is today. We've gone beyond the Rim. But there's still scope for new blood to bring in new ideas. All sorts of stuff gets discussed in the Tech Forum that I for one don't bother with. It's still a place where new ideas are welcomed - if you spell them correctly. 8)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: If you don't like Flare, you'll be better off at TrebBBS anyway. They have Okuda, Sternbach and a whole clique of ye olde fandom publishers.
And Major Barclow
Posted by FawnDoo (Member # 1421) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: *panics and dies*
Killing another member by inducing a panic attack...I do hope this doesn't lead to a general black-balling!
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
Well, it could become a new idea for our forum competitions...
And about Major Barclow: I think I really miss his comments.
Wait, what am I saying?
*hits himself on the head with a rubber mallet*
*puts on his best Michael Palin accent* Ah, that's better. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
So we all agree that there is less Trek talk than there used to be here, Tim is an arsehole, and that the next series should be a post Voyager series because Star Trek was about looking forward and not back.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
And *ahem* 120m.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
And - there... are... four... LIGHTS!
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"And Major Barclow"
See, there's another reason we're better. We had DARKSTAR. See, when we get a complete wacko, he's actually for real, not a fake.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
And I've just realized that I started both those sentences with "see". That's what imitating speech in text will get you.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I see your wacko and raise you: "Mountain Man"
Top that one, pallie.
Hmmm...does that "Akb..er something" still post here? He was not quite the screwball of MM but I recall him advocating nuclear ahinilation in Iraq once or twice.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Easy. Red Quacker. Game, set, and cold-hard match. B)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I dont think I was a Flarite when this "Red Quacker" posted here though...you have to play within the past two (can you believe it?!?) years that I've posted here.
Plenty of nuts to choose from withing that timeframe though.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
A search reveals that the Red Quacker incident occured way back in March '01. I had no idea it had been that long.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
HUh. I followed some ofthose "Red Quacker" threads a search called forth: seemed genuinely nuts.
I noticed a LOT of "ex members" in those threads. ...and a linked-in SPAM graphic that was still working since 2001!
...also, I've actually been a Flarite almost three years! You should all trow me a party on my anniversary. Liam always sends me candies on my anniversary, but they always smell like almonds and I'm alergic to almonds. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Yes, we'll be sure to trow you that party.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I will have no part in this madness.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Except, Quacker was presumably also a trained troll.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, I could be getting this confused with something else, but I thought Red Quacker was the same guy who did Major Barcalow...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
"did" him how exactly?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
UP TEH BUTT!!!1~
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
!!, not !!!~1. Thank you.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
No, no, no. "!!" is only appropriate for fake bad Japanese translations. Fake dumbass Internet speak has to have "!!@!one!~" and such.
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
After this interchange we can suggest a ST series with Red Dwarf dialogue.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by TSN: UP TEH BUTT!!!1~
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
Nevertheless, in my opinion, they should let Trek die. I think the whole thing needs to be put in suspended animation, play the episodes in sindication for another half generation, let the actors go to conventions and let that start the buzz again and in a decade come up with another concept that is new and fresh, not forced out.
:{)
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
The next series should be TOS:SE. They should compleatly restore the old film and then re do the effects shots with accurite models, keeping the basic look and feel, but without stock footage causing the ship to look different in different shots and making the effects more consistant.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Or, maybe, no no no no no no no.
"Remember how much you liked 'Miri'? Well, now you can watch it again, fully enhanced, with real clouds over not-quite-Earth, correct engine nacelles in every shot, and sexier legs on Yeoman Rand!"
[ February 01, 2005, 04:52 AM: Message edited by: PsyLiam ]
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Curzon Dax: Nevertheless, in my opinion, they should let Trek die. I think the whole thing needs to be put in suspended animation, play the episodes in sindication for another half generation, let the actors go to conventions and let that start the buzz again and in a decade come up with another concept that is new and fresh, not forced out.
:{)
That's what I said before Enterprise started - but I'm glad they didn't.
Posted by The Captain from M.I.K.E. (Member # 709) on :
I still don't understand that with all the talk of letting the TV series/movie franchise "lay fallow" to give some time for the franchise to recover from some of the things that have been done to it lately, why Paramount refuses to make any serious forays into any alternative medium: a TV mini-series, animation, etc.
Everyone seems to agree that the movies are tired and thats why profits and quality are down, but no one seems to recognize that as long as the films and TV might be halted, giving the "Black sheep" of the Trek family (novels, comics and games) the run of the game. Most of the producers seem to range from ambivalence to outright hostility towards the non-canon licensees.. hasn't anyone ever thought about using animation as a springboard for new concepts and viewership?
Trek producers spend a lot of time purposely discrediting the licensed works, saying that the structure of the TV stories doesnt have the expansiveness to utilize ideas and continuity made outside of Paramount, but if they brought the novel editors or some other licensees on board, they could use it as a vehicle to getting some media out there at much lower over-head than a live-action production, and would impress a lot of hard core fans of licensed Trek who are continuously slighted by Paramount Trek's ignorance and seeming hatred of what other companies do with it. Not to mention that animation is a decent way to get younger viewers.. today's 8-18 year olds are tomorrows 18-34 year olds, so they could have their prime demographic filled up within a decade.. (and its not like expecting an 18-34 year old to watch "Enterprise" is entirely complimentary to their intelligence anyway, so its not like it will take extensive "dumbing down" of concepts and stories currently being fielded)
but no one ever asks me...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
To sum up: a cartoon show?
