The first season of TNG always seemed like a big anomaly to me in regards to casting. Geordi was driving the ship half the time and in engineering the other half, Worf seemed like a redundant person because we had Tasha Yar, and there wasn't a regular chief engineer. Even with TOS as our only standard to compare it against at the time, it still seemed strange. Does anyone know if there was a reason for all of this?
B.J.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
I believe originally Gene felt engineering would be less important in a ship this futuristic (think Ian M Banks or Revelation Space, the ships take care of themselves). At one point in the early season, it's stated that the first officer looks after engineering. However they soon brought in a concept of chief engineer (I think they had 2 in the first season), and gave it to a lead character to make it more important later. Worf originally was to be a background character (think Leslie), but his popularity kept him on the bridge. Even in TOS they occasionally had different characters at key posts when the main were off shift, where TNG seemed to keep the main characters on the bridge, except when that week involved killing the conn officer.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Worf was only supposed to be an O'brien at first. Little more than a talking extra to add a bit of new age, we-made-peace-with-them coolness to the bridge. After all, it was hinted at that the Kligons had actually joined the Federation by season 1 of TNG (dumb idea).
I don't remember alot of instances of Geordi being in Engineering during Season 1, but it was probably due to the fact that they needed someone doing dialogue, and something for Geordi to do. I doesn't seem like a whole lot mroe thought than "Hey, let's have a blind guy steering" went into his character at first, though some interesting things with his friendship with Riker were established in the pilot, not really to be touched on in the future.
They did have a chief engineer during season 1... actually they went through several of them. Riker must have kept making people mad or something. They went through 1) Lady Mole Face in "The Naked Now", who apparently died as a result of complications during cosmetic surgery, 2) Commander Argyle in "Where No One Has Gone Before" who was probably relieved for having a stereotypically Scottish name, having a beard, and being fat, 3) Lt. Asshole who tried to take command from Geordi in "The Arsenal of Freedom", and 4) Leland T. Lytch, from "Skin of Evil". 3 and 4 may be the same, but I think they were different, and I may have forgotten someone. It does seem odd that such an important post wasn't cast with a regular.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I recall reading that there weren't, originally, any scenes in Engineering in "Encounter at Farpoint," until someone suggested that, if they didn't build the set for the pilot, it would probably never be built, and thus a scene or two was put in. So it makes sense that there wasn't any main character assigned to it at first.
(I think this anecdote is in the TNG technical manual, and I encourage anyone whose copy proves more easily findable than mine to go check.)
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Sol,
I recall that at as well.
Tricky,
I think you might be misremembering something. As XO, it was Riker's job to look after the operation of every department aboard ship, but I don't think he had a particular interest in Engineering (although he did get called down there a few times).
Aban,
Argyle *also* appeared in "Datelore" -- rumor is he wasn't brought back because he was campaigning at conventions for more guest-spots and an expanded role in the series (otherwise Geordi might've stayed on the bridge in the second season) -- and the asshole CEO from "Arsenal of Freedom" was Lt. Logan (who probably got the boot for his actions against LaForge).
Also, he was "Leland T. Lynch" (not Lytch).
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
It was Roddenberry himself who wanted the Engineering set built and used.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I remember the story about Engineering being added in so the set would be built too. Don't remember if it was in the TM, though. Either that, or one of the Art books.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
I seem to remember a scene in the transport room with Picard and Riker (without beard) meeting someone who'd just beamed in, in which Riker stated the first officer was responsible for engineering, or words to that effect. Could of sworn it was the "Where one has gone before" epp, Maybe its the senility kicking in...
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
I also remember the anecdote about getting the engineering set built. I don't have the TM, but I do have the art books, so maybe it's in there (or possibly the Encyclopedia or the Chronology, since I have those)? Unfortunately, they're at home right now, and I'm not.
B.J.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The statement regarding Riker's oversight of the engines, not Engineering, is from WNOHGB. A combadgeless Kozinski and his mystery rank insignia were throwing a fit about Picard not being there to drool over his awesomeness. It seems that a captain should care about his ship's engines. Riker said Picard did care, which is why he had given general oversight of them to his first officer. Basically, as stated before, every department on the ship reported directly to Riker, including Engineering.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
found the script
KOSINSKI A ship's engines should be a concern of the ship's captain...
