One of the sticking points with me about the optimistic theme of "Enterprise" is how it's supposed to be all of Humanity that's reaching for the stars, but the vast majority of the exploration feats depicted are American or British-related, and other things like Sputnik were omitted.
But for some reason, this evening I was looking at some of the patterns that were on the screen while the credits were rolling. And I *think* that some of the patterns were actually writing -- Arabic.
Can anyone else confirm this?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Sputnik isn't included, presumably, because all of the images shown (save one) are manned missions. (I'm guessing that Pathfinder was included because it is a relatively fresh event, and lots of people watched it roll around, whereas Sputnik is, like, totally over. Satellites? Please. I'm watching the darn show via satellite. Satellites are about as high tech as zippers.)
Of course, Gagarin should probably be there. But, if its inclusivity you're looking for, 10% or so of the people pictured are Nazis. Inclusive enough for you?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Manned missions is a possibility... but I'd think that Sputnik would be a whole lot more important than the Pathfinder probe -- because it was Humanity's FIRST venture into space, even if it wasn't manned.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I am just starting to like the song, let alone watch the opening....
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Actually, while still not, you know, wanting to buy or indeed listen to the song anywhere else, I really like the opening, visually. Except! The bit where the ship is on the horizon and stretching out before it is the outline of a highway? Tacky.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Wasn't a manhole cover one of the first human-made things in space?
Posted by The Captain Who Will Not Be Named (Member # 709) on :
yes, after that sewer gas mishap of '58.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
BTW, what's that submarine thingy anyway?
Posted by newark (Member # 888) on :
A USN research sub.
My grip about the opening sequence is the suggestion that Anglo-Americans have done more to advance the exploration of humans in the last two hundred years than any other people in the earth's history. This is crap.
Our earliest ancestors, when they left Africa for the Middle East and Europe, did more. They started our civilization. They were the ones with the "faith of the heart". Why aren't they shown?
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
1) Because nobody's interested in watching 30 minutes of opening credits over and over and over again
2) Because early human history is about as exciting as watching paint dry*
3) Because we haven't exactly got any archived footage of Columbus et all lying around
* This, for the record, is *not* the opinion of me, myself, and I.
The submarine, by the way, is called Deep Flight.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
You've got to remember that they had to do keep a couple things in mind while making this opening:
1) They've got, like, 30 seconds to show this stuff.
2) It's basically an Anglo-American audience they're targeting. I'm more distressed by the fact that noone on the ship has anything other than an American or British accent.
3) People are stupid. They had to pick stuff that stood a fair chance of being recognizable to most people. Space Shuttle... duh... Astronauts... duh... oooh... space ship... cool!
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
BTW who is that Astronaught they focus on for a comparitively 'long' time? He sort of tilts his head.
As for 'early' stuff they could have maybe shown Chinese with gunpowder!?!
Maybe they could have had the credits as looking throught the Guardian of Forever!
They didn't have the Voyager space-probes - Voyager 2 especially! I feel Voyager 2 was more important than Pathfinder.
Posted by Woodside Kid (Member # 699) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR.: BTW who is that Astronaught they focus on for a comparitively 'long' time? He sort of tilts his head.
Alan Shepard. First American in space. Apollo 14 commander. Only Mercury astronaut to walk on the moon.
For my money, they could replace the spacewalk over the shuttle with a shot of Aleksei Leonov, the first man to walk in space back in 65.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Yup, thanks - I know who Alan Shepard is - didn't know his face.
He doesn't look like Scott Glenn (from "The Right Stuff") ;o)
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
What a coincidence - was just looking at "The Neutral Zone"'s page on the Challenger Class:
U.S.S. Kearsage: "Named for the American aircraft carrier that served as the recovery vessel for Alan shepard's Freedom Seven Mercury spacecraft."
Posted by Herr Kapitan Mike (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Aban Rune: I'm more distressed by the fact that noone on the ship has anything other than an American or British accent
What's Hoshi? Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
I wouldn't really say she has an accent. There are alot of people from Oriental families who have lived in the US for generations. If she had a more distinctly Asian accent, it would go farther in promoting this united Earth idea, to me. Apparently, though, United Earth means everyone is now Anglo-American. They do try to throw in some un-American sounding names though... Hoshi Sato... the crewman who got beamed up with rocks inside him had a weird name.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I didn't know that the sub was real. I was laboring under the impression that it was a bit of custom CG. Neat!
Posted by Herr Kapitan Mike (Member # 709) on :
well she's a linguistic expert, so shes probably good at not speaking with an accent. they still havent revealed if she's native or not..
yeah, Novakovich.. oddly enough, that didnt seem like a token foreign name use, its a name they keep reusing. it was one of Wesley's professors, and a chess move too i recall, in TNG
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
quote: They do try to throw in some un-American sounding names though...
That's exactly my main point of criticism. A "true" inhabitant of Earth must be American. But even more idiotically, a "true" American, according to Enterprise, must have British or Irish ancestors and thus, a British or Irish name. But have a look at present-day American phone books. Although many immigrants have changed their names to adopt, "un-American" names are becoming increasingly predominant. The makers *ignore* a diversity that exists already today and can only become stronger in the next 200 years.