I don't mean to be dismissive. I love me some cartoon shows. But I guess linking that notion to the various derivative works currently in existence trips me up. Like, without going too far down a (fruitless) road of aesthetic theorizing, I'll say that a key feature of tie-in works is that they are wholly constrained by an exterior set of storytelling priorities. Well, OK, so what? What story isn't told within limits that are exterior to the story itself? (The physical framing of the picture, for instance, in TV and film. The rules of a genre. Etc.) But in this case I think those limits are more specific in ways that tend to have adverse creative effects. Or, rather, can sort of. . . well, the more specific your story the smaller your pool of potentially enthusiastic audience members gets.
None of which really has much to do with your point, I don't think, which would seem to be "Why not cull good ideas from the looser frameworks available to extra-televisual sources?" I guess I'm sort of inexplicably skeptical about whether those frameworks are in fact looser, in the sense of what kinds of stories can be tossed around.
On the other hand, I think this describes almost exactly the relationship between Time Warner and its wholly owned subsidiary DC Comics, and the one Marvel would like to have with Hollywood in general, that is, as a content farm where ideas can be incubated before being transferred to a medium that actually, you know, matters. (Take that, comics!) [Marvel, of course, lacks a corporate sugardaddy, though I recall Sony making noises in the past.] [[And one problem with this business model is that, at least lately, while Marvel has had by far the most success at this sort of thing, it has failed to generate any new media icons since the 1970s. I mean, I think the new X-Men - which is to say Storm and Nightcrawler and Wolverine, or in other words the Clairemont Giant-Sized and beyond X-Men - are the most recent Marvel characters that anyone has ever heard of or would care to make an action movie about. Although it appears that Elektra first showed up in Daredevil in 1981, so maybe we should modify that to "that anyone would care to see in an action movie." Contrast this with DC who, not having to worry so much about profitability, have been able to expand into some markets otherwise unplumbed [[[Vertigo]]] yielding a few successs. [[[Sandman, for instance, or, more relevant to my point, though I guess there is a Death movie in the works, Hellblazer, though I doubt Constantine will be a success by most measures, but even a terrible movie will bring in way more cash than the comic probably ever has.]]]]]
Well, that got out of hand quickly.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I hereby ban Simon from using parentheses and/or brackets.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Inconceivable!
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
I do not think it means what you think it means.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Inconceivable!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I have no idea what :{) means.
quote:Originally posted by Curzon Dax: I do not think it means what you think it means.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Inconceivable!
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"() [] [[[[[]]][[[]]]]]"
Parse error.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
And thus I fear we see why my career as a big-shot writer will never compile.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: I have no idea what :{) means.
I thought it was a smiley face with a gay-porn actor moustache!?! Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Freddy Mercury is alive and well and living in cyberspace.
Posted by The Captain from M.I.K.E. (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: To sum up: a cartoon show?
I don't mean to be dismissive. I love me some cartoon shows. But I guess...
Well look at it like this: Star Wars has garnered what i perceive to be some success with their "Clone Wars" tie-in -- it was high-end animation, designed carefully to fit in with the milieu of a complicated movie franchise heavy on design elements. Lucas' minions had tried animation before, with "Droids" and "Ewoks," which was unsuccessful except as kiddy-fodder (the same applies to "Star Trek: The Animated Series" -- it was considered to be "dumbed down" for the kids market, and shunned [of course, i was a kid in the 80s so i was fine with both Wars and Trek animation]). But now, with "Clone Wars," I think they succeeded in making a solid addition to their franchise without sacrificing much of their product's attractiveness to make it appropo for all ages viewing -- and it has the added bonus of a few more kids who will now be clamoring to see what has been revealed to be a less G-rated project - Episode III -- and the added bonus of new toys that otherwise wouldnt have cranked out of the old merchandise machine, all for the cost of a few 10 minute shorts, well marketed.
There wasnt a lot of the usual "is this stuff canon" questions because the studio and the franchise were involved, and tried to incorporate small plot elements from the movie, while Star Trek tend to farm out their franchise for cheap knock-offs in novels, games and books -- essentially saying "Yes, its nice, but it doesnt have much to do with the next series/movie, because of continuity, you know" -- where if the studio simply exercised some forethought in the products these licensees were promoting, they could use it to promote themselves too rather than whining about the franchise really having no new direction -- essentially putting a film debacle or series pitch on the back burner while the franchise churned a little to gear up for the next big live-action idea.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I like the Clone Wars, and I have a fair number of friends who watch Star Wars (which I am sure is shocking news and all). The number of them that have seen the cartoon series ranks somewhere less than 2, despite it being well advertised and received.
And...
quote:Star Trek tend to farm out their franchise for cheap knock-offs in novels, games and books
Surely there's some blackery name calling from the pot there?
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
A Ron Jeremy mustache, thankyouverymuch.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR:
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: I have no idea what :{) means.
I thought it was a smiley face with a gay-porn actor moustache!?!
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
I like what Lucasfilm does to keep SW alive, though sometimes I OD on SW. To agree, to a certain point with a previous post, I think it would be cool if Paramount experimented/expanded to other forms and styles of Trek but I don't think that Paramount right now would be too keen on this 'cause of the lukewarm reception E has gotten. I liked Clone Wars as far as the plot though I thought the animation suxed.