RIKER They are, sir. Which is why they make their first officers directly responsible for engine condition and performance. (indicating Argyle) Guided, of course, by one of our chief engineers, Lieutenant Commander Argyle in this case.
Me wrong and senile, you right and .... not senile
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Though that script snipet brings up another interesting point that I had forgetton... Argyle was not apparently the chief engineer. He was one of them. Perhaps Lady Mole Face was sill the actual Chief Chief Engineer.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Perhaps he was in control of Engineering for that shift... and that goes for all the other "Chief Engineers" of the season except Logan who probably did replace McDougal who in turn got replaced by Lynch.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: I also remember the anecdote about getting the engineering set built. I don't have the TM, but I do have the art books, so maybe it's in there (or possibly the Encyclopedia or the Chronology, since I have those)? Unfortunately, they're at home right now, and I'm not.
B.J.
Most probably the TNG Companion/Compendium
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Maybe it was an on-going joke to have a new Chief Engineer?
What about the retard-esque Japanese Engineering guy in "The Naked Now" - hanging out with Wesley and pulling out all the chips.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Zuh?
I'm certain it's in the technical manual, on account of me never having looked at any of these other books. (Except the encyclopedia, which I checked.)
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
"Argyle was not apparently the chief engineer. He was one of them."
That assumes the dialogue made it into the episode like that.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
*update*
So, apparently it did. But then later in the same scene, Kasinski says he wants to be taken directly to the engine room. Riker says, "I'll have our chief engineer take you there."
Which seems to imply there is only one chief engineer.
(And when taken with the evidence from the remainder of TNG's run when we only had one chief engineer - LaForge - I think the evidence points to a high turnover among the engineering staff).
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
In the case of Logan, since he was only a Lieutennant, is it possible he was filling in for someone who was on leave or something? When he became a problem, they got rid of him.
That seems to account for three of the four.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Blame Roddenberry. The whole cast of TNG seems to have been assembled in a rather half-assed way, a far cry from the way it was done in later shows (where they could say "Right, we need an Engineer, a Medical Officer, a Science Officer, a Security Officer, etc., one of whom might - or might not - also be the Female Sex Appeal and/or the Fish Out of Water Alien Trying To Get Used To Human Customs"). So you end up with a situation where there are too many people on the Bridge, no Chief Engineer, and almost no Engineering set until they hastily added a scene set there in "EatF" to justify the budget to build one.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
The Japanese guy playing with Wesley in the engine room was an assistant engineer of some kind. IIRC, he was in overalls, not a regular uniform, though he was sitting in the CE's office at one point, I believe, and had access to alot of systems. The lady pretty clearly outranked him, though.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
MacDougall: "THESE are CONTROL chipsss!!!!"
And let's not forget engineer Singh, who has the distinction of being the first crew member actually killed on TNG.
I once remember a discussion where we had concluded that the four folks through the first year were there on rotation to work out various bugs in the engines - never a permenant assignment, though for some of them it may have had that potential.
La Forge spent some time in Engineering in "11001001", which showed the producers that the actor fit in well in the role. The original irony was that the blind guy would be flying the ship, after all.
In the non-canon "Vendetta" novel, Argyle is found to have been transferred to the Excelsior-class USS Repulse, with the inexplicably sex-changed Captain Taggert at the helm. Kind of a step down from working on the Enterprise, really.
Mark
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Which ep was Singh in? I remember him now that you mention him... but I can't remember what ep he was in...
Didn't Q freeze someone to death during EaFP? Some random helmsman who foolishly went for a phaser? Or did he survive?
The explanation of the position being a rotating assignment makes sense. It would also rectify the contradiction with Argyle being the "Chief Engineer" and "one of our chief engineers (or Chief Engineers)."
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Singh was in "Lonely Among Us" and billed as "Assistant Chief Engineer."
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"But then later in the same scene, Kasinski says he wants to be taken directly to the engine room. Riker says, 'I'll have our chief engineer take you there.'
"Which seems to imply there is only one chief engineer."
Or, only one on duty at any given time.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
So was Geordi LaForge the Enterprise's actual Chief Engineer seasons two through seven, or did he just happen to be the on-duty Chief Engineer coincidentally when all the cool shit happened?
