From another topic discussing "The Arsenal of Freedom":
quote:It also brings up the notion of weither slavaging alien tech constutes a Prime Directive offense. If not, Sarfleet really should have seized that world before anyone else got their hands on all the goodies left behind and started making gigantic L'Eggs robots.
I can think of many opportunities Starfleet has encountered or (possibly) came into posession of advanced alien technology that should have given them a large step forward.
For example: The Fesarius. In TOS "Corbomite Manuver" the Enterprise is face to face with a huge, Huge, HUGE spaceship that, it turns out, is ran by remote control from a much smaller ship piloted by an even smaller man.
My question is, whatever happened to that technology? Surely some agreement could be made with Balok and The First Federation (if it even existed) wherein an exchange of tech could result.
Did Starfleet miss this opportunity? Did they use some of this tech in consctruction of the NCC-1701D?
What other missed or forgotten opportunities have you noticed in Star Trek?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Biig obvious stuff is the Planetkiller from TOS, all the debris from the two Borg ships (that would have had to have been cleared from Earth's orbit anyway), the dozens of battlefields of the Dominion War (and we already speculated that the Scimitar may have been such a salvage op) and the Dyson Sphere (though for all we know, there could have still been billions of sentients living there when the Enterprise stumbled in- some species like hard radiation).
Lots of reverse-engineering to be had.
You'd think that Starfleet would have feelers out for anything Iconian (as their tech seems to hold up niely for thousands of years)...heck the Promellian "boobytrap" tech would have been a huge asset during the Dominion War.
Any other examples spring to mind?
Posted by Neutrino 123 (Member # 1327) on :
Well, for TNG and later, there is no reason to assume that Starfleet didn't aquire additional technology, but salvaging and implementing advanced technology from a completely unknown culture could be a time-conuming process.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
Minor nit: the Promellian one was the battlecruiser, the booby trap was made by their enemies IIRC (can't remember their name, though).
I agree, the Dyson sphere was one hell of a wasted opportunity.
What else? Well, all those times they've used the transporter to cure some disease and then completely forgot about it thereafter (judging by later episodes) - not necessarily alien tech, but...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
yeah, I forgot the Promellian's enemy too. Small loss.
Another wasted tech was the shielding Dr. Crusher used in (the awful) Descent pt. 2
Those "hoodini" mines would be a great asset if they could be developed for in-system defense.
What about that B.E.M. kid that was screwing around with Riker's head? Any holodeck that can read a person's mind would be very useful in information extraction (if used well, obviously).
Hur'Q technology seemes pretty advanced as well.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Uh, the shield Crusher implemented in that episode was a reuse of a technology introduced in a previous episode.
And I do believe that "metaphasic shields" became a not uncommon buzzword after that.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
V'ger and its "data storage" processing system. Not to mention whatever happened to the Idecker.
The Talosians. Could be quite useful as spies and interrogators.
The Kelvans...you'd think that Starfleet would have those little boxes that turns you into geometry.
The eye of time from "City On the Edge of Forever"
All that android tech from Mudd and from Nurse Chapel's X-fiance. Unless you want to excuse it as the foundation of Soong.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
It seems to me that there's a slight difficulty in studying V'Ger after the events of the film, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
You mean that whole "popping out of reality in a puff of irrationality" thing?
I would have liked some post-TOS on the Melkotians and Fabrini, as well. And the Preserver obelisk on Paradise.
From the contemporary era, the last Portal of the T'Kon Empire is still around, as is the Edo "God", the Aldeasns seemed pretty danged advanced, Jameson's illicit de-aging drug from Cerebus II seemed to work fine if one doesn't overdose. You'd think people like Admiral Haftel and Commander Maddox would have been all over the subterranean hideout on Omicron Theta. There are a wole bunch of Husnok worlds out there that presumably have no one left to care if anyone comes in and cleans them out. It would have been nice if we'd secured relations with Hugh and his Borg buddies. I'm sure they had at least some remnamts of Borg technical knowledge.
There's a bunch of stuff from DS9 and Voyager, but what stands out most in my head is those little forearm thingies the Hunters of Tosk wore that "grabed" phaser beams and pulled them out of line. Not to mention their hellacious weapons, and scanning systems that could detect a shrouded entity. Which reminds me also of the impromptu personal shield generator Worf whipped up out of a commbadge. That last isn't an example of passed-up tech, per se, but more a "so where is it?" problem. Seems to be an easy enough ting to make, so where are the personal shield generators for away teams or combat forces?