:{) [QUOTE]Originally posted by PsyLiam: [QB] I like the Clone Wars, and I have a fair number of friends who watch Star Wars (which I am sure is shocking news and all). The number of them that have seen the cartoon series ranks somewhere less than 2, despite it being well advertised and received.
And...
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Since ENT has just been officially cancelled, this 'next series' concept thing suddenly is a lot closer.
My wild guess at this point in time is that any new series might begin as a spin-off Trek XI, whenever that movie is going to made. The very early rumours of alleged movie-concepts indicated that they were toying with the idea of new characters for that movie, so it could possibly be made into a high-profile springboard for Series VI.
Posted by TorgaDaxIV (Member # 617) on :
what is wrong with picking up where tng and ds9 left off? continue a show that is based in the 24th century with settings we are familiar with!!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That would certainly be a nice thing to see: mabye a new format though.
Consider- the Trek universe is gigantic. I think a fresh start could be made by producing 3-5 part stories from both various regions of Trek as well as various time periods.
They could even tie-in with each other to make one complete picture: a threat encountered in the TOS era may return years later or a starship's lineage could be followed.....kind of an anthology.
I think this idea is sound but the viewers are not there now. If you missed a part of the story, you'd be lost and ratings would suck.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by TorgaDaxIV: what is wrong with picking up where tng and ds9 left off? continue a show that is based in the 24th century with settings we are familiar with!!
Would a TNG or DS-9 spin-off be successful/accepted by the fans if a good portion of the original cast weren't back?
Could anyone accept a TNG pick-up without Picard? My understanding is that Patrick Stewart wants to give Picard a rest.
Can Paramount pay salaries for the rest of the TNG cast?
Personally, I thought they should have had Picard retire from Starfleet and serve as an ambassador. Meanwhile Riker assumes command of the Enterprise-E. Ah, but no one ever asks me.
Can Star Trek survive beyond it's original concept, that of a starship exploring the galaxy? Is a different format capable of drawing a large enough fan-base to be profitable?
Lots of people have wanted Klingon episodes or other such niche programs. While cool ideas, I don't think those niche ideas would appeal to a large enough target audience to pull in the numbers Paramount wants (or needs).
I wouldn't mind seeing a post TNG/DS-9 era setting. I wonder what's happening in the galaxy as it rebuilds following the Dominion War.
This is the same reason why I thought a Captain Sulu idea was interesting. Not for the Sulu part, but I wanted to know what was going on in the glaxy in the TOS movie era. Trying to fill in the blanks from comments made in TNG, DS-9 or VOY episodes about "the past " weren't enough for me.
Just some thoughts...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Worf in command of a starship might work- Michael Dorn could always use another series worth of royalty cheques each month.
...and no, I'm not suggesting they put him in command of the USS Typhon. That thing's hull is made from wet cardboard.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Maybe instead of a new premise for a show (space exploration, space station, lost in the DQ, RetroTrek...) energies should be spent exploring different writing styles for Star Trek.
A lot of the comments praising DS-9 center around the story-arc concept. This concept seems pretty unique to DS-9. There were a few TNG episodes that touched on each other and VOY had the basic premise of getting home, but DS-9 seemed to do the best job of developing story arcs.
But it doesn't compare to Babylon 5, IMO. B-5 really set the standard for having a strong concept idea from the start, then developing all your seasons so that they further the overall story.
Someone copied the new Battlestar Galactica's Bible pages that appeard on "The Lowdown." It explains their general idea as being:
quote:Our show is built�
1. Series Arcs 2. Multi-episode Arcs 3. Episode Arcs
Perhaps a new Trek should follow this concept. A single underlying theme for the whole series (more than space exploration. A little more than getting back home. Something along the lines of meeting the Founders, fighting a war, defeating the founders, etc... ) Key episodes will appear every season that will further the overall theme.
Other stories within stories can be told in multi-episode arcs, like DS-9s Circle story arc or ENT more recent Surak/Vulcan arc.
Roddenberry's original vision called for a regular episode format because he didn't want viewers to be lost if they missed a show. TOS can practically be shown in any order and the overall story still make sense.
But times have changed. B-5 and X-files have introduced America (Manga was doing it long before) to multi-arcs and one continuous story from beginning to end. If someone misses an episode they can log onto their favorite web site and catch up.
The Horatio Hornblower single person POV idea is another example of a new direction. Move away from the multi-character format since invariably some characters are developed more than others. Focus on one person through part of their Starfleet career.
After that's established, then the "setting" can fall into place.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If theres anything Trek does [b]not[/i] need to do, it's copy Battlestar Galactica.
They already tried the "lowest common denominator" approach (T'Pol rubbing down with goo each week) and the response was extremely negative.
Besides, those three "great ideas" from the (ha ha) BSG writing book were all done on Enterprise.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Enterprise didn't have a series long plot. It barely had a premise, much less a plan.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
I still think they wasted a good opportunity with that Dyson Sphere...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Halo in a ball.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Look, no matter the plot or characters - the series still has to have good, solid stories and wonderful characterisation. Enterprise was developing that - maybe 3 years too late - but it was.
There shouldn't be any 'cloning' - i.e. Voyager was an expensive rip-off of TNG and the Enterprise producers only wanted to 'rehash' TOS - i.e. having a "big three" - they also did this for the Next Gen movies - when there really wasn't ANY "Big Three" in TNG. - Gawd - I'd hate to see what they would have done in the "Big Three" vein if they had a DS9 movie! Sisko, Kira, Odo!?! Doesn't work.
