I'm serious here. In Trek, they're apparently sentient and technically competant, and great navigation experts. Fine, I can dig that. But are we to assume that in Trek, that true sentience and communication arose naturally? Are we just waitng for someone in Trek history to invent the universal translator, switch it on at SeaWorld, and have the first garbled words come back be "It's about FREAKING TIME!!!"?
Have there been instances of trek fanon or literary canon that deal with earth cetaceans, and just how we got talking with our planet's pelagic people?
Mark
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Well, apparently, the humpback whales (or their evolutionary predecessors) were actively conversing with the giant-salami-and-soccer-ball-probe aliens in prehistoric times, at least according to Spock's (implicitly correct) conjecture in STIV. And he did communicate telepathically with Gracie the humpback. (She told him she was pregnant and that she was unhappy about the way her species had been treated by Man.)
-MMoM Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Although we shouldn't necessarily assume, just from that, that humpback whales are intelligent in the same way that humans are. That is, I mean, they clearly aren't tool-users, for instance.
Were I In Charge, I don't think I'd put, say, dolphins wandering around in excursion suits, ala at least one TNG novel, I think. They can be useful without being the same kind of conscious entity as, say, a Vulcan or an Andorian. That is, barring some Brinian uplifting in the backstory.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Yah, one novel has them as sentient members of Starfleet and able to sense some kind of subspace disruption, or something. I don't know if it was an Earther Dolphin though.
The only canon reference to dolphins in Star Trek, at least as regards them being aboard starships, is Geordi's line to the Ferengiwhilst trying to distract him from bugging the lucky old geezer who got to guard Kimala: "Have you seen the dolphins?" This suggests that there are in fact dolphins aboard the Ent D, but in what capacity is unclear. They could be part of Crusher's zoo for all we know.
Posted by JupiterStation (Member # 1811) on :
I tend to think that the dolphin/whale/earth cetacean/human relations is a fairly recent development in the trek universe. Maybe something that happened after Kirk and company brought back the humpback whales, someone decided to investigate (maybe out of guilt for all the years of hunting and Seaworld crap ) the possibility of formal relations as equal beings. And as a result, wouldna ya know it, turns out the cetaceans make pretty dern good starship navigators...better than going blind looking at those Medusan fellows anyway. So the dolphins, being smaller and easier to transport have a go at it. The whales, on the other hand, remembering the way the humans piloted ships in Trek IV, graciously declined the offer. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Fuck the entire notion. Seriously- it's stupid as hell.
I've actually gone swimming with dolphins (a perk of living in south florida) and while they're bueatiful, highly responsive animals, they're animals.
No smarter than dogs as far as sentience or verbal communication.
They'll never be sentient because they never had to evolve that way to survive- like sharks, they reached a point where their design was optimal for their place in the ecosystem, and unless Trek's universe somehow altered them via eugenics, they'll remain cute animals that we project human emotions onto.
They are also not always the nicest sea creatures-people tink "flipper" and forget that these are predators.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
So are humans.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Not in the way that hunting and devouring prey is our prime motivation- sentience and inteligence has made us masters of environs not our own, while animals subsist on their instincts to get by.
But your mileage may vary, and you may love the notion of whales and dolphins as somehow being sentient but us somehow missing it all these years.
Personally, I thought it made STIV's premise pretty flakey. I once saw a show where they had a talking dolphin as a crewmember....what was it again? Hmmm....lets see now...
Oh yes- total shit. Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Jason, I think we need to remember that this is the Star Trek Universe we're talking about here -- the same Star Trek Universe where species from opposite ends of the galaxy with totally different biochemistries can interbreed and produce viable (not to mention FERTILE) offspring and in which evolution apparently occurs at a MUCH faster rate than in Real LifeTM...
Besides, I'm pretty sure that studies have shown dolphins and whales to be significantly more intelligent than dogs, i.e., on par with primates such as chimps. I am waaay to lazy to dig up sources for that, though. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
It depends on your testing though- yes, tey likely are[/ as smart as chimps...
but I'm not serving on a starship with a chimp as navigator. Not even Furious George.
