quote:

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Originally posted by Toadkiller:
I think Frakes would be a good Captain, Riker just was never written consistently.

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Exactly- sometimes he's a great lead character, ready to be a captain and others he....just there.
If they had made him captain after BOBW II, it would have worked out nicely (assuming they wrote him as he appeared in that episode- or even as he was in The Pegasus).
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Funly enough, TV1 - a cable station here in Australia just finished airing a season 3 marathon. They usually play the first episode of the next season if it is a cliff hanger too.

It was an interactive marathon too - so you could press the 'red' button if you have digital and watch interviews and behind the scenes on four different channels!

Anyway - of course they just finished up with Best of Both Worlds.

Gotta love the music. The first time the Borg Cube appears and the end the cliff hanger after Ricker says "Mr Worf... Fire!" BAM BAM BAM! BAM BAM BAM! BAM! Awesome.

So many other things too.

Season 3 is one of the best seasons - consistant all the way through with fantastic episodes.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
It always bothered me that (due to encapsulating stories foe syndication) no real follow-up from Picard's Borgification was done between "Family" and "The Drumhead" (where it seems that his role in so many deaths has preyed on him somewhat.
 

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Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
 
Wow Jason.. you sure just put the last 15 years into perspective.

Don't forget to add a comparison to the battle in FIRST CONTACT.. where it was more even, after a few years of Federation science and what was probably a crash-shipbuilding program.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Y'know...W359 would have been a mostly moral defeat for the Federation.
No "crash-shipbuilding program" would have been required to recover from a loss of 39 starships.

Consider: during DS9, we saw that Starfleet has at least 2000 operational starships ( a low number, but for the sake of argument, we'll leave it there). This makes sense to me (indeed, a much larher number would make more sense- though comprised of mostly smaller vessels) considering the immense volume the Federation covers.

It does, however make the 'ol "only ship in range" more annoying than ever- it should be common to see four or five starships within populated systems- they'd never have to be remotely near each other- not even within visual sensor range- but to think that systems like Vulcan, Sol, Andor, Betazed dont have constant inter-system commerce is assinine.

At the very least, there should be hundreds of starships still in service from the MIranda era forward- many downgraded to civilian or "home fleet" service.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 
Maybe when using those lines they should have said... "no starships in the area... up to the job".
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
There's often some lack of judgement on Starfleet's part, too. If the brass had just taken Kirk and company and transplanted them onto a fully-crewed and functional ship and THEN sent them to Nimbus III, you can bet that they would not have been taken over by a laughing Vulcan and his dogs.

[rimshot]

My dream in fandom is to complete a CGI movie depicting my interpretation of the COMPLETE battle of Wolf 359, beginning to end. From the opening salvoes of the Saratoga and Melbourne (which I consider to have been an unmanned bomb, and there was indeed another one there), through the destruction of whatever ship Hanson was sitting on, to the final shot of escape pods warping away from a Borg cube that was happily munching on half-assimilated starships. Beauty.

Mark

[ January 09, 2006, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
I hope you'll use the old-style red photons as well, right?
Hm, we never saw any ship fire torpedoes in "Emissary", did we? How stupid of them.
Enterprise did in BoBW, were those red?
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Kind of orange-ish.
I figure what we saw in "Emissary" was just the very start of a running battle threough the system- only about 15(?) ships of 39 are clumped closely when Enterprise finds the debris field....
and a solar system (assuming it really is one) is a very large place.

As for the CGI wet-dream, I'd want a scene depicting the Cube branching off a vehicle (like a Sphere) and dispatching it back to the Collective (after it's loaded up with assiminlated starfleeters, of course).
Mabye even assimilating a large ship (like a Nebula) and it zipping off all borg-ified.

I'd also want to see someone ram the cube at warp- it's a pretty obvious tactic when all else fails, and I'd like to know how the Borg had prepared for it.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I'm not so sure warp speed ramming is an obvious tactic. I mean, you're already breaking several natural laws at warp speed; why assume that F=MA comes through unscathed?
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
We have never seen anything run into something else during warp, maybe the weightless ship, in its warp bubble, would just stop against the object in question (as a speck of dust would) and then disintegrate.

Although if the warp bubble breaks 10 meters in front of the ship when crashing in warp, technically the ship should regain its weight while traveling those last ten meters to target.
I'm gonna need a better stop watch, but it could work.
 