Silly plot 'ploys' - i.e. we're stranded 70,000 light years from home - should be avoided - they were never adhered to.
Characters need to be developed from the get go to involve the viewers.
Stuff like this has fallen by the way-side or took 4 years to develop under the current 'rule' of Trek. Braga, frankly is a 'concept man' - look at all his scripts for TNG - mind-bending time-travel episodes.
Behr and now Cotto new what to do.
Oh, a new series with Ira Steven Behr, Robert Hewitt Wolfe, Ron D. Moore, Judith and Garfield Reeve-stevens and Many Cotto as writers/producers! That would rock! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Too bad Behr nad Coto did not get control of Voyager in...season two or so.
Could've been great: we'd have seen the Voyager crew pushed to the desperate levels of the Equinox's crew (no endless supply of parts, shuttles, torpedos, etc.).
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote: Oh, a new series with Ira Steven Behr, Robert Hewitt Wolfe, Ron D. Moore, Judith and Garfield Reeve-stevens and Many Cotto as writers/producers! That would rock!
Yes. My only complaint with the Reeve-Stevens is the same complaint I have with this season of ENT. A little bit of homage/explaining goes a long way, kinda like seasoning or spices. What I hated about their book "Federation" was that they attempted to explain and tie in TOO MUCH in one story/too short a period of time.
And some things don't need explaining. I mean, it 's a simple delta/triangle emblem, for crying out loud. There's no need to give it any major signifigance like a flow-chart for warp drive. Sheesh.
I'm not saying appeal to the lowest common denominator. I'm saying develop major and minor story arcs to support a series long theme. You can hate Galactica for all I care, but the fact remains that is what they are doing (and Galactica TOS did not). You'll note I also included X-files (a minor example) and B-5 (practically all of seasons 2-4).
Some people can't let their hate alone once in a while...
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"If theres anything Trek does [b]not[/i] need to do, it's copy Battlestar Galactica.
"They already tried the 'lowest common denominator' approach (T'Pol rubbing down with goo each week) and the response was extremely negative."
I'm confused by this apparent connection between "Battlestar Galactica" and "lowest common denominator" television. If you had said it about, say, post-Wolfean "Andromeda", it would make sense. But, much as you may not like BG for whatever reason, the idea that it was made to appeal to a "lowest common denominator" is obvious bullshit.
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
No time to read through all of the proposed shows, but maybe one of these will do. The second one has promiss.
Proposals Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Star Trek: Space Lesbians? Why not Star Trek: Prometheus?
Prologue: A Starfleet admiral is being transported to Earth after suffering a shuttlecraft accident that reverts him to his 20's while retaining his memories. He figures it's best to retire now while he has his youth again and enjoy life outside of Starfleet ship building. En route to Earth, the USS Liberator makes a detour to Wolf 359 to battle the Borg in order to stall time for Starfleet and the Enterprise-D. With the assembled Starfleet armada engaging the Borg and ships falling to the wayside, the admiral ends up having to take command when the Liberator's captain dies. In the ensuing battle, the admiral makes a difficult choice of retreating and abandoning ship. The Liberator is destroyed and a majority of the crew is saved... and the admiral looks out of the shuttle wondering maybe retiring isn't a good idea right now...
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
So in other words, a cross between the beginning of Emissary and the gimmick in Too Short a Season?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"If theres anything Trek does [b]not[/i] need to do, it's copy Battlestar Galactica.
"They already tried the 'lowest common denominator' approach (T'Pol rubbing down with goo each week) and the response was extremely negative."
I'm confused by this apparent connection between "Battlestar Galactica" and "lowest common denominator" television. If you had said it about, say, post-Wolfean "Andromeda", it would make sense. But, much as you may not like BG for whatever reason, the idea that it was made to appeal to a "lowest common denominator" is obvious bullshit.
Glowing spines during sex scenes, the goofy breast cancer subplot, an alien culture using exact current military terms, the un-needed baby-killing scene....that's what I consider "low". I'm only speaking of the miniseries here as I still cant record the BSG series (I work when it's on).
If Enterprise started out with any of that nonsense, there would have been some real fan-backlash.
Mabye I'll find the series fantastic (it's possible).
NOt that I wanted to derail this thread into a debate over BSG.
Y'know...the new DS9 books follow a nice format. The current stories involve characters on their respective homeworlds in seperate stories that sorta intertwine because the starring characters all (eventually) interact with each other on DS9.
It's not too far off from the "anthology" idea.
Mike, that idea really reeks.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"Glowing spines during sex scenes..."
Actually, I missed that part; I only heard about it the other day. But, really, glowing spines appeal to dumb people? The sex scene in general, sure. But luminous body parts... probably not so much.
"...the goofy breast cancer subplot..."
"Goofy"?
"...an alien culture using exact current military terms..."
If you're going to complain about that, aren't you pretty much required to complain about the fact that they're speaking English in the first place?
"...the un-needed baby-killing scene..."
Actually, I must have missed that, too.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
TSN: Did you watch the original broadcast or the recent rebroadcast on NBC (maybe)? I think a few things got cut out in that one.
Jason: "un-needed baby killing scene"
Yeah, I don't get that. Nuking billions of people from orbit == ok? Killing one baby in an experiment, now thats an outrage?