--Jonah
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Some of the things listed (or even most) don't seem to lend themselves to TV episodes, though. Like, take all the various Borg stuff left lying around. Who says it doesn't constitute the most popular research project around? And so what if it did? Does that mean next week they should be out flying around in cubes?
(Actually, as regards the Borg and their ubicomp design methods, plus the body-vaporization thing, I'd expect even their trash would have enough processing cycles available to make reverse engineering exciting.)
((Also, I just watched that Tosk episode, and the hunters' bracers didn't do any phaser-bending. They just happened to put them in the path of the occasional beam, Wonder Woman style. And their weapons weren't all that special, though they did, OK, blow up Odo's door.))
The real problem, I guess, is that beyond the specifics needed for the setting, lots of science fiction tends to be very conservative. Get what you need for your story and then nothing ever changes again. Which is unrealistic and often dull, but on the other hand human beings with Star Trek technology would probably rapidly cease to lead lives recognizable to us in the audience.
But anyway, for a lot of this stuff, I don't see why you wouldn't assume it was being studied somewhere.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Didn't the Cytherians tell the Enterprise all sorts of nifty crap? Like, how to jump your starship half way across the galaxy in thirty seconds or your money back?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Uh, the shield Crusher implemented in that episode was a reuse of a technology introduced in a previous episode.
And I do believe that "metaphasic shields" became a not uncommon buzzword after that.
I know it was a re-use then, but I dont recall ever hearing it after.
Though, I suppose it may have become the starfleet standard, and was referred to only as "shields" after that.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: The Kelvans...you'd think that Starfleet would have those little boxes that turns you into geometry.
Yes, I can just see Starfleet officers running around, shooting people and turning them into cubes, possibly while also shouting "yee-haw".
Besides, they already have guns that can knock people out, burn things, and kill with or without leaving a body. Turning them into cubes just doesn't seem an overly necessary addition.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye they already do that- it would explain those large octagon cargo containers that show up in every series...each could be a mini-graveyard.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
I think that a lot of the tech discovered is simply not able to have a lasting effect. Take most of the weapons, shields, draining whatsits, etc. found over they years. More often than not, it's our heroes who find a way to defeat the technology and escape its wrath, usually within the confines of the episode itself! We have to believe that any potential enemies we run into would have some heroes of their own to work around lots of the "new" stuff anyone would throw at them, and implement the solution across their forces. Take the always-implied cold war of cloaking technology and the continuing efforts to overcome the latest one, and build a better one.
Mark
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Uh, the shield Crusher implemented in that episode was a reuse of a technology introduced in a previous episode.
And I do believe that "metaphasic shields" became a not uncommon buzzword after that.
I know it was a re-use then, but I dont recall ever hearing it after.
Though, I suppose it may have become the starfleet standard, and was referred to only as "shields" after that.
That's more or less the impression I got, as it didn't require such a huge modification to standard shield generators. BTW, does anyone recall if they were mentioned on VOY later?
Posted by HerbShrump (Member # 1230) on :
Couldn't the Medusans work out an arrangement with Data or the androids from "I-Mudd" and develop mobile containment systems? This way the best navigators in the Federation could actually navigate and be contributing members of society.
Personal shields would be nice.
I had an idea for a "Strange New Worlds" story that dealt with Dr. Soon and his wife spending time with the androids from "I-Mudd" and gaining knowledge for his work on Data.
I wouldn't count stuff from the end of the Dominon War as lost tech opportunities. We've not seen much of what Starfleet and the Federation is like after the war. Just one movie and that didn't really lend itself to follow up on the events after the war.
Plenty of alternate forms of propulsion to use.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
quote:Originally posted by WizArtist II: The Kelvans...you'd think that Starfleet would have those little boxes that turns you into geometry.
Yes, I can just see Starfleet officers running around, shooting people and turning them into cubes, possibly while also shouting "yee-haw".
Yeehaw... and here's Psy's new pix. Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
Voyager implements the metaphasic program in the Jeri Taylor novel Mosaic, but I don't think they employed it in the show itself.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Acquiring technology does not conflict with the Prime Directive in any way� but I would have to make some notes to the technology mentioned so far (aside from TOS as I�m not as well versed).
TNG-The Arsenal of Freedom, It was difficult for the Enterprise to defeat� but it was all pretty common tech- cloaking and replication- it actually wasn�t all that great, they defeated it many times over- what really made it a powerful weapon was that the planetary power source that allowed the system to make a new weapon after the last one was defeated.
Iconian Tech- Would be very cool to have, but it�s not exactly like they encountered it and just overlooked trying to figure it out, it had to be destroyed before it fell into Romulan or Dominion hands.
