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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>targetemployee</b> <br /><small>Member # 217</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,6,31,0,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 31, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:29 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> In one of the many interviews with Mr. Berman after the announcement of 'Enterprise', he has stated that he believes this show will invigorate the audience with exhiliration for the endeavor to space. I am adamantine in disagreeing. How can a show create excitement for an endeavor that has become itself a GNDN-"Goes Nowhere, Does Nothing"?<p>A very good example of the mentality that created a GNDN can be glimpsed with the two interpretations of a speech by Pres. Kennedy. A famous excerpt from that speech in 1961-"...land a man on the moon and return him safely to the Earth...".<p>In 1969, the speech was perceived as a call for America to become a spacefaring nation with colonies on the moon, Mars, and beyond. "Return to Tomorrow", a second year Star Trek episode, reflects this philosophy.<p>In the early 21st century, the speech is a literal translation, not an implied translation. A human goes to the moon, lands, and returns safely to the Earth. America succeeds with Apollo 11 in 1969. The other six missions are judged in the context of answering the question-where did the moon arise? As one administrator at NASA stated in an interview, the current perception held by the public is that the moon is a BTDT ("Been There, Done That") type of world. A new goal for NASA is to land humans on the distant red planet of Mars.<p>The issue with this is that the funding for NASA has not increased. Rather, the funding has been reduced. Considering that NASA accounts for 1 percent of the national budget, NASA is operating on a very small budget. And, what's worse, the station Alpha, a purported stepping stone to Mars, has a price cap and, to keep the station orbital, the budget for other programs at NASA are either reduced or eliminated all together. Some of these programs are for the human studies of Mars. So, in effect, the space station is killing its successor by consuming the majority of the consumables. We will have a tolerably acceptable space station with limited science capablities. Haven't we had this before? Oh, yes. Surya, Skylab, Mir. Like I said, GNDN.<p>After all this stupidity and short-sightedness, I feel very strongly that America will be eventually eclipsed by other spacefaring nations and, may in the future, be a Portugal or Spain. These ancient countries, in the Age of the Renaissance, usher in the Age of Exploration. Other countries, most notably England, are the successors of these first two countries. I ask myself, what country will become the space-age England? These "Englanders" will not be exhilarated by, even less watch, a niche sci-fi show to go into the space endeavor. They will be excited by the possibilities that await in space and the bounty that can be gained. <p>[ July 31, 2001: Message edited by: targetemployee ]<p>[ July 31, 2001: Message edited by: targetemployee ]</p> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jernau Morat Gurgeh</b> <br /><small>Member # 318</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,6,31,1,2,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 31, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:02 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I also think that the moon would be a better choice. Mars probably has more going for it in terms of water and atmosphere, but I think that the moon could be more economically beneficial, for the next 20 years anyway, because of its proximity (3 days). And that's what's needed to further space exploration, benefits ie. money. This is the only motivation that will work. Not some bunch of enthusiasts with stars in their eyes, pardon the pun.<p>But on the topic at hand, I'd have to say that I think <i>Enterprise</i> will have a positive effect on people's attitude towards space travel. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Timo</b> <br /><small>Member # 245</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,6,31,1,19,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 31, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:19 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The first crucial step will be to see to it that the ISS gets finished. Unless we can pull that off, then there's no hope of "going to places", nor doing science that involves human presence. Or doing anything else worthwhile, really.<p>The ISS nicely shows what space is like. There's no money coming in from manned spaceflight, there's just this gigantic sinkhole for it. There won't be any money there in the foreseeable future. You have to build big to attain even the most modest goals, and you have to be willing to throw a lot of good money after bad because the initial deposit of bad is so darn big that you can't just forget about it and start anew.<p>Yet unless something like the ISS is done at first, there'll never be any progress. Nobody is moving industries to space if it has to be done in small scale, lacking a practical surface-to-orbit-AND-BACK infrastructure. A one-shot mission to Mars, or Jupiter, or Alpha Centauri, won't jump-start anything because it will be just another money sinkhole that will prove how useless and unprofitable space is. But once we get used to the idea that space is conquered by burning more $$$ than hydrogen, that it's *supposed* to be hideously expensive and that there is no profit in it, *then* we can move on and do something useful there.<p>Luring people to think that space is like Star Trek will ultimately be counterproductive. Perhaps it would help if "Enterprise" showed us that Starfleet siphons off 69% of Earth's GNP and that there is a special space tax of 30% on everybody's income, and only thanks to this can the heroes have adventures in outer space.<p>Timo Saloniemi <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Vogon Poet</b> <br /><small>Member # 393</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,6,31,2,12,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 31, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:12 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Brit author Paul J McAuley did write a series of books in which Brazil is the dominant spacefaring nation - although that is after an initial burst of colonisation by the US is ended by a nuclear war. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Wes1701E</b> <br /><small>Member # 212</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,6,31,6,6,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 31, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:06 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> ", yes. Surya, Skylab, Mir. Like I said, GNDN"<p><br />that sir, is just stupid. no, im not gonna explain myself. you go look up those spacestations before you say anything about them <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>HappyTarget</b> <br /><small>Member # 670</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,6,31,14,32,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 31, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:32 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> IMHO it won't be any one country becoming the new England in space, it'll be corporations. Many are even now developing space hotels and asteroid/moon mining operations. Mega corperations have the spare change and/or the vision to see that mankind's future is in space. Modern countries, or even groups of countries, seem to only see the initial huge investment and not the bigger end payoff(hence the continual budget slashing by the partners in the International Space Station) If Enterprise sparks common people's desire about going into space, power to em. I don't think it will happen though, too many people would rather see government money spent on things in their own communities, not on infrastructure to get man to other planets. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>PsyLiam</b> <br /><small>Member # 73</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,6,31,16,38,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">July 31, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:38 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> "I feel very strongly that America will be eventually eclipsed by other spacefaring nations and, may in the future, be a Portugal or Spain. These ancient countries, in the Age of the Renaissance, usher in the Age of Exploration. Other countries, most notably England, are the successors of these first two countries."<p>Huh? I'm confused and scared, and I have no idea what you're talking about. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jernau Morat Gurgeh</b> <br /><small>Member # 318</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,7,1,2,44,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">August 01, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:44 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I can't remember the exact figure, but the American missile defence system is expected to run into hundreds of billions of dollars. The last I heard, the ISS is costing 40 billion, which, although about twice as much as originally expected, seems quite reasonable when you compare it with the amount of money being spent on a system which is arguably more of a financial sinkhole than these one-off Mars & Moon missions.<p>I'm sure there is profit to be made in space, it's just a matter of finding it and how to exploit it (It is said that many asteroids contain trillions of dollars worth of nickel and other metals). As Timo mentioned, probably the most important thing is to get an economically viable relaunchable system, hopefully the new scramjet research will make this possible. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Harry</b> <br /><small>Member # 265</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,7,1,2,44,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">August 01, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:44 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> He means that Spain and Portugal were the ones who 'first' went out exploring in the west (and discovering the Americas).<p>(BTW: Is say 'first', because in ancient times, the Egyptians, Chinese and Vikings already had contact with the Americas)<p>As for the future of spacefaring, I think Russia still has the most potential. With the Buran returning to service in the forseeable future, they are still have the most 'usable' spacefleet. NASA only builds prototypes and uses super high-tech machines (which is a good thing!) that usually are not suited for repeated use, while Russia uses old (or too old) and proven machines, which remarkable keep running and running. They were the first to pioneer commercial spaceflight earlier this year.<p>And of coure the large companies could be winners as well. The Microsoft Space Corporation? <img src="eek.gif" border="0"><p>[ August 01, 2001: Message edited by: Harry ]</p> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Wes1701E</b> <br /><small>Member # 212</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,7,1,3,27,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">August 01, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:27 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> "I feel very strongly that America will be eventually eclipsed by other spacefaring nations."<p>Given the current and recent advancements in science and technology NASA has developed, especially under these fund-dry conditions, I find this very very unlikely. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Vogon Poet</b> <br /><small>Member # 393</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,7,1,3,54,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">August 01, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:54 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Or, to put it more succinctly: "Ammeryca is nott going 2 b left behynd becozz were number 1 and we rool and oll uther nashuns suk and NassA is the culest!" 8) <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Wes1701E</b> <br /><small>Member # 212</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,7,2,9,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">August 02, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:30 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> no no no, what I meant was "'ey foolz u dis nasa 1 oen more time i wil' busta cap in yo ass foo." <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>First of Two</b> <br /><small>Member # 16</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,7,2,14,12,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">August 02, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:12 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Given that the Space Program and Military R&D are the only government programs that actually show a financial return (that is, they produce technologies which can be utilized in everyday life, and can turn a profit for those wise enough to invest in them), I find it collossally short-sighted that people want to cut funding for them in favor of local 'sinkholes.'<p>Really, spin-offs from those two programs gave us virtually every bit of technology we take for granted today, from the PC to freeze-dried food to the MRI to the power screwdriver.<p>And as for "Star Wars," I'll have to look up Larry Niven's essay on how the technologies from it could be used, but here's a quote from a Niven interview you might find interesting...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr> The wealth (as in flying cars) predicted by Heinlein and his followers (including myself) was another matter. It all went to welfare programs. <p>Vast numbers of people are microscopically better off for that, except that we all have less to aspire to. <p>Here is where the predictions failed: We didn't take Cargo Cult mentality into account [that being] "if somebody has something I don't, he must have stolen it." <p>We didn't understand how good we could get at communication -- when you have something that someone else doesn't, the whole damn planet knows it. But the space defense initiative drove the USSR bankrupt, and it originated at my house in Tarzana. <hr></blockquote><p>[ August 02, 2001: Message edited by: First of Two ]</p> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>PsyLiam</b> <br /><small>Member # 73</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,7,2,19,9,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">August 02, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:09 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I didn't find that interesting. I want those 10 seconds of my life back. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Stingray</b> <br /><small>Member # 621</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,7,5,17,37,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">August 05, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:37 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Wow, I'm not sure exactly who to bash/what to disprove first or where exactly start with my own treatise. So I'll just start.<p>I don't know what Surya is. You must be thinking of Salyut. Furthermore, space stations DO serve a purpose. The Salyuts (the ones that worked, anyway), Skylab, and Mir have all provided knowledge about living and working in space. That said...<p>The ISS is quite possibly the most horribly designed mechanical object ever conceived. NASA spent millions of dollars asking independent consultants what the best way to build a station was. They all said the exact same thing: Skylab. Build it like Skylab. NASA then proceeded to ignore this unanimous advise and built it the most complicated, most expensive, most dangerous way they could think of. In fairness, it was forced to do this because NASA has become the prison bitch of the U.S. government. Though, since this has happened NASA has adamantly defended its bent over position and continually professes its boldness in exploring the final frontier, which is complete bullshit at this point.<p>Note: I am of course speakking of manned exploration, NASA is pretty decent with robotic probes, although they are incapable of coming close to human efficiency in exploration.<p>As for any other location serving as a new home for a space faring humanity, there is none other than Mars. Robert Zubrin uses the example of Antarctica and North America with the respective potential of the moon and Mars. The moon/Antarctica are scientifically useful, but they are far too inhospitable and barren to serve as a future home of a new branch of civilization. However Mars has all the natural resources capable of becoming a home to millions upon millions of pepole. Oxygen, carbon, hydrogen (possibly in very large amounts - <a href="http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/odyssey/" target="_blank">2001 Mars Odyssey</a> should find out), and methane. Its day, axial tilt, landmass, etc etc are all similar to earth. I needn't go on. Read <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684835509/themarssociety/104-0939294-2064766" target="_blank">The Case For Mars</a>.<p>But you must realize also the feasibility of exploring Mars in the near term, which is the real goal. I'm not going into the schpeel now, as I just finished two weeks of giving it over and over again as part of a temporary exhibit at Kennedy Space Center. But nevertheless, read <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684835509/themarssociety/104-0939294-2064766" target="_blank">The Case For Mars</a>.<p>Really, there is much more to say, indeed books worth. Books like Case for Mars and Entering Space. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Timo</b> <br /><small>Member # 245</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,7,6,1,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">August 06, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:50 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, to build a station like Skylab, you need a big rocket to launch it all at once (or in just two or three big lumps if you want a bigger station). And the US just didn't have a big rocket. So the thing would have to be cobbled together from modules no matter what. More like Mir than Skylab. Not that there would be a major difference between those, though.<p>As for whether one needs a truss structure for the solar panels... Well, one needs a shitload of panels to power up the station (or then a fission reactor, but those are a strict no-no), and the ways of fitting them onto the modules directly are pretty limited. Mir was horribly user-unfriendly in that respect. Of course, Skylab was even worse, with nonexistent pointing capability - although as a solar observatory, the structure was ideal.<p>That said, there would be a zillion ways to build a better modular station than ISS or Mir, the main improvement being greater standardization so that the modules could be arranged into compact and structurally strong clusters yet easily changed when needed. The best way would probably still be to do it like the basic Mir concept, and like NASA wanted in the 70s - a central habitat hub and changeable lab spokes. That would give the shuttle something meaningful to do, too, namely changing the modules.<p>Still, I think ISS is an entry requirement for manned space travel. So it is dangerous and man-intensive to build - but most future projects will be more so. If we can't build this turkey, then we can't do most of the worthwhile projects, either. Things are only going to get harder from here on. <p>If people actually came to believe space exploitation was safe and sensible and cost-effective, thanks to *one* hyper-engineered silver-bullet space structure that actually had those qualities, and then lost that faith when not all the bullets could be made of silver.. that would spell disaster for space travel. There are too many false expectations already.<p>Timo Saloniemi <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Mark Nguyen</b> <br /><small>Member # 469</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,7,6,8,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">August 06, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:26 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> To add, I've found some really interesting sites to illustrate both your points. <p>Here's what Russia thought about the Mir Successor before it ran out of money:<p><a href="http://www.friends-partners.org/mwade/craft/mir2.htm" target="_blank">http://www.friends-partners.org/mwade/craft/mir2.htm</a><p>Here's what the US thought in the entire time through to the ISS:<p><a href="http://www.friends-partners.org/mwade/craftfam/usstions.htm" target="_blank">http://www.friends-partners.org/mwade/craftfam/usstions.htm</a><p>And here's what a bunch of Euros thought:<p><a href="http://www.friends-partners.org/mwade/craftfam/eurtions.htm" target="_blank">http://www.friends-partners.org/mwade/craftfam/eurtions.htm</a><p>And as a bonus, here's everything on every other space station design ever, almost:<p><a href="http://www.friends-partners.org/mwade/craft/mancraft.htm" target="_blank">http://www.friends-partners.org/mwade/craft/mancraft.htm</a><p>Mark <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2001,7,6,13,28,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">August 06, 2001</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:28 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> This thread might be more at home in the Officer's Lounge. <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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