The glowing spines thing was odd, but I just chalked it up to the general TPTB interference that writers and producers have to put up with. As with the childish elements in Andromeda, Seven in Voyager, or Keffler in B5 ... it all depends on how you handle it. Andromeda and Voyager completely dropped the ball, B5 dodged the bullet by completely destroying Keffler, and I think BSG is doing a good job with Number 6 by putting her into a pretty interesting love/hate relationship with Baltar.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I saw the NBC broadcast, and I missed the first fifteen or twenty minutes of it.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
More like the beginning of Emissary with Rascals thrown in the middle of a battle. It would give reason in using a younger actor... sex appeal, the Borg, explosions... all that in the opening sequence.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: As with the childish elements in Andromeda, Seven in Voyager, or Keffler in B5 ... it all depends on how you handle it. Andromeda and Voyager completely dropped the ball...
Not to derail the topic, but wasn't Seven one of the few things that Voyager actually did well?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Seven and the Doctor... and do you know why!?!?!?!?! In season 1 Braga and Berman said in an interview that they were NOT allowing any 'backstories' for the characters that dealt with the alpha quadrant. This basically cut the characters legs out from underthem. The Doctor and Seven of Nine worked... because their "Lives" pretty much BEGAN on Voyager.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"Glowing spines during sex scenes..."
Hey! They stole that from Season 1 Angel - that episode with the hot Asian woman from another dimension who was trying to bring women from the other dimension to ours to escape the tyranny against women there.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: and do you know why!?!?!?!?!
Did you actually, physically explode there?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: In season 1 Braga and Berman said in an interview that they were NOT allowing any 'backstories' for the characters that dealt with the alpha quadrant.
And in a display of just how dumb this idea was, they started breaking that rule almost immediately. Janeway had her fiance. Chakotay had his spiritual roots (which quickly disappeared). B'Lanna had her Maquis ties, as did Seska, who turned out to be an agent of an Alpha Quadrant race...
Most of the coolest ideas they had, but never really explored, came from stuff like Alpha Quadrant lives. "The Voyager Conspiracy" was a stupid episode, but a great idea, had it been carried through. Look at what "Lost" is doing. They had the running traitor on board plot line going for awhile too, which I thought was good, but vasty underused.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I do wonder how B5 would have done the running traitor thing if they hadn't recast after the pilot. Would whatserface have been a willing traitor (like Garibaldi's aide was), or would it have been a telepath reprogramming thing (like, er, Garibaldi)? And would she have been sneaky in every episode, or just the occasional one?
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Midwinter to the copy-pasteque:
quote:
# Mike: your assessment is pretty much correct. Laurel [Takashima] was to be the traitor initially; as I noted long, long time ago, and you quoted, she was not, in fact, acting entirely under her own volition. There would indeed have been an implanted personality there, acting without even her knowing about it. And it would've been this implanted personality that would've shot Garibaldi.
When I took Laurel off the board, elements of this were transferred to other characters. This is the kind of thing I mean when I say that even with changes here and there, the story continues to go where I want it to go. We don't necessarily remember *which* general put the briefcase with a bomb next to Hitler's chair in the bunker, only that it got done. Some chairs are moveable, some are not, as anyone who's ever written a novel from an outline can tell you...you start moving the chairs around, but you always keep going where you're going.
# Yeah, originally it was the Kosh-scan that would've gotten Lyta in trouble; the TK aspect was originally going to come in from another angle, but I was able to collapse the two in Talia, and then bring Lyta in from a different direction, as you'll see in one of the first batch of new year 3 eps.
# If Laurel *had* stayed with the show, by the middle of year two the fact that she was Control would've been revealed via the password incident. At that point, one particular possibility was that her second in command under her -- a rather dour Russian lieutenant named Ivanova -- would've been promoted to take her place, while Laurel was moved off the chessboard. (This was planned because we knew going in that Tamlyn Tomita had a growing film career, and we probably could've only kept her for a couple of years in the best of circumstances. So why not turn that to your advantage?)
The position now being occupied by Corwin, Ivanova's second, is the position that Ivanova would've held (though more prominently) if Laurel had stayed on. (And no, Corwin doesn't now have that arc lurking in the background.)
See, it's easy to stick to an outline and never diverge if you're writing characters in a novel; in a TV show, with live actors, you have to be flexible, plan ahead, come up with contingency plans, and have threads that weave and interlock in ways to leave you maximum flexibility while still proceeding toward your destination.
# Takashima would have been the one to be Control. A Psi Corps plant. (Her background on Mars would've been the perfect time for it to have happened.) When Laurel went away, I took that one thread and passed it along to Talia, setting it up as early as the very first episode, when Talia and Ivanova first meet, and later reluctantly have a drink.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
See! Now there is an example of what I'm talking about. A long-range plan. Stories that will keep viewers tuning in week after week wonder what will happen next.
Not episodic stories that are entirely told in an hour.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Not to derail the topic, but wasn't Seven one of the few things that Voyager actually did well?
Well, only relatively to the rest of the show. I guess the point I was trying to make was that at one point in the show, TPTB said something like "The show needs better ratings. You should throw in a sexy character." Then someone else went "Oooh, wouldn't it be cool if she was a Borg?"
Then they did and they kept her in a catsuit for that reason and instead of trying to integrate "being sexy" as a trait essential for the plot, they just left it there. So the hook becomes she's a Borg (which should have name recognition to the casual ST fan) and completely separately she's sexy (which brings in the people who wouldn't care about the first).