TNG - Booby Trap" � The Menthar�s technology that trapped the Promellian battle cruiser and the Enterprise D was not all that amazing, and it does assume that you know where your enemy will be well ahead of time. One could just use cloaked mines to blow the ship up and be done with it rather than trap them so they can face a slow death or figure their way out of it.
The Dyson�s Sphere. I do not think this was a �wasted opportunity�. They did state that science ships would be deployed to study it� The internal Earth-like surface was unstable, but they could have used the Sphere� used it as a starbase, built on the exterior surface. Even after the star inside cools/expands/dies, it could probably be used. That was at the end of TNG- and we�ve not really been back to that part of the Beta Quadrant since, so I�d like to think something is going on there.
V�ger- after it merged with Decker it vanished. Its systems could not be studied further.
Edo God- I�m not sure the Edo God would respond well to being poked and prodded for secrets.
Anti-aging drug- perhaps it had other problems we were not aware of.
Husnock- they were wished away- I ponder everything about them was included in that.
Hunter phaser absorbing things- Perhaps this is where you�d get into not a prime directive problem, but just a �You can�t just outright steal their tech� problem.
WizArtist II, Did you make the origami?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Nice one Shakky, good to see a reasoned analysis of many of the opportunities suggested. One other obstacle to studying the Hunters' tech - they were from the GQ after all, and even carried Jem'Hadar weapons (although that wasn't what they were "meant" to be at the time, it can be implied since they used the same props).
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by machf: That's more or less the impression I got, as it didn't require such a huge modification to standard shield generators. BTW, does anyone recall if they were mentioned on VOY later?
The shields were used less than 5 episodes later in Decent part 2 to allow the Enterprise to hide in a star. I believe they were also used in the first epsode of season 7 of DS9 that I can't remember the name of that involved Worf, Bashir, O'Brien and Quark going to destroy a Dominion ship-yard.
(The shields do ignore the fact that starships never used to have a problem hiding in stars, such as in "Redemption II" and "I, Borg", but I'm sure someone can come up with an excuse for them.)
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
What was actually different about the sun-proof shields anyway? Nothing that would require re-fitting or replacing the shield generators, based on how quickly Crusher implemented the changes in "Descent, part 2." So it would be, what, a change to field geometry, amplitude/frequency/whatever, and power flow? So how do we know such stronger shields don't become more commonplace, but the reason they're not much better against phasers/torpedoes is because the attacking weapons can be just as easily modified to counter the effect. Maybe the shield mod is ONLY really better at standing direct immersion in a star, so remains a little-used technique?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Intresting that the magic shields still do dick in some (plot device) nebulas though...
While I can see the Metaphasic Shielding not being a match for new weapons forms (new phasers, polaron beams, quantum torpedos, etc.) it would be a huge technological leap. Consider that a star's power could now be directly tapped for energy.
From a strategic P.O.V., it means that all the major powers would have to deploy agreat many orbital defenses around their stars (in light of that Founder's attempted destruction of the Bajoran star and the trick Martok pullued to destroy the Dominion shipyards).
As to the Husnok, I tend to think all their shit is still around, even if they aren't: if Uxbridge was to destroy all their stuff along with them, he would likely have imperilled many innocent races (even more)....loss of containment frm energy generators as only one example. It makes for an intresting plot to explore- the power vaccum from ther sudden extinction.
Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
Maybe Uxbridge himself could be asked for information. Sort of a "you owe all sentient life a little favor for your heinous crime" deal.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: One other obstacle to studying the Hunters' tech - they were from the GQ after all, and even carried Jem'Hadar weapons (although that wasn't what they were "meant" to be at the time, it can be implied since they used the same props).
Granted on the weapons. But it was another year-and-a-half before the Jem'Hadar made their first appearance (ha!) in their eponymous episode. You would think Starfleet would take advantage of that time to study the weapons, and that when we encountered the Jem'Hadar, we would have had some new personal defences in production.
As for their being GQ, yes, I know that. But there were some dead Hunters left on DS9 after the Hunter ship resumed pursuit of Tosk. There ya go.
--Jonah
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
The Hunters were not meant to be part of the Dominion initially, but ont he writing staff it was assumed to be so. In DS9's "Broken Link" (Odo is humanized), the Jem'Hadar take over the Defiant and pilot it to the Founders' new homeworld. An early draft saw a Hunter at the conn, tying both the species and their pilot ability back into the franchise.
Looking back at an earlier post, the Hunters' phaser blocking tech didn't BEND the beams to them... They just absorbed 'em, at least in the VFX.