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Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
 
The Enterprise D hit a quantum filament at warp- they are said to have almost no mass, yet it caused a great deal of damage.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
If you could time the ship's massive self-destruct to coincide with a kamakazie run at warp, it's be a very impressive weapon.
No really ramming the target, but exiting a nanosecond prior to collision while the ship's antimatter detonates and whatever extra mass is translated as concussive physical force moving with insane velocity.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Huh?
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
Assuming you can retain some of the momentum from warp (or at least the same you entered warp with initially) the computer could detonate the ship just before impact- making a kind of shaped blast toward the target with all the ship's debris acting like shrapnel.

Near lightspeed (or at least full-impulse speed) shrapnel.
 

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
Yeah, but it's not proper momentum, is it? We've seen what happens when a warp field collapses - the ship slows down to a 'normal' velocity. That can only happen if the ship's speed isn't really real. So there's no point in ramming at warp - indeed, the warp field might hinder such an action.

The most you could hope for by ramming is the effect of impulse speed x ship's mass + antimatter explosion (following containment breach as ship is destroyed by collision).
 

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Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
 
I think Lee's right.

What we have seen on screen supports the idea that the warp field alters the ship's relationship with normal space, and any velocity is gained through use of conventional, non physics busting engines.

On the other hand, it has been hinted that the propulsive forces are created by having the warpfield in a state of flux, and moving a sort of warp current allon the field (I never realy like physics, but I hope you get the idea).

So, in order to guess what would happen when a ship whacks into something at warp, we need to know the exact mechanisim of the warp drive.
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
TOS "Obsession" makes it sound like you can warp around when your impulse engines are under maintenance, so apparently the warp engine itself provides the speed and acceleration somehow.

And while the warp engine doesn't create anything as permanent as momentum, it still allows the ship to hit the target very, very fast. While such a projectile would deliver negligible destructive energies onto the Cube as such, it would probably still deliver a nasty tankful of antimatter deep within the Cube: the sheer speed would make it seep through the walls, there being no time for the matter and the antimatter to interact.

Or the matter and the matter, for that matter. Things at high realspace speeds become deadly bullets. But things at even higher speeds ought to become essentially transparent to each other.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
One thing we have seen, however, is ships going to warp during high impulse speed and then continuing in that speed and momentum as they exit warp, as if the warp bubble "saved" the acting momentum and let go of it when disappearing.

And another thing; ships seemingly can't ram eachother with warp bubbles in realspace, but they can ram eachother in warp, as the Borg Cube responsible for Voyager's survival did against the 8472-vessel. It seemed to carry all its weight and momentum in there.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
I agree that momentum carried into warp is retained (the Odyssey exits warp with a full head of steam for example, but obviouls slows from FTL) and it explains whay we usually see ships zoom into warp from relativly stationary positions.

All that being said, a collision a full impulse is a wildlly destructive force (dominion war anyone?) so popping out of warp while retaining the momentum of full impulse (however fast that is- 25% of c?) would make for a very fast flying bomb with no real way to prepare or deflect it.

Unless the Borg's (long-forgotten) Subspace Field somehow keeps the cube slightly out of phase with our dimension (slightly phased into subspace mabye?).
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Have we ever seen a ship go into warp from a standstill?

Also, for some reason, certain Trekships have slowed down momentarily before entering warp, for example the Defiant fleeing the Vor'cha in WOTW and of course the Voyager title sequence.

In both these cases I suspect cinematography overruled logic. The creators deemed that the viewers need to see a moving ship entering warp, otherwise they would think it just vanished if it disappeared while standing still. Unless the nonmoving ship stretches away for warp, ZAP!-like.
By the same logic, it would look cool if the ship halted slightly before entering warp sometimes, as if it was an athlete getting ready to jump.

I think Star Wars ships can enter hyperspace from a standstill. I seem to remember the SD Solo had attached himself to was standing still before zapping away, leaving the Falcon and Slave I in the garbage flow.
 

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Posted by The Vorlon (Member # 52) on :
 
The Enterprise went to warp from a standstill right after the shuttle crash-landed in ST5...

"Varp speed NOW..."
 

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
But they weren't at a standstill really, were they? Standard orbit - controlled freefall around a planet's gravity well.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
If we're going to get technical, there's really no such thing as a standstill, anyway.
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Well with impulse and thrusters at 0% then, mom.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
But what difference does that make?
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Because cinematography-FX in Trek always has supplied the illusion that if you shut off your engines in Trek you stand still, like Kirk and Kruge did.
Many ships also turn and bank in spite of momentum, turning on the 2d plane, like a bumper car.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
But they dont slow down with their engines powered off- not impulse anyway.
Possesed Picard even lectures Riker on it in season one (something about conserving power by coasting).
 