So in this train of thought, if TBTP force you to introduce a random character (e.g. Keffler, the top-gun-esque character or Number 6) the least you can do is try to incorporate it in a way necessary to the plot.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Maybe people went mad for a bit, but "Emissary" + "Rascals"? As a series? Isn't that a bit like doing a show about, I don't know, the circus, only instead of circus performers all your main characters are big steaming piles of partially digested meat, and instead of a circus it takes place in the darkest depths of hell, with a soundtrack recorded in a surgical suite that's running low on anaesthesia?
I mean, I guess I can imagine a worse show, if maybe the actors came by your house every week and spit blood down your throat.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: I mean, I guess I can imagine a worse show, if maybe the actors came by your house every week and spit blood down your throat.
Oh, a Klingon comedy.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I would rather see Enterprise come back after a few years (if possible) rather than introduce us to a new crapshoot of characters.
Riker\/Titan seem to be the next best offshoot series, if any. Have some sort of mixed cast from whoever is left over and available from TNG, DS9 and VOY. The big question would be what the premise of the series would be about -- that is, of course, the problem regardless of the who or when....
Or even, to pacify those interested in post TOS...resurrect the Enterrpise-B for a series, thats a big hole to fill. For that matter, ressurect the Enterprise-C for a series. Afterall, the finale is already written. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
TV Shows don't have to have an OVERALL arc - like B5. TNG didn't Didn't do THAT show any harm. The Key is being faithful to the characters and developing (story ideas will flow from there - look at DS9), throwing tid-bits of information in here and there, and coming back to various story lines that work.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Sol, I said that it would be the opening sequence of the series... not the entire premise. It is designed to introduce a younger lead actor as the main star of the series. You can't exactly have an actor like Chris Carmack command a Federation starship like the Prometheus without somewhat of a plausible (if not via a previous plot device) explaination.
I imagined the admiral having to deal with being 121 years old and be physically in his 20's again. How will you be taken seriously by other Starfleet officers? How would your friends adjust to your second chance at youth? Can a crew take an admiral who looks like an A&F model seriously under stress? How would you deal with the fact that one minute you planned on going to Risa to retire and the next minute you now have a chance to do what you didn't get a chance to do the first time in your career?
As for the Prometheus backdrop, the admiral designed the Prometheus after surviving Wolf 359.. . And all of the Prometheus' external registry was changed by the shipyard staff as an inside joke to the admiral's previous command... at least that's how I would explain the 59650/74913 fiasco.
I have a general idea on how the pilot episode sets up the entire series... unfortunately there's no way in hell TPTB will accept some of the concepts in the series like having the admiral gay or a CGI character like M'Rex or even having a ship designed for war and having an entire command crew try to figure out what to do with it during peace time and how to try to go back to space exploration or normal life even after the Dominion War.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
It isn't the age reduction thing that I'm reacting to, though in this context I have to admit I think it's pretty goofy; just the "Rascals" reference. It's like. . . well, I have used up my store of over the top similes, but it is like saying "Hey, I'd like to do something that's a lot like this other thing that happens to be the worst thing that's ever happened."
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge: As for the Prometheus backdrop, the admiral designed the Prometheus after surviving Wolf 359.. . And all of the Prometheus' external registry was changed by the shipyard staff as an inside joke to the admiral's previous command... at least that's how I would explain the 59650/74913 fiasco.
1/ This is why fans shouldn't write Trek shows. Explaining the Prometheus' registry shouldn't even enter the head of someone trying to come up with a concept for a new Trek series.
2/ Slightly overstated use of the word "fiasco", isn't it?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: TV Shows don't have to have an OVERALL arc - like B5. TNG didn't Didn't do THAT show any harm. The Key is being faithful to the characters and developing (story ideas will flow from there - look at DS9), throwing tid-bits of information in here and there, and coming back to various story lines that work.
No, they don't. But what TPTB have done the last 4 years hasn't worked. Counting VOY, many would say it's not worked for the last 11 years. Why not try something different?
All the positives I've heard about the DS-9 era have centered around the story arc concept. If that's the case, then why not take what works and use it.
TNG didn't have arcs. TNG is also nearly 20 years old. Fans of Trek now weren't born or were just babies when TNG premiered.
Times change. Story telling needs to change as well
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I don't think that the story arc concept is the only "positive" that DS9 had. Strong characters, well written stories, and "OMG BIG SPACE BATTLES" all helped. And to be honest, I think calling DS9 an "arc driven show" is fairly inaccurate. They were pretty much just making things up as they went along, and the majority of the episodes were fairly standalone.
And in any case, I don't recall DS9 setting the world alight in the ratings, so saying that it "worked" is also possibly being a bit generous.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
My Namesake, Grand Admiral Thrawn, was a character in a series of Star Wars novels who was a master strategist leading the Empire in a last act of resistance against the New Republic. I believe this concept could be addapted to trek, set in the early 25th century and the Federation has finally succumb to the Dominion after Odo turned bad following the murder of his beloved major Kira. The Remnants of Starfleet are wandering the outer Rim desperately trying to survive, when a messiah arrives, one of the Federations finest Fleet Admirals, A Vulcan who has embraced emotion and has been on a long journey of self dicovery in the far reaches of the galaxy. He must unite what is left of the Alpha Quadrent forces, and aided by a 'deepthroat' the last section 31 operative alive in the collaborating federation council, must plot the destruction of the Dominion War machine.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Jesus Christ that's bad.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
You are J. Michael Straczynski and I claim my $5.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
M'kay....
