Say at Amazon I noticed they had old Franz Joseph's tech manual for sale. I'm deciding whether or not to buy it even though its non-cannon. Anybody here have it? Is it a good buy? How good is the starship content?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
The starship content accounts for only a tiny percentage of the book. I got it, and at the time I wasn't displeased with it because it sated my curiosity, but don't expect it to be all THAT interesting. Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Boy, you are opening up a WHOLE big kettle of fish.
At the time it was published, everything with the Star Trek name on it was considered part of the Trek universe, even those atrocious Gold Key comics. FJ went to the extent of seeking Gene's blessing/approval before publishing, which is kind of unfortunate, as getting Gene's appraisal of anything technical was a waste of time. He was far more concerned with the Story. Hence, the totally BS stardate explanation he pulled out of his ass at a convention, rather than just say the episodes were shown out of order.
After seeing the Booklet of General Plans and the Technical Manual, Gene asked FJ to work for/with him on his upcoming projects, designing props and the like. FJ never understood the Hollywood System, and it never occurred to Gene that he didn't. This led to some miscommunications, bad feelings, and a professional breakup, culminating in Gene declaring FJ's work unofficial (even though it was official).
So for a good decade, FJ's Tech Manual was considered definitive, by fans and moviemakers alike. Material from the TM was used in the first three Trek movies and formed the basis for Treknical Fandom for some time. Todd Guenther, David Schmidt, and others not so famous based a lot of their work on the foundations FJ illustrated in the TM.
Downside #1 is that Mike Okuda came to work for Paramount on Star Trek IV, and he was (and I think still is) a total Trekkie "Gene Roddenberry can do no wrong and His Word is Law" dork. He latched immediately onto the party line when Gene told him to ignore FJ's work, and adopted Gene's "Roddenberry's Rules of Starship Design", which of course were meant solely to invalidate the new designs FJ had put in his TM.
Downside #2 is that FJ had no real idea what he was doing. He readily admitted he wasn't a fan and didn't watch the show. Most of his raw material came from the few episodes he did happen to catch, slides and stills from Lincoln Enterprises, and second-hand info from his daughter and her other Trekkie friends. He never sought out Matt Jeffries, the guy who designed the Enterprise, many of the sets and props, and came up with the original half-formed registry system.
I have a 1st Printing, myself. I find it's excellent for material to fill in gaps, where it isn't contradicted by aired material, and where aired material gives no explanation.
--Jonah
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
Hmm...fascinating. Well thanks for the feedback especially Peregrinus for the backstory. I'm now considering those Starfleet Battles miniatures since I may be tempted to actually paint a couple.
Well I guess I won't be buying the tech manual but I liked to know of any books that deal with starships predominately.
Posted by bX (Member # 419) on :
Yes skimpy on the variety of starships (and I don't know what was going on with the (very intricate) station and cargo plans, but it did have a fair amount of stuff from TOS including props, uniforms panel breakouts and deckplans. As a draftsman, I find it fascinating to see something so intricate done by hand. Impressive in that regard if nothing else...
Posted by aridas (Member # 1051) on :
He actually DID meet Matt Jefferies. January 4, 1974. While working on the Technical Manual, and during a meeting with GR, Bob Justman, and Bill Theiss to go over problems with GR's new pilot (and to discuss the Booklet of General Plans they all had already seen).
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I like the FJ Dreadnaught, but generally hate all his other stuff- particularly the Saladin. I'm not real fond of the tug, but it sorta serves a purpose...thaough I loathe all the incredibly lame-ass alternate containers (hangar/fighter bays, luxury liners, gaint containers carrying unassembled but pre-built starships, etc) that the fan community has thrown together.
Prahaps GR and FJ are at each other's throats for all eternity like those black and white guys from TOS were...with cheesy music playing in the background.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
What bugs me the most is how the cover promises alien ship specifications, but they are nowhere to be found in the book.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
quote:Originally posted by aridas: He actually DID meet Matt Jefferies. January 4, 1974. While working on the Technical Manual, and during a meeting with GR, Bob Justman, and Bill Theiss to go over problems with GR's new pilot (and to discuss the Booklet of General Plans they all had already seen).
Hot damn, aridas, it's good to see you back here!
Huh... I knew he met with Gene frequently. I knew he met with Bill regarding the uniforms and insignia. But I didn't think he met with anyone else involved with Trek's production. Time to revise my world-view. Love to know the substance of that meeting, though. Most likely discussing the BGP, and his new ship designs. Heck, I'd love to know why Matt didn't point out all the errors in the BGP.
And Mars...? Star Fleet Battles is a nice ship combat system. FASA's minis were better, but are harder to find these days than the Venus de Milo's arms. Just make sure you don't get sucked into the SFB chronology. It gets pretty wacky/stupid/overblown. And the TM is worth picking up. You might surprise yourself with how often you end up pulling it off the shelf to check on something.