Then again, I'm one of the few that thinks Distant Origin was an incredibly stupid- STUPID idea. (makes choking gestures toward all involved in that shitty episode's writing).
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I agree that it (like much [though not all] of Voyager) was shitty, but it's canon. Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
Seaquest. That was the show with the talking dolphin. But it was a translator and the dolphin sounded kind of like a retard. They had a cool little dolphin scuba suit for him and everything.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well....so is Janeway turning into a salamander. And an entire episode devoted to ships supposedly not being to turn while at warp (bookended by episodes showing Voyager doing just that several times).
(shrugs)
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Dark Mirror. That was the episode with the dolphin crewmember or scientist who could tell that, dimensionally, something was rotten in Denmark. His dialogue was really stupid, and really he was just a MacGffin to alert the crew that they'd crossed into the Mirror Universe.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
These are some of the reasons why I didn't like Brin's "Uplift War" series (plus the fact that he had these aliens living in the sun....) I'm not seeing and can't understand this desire to turn dolphins and chimps into sentient beings equal to humans.
But Planet of the Apes was cool (both versions). Go figure.
One of the Trek novels, "Probe" focused on the Probe from ST:IV. I've not read the book to see how involved the cetacaens are, though.
From Barns and Nobles:
quote:Ten years have passed since Captain Kirk and the EnterpriseTM crew brought back hump-backed whales from the twentieth century to communicate with the mysterious Probe which threatened Earth. The Probe is returning to Earth and has plotted its course, and the Enterprise must continue to delve into the mystery of its language, and its cosmic purpose to save Earth once again.
This adventure relates a saga of whales and the Starship Enterprise's attempts to save the earth.
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
I read that book years ago. Can't remember much about it now, but they managed to communicate with the probe, I think. Turns out it was attacked by the Borg in its past, etc.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
In the novel world, everything was once attacked by the Borg. V'Ger, the whale probe, everything that ever existed.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Pretty terible book as I recall- I was trapped on a plane somewhere with only that to distract me from a very tiny coach seat for my 6'1 frame.
It must have sucked, as I can tell you almost nothing about the book either....
...and my ability to recall minute details of trivial, useless things is staggering.
Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
Hey, wait a minute... that was the book which was renamed and rewritten despite author protests? Was it supposed to be called "Music of the spheres" or smth?
Posted by JupiterStation (Member # 1811) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: I agree that it (like much [though not all] of Voyager) was shitty, but it's canon.
Kinda how I feel about it (dolphins on board starships) prolly not the way I would have went with it, but no one asked me, so, just kinda quietly work it into the background... Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
The TNG Tech Manual mentioned a crew of so-many dolphins (bottlenose and something else) headed by 2 supervisory orca-whales being navigators. I had thought at the time that it was just a joke...
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
And there's ANOTHER thing. Species discrimination! Are we saying that orcas are just naturally better at supervising as a species and thus are assigned to look over the dolphins? Or are we refering specifically to the Enterprise, which is proud to boast its complement of two lieutenant-ranked orcas assigned to a batch of wet behind the blowholes ensigns who all just happen to be of the dolphin persuasion?
Mark
Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
Reminds me of a Trek novel in which instead of 'species' they said 'forms of humanity' to sound less discriminating. ...sounds far *more* discriminating to me. Trying to make everything like you.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Of course, one problem is that there really are differences in cognitive abilities and aptitudes between species. We tend to think of intelligence, however nebulously defined, as a more or less binary phenomenon. Something either has a human-like intelligence or it doesn't. But I'm not so sure that's the case. That is, that there is some boundary or border between the thinking that we do and the thinking that, say, chimpanzees do.
There is clearly a difference, but is it qualitative or quantitative?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
All this debate over the second most intelligent species on the Earth...
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
We might not be debating that they are smart but more like what the hell would we put tanks in the Galaxy Class ship for then?
If I recall corretly, someone made original blueprints of the Enterprise-D that reflected its "cruise ship" interior that ended up being changed to what we saw the semicanon blueprints for. Go figure its mentioned in TNG perhaps more like how the gardens are... for research.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Those tanks coulud easily be for aquatic Federation crewmembers- a couple of years back, I was reading an intresting article on the possibility of sentient lifeforms originating in a deep-sea environment.