In this light, I don't want single foreign characters as a courtesy, but I am damn right to expect a fair share of them (especially since they would cost nothing).
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I want an Australian character - ok we had Nella Darren. She is an Australian actress.
OK we have a boomer on the show - born in space. What about a Martian!?!
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Umm, the sub IS "custom CGI". It just happens to be drawn in the image of the Deep Flight II experimental submarine, AFAIK as yet unbuilt. I seriously doubt the CGI comes from the people who are working with Deep Flight II, really. It's more likely the ENT team made it up based on an image they saw in Scientific American or whatever (hopefully after asking for permission).
And I didn't know Deep Flight II had military connections. From what I hear, it's more of a private venture, intended to demonstrate a single-piece ceramic pressure vessel (plus canopy) that has RF links instead of wires for controlling the engines, ballast etc. and for relaying power. That is, no lead-throughs whatsoever. A single-man agile "underwater aircraft" hopefully capable of going as deep as it gets!
A Deep Flight I already exists, a shallow-water toy that tests the "aircraft" concept but not the ceramic pressure vessel. Links to be added when I find them.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
It's an American show. What do you expect? Even if they *had* a greater diversity on there, they would still be speaking with American/English accents on the show. So what's the problem, their lack of diverse names?
It irritates me that people so easily accept obvious fantasy like the gravity generators or inertial dampeners or whatever BS they come up with to explain the Enterprise set not moving around as they zip around, and not the obvious fantasy of an all American crew. Especially when both are part of making a show in a California warehouse meant to get ratings and ad money from American audiences.
Instead of complaining about how *they* do it, why don't you make your own show? You've obviously got the talent and the brains for it. Going to your website easily shows you've got the berserk dedication needed. Seriously. Go do your own thing, get rich, and forget about how a bunch of spoiled Californians do their show.
Posted by Cadet Sorak (Member # 874) on :
quote: But for some reason, this evening I was looking at some of the patterns that were on the screen while the credits were rolling. And I *think* that some of the patterns were actually writing -- Arabic.
Writing? Where? I looked all over the screen and I didn't see anything...
quote: Maybe they could have had the credits as looking throught the Guardian of Forever!
That would be a really neat twist! Write Paramount!
Why don't those turkeys think of this stuff on their own? There must be a creativity shortage what with all these people watching mindless science fiction TV... Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Free ThoughtCrime America: It's an American show. What do you expect? Even if they *had* a greater diversity on there, they would still be speaking with American/English accents on the show. So what's the problem, their lack of diverse names?
It irritates me that people so easily accept obvious fantasy like the gravity generators or inertial dampeners or whatever BS they come up with to explain the Enterprise set not moving around as they zip around, and not the obvious fantasy of an all American crew. Especially when both are part of making a show in a California warehouse meant to get ratings and ad money from American audiences.
Except, y'know, Star Trek in general doesn't do this.
TOS: One African. One Russian, with accent. If we push for Kyle, one Englishman (with accent). One Scot (with accent)
And Shatner has a Canadian accent too.
TNG: One Frenchman (with blatently English accent).
And Troi had an English accent too (although it's not her real accent).
DS9:
One Indian-Brit with English accent and proper cockney dad. One Irishman who said "bollocks".
VOY:
One Native American.
This is obviously ignoring African Americans, and Asian-Americans (although I can't actually remember where Kim was born at the moment).
So, not an everwhelming number of non-yanks, but still more than Enterprise has managed (if Hoshi does turn out to be American).
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
To be fair, Enterprise's 2 (potentially 3) Americans out of 5 humans isn't as high as Voyager's 3 (potentially 4) out of 4. Hoshi and Harry being the potentiallies.
(And, yeah, I'm discounting Mayweather, The Doctor and Seven, who are all borderline American and/or borderline human)
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Tsk. I forgot about Malcolm.
Posted by LET CAPTAIN = MIKE THEN GOTO 10 (Member # 709) on :
just because Malcolm is a lame characterless yes-man is no reason to call him 'borderline human'
oh wait maybe it is.
Posted by Warbadden Hawkins (Member # 905) on :
HEY, anyone know what type /name of the ship in the opening credits shown just before the Enterprise goes the warp?
Posted by Vogon Poet (Member # 393) on :
quote:One Indian-Brit with English accent and proper cockney dad.
You call that accent "proper cockney?" You sure you're not actually Australian like Frank suspects?
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
No... It's just a ship in the credits, presumably an earlier Starfleet ship than the NX class.
The ship has a saucer and nacelles. With the work that went into it... I'm of the opinion that it will show up in the show at some point.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam:
TOS: One African. One Russian, with accent. If we push for Kyle, one Englishman (with accent). One Scot (with accent)
And Shatner has a Canadian accent too.
TNG: One Frenchman (with blatently English accent).