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
So the point is, trying to determine whether ships lose or retain momentum when dropping out of warp isn't gonna be solved by looking at whether ships gain momentum (or not) when entering it!

Warp speed /= normal speed, because there are no relativistic effects. There isn't even any time dilation from internal or external POVs when entering normal space, it's always appeared pretty instantaneous. But given the sheer speeds involved at warp, if even a fraction of these velocities can be carried over to normal space then relativistic effects would apply.
 

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
One FX shot that's alwats bothered me - the Excelsior chasing the Enterprise out of spacedock in ST3. When the Transwarp computer fails because of Scotty's sabotage, the ship visibly slows down to a near-standstil (realtive to Spacedock). But the ship obviously wasn't at warp; was it at Transwarp? If at impulse it'd have retained the motion, and I'm sure Scotty specifically says he removed components from the transwarp computer. . .
 

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Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
 
Maybe the ship lost all locomotive power at that moment and he proximity to Earth's gravity well stopped it... If we had seen more, it probably would have started moving backwards.
 

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Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Back into Spacedock? Or down? Because the Excelsior is already travelling at an orbital velocity and I see no reason why losing transwarp drive would change that.

My problem, originally, was simply this: You can't say that ramming at warp is a perfectly logical tactic because nobody knows enough about how warp drive "really" works to say what would happen.
 

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Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
 
Yay Sol!

So in conclusion -

1: we don't know what would happen if you rammed a ship (or anything) at warp speed.

2: the guys who do the SFX shots in trek don't remember to take physics into account when they go for the money shot.
 

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Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
 
On seccond thoughts though - when you think about it, the amount of fuel required to move the ship using what is essentialty a fusion reactor is quite high.

(anybody know how to work out how much you'd need to move, say, the excelcior to full impulse from being docked?)

I'm guessing that it's plausable that the impulse drive uses another device to alter the laws of physics (such as the subspace device on the Ambasadors impusle drive), which went off line with the warp/transwarp drive, reducing the speed of the excelcior. Perhaps.

Or refer to point 2 in my previous post.
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lee:
One FX shot that's alwats bothered me - the Excelsior chasing the Enterprise out of spacedock in ST3. When the Transwarp computer fails because of Scotty's sabotage, the ship visibly slows down to a near-standstil (realtive to Spacedock). But the ship obviously wasn't at warp; was it at Transwarp? If at impulse it'd have retained the motion, and I'm sure Scotty specifically says he removed components from the transwarp computer. . .

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It slowed down because Scotty had temporarily transferred his own huge mass to the Excelsior via pre-arranged transporter beaming.
The Excelsior's impulse engines were suddenly overloaded and the ship stalled- it comes to a stop as Spacedock's automatic tractor beams held the disabled ship in position (installed after some engineer saw an aincent movie called "RTOJ" and decided that a collision could be embarassing).

Later, (STV) Scotty cleary had regained all his Neutronium-level mass and the Excelsior is a speedy ship (as it should be without STIII's awful slapstick moment and engine-knock sound effects).
 

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Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
 
Ginger's pretty close to what I think is the mark. I think this was hammered out pretty well in the Treknology section some time ago. The Ambassador was the first class to incorporate separate subspace driver coils into the impulse engine assembly. Prior to that, ships used the mass-reducing effects of low-powered subspace fields from the warp engines. So when the Excelsior's warp drive conked out, her apparant mass returned to normal, and her momentum wasn't sufficient yet to shift that bulk at more than a few metres per second. That may have been what inspired them to do what they did with the Ambassador...

As for other matters, in TNG times "full impulse" is limited to .25c for preactical reasons. This is not the functional top sublight speed of starships. If you pull out all the stops, you can run up to .99c if you feel like it, but will later have to compensate for relativistic effects. And a ship moving at nearly 300,000 kilometres per second is gonna do a lot of damage to whatever it runs into. Think cosmic rays, but about several billion times more massive.

At warp, things become even more interesting. If simple impact is what happens, then the ship essentially becomes a giant tachyon. If the subspace bubble somehow prevents physical interaction with sublight objects (which I can't imagine it would), then drop out of warp inside the target. Ick. Alternately, one could use the outlawed phasing cloak to similar effect.Or just pummel a Borg ship until its subspace field collapses (or at least becomes compromised) and have everybody start beaming antimatter inside.