They might communicate via chromataform color changes on their bodies (like some squids use during mating), so never even consider audio communication signals. No more than we search the night's sky for projected infra-red signals or something else so...alien our senses.
That whole "we did a planetary survey in a few days" bit from TNG was soooo much bullshit- each class M world would need decades to make even a half-assed survey (and that's with useing TNG level technology!).
So the tanks on a GCS might house anything from hundreds of colonial-inteligence inscets that need special stmosphere to something that would be instantly killed in one "G" of pressure
It's concievable that starfleet operates entire starships that have no humanoid crewmembers (or that the humanoids live in enclosed habitats while the majority have free-reign of the ship with it's hazardous pressure/atmosphere/radiation/tempature.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"No more than we search the night's sky for projected infra-red signals or something else so...alien our senses."
The eerilyinhuman technology of infrared signals.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmmm I guess I was unclear- obviously we've been useing it as atelescope for years, but not as a potential source of ET transmissions. SETI is an near-impossibe dream looking for giant, obvious signals broadcast to maximum effect, much less looking for a infra-signal that wou;d be like a specialized searchlight aimed for a few days at our solar system and then moved by it's owners to the next star, hoping someone will see it....
It's a species perception thing, as to what would be an "obvious" signal.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well godddamn! Very cool. Good links there- thanks! Hmmm....I think the article I read concerning the idea was from about 2000 -which is when all those links are from- I wonder how they've fared after six years?
I also read somewhere where a pulsar or quasar could concievably be modified by an advanced species to carry a signal (or already does, but we're too primitave to see it as a signal).
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Those tanks coulud easily be for aquatic Federation crewmembers- a couple of years back, I was reading an intresting article on the possibility of sentient lifeforms originating in a deep-sea environment.
Xindi?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
But (and I could be totally imagining this) weren't the Xindi-Aquatics the last of the Xindi species to be recognised as such by the others, or something like that?
Either way, the Xindi-Aquatics are problematic as an example, because we don't know how much of their tech was developed by themselves, and how much by the other species. We've seen that the Aquatics have their own ships, which can more than hold their own against Insectoids and Reptilians; we've seen that underwater engineering is obviously advanced, hence the location of the uberProbe construction site on Azati Prime; but how much was down to the Aquatics themselves, and how much were they given a helping hand/paw/claw/mandible by the others?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, an inteligent aquatic-based lifeform would be far more suited to the zero-G of space, so if one of the other races shared tech, the aquatics would have been ideally suited to a space-based life- possibly starting out as technicians and zero-G laborors and working their way up the social ladder...
Or they pioneer the theory end of the technology and use the others as labor.
Lots of possibilities with the Xindi co-op- including, of course, that all of them were created specifically to fill their environmental niches.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
For all we know the Enterprise-D had Xindi-Aquatics onboard...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
IF the "D" really had such facilities, they would have been used for those (stupid-looking) fish-ambassadors (the ones Luwaxana revealed were going to blow up whatever conference they were all traveling to).
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
I'm sorry but I can't see whales and dolphins as truly sentient beings. I mean pigs are also one of the smartest animals on earth, but I have yet to see pig crew members(besides Tellarites of course.)
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Since when are pigs "one of the smartest" species?
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Since I read it on wikipedia Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Sentient ≠ intelligent.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
...and tasty!
Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
God but I love bacon
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Talk about relishing your own crew...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Who better in an escape pod with limited rations...
Set your phaser on barbeque!
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
You are going to hell. No wait. Southern Florida. Sorry. I get them confused sometimes.