I think a more rational explanation is that Riker either mispoke or was making a dig at the fact that Picard had already gone through one engineer and might've been looking to go through a second.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
But Chief Engineer is a position, right? Like Executive or Commanding Officer. Wouldn't there only be one person aboard with that title?
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen: MacDougall: "THESE are CONTROL chipsss!!!!"
And let's not forget engineer Singh, who has the distinction of being the first crew member actually killed on TNG.
I once remember a discussion where we had concluded that the four folks through the first year were there on rotation to work out various bugs in the engines - never a permenant assignment, though for some of them it may have had that potential.
La Forge spent some time in Engineering in "11001001", which showed the producers that the actor fit in well in the role. The original irony was that the blind guy would be flying the ship, after all.
In the non-canon "Vendetta" novel, Argyle is found to have been transferred to the Excelsior-class USS Repulse, with the inexplicably sex-changed Captain Taggert at the helm. Kind of a step down from working on the Enterprise, really.
Mark
Perhaps Argyle saw how often the Enterprise got in trouble and opted to serve on a less doomed ship
As for Taggert, he didn't get a sex change, he had a daughter
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Also there's dialogue in "Encounter at Farpoint" about the frozen guy being thawed out.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: As for Taggert, he didn't get a sex change, he had a daughter
Says who?
{edit) Oh, wait. "Vendetta" was a Peter David novel. That guy' fanboy spooge can rationalize that black is white, when it comes to Trek. >.<
Mark
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
I don't have it for reference at the moment, but in another Peter David book the male Taggert says that he hopes his daughter will take over for him on the Repulse some day.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mark Nguyen:
quote:Originally posted by Captain Boh: As for Taggert, he didn't get a sex change, he had a daughter
Says who?
{edit) Oh, wait. "Vendetta" was a Peter David novel. That guy' fanboy spooge can rationalize that black is white, when it comes to Trek. >.<
Mark
No shit- only Vornholt comes close (by having Picard personally save the ship/galaxy/universe/dimension/existance in every novel he writes).
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
My favorite of Vornholt's was his first and second - "Masks" and "Contagion" IIRC. Was TOS's "Sanctuary" him? I enjoyed that as well. I can't remember if he wrote "War Drums" ... if that was his, it was the last good novel he wrote. Too bad, because I was really peggin' him as one of the better Trek novelists.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
TNG also lacked a dedicated blue shirt Chief Science Officer� and what; there were three science stations on the bridge along the back wall that generally went vacant. I guess they pondered Data was smart enough that he could do everything from ops.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: My favorite of Vornholt's was his first and second - "Masks" and "Contagion" IIRC. Was TOS's "Sanctuary" him? I enjoyed that as well. I can't remember if he wrote "War Drums" ... if that was his, it was the last good novel he wrote. Too bad, because I was really peggin' him as one of the better Trek novelists.
It's partly POcket's fault- they have Vornholt write their annoying crossover every year and they suck harder each time- first was the "Genesis Wave" which was pretty lame (it supposes that Starfleet has kept Dr Marcus under house arrest for 85 years because she's too dangerous) then there's the "Gateways" crossover which brings grifters claiming to be Iconians to town and they manage to activate al the old Iconian gateways at once (they're trying to sell the technology). Both times it's Picard that saves the day- equally shitty is his bringing Uhura in as head of starfleet inteligence (WTF?!?) for all this time...but we just never heard of her doing spy-work before. This year, he's got Spock, Uhura nad Scotty (all a million years old and all still somehow running starfleet) together to save the Romulan Empire (just post Dominion War).
God awful shit.
Really, just read the DS9 books (which rock) and skip everything else completely.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Things went down hill with "Rogue Saucer."
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"So was Geordi LaForge the Enterprise's actual Chief Engineer seasons two through seven, or did he just happen to be the on-duty Chief Engineer coincidentally when all the cool shit happened?"
Well, what I was thinking was that, at first, they had multiple chief engineers. Probably because, when the class was new, they thought "oh, wow, this is our biggest ship ever; we're gonna need five people in charge just to keep engineering running". And, later on, they realized they didn't.