Mark
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I remember the sequence on the Promenade very well. We had several shots of Hunters moving their arms to block a few short bursts. Then, as Kira is registering fear and amazement, the Hunter leader takes a steady blast on his arm guard, holds it for a beat, then pulls the phaser beam off to the side, and shoots back, blowing up the kiosk Kira and Odo were hiding behind.
But I'll dig the tape out of storage and watch it tomorrow, just to make sure.
--Jonah
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Please do. Quatloos on standby.
Mark
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by dbutler1986: Maybe Uxbridge himself could be asked for information. Sort of a "you owe all sentient life a little favor for your heinous crime" deal.
Sure- unless questions get him....angry. Then it's all some (seemingly) harmless old man crying about how he was just so mad and wiped then all out. For all we know, the Hussnok had a real greivence with those bozo colonists (at least as much as the Gorn did back on Cestus 3).
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Kira actually shot the Hunter in the abdomen, and after Sisko ordered phasers to be set to level 6- and he was still uninjured... though he paused a second, before shooting at the door to security, not at a kiosk, but the door really exploded which Kira and Odo were near. After finding Tosk he called the hunt over and their vessel transported their other people back, and I would assume their fallen injured members too (I do not presume that the Hunters were dead, as the crew were only on lower stun settings when they were taken out), and even level six did not kill/stun their lead hunter.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
"Head Hunter". Hah!
You're right about the security door. But after O'Brien stunned the leader, at one point, they got the jump on a group of Hunters who had gathered below their access tunnel. Since Tosk shot them with their own wepons, and they hd big, burned, and bleeding wounds, and since when Tosk left moments later, the Hunter ship pursued immediately, I though it could be argued that they left their dead behind.
--Jonah
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
So, do I win..?
Mark
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Ah, indeed, I should have scrolled through the episode more, but there is a correction... "Leader of the Hunters" *L* and two of his men were indeed shot with one of their own weapons... and went down, and were smoking too as they lay there. O'Brien gets Tosk back to his ship... Tosk leaves, but the Hunter vessel does not persue, it cuts to O'Brien getting chewed out in Sisko's office- So, mayhaps they remained behind to collect their people and weapons- it would be the only reason they did not give chase.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
Unless they went to Quarks and got deeply involved in a game of dabbo.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Or were all incapcitated or even dead. After all, we never saw more than three at a time... And their ship never docked, so its size was not established. In the scene where Tosk finally flees the station, his tiny vessel may well be interpreted to be over half the length of the Hunter one.
(And of course, the Hunter/Zalkonian/Agent-Claiming-to-be-Working-for-Ktarians ship appears as a tiny shuttlecraft in VOY "Jetrel"...)
It doesn't sound as if Sisko in the dressing-down would think the Hunters were killed, though. And the "all three stunned by Tosk" theory explains the lack of chase just as well. Plus it explains what happened to the Hunter ship afterwards.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
The Hunter's ship does appear much larger than the Defiant I feel, and it easily took on DS9, so I feel it would hold more than just a shuttle
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
May be all guns and engines, with enough room left over for three Great Reptilian Hunters, and a Tosk fridge for their trophy. I imagine possibly a shuttle hangar for Tosks craft, if they provided it. If he acquired it through other means as part of the track... *shrug*
And no, Mark, you haven't won until I see for myself the showdown on the Promenade.
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Regarding tech, the Hunters' trick of reversing the station's polarity (rendering then useless) was definitely something Starfleet would have been intrested in. If Geberations was good for anything, it's showing how even a tiny ship can take out a battleship if the shields can be circumvented.
Looking at Tosk's ship while docked, I'd guess it's about 35-40 meters long. It takes up quite a lot of the berth that will eventually house the Defiant. Good damn episode. I just re-watched it after so much banter regarding it: and no, I saw no beams curve into the armband disipators.
Techwise, the armband and the armor (assuing that's what allows the Hunters to stand up to phaser fire) would have been a huge boon to back-engineer...and why I dount that the Hunters left any teh/corpses behind.
Though the lead Hunter was definitely dead.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I am not saying the phaser beams turned aside to hit the armguards. I'm saying at least one Hunter (the leader, if I recall correctly) caught one beam on his armguard and -- with the beam still steady -- moved his arm off to the side, and the phaser beam stayed stuck to the armguard. It was maybe a two-second shot.And that's why I need to go back and re-watch the ep.
--Jonah
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I don't have a DVD drive, so no images, but I put the episode in to see what the deal was, and it breaks down like this: the hunters come through the wormhole, don't respond to hails, scan the station, and then use some sort of "radiation I've never seen before" to "reverse the polarity" of the shields. (Oh man, surprising!) This lets them beam aboard.