No, but that actually would be an interesting, or possibly compelling science fiction idea. Taking dolphins or some equivalently "intelligent" species, and having our very humano-utopian Trek socialists trying to wrap their brains around the cetacean value system. I mean, it could be that dolphins (or orcas or whatever) might be interested in exploring the depths of space or whatever provided there was ample tuna/mackerel to be had. It would be interesting to see how the cultures clashed and the abstract, dry and scientific thinking of SF might clash with these potential crew member's ideals. Like a REAL culture clash, not just barely tolerating Klingon bruskness or Vulcan dispassion, but like a fundamental interspecial difference. Not tolerance, and "ha, ha, silly Flipper, would you do it for a scooby-fish?", but actual understanding and cooperation (and in a darker, DS9 sort of mood, potential manupulation).
Also, (as previously mentioned) I always figured that the superiority of Xindi aquatic engineering might be chalked up to the superior IDF and structural enhancements their medium of choice would require.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
If there was SUCH a fundamental difference - one would imagine they wouldn't join Starfleet out of principle. Like the Romulans.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
And the principle under which Romulans don't join Starfleet, what would that be? "Starfleet doesn't sneak around?"
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Starfleet has a strict limit on the number of times their officers can arch their eyebrows in indignation, and Spock usually eats that up in the first few weeks of the year, so...
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
Tell them to shave their eyebrows then and get over it.
Posted by tricky (Member # 1402) on :
Said the Governor of Khitomer, just before the shields fell....
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: And the principle under which Romulans don't join Starfleet, what would that be? "Starfleet doesn't sneak around?"
Obviously it's not so black and white otherwise they'd be friends long ago. I'm sure there are key issues probably in reguards to obtaining space and how to deal with other races that they'd differ over fundamentally.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
[and a note for our less intelligent readers *in a stage whisper* its a joke]
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Cute. (Not!)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Tasty! I want me some dolphin flipper udon!
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
That is sick... the article I mean. As for the udon... I've seen Filipinos eat dog before so that's more disturbing to me.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Anything with noodles, baby!
OKay, not anything: I'll live just fine without ever eating Miso soup or any tofu product ever again.
Tofu is as close as we should allow our society to Soylent Green. Possibly it is people: I've noticed a lack of stories concerning the dead from that tsunami from last year...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Ew! Jason, I order you to desist and go get laid or something!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Better watch out for Chicken Flu...
oh laid laid... Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Ew! Jason, I order you to desist and go get laid or something!
Sir! YES SIR! Searching for pussy NOW, SIR!
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
Good lad.
Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
quote:That is sick... the article I mean. As for the udon... I've seen Filipinos eat dog before so that's more disturbing to me.
Well, by YOUR standards its disturbing. By the Hindus', we're eating holy hamburgers, here. Humans are strange animals. We'll eat tons of things but once we name them (pets) or find a different use for them (dogs, horses) then it becomes disgusting to eat them. I'm sure it turns somebody's stomach to see someone eating a cute widdle lamb...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think it's more of a meat/gristle ratio that keeps cats and dogs off the mainstream menu.
Horse is really really gamey. They flavor it with all kinds of additives just to get dogs to eat it (and yes kiddies, Horse is called "beef" in pet food).
Compare that with great foods that are not pets but not generally eaten by westerners, (squid, eel, ostrich etc.) and you'll see that there's alot of meatier animals for mass consumption. ...and it's not as though we eat a lot of edible other things that are not pets either (rattlesnake is very good, as is aligator tail).
Which beings us back to Dolphins- if no one is eating them (and I've never heard of anyone dong so in any culture, regardless of desperation) they must really taste like shit. Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
They seem like they would be kind of...I don't know...rubbery, or something.
Why are we talking about this again?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: (rattlesnake is very good, as is aligator tail).
Croc is nice, so is Emu, Kangaroo and Wallaby.
I also like venison, ostrich and rabbit.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: They seem like they would be kind of...I don't know...rubbery, or something.
Why are we talking about this again?
Mabye it's their coloring- very squid-like on the outside, but I think it's more red and meaty like tuna.
We're talking about this because I want a dolphin roll with wasabi and ginger and as a break from that whole "abortion thread". Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
Don't eat me with your wasabi and dolphin!
They look like there's quite a lot of meat on them. Know any Japanese or Icelandic fishermen?