The real catch is what people's definition of "works" is for a series.
To us fans, it's all about story and characters (and cool ship stuff as well), but to the producers, it's all about ratings.
That's why we see that famous Borg practicality employed as a skintight utfit and high heels.
I think for a new series to get the chance to work, they should focus on the syndication market and on good stories- dont limit the show to UPN. Enterprise being stuck on this shit network is a major hurdle that it never got over. Even a lot of diehard Trek fams had to dowload weekly episodes because the show was not available in their area or it was shown sporadically at best.
Storywise, I was impressed with these last two seasons of Enterprise. Even season two had some really good episodes.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Be sure to use terms like Outer Rim in the story too, because noone will pick up on the connection to Star Wars.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: Be sure to use terms like Outer Rim in the story too, because noone will pick up on the connection to Star Wars.
Outer Rim - is that a sex thang? Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
The term outer rim is used in 'Conspiracy' when Walker Keel asks if Picard has noticed anything strange about Starfleet recently he replies 'no, but we've been on the outer rim for a while we haven't had much contact with them'
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yep. And and sounded like they pulled a line from Star Wars.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
So what the Grand Admiral is proposing is a series idea that rips off a Star Wars novel that rips off Battlestar Galactica? Yeah, that'll be a sure fire hit.
First, we already know that Odo would not go psycho on the death of Kira. Watch "The Children of Time", and you see that over the years since Kira's demise Odo has turned into a relaxed, almost grandfatherly figure. Sure, he later sacrificed the colony in altering history to make sure that Kira lived, but that's a different effect that Odo turning into a monster consumed by bloodlust. It's out of character. And, speaking of out of character...
Second, no way in hell would an emotional Vulcan be a hit with fans. Just during Enterprise, there was a ton of fan critism against Soval, T'Pol, and others for supposedly playing Vulcans that were too emotional. Fans like the stoic, logical Vulcans like Tuvok or the hybrids that struggle to maintain an inner balance like Spock. Featuring a Vulcan that's given up on his culture, unless the writers can come up with a damned good excuse, is not going to be well-received.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I watched the Vulcan three parter of Enterprise for the first time last weekend and was blown away that most of the high counsel didn't even try to pretend they were being logical. The guy in charge (Admiral Leyton) kept punching consoles and barking orders... and the second in command who eventually took over about pissed himself on a couple of occasions. Soval actually looked restrained for once.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: Second, no way in hell would an emotional Vulcan be a hit with fans. Just during Enterprise, there was a ton of fan critism against Soval, T'Pol, and others for supposedly playing Vulcans that were too emotional. Fans like the stoic, logical Vulcans like Tuvok or the hybrids that struggle to maintain an inner balance like Spock. Featuring a Vulcan that's given up on his culture, unless the writers can come up with a damned good excuse, is not going to be well-received.
That would be the bust known as Star Trek V.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
There is soom room for debate about the whole Odo/Vulcan thing I freely admit, but I'd like to see a series where the Federation somehow has to be rebuilt against overwhelming odds against a force like the Dominion, and where old hatreds and rivalries have to be put aside. It would in no way borrow from Galactica, these wouldn't be civilians, they would be whats left of the Romulan/Klingon/Federation fleets without the neccesary resources or leadership to stage a counter-strike.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So....Andromeda.
Mabye they can get some musclehead to be the captain and a hot holographic computer and...
Naaaa.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
I'm ashamed to say that Andromeda sunk its fangs into me solely because of Lexa Doig. But that will never happen again. Fool me once and shame on you; fool me twice and shame on... someone... for fooling me... into something. Again. Something like that.
Also, let's be realistic. The galaxy already has two big bad guys: the Dominion and the Borg. How many more "threatening to overwhelm the Federation" races can there possibly be? Especially taking into account the vast territory of the both of them? I don't think the galaxy could support it, plus the idea of a vastly superior species hellbent on conquering the Federation has been done to death now (with both races being soundly defeated and now without their menacing aura).
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Thus, the evil enemy must come from outside the galaxy. Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Good catch, my good captain. We haven't heard from the Kelvans in a while.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Oh, outside the galaxy, that's your answer for everything. Where did these space potatoes with a thing for Halloween come from? Outside the galaxy. How about this enormous amoeba, or these flying telepathic fried eggs, or this crazy old man and his banjo? I say everything outside the galaxy can just stay put, because it is clearly a freak convention out there.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
According to Peter David's TNG novel Vendetta, a second, uglier, older brother to the planet killer in the TOS episode "The Doomsday Machine" came from... OUTSIDE THE GALAXY!
dun dun duuuuuuuuuuuun...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Except fot the description of the Borg and the PK itself, Vendetta sucked horribly.
Two excepsior class ships can forcibly drag a Borg Cube with tractor beams?
Starfleet allows a captain so obsessed with showing-up Picard that he fires on the Enterprise?
Then, Peter David has that character (in another book) in command of an Ambassador class ship?!?
Man, that book has serious fanboy-issues. I did like it a lot when I was in Jr High though.
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: Good catch, my good captain. We haven't heard from the Kelvans in a while.
Fuck the Kelvans.