Then the shootout happens. They block shots, or perhaps absorb is the better word, but they never drag one around with them. I think you might be thinking of when they move their arm quickly to intercept.
Incidentally, Kira shoots one in the soldier, and he stumbles but then shrugs it off. All the others go down after being shot. (I think this is the first time she uses a phaser in the show, so perhaps she didn't have it turned up high enough.)
During Tosk's escape, he does catch the leader in the chest with one of the hunter's rifles, and oddly the two guys with him fall over too. There's lots of smoke, and I don't imagine the weapon, if it even has a stun setting, would be set to it, but we don't actually know if he's dead.
Nobody mentions what happens to the hunters or their ship, but it's gone in the last shot of the station.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Which may only mean Starfleet Intelligence swooped in, grabbed everything, and scrammed before the next scene. *chuckle* Thanks for the running commentary, Solly. I'm still going to dig my old video tape out of whichever box it's in and watch the ep anyway, just because after all this discussion, I really want to see it now... and to see the scene I'm misremembering. I hate being wrong.
And even if we didn't see any useful) armour or energy-absorbing bits of kit, I would have thought we at least might see the "mass-production" version of Worf's MacGyvered shield generatior during the Dominion War. But then, maybe Starfleet R&D hadn't been able to figure out how to make them effective against those nasty Jem'Hadar blasters...
--Jonah
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I have an idea Kira tried to use a Starfleet phaser again Tahna (not that one) while on the Runabout in the second or third episode, but I can't remember if she actually did use it.
quote:Originally posted by Shakaar: The Hunter's ship does appear much larger than the Defiant I feel, and it easily took on DS9, so I feel it would hold more than just a shuttle
This is early first season DS9 though. We have no idea of the relative power of the station. In fact, from what I recall the only idea we get towards how powerful the station is before the refit is in the third season "Visionary", where Sisko mentions that he has 50 (?) photon torpedoes locked on the Romulan Warbird. At this point, a Miranda-class might be more powerful. (Plus there's also the crew's relative inexperience with Gamma quadrant technology. If the Hunters had appeared in, say, season 5, there's every chance Dax would have recognised the radiation.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Every chance the station would have blown the Hunter's ship to hell too, once the Hunters first fired. The overall tolerance level for bullshit dropped a bit by fifth season. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, actually, they never shoot at each other at all. The hunters do their trick that lets them beam through, but O'Brien trots out the old polarity reversal and not "our shields are down." So for all we know it was only good for transporter beams. Nothing is said about the ship's weapons, or whether the station would be able to damage or destroy it, and with what ease.
Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
Speaking of the hunters, what about the Tosk ithimherself? I mean, sleeping only 20 mins a day, implanted with nutritious plastifibers throughout itshisher body, so on and so forth. DNA scan at least??
Also, after the whole Bynars-try-to-steal-Ent-D's computer thing, do they keep the upgrades the Bynars gave them? And that ep always irritated me...a society of people dependent on machines that can upgrade the software of the Ent-D didn't have better *hardware*? As I recall they only needed one computer core for their whole planet, yes?
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I can't believe no one has mentioned Pegasus yet. With the ghost-cloak and the crazy black romulan. That combined with the Dauntless' engines combined with Dominion style shake-and-bake shipyards equals galactic domination.
But the weapons (transphasic torps was it?) and flexing ablative armor of "Endgame" was the most atrocious warez dump, that would've evened the odds against Shinzon quite a bit. We're going to assume they have it but were still testing it then, although Janeway seemed to have settled in with her new position rather nicely...
Speaking of weapons, the squad assault disruptor Paris fired into rocks together with Seven and an arms dealer, they were buying that. Paris even had suggestions for improving the thing. That thing in serial production and a Starfleet color scheme (instead of the red and cyan paint IIRC) would've been nice against the Hirogen.
There is at least one augmentation that didn't get countermanded by later episodes; Seven's Borgspawn boosting weapons and shields when fighting the Sphere, those things must've been left in there. I don't think it was a one-shot energy boost but a technical refinement, so that a future duel between Voyager and another Intrepid would've weighed in Voyager's favor.
One question I've wondered for a few years, wouldn't the fastest route out of the galaxy be to go up or down?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: I can't believe no one has mentioned Pegasus yet. With the ghost-cloak and the crazy black romulan. That combined with the Dauntless' engines combined with Dominion style shake-and-bake shipyards equals galactic domination.
"The Pegasus". Commander Sirol. And that pahsing-cloak was developed secretly by Starfleet Intelligence in violation of the treaty of Algeron. That wasn't a case of Our Heroes stumbling across something and never having it show up again.