Andrew - I don't know about crocodiles, but vennison is nice! Has anybody tried veal? I would, but I feel guilty just looking at it on a menu. Same with fois grois (sp? - you know, goose liver pate). Are my morals keeping me from a good meal?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Veal is []allright[/i]- I've only had it done parmisian style, and frankly, I prefer chicken.
There's lots of bizarre stuff available here that I've not tried- curry goat, ox tail, (thosae are mostly Jamacian dishes). Rabbit sound worth trying, as does deer (not being from the north, it's not available here), but shit like oposum or squirrel is just...wrong.
I've eaten chocolate-covered grasshoppers before- really very good. Sorta like nestle's crunch meets chocolat-covered popcorn.
Anyone eaten turtle?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Don't you DARE eat turtle - all turtle species are endangered.
Rabbit and Venison are not so 'unusual' to eat - just go to a nice restraunt and they will often serve it very well prepared... I love rabbit.
I wouldn't eat Froi Grois as I was looking in a book one day and one very small portion of Froi Grois has the fat equivalent of like 10 bags of chips - or something crazy like that.
I've eaten black ants... but they were by mistake - I left a biscuit on a fridge once - this was when I was like 7 and I remembered about it later - and of course the ants had found it - and I reached up and popped it in my mouth and it was like... uhhh uhhhhhhh uhhhhhhhh! very sharp acidic taste I ran inside the house and got the tomato sauce and started swigging it down to eliminate the taste!! Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Eat some deep-fried tortilla chips and guacamole. Might as well inject fat directly into your arteries.
Damn tasty though!
What do yuo mean turtles are endangered? People have Box and Snapping turtles as pets here...occasionally, you'll see their run over shells roadside when driving across state.
I say we have a race between tortise and hare: which one can I wok up fastest... I'm thinking barbeque rabbit and teriaki turtle. Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
Yeah, turtles are not endangered here. They're everywhere.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK sorry I think what I read must refer to all open-sea turtles. Green turtle, loggerhead turtle etc.
BTW, just got back from dinner - had venison! BEAUTIFUL!
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I've had turtle soup, and it was truthfully not much different in taste from ordinary chicken soup to me.
I tried rabbit once, too, but found it to be a bit stringy.
What I did like a lot though was bear meat, though it too was kind of gamey.
So, yeah, uh, dolphins...
...you know, Star Trek, people?????
-MMoM Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Is it ethical to eat replicated human meat?
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
That's an interesting concept. Although I'd imagine that the replicators would be hardwired to not replicate meat from any member races of the UFP...
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Wait a minute... Don't eat turtle if it's endangered, but veal is A+ #1 awesome? So, the theory here is that it doesn't matter how you treat an animal, so long as there are plenty more where it came from?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think he's just against eating endangered sea animals. I foloow Snay's philosiphy: anything you can bag with your car is fair game and good eatin!
quote:Originally posted by Topher: That's an interesting concept. Although I'd imagine that the replicators would be hardwired to not replicate meat from any member races of the UFP...
I brought this up when we were discussing transporters as weapons: Guys like the Romulans would likely just knock out an opposing ship's shields, reduce the crew to their component protien patterns and have a nice steak dinner at their enemies expense.
Practical, deadly and tasty!.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Bringing this back with a new bit of Dolphinowledge: the apparently have, and recognize names.
The scientists stop well short of calling it a language, of course, but it's interesting to know that dolphins create and recognize whistles and clicks that will correspond to a specific creature.
Mark <--click click bloody click pancakes!
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I already weird out my coworkers by swearing in Firefly Chinese. I don't need to add Dolphin.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
I heard that Usul no longer needs the weirding module.
I think most animals recognize individuals, and even dogs recognize their (admittedly human bestowed) names. What's interesting to me is that the study implied that two dolphins can use names to talk about another dolphin not directly involved. Though won't we all be disappointed if the first phrase translated is "click-whistle-whistle-beep is such a brownnose!"?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Biiig deal- Wasps (with a brain the size of a pin-head) can recognise other wasps they know on sight- and will always kill any they dont know.
Plus they- like many insects use chemical language that can last months.
It's an amazing world of communication out there, but it's not at all what we consider "language".
