I've been trying to find this publication for quite some time now, but it seems I'm having bad luck. Is it really so rare that it never shows up on eBay?
New Eye and Intergalactic also don't list it in their catalogues, and even the various SF book-sites give only sparse information.
I may be mistaken, but (according to the Starship Schematics Database) the Charts are the source of a number of SotSF-related ships, like the Monoceros and Nordenskj�ld.
I also know a number of people around here have it.
So.. how the hell do I get my hands on the Charts? Does it have an ISBN number I can look up? Or is someone willing to sell ?
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
I thought I had heard that the artist known as Aridas Sofia, who worked on it, still had some copies about. I could ask him for you, if you'd like.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Any chance of a good scan of it?
I'd love one for refrence.
Posted by The Captain from M.I.K.E. (Member # 709) on :
i eBayed mine..A++++++ BEST BUY EVAR!!!!1!!2
Posted by Masao (Member # 232) on :
This the same picture that Steve Pugh posted last year. I've haven't seen a bigger pic. Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Thanks to a number of mails and PMs, I've just bought a copy from Starland. It's listed under Star Trek -> Posters.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
What in hell is that stem thing in the top left corner? Looks like a stove-pipe hat.
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
USS Lincoln? Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I swear to god I refrained from making that joke!
...too easy, Boh. Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
At least I refrained from making a 3d mock-up
On a related note, it ALMOST KINDA looks like it says Abraham class above it
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
It actually says ARIADNE Class.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Um...what in hell is it though?!?
Hey: guess what I just got from a friend that's moving away? Jackhill's Fleet Refrence Manuals Vol-1-3 and "Starfleet Prototype" and "Ships of the Star Fleet vol. One Revised".
I've never seen these before and they're in pristine condition! Man, these are cool...I never knew my pal even had these and he assumed I already had them snad almost threw them away!
Anyone need scans?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: What in hell is that stem thing in the top left corner? Looks like a stove-pipe hat.
All things are cyclical - about a year ago we had a dicussion about this VERY object and went through ALL the objects (just about) on this chart.
We sussed out (actually I did) that if you combine the first three ships - it makes the SS Enterprise.
So the 'Ariadne' is actually just the silloutte of the ring section - but cause you don't see any detail - they just used it to make a new starship.
Silly, I know.
Search for this topic.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Found this in my flare-upload file:
It's a rough combo of the first three ships on that chart.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Dun-dun-duuuun!
As for Jackill's volume 3 - all of it. I have the first two and treasure 'em... But most importantly, I'm curious as to the other Excelsimbassador bashes were in the third book.
Mark
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
Row 2 second to the right side looks like a TOS-Akiraprise.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: Dun-dun-duuuun!
As for Jackill's volume 3 - all of it. I have the first two and treasure 'em... But most importantly, I'm curious as to the other Excelsimbassador bashes were in the third book.
Mark
Mostly there are cool new shuttle designs (and a fighter I dont care for at all), many kitbashes on the Excelsior, a cool scout called the Loki class, an TMP era update on the unmanned Cargo Drone and several transports- including a cutaway of the Sydney class! A bueatiful starliner is in there -as well as some cool duterium tankers I've never seen before.
Sad to say, there's nothing Ambassador related in there.
I'll see about scanning it at work and sending you a PDF, if you like. Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Me too! Actually, I wouldn't mind them all being scanned.... Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Found this in my flare-upload file:
It's a rough combo of the first three ships on that chart.
Well, that combination could be an Enterprise Starliner Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
yes that's the point - I think they just chopped up the S.S. Enterprise (your 'Enterprise Starliner') and made three ships.
Actually that would be something cool to have in the next Ships of the Line calendar - the S.S. Enterprise!
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I'll see about scanning it at work and sending you a PDF, if you like.
Hey, don't leave the rest of us out of that! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's a PDF so it's no ssweat to sent to whoever wants it.
Handplacing all those pages is a chore so it may be a while to scan everything. I may just do the ships and skip some of the extranous text descriptions.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
THey're showing Descent Pt.II now. Jesus, could this be a worse episode?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Hey... at least Brent Spiner gets to feel up Marina Sirtis...