Or something.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Chief impulse engineer, chief warp engineer, chief structural engineer...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
See no Evil, Hear no Evil, Speak no Evil...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
DAMN DIRTY APES
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Uhura was transferred to Starfleet Security in Star Trek III. Then transferred back to the Enterprise in Star Trek V. By Star Trek VI, she was teaching at the Academy.
Speaking of Uhurah - TNG didn't have a dedicated communications officer either. The job seemed to bounce between tacticl and ops.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Uhura
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: See no Evil, Hear no Evil, Speak no Evil...
Which, in Jason's case equates to "Have no fun"
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by HerbShrump: Uhura was transferred to Starfleet Security in Star Trek III.
Uh...when was "Starfleet Security" mentioned? She was a transporter operator at Old City Station.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
..and she's a damn dirty ape! (not a racial thing- she's just, y'know, really really embarassing in STV, but the whole movie's a waste aside from Deforest Kelly's performance).
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'm guessing they didn't have a comm officer because they blatently didn't need one. Uhura was hardly the busiest officer on the ship, was she?
Main Engineering's last-minute-build nature is also shown in the set. Compared to TOS (comparitively, given the budget), Voyager's, and even Defiant's mid-season set-build, it's not overly impressive. The cast are essentially standing in a corridor around a large table. And as for Geordi's office... compared to that, Data could have declared Ops his "office" if he wanted.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, they had no bathrooms to be their "office" so why not?
I actually prefer the Defiant's engineering to Voyager's it's more functional and Voyager's warpcore looks a bit like an aquarium.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
More functional?
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Yeah, what? Inasmuch as the Defiant's room was more compact, I dunno about more functional... If you want pointlessly UN-functional, try the E-E's engine room. Three decks tall, cavernous waste of interior space, and the reaction chamber is ten feet off the ground with NO easy way to access it as on the E-D et. al...
Mark
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
I think that if it were written today, Uhura's job would be more to do with ops. As it is, she's the only officer in TOS who realy had any sort of job like that.
As for engine rooms, the E nil refit sure was pretty with all those lights. Stupid having the dilithium control room so far away from the warp core though.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, if you assume that dilithium works the way it is later decided to, but nobody had thought of that at the time, so I don't think you can say it's intrinsically bad, so much as incongruous, which I'd call a lesser sin.
I think the problem with engineering sets is that, unlike a bridge, where the storytelling function (a room where all the characters get together in a relatively confined space and have lots of plot-related controls and monitors to manipulate) is pretty close to the fictional function (a room where the command crew can control the ship), "real" engine rooms ought to be much more complicated places, and so it's harder to produce a set that marries a convincing look with the necessities of storytelling.
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
1. Excelsior had a "captain of engineering", so there is precedent for overreactions to new engines and techniques.
2. It's possible that extensive rotation of certain engineering personnel might've been useful if we presume the E-D to have been a bit of a test ship. As second of the class and with others under construction, having chiefs with real-world training on GCS systems might be good. On the other hand, it would make more sense to me to have them serve as XO to the real chief . . . but what do I know?
3. One possible advantage to the elevated warp core on the Sovereigns . . . no more tards trying to stick explosives on the warp core. Of course, this would only be really useful if the matter stream were coming from below in the new design, instead of above like usual.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Of course, no crew can easily remove said explosives if they're beamed on either...
Mabye the Sovvie's core is seperated because the shield around it is projected from above or below and encapsulares it as much as possible. That way, if ejected in an emergency, it's detonation does not destroy the ship if it's still close.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"3. One possible advantage to the elevated warp core on the Sovereigns . . . no more tards trying to stick explosives on the warp core. Of course, this would only be really useful if the matter stream were coming from below in the new design, instead of above like usual."
And assuming the bomb isn't magnetic, and they don't have the ability to toss it.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Everyone is able to toss it: it's the first right assured under the Articles of The Federation.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Scotty was promoted to Captain and made the engineer of the Excelsior to kiss his butt while they decommissioned the Enterprise. I don't think it really had anything to do with wanting the best and the brightest engineer aboard. It was pretty obvious that noone at Starfleet gave a crap about the Enterprise crew at that point.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
EXCEPT Scotty. Why would they want to kiss his capacious butt, and no one else's? Everyone else was given shore leave, presumably to be squirrelled back to the Academy from which most came (save arguably Kirk, Sulu and Chekov). I think they genuinely believed Scotty would have been really useful on Starfleet's newest and coolest (sic) ship.