Incidentally, Picard should have been court-martialled for what he pulled at the end of the episode.
quote: One question I've wondered for a few years, wouldn't the fastest route out of the galaxy be to go up or down?
Well... yeah. But why is your goal to just get out of the galaxy? Unless you're going somewhere in particular, there's not much out there.
--Jonah
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
quote:Originally posted by dbutler1986: And that ep always irritated me...a society of people dependent on machines that can upgrade the software of the Ent-D didn't have better *hardware*? As I recall they only needed one computer core for their whole planet, yes?
The E-D was the largest mobile computer core they had available. And I figure they were using PK-UberZip.exe (from the command line, naturally) for compression.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: But the weapons (transphasic torps was it?) and flexing ablative armor of "Endgame" was the most atrocious warez dump, that would've evened the odds against Shinzon quite a bit. We're going to assume they have it but were still testing it then, although Janeway seemed to have settled in with her new position rather nicely...
I'm of the opinion that Future Janeway did some minor timeline preservation by having all that batman bullshit self destruct after a day or so. Possibly signaled by her own (planned) death.
That would explain why none of that stuff is evident in Nemesis: after all, the Flagship would have all that new crap before anyone else- particularly given their transparant trap/mission to Romulus.
Looking at Nemesis, I think the Federation probably bogarted some Dominion transporter tech- no way they could have transported a whole shuttle, mid-flight, before.
Posted by Vice-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :
quote: Looking at Nemesis, I think the Federation probably bogarted some Dominion transporter tech- no way they could have transported a whole shuttle, mid-flight, before.
Who says the tech heads in the Starfleet Corp of Engineers didn't become creative during the Dominion War... after all DS9's shields held during the Dominion takeover of the station. When Starfleet gets one hell of a stimulus... they tend to react. The Defiant was created due to the Borg Crisis, DS9 got one hell of an upgrade thanks to the demise of the USS Oddyssey, and the Prometheus Class did one hell of a trial-by-fire test during the Dominion War.
As for the USS Voyager technology... well who says all the latest gadgets have to be on the flagship without further research? I'm sure during Nemesis USS Voyager was in some research facility being studied after spending 7 years in the Delta Quad. Studying the computer core would be one of many things Starfleet would be studying... such as what effects would the space in the Delta Quad do to Starfleet ship hulls, the repairs and maintenance Voyager did without Starfleet support facilities for an extended period of time, changes to the internal layout of the ship due to her special circumstances, and so forth. It would take the ship out for about a year at least. Not to mention how Starfleet would end up studying the Ablative Hull Armor in secret to see how easy it would be to implement it fleetwide and the transphasic torpedo.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I just hate all that batman armor crap....and the transexual torpedo is the lamest thing Trek has ever done: it effectivly kills any further tech advances as being "future inspired".
It's a cheap, lame, cop-out way to detroy the Borg, but in many ways, that's all Voyager's last few seasons amounted to.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Looking at Nemesis, I think the Federation probably bogarted some Dominion transporter tech- no way they could have transported a whole shuttle, mid-flight, before.
"D�j� Q" -- Picard: "Beam that shuttle back into its bay!"
Only reason they couldn't was interference from Q.
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hmm....mabye there is a size limitation that was overcome then? There were many other times that beaming the whole shuttle would have been an advantage and ws not used.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Was it the ickle Shuttlepod in Deja Q, or the No-Exterior-mockup shuttle?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I think it was the "bar-o-soap" version.
which would negate my "size limitation" theory..
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
NO INSULT SHUTTLE ohman you dissed Probert BERMAN DIDN'TGETWHATHEWASGOINGFOR damn him arseness!
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Someone change Liam's meds...
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Besides, I think Probert's version looked like ass.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
I like to ponder that after Voyager returned to Earth... all sorts of bells and whistles went off at temporal affairs, and a nice little ship was dispatched, and they came to an agreement that Voyager and the crew could stay, but all the tech had to go. It was all just way over the top- it would be very limited to any future story if they could keep it.
AHA! The greatest overlooked technological advancement!!!! Nanites. It�s something they already have, but seem to have fumbled on severely. Imagine a vessel with trillions upon trillions of them, it would be self aware, it could repair itself, it could repair its crew. But with this, as with any super tech advance you do have story problems if the new tech becomes a solution to every problem.