(wait for it... it's when he takes her communicator off in the jail cell...)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I was not really watching it- it droned on in the background while I started converting an NX-01 to the Intrepid.
Lore's Batman suit was cool though: they should have just had Lore disintigrate Data, get away and become the TNG villian they so badly needed in the last two seasons.
Sela (with her Moe hair) sure never came through on that end.
Think how much better Nemesis would have been if "B4" turned out to be a backup copy of Lore! Fuck- Spiner is SOOOOOOO much better playing a psychopath. Posted by Marauth (Member # 1320) on :
Could I get a copy of that .pdf when you finish scanning it?
I think the whole Sela plotline was completely wasted, she could have been a convincing villain had they written more stuff for the Romulans but the basin cut was hideous, why must the Romulans be shafted with the Vulcans' old terrible hair styles? They should have kept some of the TOS elements of the Romulans in beyond just the name and the pointy ears.
Re: Spiner and Lore, now that would have been fun, what happened to Lore after that ep.? Did he just get scrapped? Sent to SFC for research? Cannibalised for parts incase Data got injured?
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: yes that's the point - I think they just chopped up the S.S. Enterprise (your 'Enterprise Starliner') and made three ships.
Actually that would be something cool to have in the next Ships of the Line calendar - the S.S. Enterprise!
Agreed. But, irrespective of what the Encyclopedia says, it isn't the S.S. Enterprise, it's the U.S.S. Enterprise. How this works out, you'll have to figure for yourself, but that's what's on the original painting from TMP and it's also how it was designated in the old Spaceflight Chronology. Why the Okudas put it as "S.S." is a mystery.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye it was built nad launched as a commercial venture before there was a "united" space service?
Possibly even some anti-vulcan private exploration venture within the solar system or a last gasp of commercialism in Trek's (somewhat) moneyless econemy...
Could be lotsa reasons.
As to scans: I'll start them tomorrow and break up the books into three volumes.
Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim:
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: yes that's the point - I think they just chopped up the S.S. Enterprise (your 'Enterprise Starliner') and made three ships.
Actually that would be something cool to have in the next Ships of the Line calendar - the S.S. Enterprise!
Agreed. But, irrespective of what the Encyclopedia says, it isn't the S.S. Enterprise, it's the U.S.S. Enterprise. How this works out, you'll have to figure for yourself, but that's what's on the original painting from TMP and it's also how it was designated in the old Spaceflight Chronology. Why the Okudas put it as "S.S." is a mystery.
Because you gave the answer in your own post, because they are the Okudas
Regarding the pdf, may I have it too?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'll give a shout once it's all scanned and everyone can hit me up fot it then.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
OKAY! I got all three Jackill's volumes nicely scanned and all I needs is (preferably) someone to host them so everyone can download the PDF's off a site, or (slower) everyone's e-mail addresses that wants them.
I've already fired off the files to Starship Freak but have not been able to verify their reciept yet.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Why not use flare upload? Or does that not work with PDFs?
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I'll host them, just you know, don't kill my bandwidth Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Okay, Boh- PM me with your addy ad I'll send ya the files. Thanks!
As to Flareupload, the files take forever to send so I'm dubious as to uploading them dirtectly.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
How big are the files?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Too big: 25, 25.7 and 27 megs respectivly. I'll split the files into thirds and send then taht way (my outbox's maximum celing is 10 megs).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I split the files and am sending them now....I'll post in with download availability.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Shit: at 8 megs, they're still too large for my comcast mailbox to send!
I'll just send CD's to a couple of people that want to host the files for everyone to download...
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
Sorry for not responding sooner, I've been away from the computer. I could set up space for you to upload the files directly to my webspace if you'd like.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
You might want to collect mailing addresses for those who even with 8-10 megs is still too large and long a download (with dial-up access). It may be easier just to burn copies onto disc and send them through the mail.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That's probably what I'll end up doing but I'd trather just send two or three people (Capt Boh for one) a CD and allow everyone to download from them if possible.