Getting back to realistic tactics, photon (and presumably quantum) torpedoes have warp sustainer engines. Do a warp 9.975 run-up in an Intrepid, drop a passel of torps, veer off, and watch them plow into the Cube at several thousand times light-speed. Hell, even some warp-capable probes would do nicely, due just to velocity and the antimatter they carry to power their microwarp engines.

--Jonah
 

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Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
 
Combining the Excelsior stalling thing with the ENT backstage technobabble, I'd say that ships from the pre-Ambassador era manipulated their inertia with a combo of the warp engines and the blue glowing "field stabilizer" thingamabob that appears on basically all pre-ENT, ENT and TFS designs (although not on the TOS era ones).

Post-Ambassador designs would move the blue doohickey into the impulse engines themselves, and make it independent of externally created warp fields. This would come at an extra cost: why install dedicated subspace coils for the impulse drive if warp coils already exist for the trick? Thus, only the biggest of the modern ships would rely on this tech, while something like the Defiant shuttlecraft would still use the cheaper alternative.

TOS era ships might have tried another expensive alternate method, which was abandoned by the time of TMP.

Whether the different types of starship would have different ramming properties... It probably depends on whether "integrated" and "warp field tapping" inertia manipulation effects collapse differently when the ship flattens itself against the Cube.

As for maximum impulse speed and related ramming energy, I don't think either 0.25c or 0.99c would be a relevant figure when a starship rams a Cube from a relative standstill across a range of just a few hundred or at most thousand klicks. Even at ten thousand gees, ten times the supposed Ambassador performance, it'd take about an hour to accelerate to 0.99c if Einstein was asleep, and the better part of a working day if General Relativity was vigilant. Assuming my math isn't too badly affected by my lack of sleep and concentration.

Still, something must be negating the inertia of starships or torpedoes if they can't dent the Cube with kinetic energy alone. We can always argue that shields deflect/absorb/turn-into-sperm-whales-and-petunias kinetic energy better than they do phaser energy or photon torpedo explosive energy, though. Perhaps even the fastest and most massive bullet can't deliver the correct type of joules to the target, and thus won't make the desired dent.

Timo Saloniemi
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
It's interesting that there's a discussion of warp-ramming in a thread started by BOBW part 2 and no-one has mentioned that Riker apparently plans to do just that at the end of said episode.

(Okay, you could technically argue that he wanted warp "power", rather than warp "speed". But that seems to be stretching things.)
 

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Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
I thought he just said "ramming speed", later repeated by Worf in FC...
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Regardless, they were at a dead stop relative to the cube AND being held by a tractor beam. They may have tried warp acceleration to ram it and shake off the beam, but I think that Riker would have been just as happy trying to explode that close and cause some damage.

Mark
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
He ordered The Boy to set a collision course and to prepare to go to warp on his order. I don't think they were being held by a tractor beam at the time either. The cube was in Earth orbit and the Enterprise was in pursuit... but I don't remember tham being in a tractor beam at that point.

I think Worf on the Defiant just said, "Prepare for ramming speed!!!" After which he was informed dat his ship be aw broke. Shortly afterwards, the Borg cube tried to lock a tractor beam on the ship, but was denied the opportunity by the Enterprise E
 

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Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
 
Nope, a tractor beam was most certainly on the E-D at the time. When Data sent over the "sleep" command, I quite clearly rembember the VFX shot of the tractor and cutting beams disengaging at different times.

As for the Defiant, Work just barely utters his command before Helm Boy reports another starship coming in. It's the Enterprise! Cut to the exterior VFX of the Borg tractor starting to lock on before photon torpedoes from the E-E destroy the emission point, followed by the new ship sailing by.

Mark <-- good memory of cool VFX shots
 

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Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
The Borg were trying to lock on a tractor beam at that point, but I don't know if they had succeeded. There was a definite countdown of some kind going on though (possibly the shields beginning to fail) that caused Riker to tell Data that they couldn't hold on any longer.
 

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Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Right... I think the Borg were *trying* to lock on... but hadn't yet. And, yes, thinking back, the reason they had to hurry was because they were under attack, not because Earth was about to be attacked.
 

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Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
 
Was just on Spike TV today. The Borg had them in a tractor beam, and their cutting beam was about to reach Main Engineering. That was the countdown. Riker ordered Wes to set a collision course, and called down to Engineering to tell Geordi to stand by to go to warp power.

Got to dig the graveyard scene all over again...

--Jonah
 

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Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
 
Here's some info and thoughts on warp ramming that I composed back in July '05:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWwarpram.html

Might provide more fodder for the discussion.
 