Good for theory on how something alien may communicate though- lets see Hoshi run pheremone and sweat salts through the 'ol Universal Translator.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
quote:Originally posted by bX: I heard that Usul no longer needs the weirding module.
Hug!
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by bX: ...and even dogs recognize their (admittedly human bestowed) names.
Well, sort of. The recognise them in a "that sound means something that I should pay attention to" sort of way, not a "I am Rover, that is my name" way.
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Friends of mine had a dog. They never got around to naming the dog, they simply called him "Puppy." Eventually this became the dog's name.
The dog would respond to anything sounding like "Puppy," such as "Dummy," "Ugly," etc...
Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: It's an amazing world of communication out there, but it's not at all what we consider "language".
Good for theory on how something alien may communicate though- lets see Hoshi run pheremone and sweat salts through the 'ol Universal Translator.
Oddly enough, that's one thing Red Dwarf did better than Star Trek in at least one instance. Cat had some books that you had to sniff to read.
B.J.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"What's interesting to me is that the study implied that two dolphins can use names to talk about another dolphin not directly involved."
Not only that, but the fact that they assign the names themselves. I mean, it would be one thing to teach a group of dolphins that "a-a-a-aa-a" = dolphin #1, while "a-a-a-a-aa" = dolphin #2. But the fascinating thing about this is the idea that they already started naming each other all on their own.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Whatever- they cut the tuna nicely.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
Congratulations, your eternal afterlife now entails hundreds of their sharp little teeth and your naughty areas. Salt water.
It is cool that they come up with the names themselves. I imagine these might be somehow descruptive of the individual to whom they refer. "Long nose", "Deep warble", "Mackarel breath" that sort of thing. With regards to a larger language or communication, I would suspect that each pod would tend to have its own dialect and that different families might have different levels of sophistication and abstraction.
Have you ever had a conversation with someone with whom you do not share a spoken language or with only a limited grasp? There was this older Dutch guy in Paris and we were trying to figure out the network topography where we were staying. His English was much better than my Dutch, but my Dutch is none so that's not saying anything. We could both get by in French, but he didn't know shit about computers. It was interesting how much we were able to communicate with a common frame of reference and similar goals. Of course it probably helped being the same species.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I've found that many parts of understanding between people are non-verbal- as example, I have no major difficulties dealing with a deaf man that frequents my work (most credit to him and his experience communicating with hearing people, of course). If he were wearing a mask, I dount I'd grasp half of what he was trying to communicate.
A lot of the underlying meaning to what we want expressed is visual body language- doubtless the same is true (or far moreso) in the animal kingdom. Dolphins may have diffrent "inflections" with diffrent visual cues, just as we have so many maenings for "fuck".
People are even adept at non-verbal language with other species we're familliar with: everyone knows a mean dog from a nice one without it having to wag it's tail or growl at you.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I think the definition of language is getting slightly twisted here, not that I can provide a nontwisted one. But an interpretation of signs does not by itself constitute language. Something is being communicated when a piece of meat rots, but that doesn't mean that the meat is communicating, if you see my meaning.
Anyway, as far as the dolphins go, I think we always need to be careful when we go about assigning content to signals such as these. For this to constitute a language, at least in my (incredibly uneducated, I need to point out) opinion, they would need to be located in some larger symbological context. Like, say I snap my fingers three times and we all agree that three fingersnaps represents Jason. That doesn't mean that we have invented a language of fingersnaps.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That's four snaps in a "Z" formation, pallie.
Prahaps it's best to consider this as a "sub-language" as abstract concepts dont seem to be possible for our tasty Dolphin friends, nor are sentence/language structures aparant.
Hmmm....I wonder how much of the dstinction in "clicks" is vibrational the way their echolocation is? The "language" might have started out as a kind of "Marco/Polo" game to give other pod members their health status and relative position in poor visibility conditions or as a predator warning.