Self-aware nanites, those that talk to each other and work collectively could kill many stories, but I think they could use them programmed to carry out given tasks, and program them to do something as a group, but to not work as a team, like moving atoms to resurface damaged hull sections. Program them in a similar manner to ants, there is not an organizational structure of communication, but they do all carry out a function that allows the group to get a lot done. I don�t see as great of a story problem in that, in fact, it could help explain how ships are repaired so quickly.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Well speaking of tech that was never used let us not forget Enterprise. I mean what about all that Borg wreckage in the North Pole(never mind all that transpired during the episode.)I mean Starfleet had 200 years to look at that stuff and still weren't ready for the Borg when they finally arrived. Also don't forget that good stuff from the Temporal Cold War(Suliban enhancements, Daniels holographic encyclopedia of future tech, the mysterious timepod, etc.) It appeared to me that even the war was ending, many things still remained in the timeline. Oh and let's not forget the Xindi, who had guns which were powered by larva and their ships which could create subspace vortexes akin to Borg transwarp portals. Don't they become members of the Federation? I don't see any larva powered phasers. Finally there's the wanna-be Death Stars in the Delphic Expanse. Those were quite a feat even by 24th Century standards.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
All the spheres that the spherebuilders created were destroyed, and really their only function was to alter the fabric of space to be more hospitable to their kind- so it's not really of any value to the UFP, even if they could have learned more about it. I think most of the technology of a temporal nature vanishes at one point or another.
Now the Borg is a different story- You'd think that something more could have been discovered of them from the Arctic site, they easily found two drones in the ice right away, and though those two assimilated the research team and perhaps took technology of value, something more probably could have been found... So they have at least some knowledge of the Borg. At the time they didn't know they were "Borg" though, and there was no visual evidence of what a drone looked like (as I assume what the researchers collected was destroyed with them) but at least they could have collected visual renderings of what the away team saw on the assimilated research vessel.
The Xindi join sometime after the founding of the UFP, and the 29th century, and then who knows, perhaps only part of the Xindi are members. Perhaps they resettled someplace different.
The larva was not a power cell, they produced synapitic impulses, which perhaps served as a simple CPU for the weapon. I think a modern Starfleet phaser is better... biological technology is neat, but I'd probably not use it in a phaser... what if you went to a very hot, or cold planet, it'd really suck to have your larva die and then the weapon to go haywire. Perhaps it was a precursor to the bio-neural gel packs, so maybe they did learn from it.
Posted by Shakaar (Member # 1782) on :
Oh my... as for the portal technology, yeah, I've no clue... mayhaps *ponders* the NX-01 had a warp 5 engine, but always went slower than that unless it was a big emergency, and even before TOS times there was be a big advancement in warp drive, so perhaps the Xindi vortex technology was faster than the NX-01, but the new warp drive tech to come was superior to both.
Posted by emperorkalan (Member # 1821) on :
One tech gadget that could have existed but didn't would be engineer's goggles using some of the same tech as Geordi's VISOR. In fact, it would probably develop in the other direction: the VISOR would likely be a souped-up and neural-linked version of already-existing visual sensor-tech.
Of course, it wouldn't be good TV to obscure the face of everybody in Engineering with funky shades, and might steal some of Geordi's uniqueness.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
They have done that themselves!
I mean, losing the visor for ST:VIII.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
In the alternate future presented in the DS9 Millineum books, starfleet officers wear a kind of VISOR that has tricorder functions and a built in phaser...but the hight tech aspect is blown by the description of a wire running down the person's back to a power supply in the uniform's belt.
A cool bit of captured tech would have been the invasive "parasite" that was introduced into the Defiant's systems in The Advesary.
The Dominion really does have all the coolest shit.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Alternate Dominion War timeline...methinks I've found a book to pique my interests for a month or so.
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
So starfleet went Cyclops with the visor?
Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
Hell, give all Starfleet officers Geordi's optical implants, some Seven-of-Nine inspired nano-upgrades, a mobile emitter with an EMH MkII, and a transporter transponder and buffer that allows them to carry buttloads of stuff in 'limbo.' Plus personal cloaks like several alien species have had, ablative armor generators, personal shields � la Worf, wrist-mounted pulse phasers reminiscent of the Anubis Warriors from SG1, and use tech like the VISOR and Seven's implants to link them with the ship mentally.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Yeah! And we can implant tubes in their arms that shoot nanoprobes into peoples' necks, and then the nanoprobes can start giving other people the same implants and linking them into the ship, and...
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Well, there's no reason your collective consciousness has to be so proselytistic.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Yes there is and you know there is.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote:Originally posted by dbutler1986: Hell, give all Starfleet officers Geordi's optical implants, some Seven-of-Nine inspired nano-upgrades, a mobile emitter with an EMH MkII, and a transporter transponder and buffer that allows them to carry buttloads of stuff in 'limbo.' Plus personal cloaks like several alien species have had, ablative armor generators, personal shields � la Worf, wrist-mounted pulse phasers reminiscent of the Anubis Warriors from SG1, and use tech like the VISOR and Seven's implants to link them with the ship mentally.