And Jason, I think the Saladin, Hermes, and Ptolemy were good working designs. They just needed some more work before I would have called them finished. I personally think the definitive version of the Federation is what we saw in the "Starship Design" magazine that Star Station Aurora put out oh so long ago.
--Jonah
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: Heck, I'd love to know why Matt didn't point out all the errors in the BGP.
Uh...because they weren't errors? The plans represented the prototype vessel of the starship class to which the Enterprise belonged, not the Enterprise herself. It was never intended that they should be an exact representation of the ship we saw on the television show.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
THERE
ARE
FOUR
SMILIES!!!!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Dont sway I never gave you anything: Resin recasts of the FASA minis plus new sculpts too.
Or you can just take the real plunge and build real models like me- a lot of the FASA designs are being made as 2500th sclae models now- I just got an incredible Winged Defender (with movable wings for fuck's sake!) last week! I alos gots a Grim Reaper, Chandley, Whitewind, Loknar and Larson- all in scale, baby! Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
Great. Where are the 1400s? Y'know, to match the rest of my fleet? Several Galaxys and Nebulas of various configs, Sovereign, Sabre, Akira, New Orleans, St(r)eamrunner, Constitution, Enterprise, Excelsior -- original and extra-crispy, Ambassadors of both stripes, a squadron of Defiants, Intrepid, Cheyenne, and a bunch of conversions underway. Alas, I don't have my Prometheus yet.
--Jonah
Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :
I rather like my copy . . . I've got a strangely-bound hardcover from '74 if memory serves. Bought it off eBay a year or two ago.
Despite the total lack of canonicity in the modern era, I bought it anyway for nostalgia's sake . . . I remember flipping through an 90's version in a bookstore as a teenager.
If you've never had the pleasure, buy it anyway . . . it provides a very nice glimpse into the origins of a lot of fandom speculation from pre-TNG eras, and is just pretty nifty in its own right . . . even if the innards of equipment are nothing more than wires and screws less advanced-seeming than your computer's innards. Posted by aridas (Member # 1051) on :
Peregrinus , I think the real-world answer as to why Jefferies or Roddenberry didn't bombard Franz Joseph with corrections is that it was understood from the start he was doing an idealized version of the ship, working out the "kinks" that resulted from upscaling it from 540 to 947 feet, switching the bridge stations around, etc. He was just doing what Jefferies himself did a few years later, when he worked up the original Phase II design.
It's a shame some regard the plans as substandard for being inaccurate to the filming miniature, when they were definitely not trying to be accurate to that model. The other stuff -- phaser, communicator, etc -- yeah. He gets a "C" on documenting those props, if that is what he was trying to do. But the ship? Nah. A+.
For what he was trying to do. Of course, I'm just talking the exterior, too. He might get a different mark on that interior, I think.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
...they should be towed away as garbage!
There are some pretty odd "official" notions of the TOS Enterprise's interior though- that cutaway poster for one, placing the TOS Connie as far larger than the (incredible David Kimble poster) Refit. Posted by Captain Boh (Member # 1282) on :
quote:Originally posted by aridas: Peregrinus , I think the real-world answer as to why Jefferies or Roddenberry didn't bombard Franz Joseph with corrections is that it was understood from the start he was doing an idealized version of the ship, working out the "kinks" that resulted from upscaling it from 540 to 947 feet, switching the bridge stations around, etc. He was just doing what Jefferies himself did a few years later, when he worked up the original Phase II design.
It's a shame some regard the plans as substandard for being inaccurate to the filming miniature, when they were definitely not trying to be accurate to that model. The other stuff -- phaser, communicator, etc -- yeah. He gets a "C" on documenting those props, if that is what he was trying to do. But the ship? Nah. A+.
For what he was trying to do. Of course, I'm just talking the exterior, too. He might get a different mark on that interior, I think.
No question that he put together a remarkable peice of work, based on when it was done (both for access to and ammount of source material, and for the fact that he didn't have the kind of computing we take for granted) and his intent with the work. Even if I don't agree with some of his choices, I both respect and enjoy the manual.
But its certanly not my first recomendation as a reference of what was depicted on television.
Posted by Mars Needs Women (Member # 1505) on :
quote: And Mars...? Star Fleet Battles is a nice ship combat system. FASA's minis were better, but are harder to find these days than the Venus de Milo's arms. Just make sure you don't get sucked into the SFB chronology. It gets pretty wacky/stupid/overblown.
I guess you mean the whole General War followed by the ISC War of Pacification and then the Andromedan Inavasion
As I was saying about the miniatures, I might want to buy some. Yet the SFB online store leaves me a bit suspicious. I mean they just kinda haphazardly offer models in random packs. I don't think they fully know what their doing. I dunno might just be me.
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)