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Posted by Pensive's Wetness (Member # 1203) on :
 
A bit of necrothread casting but (AND I KNOW i asked about this long ago, just don't recall when) where are the filming miniatures for BOBW now? who has them? Is the Kyushu still hanging from threads in a office somewhere?

is it even possible to find out?
 

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Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
 
With the exceptions of the Ambassador and Nebula, none of the BOBW ships were sold at auction- none of the kitbashes went.
None of the DS9 bashes either except the Yeager.

I was hoping hor good reference shots for some of those ships but they're probably in storage- awaiting Mike Okuda's retierment aution.
 

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Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Vorlon:
The Enterprise went to warp from a standstill right after the shuttle crash-landed in ST5...

"Varp speed NOW..."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
With the exceptions of the Ambassador and Nebula, none of the BOBW ships were sold at auction- none of the kitbashes went.
None of the DS9 bashes either except the Yeager.

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The Nebula wasn't sold, all the new photos of it are from the touring exhibition.

You could say the Saratoga was sold, though, since the Reliant model went.
 

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Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
 

I don't know which of them were responsible for the naked Uhura fan-dance, though.

First, was, not were, and second Kirk. Has to have been Kirk.
 

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Posted by Zipacna (Member # 1881) on :
 
Indeed, it must have been Kirk. Everyone knows Kirk had a grandma fetish. Indeed his encounter with the Ferengi and the so-called Moogiegate are required reading at the Academy...
 

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
Star Trek Online's take on the ships present at Wolf 359
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12eo88lcqbj0ew3lFyv4bpdXTYmAJuswX/view

Not going to bother to point out the inconsistencies.
 

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Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
 

 

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
It’s fucking moronic, is what it is. Given we - still? - only know the names of about a dozen ships that were there, and can infer a few more I think, any exercise in naming them all becomes very subjective. But this particular example is just stupid. The Akira-class prototype USS Kaneda? Was the artist dropped on his head as a child?
 

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
(Also quite amusing to read back through this thread nearly twenty years after its initiation! I wonder what us then would think of everything we’ve seen since, the warp effects in nuTrek with ships slamming out of warp to a complete stop, seemingly appearing from nowhere. Or the Holdo Manoeuvre…)
 

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Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
 
I'm no fan of the Niagara or Freedom classes, finding them less than properly consistent with other designs . . . but then I see the Discoverse design inclusions in this and suddenly the Niagara is frickin' beautiful.

The Vesper class toward the upper right doesn't look wholly implausible, from a top view, but the Parliament and Shikahr are pretty goofy. If you start including non-round saucers too early, and then have zero consistency in regards to angle, then the whole concept behind ellipsoid saucers becomes mere fashion choice.

If starship design is purely a function of fashion, with new designs coming out each season emerging from starbase as if strutting down a runway with a blank expression, then there's nothing interesting about starships anymore.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Honestly, I don't mind the ShiKahr. It looks like a later take on a Miranda, though maybe a little more like VOY-era, rather than mid-TNG.

I'm not a huge fan of the Parliament, but I can definitely imagine it showing up in one of the later TNG films.

The Vesper looks way too Discovery for my tastes.

The Georgiou looks like someone said "what if Centaur, but more".

And the Narendra looks like an attempt at an Ambassador refit, to which I say : if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
 
If anything, the Narendra looks like they’re trying to canonise the Probert-C design.

Speaking of which - recently on Twitter a user turned up claiming to be Probert (used the handle @the_probert I think)… and proceeded to express the most horrifically repellent views. Racism, homophobia, transphobia, you name it. The account immediately came in for a universally hostile response before either going private or getting deleted. Very odd.
 

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Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
 
Sadly, that would be in line with what I've heard come from Andy Probert's conservatism.

Also, I use the Probert E-C as the Renaissance class. It fit well.
 

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Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 

"If anything, the Narendra looks like they’re trying to canonise the Probert-C design."

Oh, good point. I think you're probably right.

That's too bad about Probert apparently being a piece of shit, but what can you do, I guess?
 

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Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :
 
Probert left the territory of conservatism a long time ago.

https://www.instagram.com/probert_designs/
He's all about chemtrails, conspiracy theories and Trump nowadays.
 

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Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TSN:

The Georgiou looks like someone said "what if Centaur, but more".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Shik:

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hobbes:

quote:

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Originally posted by Shik:

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Just quoting this because I love Letterkenny and Shoresy. Almost every Colorado Avalanche home game I go to someone is wearing a Shoresy jersey.

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