Why not give them impulse engines and warp drive and then they'll be no need for starships!
Posted by dbutler1986 (Member # 1689) on :
lol see, this is the problem with scifi. In real life they'd rapidly become unrecognizably alien. In every 25 years, the same amount of progress is made as in the past 100. I mean, these people are beyond the singularity....they would have had a complete paradigm shift at least once for sure.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Agreed- really, we've never seen any sci-fi show/movie that deals with what humans might become, rather it's usually how humans have remained the same (or worse) despite the passage of time and incredible technology advances. Trek usually (except for the crappy TOS movies) is unique in that it presents humans as morally more advanced than today's adverage bozo.
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: Alternate Dominion War timeline...methinks I've found a book to pique my interests for a month or so.
Is that an actual novel or are you just thinking of writing something? Could be an amazingly fun Flarite collective project....either as a seperate forum (as the unlamented Titan design forum was) or in the Starships and Tech section.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I'm not sure I "get" the series, but the new Doctor Who had an episode presenting a far future where h. sapiens had almost entirely transitioned to a series of curious daughter species.
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
That was "The End of the World", IIRC. Don't miss the iPod!
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
And the traditional Earth ballad that gets played on it!
That episode posits that by the year five billion, there are no "classic" human beings left:
ROSE So, you're not the last human.
CASSANDRA I am the last pure human. The others... mingled.
[Cassandra looks disgusted]
CASSANDRA Oh, they call themselves 'New Humans' and 'Proto-humans' and 'Digi-humans' even 'Human-ish' but you know what I call them?
[She lowers her voice to a whisper]
CASSANDRA Mongrels.
ROSE Right. And you stayed behind.
CASSANDRA I kept myself pure.
Although it's pretty absurd to think that humans would NOT have evolved in some way... Five billion years is plenty of time, even if technololgy has conquered most pressure for natural evolution.
Mark
Posted by WizArtist II (Member # 1425) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Agreed- really, we've never seen any sci-fi show/movie that deals with what humans might become, rather it's usually how humans have remained the same (or worse) despite the passage of time and incredible technology advances.
I remember one show that dealt with little grey men in UFO's. Its premise turned out to be that humans will BECOME the little grey men and have to travel back in time to this era to harvest genetic material to allow them to reproduce. So I guess we're dealing with Extra-Temporals instead of Etra-Terrestrials.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
It should be pointed out that, in that "Doctor Who" episode, the "last pure human" is actually a big sheet of skin and veins stretched over a rectangular frame, with eyes and a mouth.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
WizArtist, I remember that. Not the name or actors for the life of me, but I do remember it.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
"Is that an actual novel or are you just thinking of writing something? Could be an amazingly fun Flarite collective project....either as a seperate forum (as the unlamented Titan design forum was) or in the Starships and Tech section."
Well I meant that the DS9 Millenium Novels would be something for me to read for the month. As for a project that would be interesting...
Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by OnToMars: WizArtist, I remember that. Not the name or actors for the life of me, but I do remember it.
Dark something? Dark Skies, I think?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
No, the greys in Dark Skies were just aliens, at least as far as anyone mentioned. But aliens as future humans is a common theme in UFO circles.
Posted by The Ginger Beacon (Member # 1585) on :
Was that the pay off for that 'Taken' thingy that Spielberg paid for? I got bored with it, so I didn't watch the final episode.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mars Needs Women: "Is that an actual novel or are you just thinking of writing something? Could be an amazingly fun Flarite collective project....either as a seperate forum (as the unlamented Titan design forum was) or in the Starships and Tech section."
Well I meant that the DS9 Millenium Novels would be something for me to read for the month. As for a project that would be interesting...
Those are good- not exacly alternate Dominion War though- everything get's throughly fucked before the war really gets going. Those are the books with the "Starfleet tricorder/phaser Visor" in them, BTW. Posted by machf (Member # 1233) on :
quote:Originally posted by The Ginger Beacon: Was that the pay off for that 'Taken' thingy that Spielberg paid for? I got bored with it, so I didn't watch the final episode.
Googling a bit for UFOs "from the future" TV, it seems it may have been The 4400...
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
Probing further into The 4400 (ha!) I found that the abductors in question were either not shown or are not the greys. Plus the show is too recent, I think.
Posted by OnToMars (Member # 621) on :
It's older than that, I'm pretty sure. I remember watching it as a kid.
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