Posted by Kobi (Member # 1360) on :
Well, I have a homepage with unlimited traffic (at least that was what the offer said) I could also create a sub-ftp account for you, to upload it directly. Contact me via pm if you like.
Posted by Intruder1701 (Member # 880) on :
Jason can you send those to me too?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
yah... in time.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Interesting story..
I ordered the chart on Starland.com. They would reply to me with final shipping costs...
But they never mailed me. I asked them what was going on, and didn't get a reply. A week later, I gave them a deadline (this Monday). They still did not reply to anything, so earlier today I filed a complaint with PayPal...
And guess who mailed me today... Starland.com acts like nothing is wrong (although they do admit to a delay), and say my order will be out within two days. Without a word on extra shipping costs, though.
I was going to warn people against buying from Starland.com, but I'll wait until I have the charts in my hands.
Posted by aridas (Member # 1051) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: yes that's the point - I think they just chopped up the S.S. Enterprise (your 'Enterprise Starliner') and made three ships.
No. Those are three different ships, seen in profile. They have nothing but a coincidental resemblence to the parts of that starliner, and just when seen from the only views given - the profiles.
The one you are using for the starliner's neck is the Frobisher class, and when seen from the top looks a little like a large version of the Vulcan shuttle, with a rectangular command hull between two long nacelles. The one you are using for the starliner "head" is the Leonardo class, a smallish catamaran design, with short nacelles attached to a "deck" a'la the Grissom, but with a much smaller "deck" -- just two decks and a bridge module, and a complicated impulse assembly at the stern. Finally, the ship that started the speculation, the Ariadne, is a very different animal indeed. What you are seeing is the side view of a ship that when seen from the front has a long, verrrry narrow look. From the front it looks a little like the Frobisher does from the side.
That "stovepipe" is actually a pair of nacelles that are all front and almost nothing else. The "coils" are arranged vertically instead of horizontally, and the huge "maw-like" front is to maximize this ship's warp speed in areas of space with high matter densities, like nebulae. Its design was developed to fit with Geoff Mandel's explanation (in his first Star Trek Maps) of the effect of matter density on warp speed.
I'm glad this poster is still popular after all these years. It started as a lark, throwing together a number of the designs that had been mentioned, but only vaguely sketched out, for Ships of the Star Fleet, the Federation Reference Series and the Heavy Cruiser Evolution Plans. Many fans wanted to know something, ANYTHING about those ships that had been mentioned only by name, with perhaps the barest further description. So this silhouette chart was the result, to give those fans something to further speculate on.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Got top views of these terrible designs (at least from the side, they suck real hard)?
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Dunno, I found the Leonardo side profile quite "conventionally cool" - it immediately struck me as an Oberth-sans-ventral-pod kind of vessel. (The "just two decks" thing is a bit weird, though, since it would be incredibly difficult to squeeze MORE than two decks into an Oberth saucer!)
Very interesting info on the Frobisher and Ariadne... Is the former perhaps conceptually related to the Spaceflight Chronology Sawyer scoutships, which consist of two big nacelles plus a cabin in between?
And what is the latter supposed to do inside a nebula? Is it more like a special research vessel, similar to a minisub a wet navy might operate - or a regular warship/explorer which just happens to have an unconventional drive system, similar to a hovercraft- or hydrofoil-based warship in a wet navy?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: And what is the latter supposed to do inside a nebula? Is it more like a special research vessel, similar to a minisub a wet navy might operate - or a regular warship/explorer which just happens to have an unconventional drive system, similar to a hovercraft- or hydrofoil-based warship in a wet navy?
Timo Saloniemi
Mabye it scans the nebula by filtering large volumes of the gas itself? That would be a neat idea to see in an Enterprise episode....
Posted by aridas (Member # 1051) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: [QB] Dunno, I found the Leonardo side profile quite "conventionally cool" - it immediately struck me as an Oberth-sans-ventral-pod kind of vessel. (The "just two decks" thing is a bit weird, though, since it would be incredibly difficult to squeeze MORE than two decks into an Oberth saucer!)
I'm sorry. The Darwin class is the one that is two decks thick plus a bridge level, because it was quite literally the Grissom without the lower pod, which I took to be a third, (or third and fourth, combined) warp unit. Darwin was a scout, while Grissom with its enhanced enginery was a supercout type.