And Scotty's a practical enough man. The Enterprise may have been an old ship by that point, but I think that it was still legendary enough to try to keep in service as a trainer. The whole "I'll get her running again in two weeks" thing was doubtless to whip her into shape again as a training vessel and nothing more - a minor work regardless, especially given that she managed to haul herself back to Spacedock, which explains why Scotty was miffed at being refused even that priviledge. After all, even at that point the Republic must have been floating around out there somewhere...
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Twinkies. They offered him Twinkies.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
with chips..
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The Norpin Colony was really a large all you can eat buffet ? Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It's official name was The Norpin Colony and Sizzler. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Heheh - well now that Scotty got given a sub-light vessel - he can go drive-through where ever he likes! Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Hey guys I hear Scotty is fat and dead lol!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
NO- that was the actor that played his role.
In the novels (at least) Scotty, Uhura, McCoy and Spock are running the whole of Starfleet between them
A real good reason to not read the novels.
Posted by Zefram (Member # 1568) on :
Some of the novels have found an appropriate use for Scotty. The Starfleet Corps of Engineers (SCE) books have him acting as the liason between Starfleet Command and the SCE; a position in which he can still take part in engineering but not have to be overly familiar with late 24th century technology.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I guess so- Scotty being alive and active is no real stretch thanks to his suspended animation from TNG, but the others hould be left well enough alone.
Uhura running starfleet inteligence is particularly offensive- it's like having Rand become Federation President, because, you know, she served under Kirk so readers will identify with and pay to read about her....
Ug.
McCoy should have died with DeForest Kelley- he was pretty frail as of TNG's first episode, but you'd think he was more actuve than on TOS from his book treatment. (and of course both Bashir are Crusher are shown to be in total subservence to him and incapable of doing anything without his approval)
Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Hey guys I hear Scotty is fat and dead lol!
/me begins to skull fuck violently Sol Asshole System
very poor form, good sir.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Personally, I find it amusing that the threat of squicking Sol while at the same time calling him an unpleasant name is apparently good form.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Five guys in outrageously bad suits cant be wrong.
...or right in any way.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Siegfried: squicking
Good word usage! 10 points!
-MMoM Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Wow.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
*imagines the conversation later tonight chez Rune* "Honey, have we tried squicking yet?"
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Such abuse is grounds for divorce/annulment/criminal charges. ...though not so much as wearing one of those suits would be.
Definition 5 brought tears of laughter to my normally jaded eyes. I thought "Oh fuck! they got Jay!" Brain tumor my ass.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
I wish I hadn't eaten before I clicked that link. Like ever eaten before. Someone pass me another bucket... no, no, the bigger one...
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I was referring to the suits.
I think my wife is attractive, but I'm afraid I don't look at her skull in quite that way.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So you didn't marry her for her brains? ...her soft, squishy brains!
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Jason sounds more like a zombie than a squicker.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, when my leg acts up (like today) I sorta walk like one...
Though right now I'd be moaning "Spagetti....SPAGETTI!" as I'm cooking a big batch just now- want some? I can freeze it and ship it to you.... I'm also watching a documentary on Lincon and hope to be done eating before his head gets blown off. After all, if there's one thing history teaches us, it's that it's bad form to eat spagetti while the president's brains are leaking out. Jackie O was sooo right on that one, let me tell ya.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Hey, I had spaghetti last night too! But while eating we were watching a programme that suddenly decided to show some scenes of plastic surgery. Niiiice.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Makes that red sauce just slide down, dont it? incidentally, they tastefully skipped the gory details for the most part- Gore Vidal was narrating that part and got all choked up in a touching way
Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: NO- that was the actor that played his role.
In the novels (at least) Scotty, Uhura, McCoy and Spock are running the whole of Starfleet between them
A real good reason to not read the novels.
Well, as you already said, Scotty makes sense. I would say Spock isn't much of a stretch either. And isn't it just Shatner's books where McCoy does anything?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: Hey, I had spaghetti last night too! But while eating we were watching a programme that suddenly decided to show some scenes of plastic surgery. Niiiice.