Or they could be debating the length of the Defiant and cheering on their favorite Xini race. Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
(A language [which is a [[possibly infinite]] set of strings, each composed of words [[which are formed from morphemes, which are in turn formed from symbols [[[from a finite collection [[[[called an alphabet]]]]]]], and together make up a lexicon]] according to certain syntactical production rules [[which define a grammar, and in natural languages are notoriously ambiguous]]] spoken by just one $individual is still a language, though its use for communication would be near-zero.)
((Whether the alphabet consists of letters, numbers, beeps, smells, or clicks is neither here nor there, really, so long as those constituents can be parsed.))
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So...do Dolphins string these supposed "click-words" together or are they just proper-name identifiers? The definition seems a bit shakey- if I had a seperate word for everything, I should be able to get away with saying that word and gesturing to the object in question, still making myself clear (though abstractions would be difficult to convey).
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
The definition itself applies better to formal languages than to natural ones, but if you just had seperate "words" for everything, then you wouldn't have a language, but instead an unexpressive and structureless set of (at best) very weakly related symbols, whereas the semantics of words in (sentences of) an actual language are arbitrary (ie. different meanings are mapped onto different concepts by different groups of speakers in different contexts) and much more delineated through the language's syntax. You also couldn't gesture to every object in your set (since, as you say, a lot of them would be abstract), so someone who didn't know each and every word in your set in terms of, say, English would have no real way of understanding you (as there would basically be ambiguities everywhere).
(Dolphins are apparently stuck at that level absent of a demonstrated grammar in their communication [sophisticated as it may be], with pre-arranged sonic patterns denoting concepts in their habitat, but their brain characteristics certainly don't seem to rule out the capacity to develop a language [even if we don't know what exactly is required for it beyond a high brain mass/body mass ratio].)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye they just have a million designations for "swim" "eat" and "mate"....mabye one for "shark!" Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
So, call #1 is "Look out- it's an eagle!" Call #2 is "Look out- it's a lepoard!"
and call #3 is...er.."Holy Shit! A Flying Lepoard!"
Monkeys suck: they spread disease to us (okay, mainly by us stupidly eating them, but still) and generally make a lot of crap and racket. Plus, anything that throws it's own fecees should die. I'd run for office on a "Kill all the monkeys" platform, but it'd be sure to be misinterperted as a bigotry thing and then I'd be supported by inbred yokels no better than monkeys themselves...
Pidgeons and Parrots should also be eliminated as they're useless, or possibly fed to endangered species that contribute to the ecosystem.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I guess they don't care how many leopards or how many eagles. So three 'hacks' don't mean three eagles?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I dont think more tan one "hack" would do anythng except give away the monkey's exact position for a circling eagle.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
"Plus, anything that throws its own feces should die."
Like small children.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...they spread disease...and generally make a lot of crap and racket."
How is that not the same as people? (Particularly, as Shik says, children.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That's where being the dominant lifeform on the planet comes in- we make the rules and are exempt from them.
Besides, I've never seen a child throw it's fecees. Ever.
Hmm...unlike children, monkeys wont grow out of such behavior. (Adult humans that throw their own fecees should also be put to death- it's just not proper.)
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
"That's where being the dominant lifeform on the planet comes in- we make the rules and are exempt from them."
And it's exactly that sort of thinking for the past 10,000 years that's gotten us to the situation we're in right now.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Of course- but dont think I'm being serious abour wiping out species.
Here in Florida we've had six serious alligator attacks this year and three deaths from them. The obvious issue is humans encroaching on animal's territory via development (and 500 people move to South Florida each week), but just an hor ago, while channel surfing, I watched some bozos on FOXNews going on about how the problem is really that liberals wont allow hunters to kill off all the "surplus" alligators and that's why people are getting eaten.
"Surplus gators"
Fucking moron....worse yet, alligators were already once hunted into near extinction and have only got off the endangered species list through twenty five years of careful conservation.
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) the possibility of formal relations as equal beings. And as a result, wouldna ya know it, turns out the cetaceans make pretty dern good starship navigators...better than going blind looking at those Medusan fellows anyway. So the dolphins, being smaller and easier to transport have a go at it. The whales, on the other hand, remembering the way the humans piloted ships in Trek IV, graciously declined the offer. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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