Leonardo was only one deck thick, a bridge and an expanded deck behind, terminating in the impulse arrangement I mentioned.
quote:Very interesting info on the Frobisher and Ariadne... Is the former perhaps conceptually related to the Spaceflight Chronology Sawyer scoutships, which consist of two big nacelles plus a cabin in between?
I don't recall there being any connection between Frobisher and any of the Chronology ships. There was a close connection between Nordenskjold and that book, however. IIRC Nordenskjold is basically our tip of the hat to Rick's Baton Rouge. We didn't like very much in that book, but liked Rick so we wanted to acknowledge him in some way.
quote:And what is the latter supposed to do inside a nebula? Is it more like a special research vessel, similar to a minisub a wet navy might operate - or a regular warship/explorer which just happens to have an unconventional drive system, similar to a hovercraft- or hydrofoil-based warship in a wet navy?
God, Timo. I don't have a lot of the notes for that thing handy anymore, and I'm trying to remember this stuff. As I recall, Ariadne was my way of really challenging the fans' ideas of what these ships could look like. I went as far outside the envelope as I could while still staying true to what was the accepted, Paramount-given explanation for how things worked. Mandel had explained warp drive in the Maps as I described above, and I took that and went with it. I don't believe that class ever got any more detailed mention in any of the books than name and NCC numbers, so I don't think any clear mission profile was established. It started out as a fighter design, and it ended up as something much bigger. But it still had a very small crew -- twelve IIRC. If I were to pick between your two options, I'd say it was a research vessel, but it was definitely meant to be outfitted with an adapted propulsion system, sort of like the hovercraft that ply the Everglades. A warp drive using existing propulsion tech reworked to access a particular environment in the best possible way.
Posted by Curzon Dax (Member # 1481) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: Interesting story..
I have friend that have ordered from these idjots. They could not handle a rubber raft on a clear day in a kiddie pool. What my friends have found out is what they advertize is different from what they have in stock. I hope you get your chart.
:{)
I was going to warn people against buying from Starland.com, but I'll wait until I have the charts in my hands.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
I got my stuff after I complained via PayPal. They claimed they had ran out of poster tubes or something.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Oh, a reply that I never noticed! Can someone sketch what the Ariadne might look like front on?
Warp coils stacked vertically? Wouldn't that mean the ship has just been turned 90` or would only go 'up'?
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Um, okay, what's the point of quoting someone, if you're not gonna post a reply to it?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
He posted a reply inside the quote. ":{)" indeed.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Well, then he's quoting you as saying that.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
And another aincent thread is brought back from the online-afterlife by Captain Newbie! Join us next week as we re-hash the length of the Defiant for the ten-thousandth time... Posted by aridas (Member # 1051) on :
You guys got me to thinking about the "stovepipe" Ariadne design from the Starship Recognition Chart, and I decided to go ahead and put together some of your speculations with what I had already worked out. This is the result. Thanks for the help:
Heeey....pretty damn nice. Definitely making leonaide out of a lemon design.
A lot smaller than the one on the chart though.
Just scale down the people silouettes...mabye ad a couple of windows or a docking hatch to show scale too.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Nice work Aridas - it'd be nice if you put an Early Starfleet/UESPA/Early Fed logo on the hull.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Wow... tre cool.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Whoa. Definitely..... different. I'd put in some labels so I can figure out what the heck I'm looking at. But very nice!
B.J.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Someone's thinking outside the bun.
Posted by Irishman (Member # 1188) on :
OMG!! I'm drooling
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I found this thread in a Google search after thinking about the recognition chart again and the Ariadne. Anyone manage to get the front on image of the Ariadne? The link doesn't work anymore. Wish I could remember what it looked like. It WAS 12 years ago! Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
As an FYI, new member registrations are still frozen there due to spam-bot attacks. There's a post by Aridas that tells you how to set up a new account (long form).
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I have the first two and treasure 'em... But most importantly, I'm curious as to the other Excelsimbassador bashes were in the third book.![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
?
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