Nip/Tuck... the name says it all really. Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Funnily enough, it was a programme on the origin of modern words, and it was a small feature on the origins of "nose job" and "nip and tuck." I gave up on Nip/Tuck after a couple of episodes, I didn't care about the characters.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
Balderdash and Piffle?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Codswallop.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Indeed. I'm drawn to Victoria Coren.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
Yes, she's pretty easy on the eyes. I'm not so sure about the way she tries to sex up the OED though.
On the other hand, full marks for the way she drives that mini! It's an ugly, evil car that deserves to be thrashed until it drops down dead.
Gord bless you m'lady.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
(I'm a big Nip/Tuck fan, myself, even though Lee's instinct about the characters is, I think, correct. They are vividly loathsome.)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And what does that say about you, hmm?
(I sometimes suspect that the ability to watch unlikable characters is varies depending on whether the Atlantic is on your left or on your right. It would explain the lack of success Seinfeld had over here, for instance.)
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
So your thesis is, no unlikable characters in British fiction? Heatchcliff? Darcy? Francis Urquhart? Arnold Judas Rimmer? Del-Boy Trotter?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: And what does that say about you, hmm?
(I sometimes suspect that the ability to watch unlikable characters is varies depending on whether the Atlantic is on your left or on your right. It would explain the lack of success Seinfeld had over here, for instance.)
That's why I dont watch the new BSG: after watching the miniseries and first four or five episode a couple of times, I really hated everyone. Really, I hoped they all died for wasting my time. No one was even intresting.
What's strange (or mabye it's just me) is that all the shows I really like (Farscape, Firefly, DS9, etc.) involve characters that I liked either right away or that showed some real intresting traits from early on.
While I'm in the minority, I never liked Sienfeld at all. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'll grant you some of them, but Del-Boy? How was he unlikable? Even Rimmer was someone to be pitied rather than someone to be despised. And in those shows there were other characters to balance them out. In Seinfeld (and possibly nip/tuck, although I don't watch it) most if not all of the cast are unlikable at the core.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: So your thesis is, no unlikable characters in British fiction? Heatchcliff? Darcy? Francis Urquhart? Arnold Judas Rimmer? Del-Boy Trotter?
Sounds like a pretty daft statement to me too...
Fiction? How about just comedy??
As you said - Rimmer, Mr. Brittas, Basil Fawlty, Blackadder, Patsy Stone, The entire news room on Drop the Dead Donkey, etc. etc.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Okay then, Mr Smart-Arse, YOU explain why the British didn't love the Best Comedy Ever from the US?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Its not British humour. Thus, British people don't like it. QED
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"As you said - Rimmer, Mr. Brittas, Basil Fawlty, Blackadder, Patsy Stone, The entire news room on Drop the Dead Donkey, etc. etc."
Are we talking about characters that are intentionally unlikeable? I'm not familiar with those last two, but all those other characters are meant to be assholes. That's the whole point of them, the purpose they serve on their shows. I mean, where would be the humor if David Brent was a rather pleasant fellow who spent each episode volunteering at a local charity?
See, I thought the conversation was supposed to be about unintentionally unlikeable characters. I mean, clearly the characters on "Seinfeld" are not meant to be hated. And yet, clearly, some people dislike them, anyway. I really don't think that's what the writers were going for.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I disagree about that. I think the characters on Seinfeld are supposed to be seen for exactly what they are: Selfish, petty and obnoxious. But they're so much so, that's it's funny. Also, the series didn't really start out with them that way. They were all fairly likeable early on. You know, before Elaine started having dogs killed and George started not minding when people died.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Topher: Its not British humour. Thus, British people don't like it. QED
Clearly not, as Friends and Frasier and Cheers and the Simpsons and others are all (or were) extremely popular in the UK.
Brent is different from, say, Rimmer, in that he doesn't actually realise he's an arsehole. And he's not, really. He's not intentionally malicious. He genuinly thinks he's a really nice bloke. Rimmer is an actual arsehole, but he's also a sympathetic character because he's had an appalling upbringing and a miserable life.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
I think the reason the British didn't like Seinfeld (not that I watched it myself, ther urg to go out and hurt someone was to great afterwards) is that it was half an hour of them complaining and over analising the situation to death. We don't belive you have a right to wine endlessly: You put up, shut up, or do something about it. Dave Lister, ambition of a chicken vindaloo: did he complain (much) about being the last of his shipmates alone 3 million years from Earth? No, he asks the ship to turn around and head back, in the vague hoe that a beach still exsisited wheer he could farm goldfish, eat curry, and drink beer.