I want to see the Hurq (as depicted in ST:Invasion).
They could set the eries around the Hurq returning and wiping out the Klingon Empire...could be some fun there (particularly for the Romulans!).
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
You forgot that it also included Commander Shelby and Doctor Pulaski. Fanboy issues, indeed.
Posted by Grand Admiral Thrawn (Member # 1490) on :
The Debrune would be a good candidate race to return to Trek, an offshoot of the Romulans that dissapeared.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
I don't want t meet the fanboy who has a thing for Dr. Pulaski.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
Man, that book has serious fanboy-issues. I did like it a lot when I was in Jr High though.
That was what....2 years ago?
Posted by Grand Master General Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHAAAAHAHA!!!!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Nooo..I'm a tad older than that Whizartist.
But you made GMGFG (sounds like someone with a bone in stuck their throat) laugh so I forgive your jibe.
Posted by Grand Master General Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
(prelude to crap)
Posted by Grand Master General Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Actually, I thought it was prett lame. But since I feel sorry for the retarded people in this world, I thought I'd help the little guy out and laugh at his little "funny".
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
I thought it was kinda funny. But then I didn't think Thrawn's idea was all bad either.
W/r/t touchy-feely Vulans. Do you know what's way more interesting than aliens acting human? Aliens acting alien.
I think the Trek universe needs to lay fallow for a little while before we start pitching up our re-start ideas. A lot has happened in 20 years of programming. We need to not think about that for a little while. Maybe.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
So I'm tempted to start a thread like "What sorts of Star Trek things would you like to see inbetween series, or, perhaps, in lieu of one." Like, I would like to buy a big thick coffee table book of Okudagrams.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, it's pissing in the wind, but I's still like to see that Unseen Frontier book get made.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Please! Piss away! I'd love to see it as well. Anyone seen Mojo around recently?
B.J.
Posted by Grand Master General Futurama God (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Well, it's pissing in the wind, but I's still like to see that Unseen Frontier book get made.
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: Please! Piss away! I'd love to see it as well. Anyone seen Mojo around recently?
B.J.
I would be much more interested to watch if it were a woman attempting your so-called "wind pissing".
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: So I'm tempted to start a thread like "What sorts of Star Trek things would you like to see inbetween series, or, perhaps, in lieu of one." Like, I would like to buy a big thick coffee table book of Okudagrams.
Otherwise I'm with Sol-Man on the Okudagram book.
Might even find me a place for it the "library" I keep in the lavatory.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Books in the lavatory? Intrests in female urination voyeurism?
Somewhere there's a website just waiting for you, pallie.
Posted by Grand Master General Futurama God (Member # 968) on :
Voyeurism.
The pique of my interest is not so much watching the act, in as much as the attempt of the performance, being that they are ill equipped for such feats. In which case, we might as well watch a man breast feed a baby.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So you just like watching people fail at impossible tasks...intresting.
Very intresting. Tell me about your mother....
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Grand Master General Futurama God: Voyeurism.
The pique of my interest is not so much watching the act, in as much as the attempt of the performance, being that they are ill equipped for such feats. In which case, we might as well watch a man breast feed a baby.
My dreams are far too strange as it is.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The first one is quite funny! The second was an easy google. Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
I still think that the next series should be and anthology series with the same actors playing different races or character week in week out. Though I think it would be nifty if they would take this idea and bring some of the books to the screen.
:{)
quote:Originally posted by Grand Master General Futurama God:
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Well, it's pissing in the wind, but I's still like to see that Unseen Frontier book get made.
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: Please! Piss away! I'd love to see it as well. Anyone seen Mojo around recently?
B.J.
I would be much more interested to watch if it were a woman attempting your so-called "wind pissing".
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: So I'm tempted to start a thread like "What sorts of Star Trek things would you like to see inbetween series, or, perhaps, in lieu of one." Like, I would like to buy a big thick coffee table book of Okudagrams.
Otherwise I'm with Sol-Man on the Okudagram book.
Might even find me a place for it the "library" I keep in the lavatory.
Posted by Grand Master General Futurama God (Member # 968) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: So you just like watching people fail at impossible tasks...intresting.
Very intresting. Tell me about your mother....
Yes, I thrive on the failure of others. I also thrive on irony, mnt dew and nacho cheese combos. Is that so wrong?
As for my mother, for all I know she is sleeping with one of you tonight.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Not me: I gotta work sometime y'know.
Mountain Dew is gross: the worst of all disgusting sodas.
Posted by Grand Master General Futurama God (Member # 968) on :
Blasphemy!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Okay: Check soda from Winn-Dixie is actually far worse.
I stopped drinking all soda (years ago) after I bought some Check (cheap Coke) and poured it into awhite plastic cup.
It left a brown ring in the cup.
Posted by Grand Master General Futurama God (Member # 968) on :
That happens to my toilet...often.
I like to alternate between mnt dew and faygo moon mist. The acid content of all that shit (dew, cola, etc) is horrible, (ahh, the things I do in the lab to waste time) but dammit, its sooooooooo good! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Faygo Redpop and Vodka are very good together, as I recall.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Forget nationalized healthcare...give me nationalized Pepsi dispersments. Like those single-serving two liter bottles. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I just needs to have iced tead mainlined into my veins to be happy and productive. Mabye I can modify one of those isnulin pumps...
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
Perhaps my Acronym under this TOPIC should be revisited.
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