Only fools and horses is about standing on your own 2 feet and trying in the face of adversity and inflatable sex toys. And that is why most of us like the new Galatica, They may not be perfect, They maybe caught in a fight slightly less nasty than Saturday night in Romford high street, but they are not giving up.
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
Not to pull this thread off on another topic, but....
tricky, your sig has always confused me. Has Terry Pratchett never seen the Evil Dead series, which predates Doom?
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
(Plus, there was no double-barreled shotgun in Doom. This man clearly knows not his classics.)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The fact that Friends is a big hit in Britain and Seinfeld is not blows the knees out of any argument for British comedic taste.
(It would be like America going crazy for, I don't know, My Hero or something.)
"Brent is different from, say, Rimmer, in that he doesn't actually realise he's an arsehole."
Yes, but that's not the point. I'm talking about the difference between a character who was specifically written to be annoying (which Rimmer and Brent both are), and a character that the writers didn't try to make annoying, but whom you find annoying anyway.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Fuck Sienfeld. A more overrated show is tough to imagine.
Sealab 2020, mabye.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Indeed. What we need is a satirical take to knock it off its incredibly high pedestal in American culture. Perhaps we could set our version, like, one year later, stir things up a bit.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Okay then, Mr Smart-Arse, YOU explain why the British didn't love the Best Comedy Ever from the US?
OK Mrs Smart-Arse - I will try.
I don't think it's a matter of LOVING or LIKING Seinfeld... As I have heard - Seinfeld in Britain was treated badly - given bad timeslots etc. Thus there was no collective 'love' of the show.
In Australia - it initially was treated like that - on Channel 9. Then it was bought/moved to Channel 10. They - who don't buy every show and hold on to it or treat it badly like 9 and Channel 7 - gave it a fantastic Tuesday 8pm timeslot for the next 7 or so years. It became a widespread phenomenon - which everyone was watching and talking about - cause there was pretty much nothing else to watch in comparison and.
That's why Trek didn't get the higher status it deserved here. It was kept by Channel 9 and played at odd hours and varing days usually anywhere after 11pm until 2am on a Tuesday or a Thursday.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by tricky: I think the reason the British didn't like Seinfeld (not that I watched it myself, ther urg to go out and hurt someone was to great afterwards) is that it was half an hour of them complaining and over analising the situation to death. We don't belive you have a right to wine endlessly: You put up, shut up, or do something about it.
*nearly spits out drink - if was drinking one at the time*
WHAT!?! Clearly you aren't familiar with the phrase "Whinging Poms"!?!
HAHAH!
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
That's because you have you country/continent to hot. It needs more drizzle.
Re: TP and DooM. Evil Dead I think made less of an impact than DooM overhere, (ED had an 18 certificate, DooM didn't), and he either was thinking of DooM II or double barrel sounds better than single. I would go and see if he's still answering on a forum somwhere, but asking about a off handed quote not even in one of his books might be pushing my sadness to far.
Talking of trek's status, I have various Spanish and French friends and some of them havn't even heard of star trek.
Posted by Johnny (Member # 878) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: The fact that Friends is a big hit in Britain and Seinfeld is not blows the knees out of any argument for British comedic taste.
(It would be like America going crazy for, I don't know, My Hero or something.)
Friends was a hit because everyone was able to watch it at prime time week in, week out for its entire run. It's now actually shown so often that it's become annoying. But as someone else noted, Seinfeld's barely been seen here. I reckon I'd enjoy it far more than Friends, but I've never seen an episode. I can't remember the last time it was in the shedules.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
It was on a few years ago on BBC2 at stupid o'colock at night.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
That was true for most of the run. I know I was still at uni when it started on BBC2, so that would put it at around 1993. I've no idea when it finished its run though. It was shown as a double-bill with Larry Sanders, which at the time I preferred. Probably still do.
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