I just have to say did anyone realise Nella Darren had an Australian accent? No? Cause they didn't cast an Australian who didn't sound like Steve Fucking Irwin. B5 had a NUMBER of these sorts of characters... including the woeful "Cap'n Jack". They weren't Australian accents - they were American trying to sound "Australian" but ending up just sound like some wierd Cockney accent!
quote: And Troi had an English accent too (although it's not her real accent).
What is WITH her accent though - Season 1 was wierd - It kinda did make her more 'exotic'. I hate it in FC --> It doesn't sound like "Troi" from TNG. It's funny - she sounds more like TNG TV Troi in those few VOY episodes than she did in the movies (well 8 and 9).
quote: DS9:
One Indian-Brit with English accent and proper cockney dad. One Irishman who said "bollocks".
Funny thing about DS9 - no "WHITE AMERICAN" in the main cast. Sisko and Son - black Americans, Bashir - Sudanese (isn't that his background? Siddig's that is). O'Brien - Irish. Kira - Bajoran, Dax - Trill, Quark - Ferengi. Worf - Klingon
TOS: Kirk, McCoy, Chapel, Rand TNG: Riker, Crusher, Wesley, (Barclay) DS9: VOY: Janeway, Paris, (Samantha Wildman)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
The actor, perhaps, but Bashir the character is British.
Posted by LET CAPTAIN = MIKE THEN GOTO 10 (Member # 709) on :
the character of Bashir is British (of some variant thereof, i cant recall if they ever nailed down where he grew up.. perhaps one of the colonial British empire type places).. but he is definitely supposed to be of non-caucasian ancestry.. the name 'Bashir' is of middle eastern origin, and the actors selected to play his parents seemed to play off that. Richard and Amsha Bashir were played by Brian George, an Israeli born Canadian (he was Babu on Seinfeld), and Fadwa el Guindi, a Californian Arab-American activist, who has been interviewed about playing the part of a traditional 'Arab mother'
Posted by Bernd (Member # 6) on :
quote:It irritates me that people so easily accept obvious fantasy like the gravity generators or inertial dampeners or whatever BS they come up with to explain the Enterprise set not moving around as they zip around, and not the obvious fantasy of an all American crew. Especially when both are part of making a show in a California warehouse meant to get ratings and ad money from American audiences.
Okay. If it is all only for ratings and selling commercials anyway, we should re-consider what we are supposed to be doing here. Perhaps no technical analysis, no continuity issues, just try to figure out how Berman could gather even more members of the target group. Sex, shooting, swearing, stars & stripes...
It irritates me that fans are rather concerned about ratings than about the direction the show is taking. Those people in Hollywood all hate Germany. One gets used to it. Those people may think they are on a lucky island just as George Bush and the likes who give a damn about what happens in the rest of the world. I can only say that America must finally wake up and acknowledge that there are people in the rest of the world too - people who have traditions, history, desires, human rights. In Star Trek as well as with more serious issues.
"It's been a long road..." will always sound hypocritical as long as they even fail to see how present-day Earth is. And how could those people provide a vision for the future (oh well, of a bright future in which the rest of the world was nuked)?
Of course, we in Europe could do our own thing (and I'm not only talking of a sci-fi series), but wouldn't that mean making the same mistake as all the Bushes and Bermans?
Once again: We are one world, but it's obvious that, whenever Archer uses the word "human", he actually means "American". Sure, alien ships *always* land in the USA instead in the uncivilized world. But be honest to yourself, is there any reason why about 80% of all human Trek characters have Anglo-Irish names, even if they don't talk? Of all American tv series (even those set in present-day USA), Star Trek (since Voyager) carries the obsession with everything American to unprecedented and simply ludicrous extremes.
I'm not complaining about the realism in the show but about the attitude of the producers (so there is simply no comparison to any technical issues).
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: Those people in Hollywood all hate Germany.
Uh, sure they do.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Originally posted by CAPTAIN MIKE:
"the character of Bashir is British (of some variant thereof, i cant recall if they ever nailed down where he grew up.."
His father never had a set job so they grew up all over the place didn't they?
"perhaps one of the colonial British empire type places).. but he is definitely supposed to be of non-caucasian ancestry.. the name 'Bashir' is of middle eastern origin, and the actors selected to play his parents seemed to play off that. Richard and Amsha Bashir were played by Brian George, an Israeli born Canadian (he was Babu on Seinfeld), and Fadwa el Guindi, a Californian Arab-American activist, who has been interviewed about playing the part of a traditional 'Arab mother'"
I remember reading somewhere - the Encyc? The Star Trek Magazine? That It was near impossible to find a female actor of Arabic descent to portray Bashir's mother as Women aren't or don't often act or appear on camera or something!?!
Fadwa el Guindi wasn't actually an actress i.e. through a casting agent etc., but agreed to play the part of Amsha.
Posted by LET CAPTAIN = MIKE THEN GOTO 10 (Member # 709) on :
yes, shes actually an anthropologist. she was an understudy to a community play or something, and ended up getting a call since a casting agent saw her performance. she's done a few interviews on how she appreciated getting to bring an Arab female character on TV.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Robert Herbet Wolffe once said that he was English, and was born somewhere in London. I can't quite remember where.
And even if they didn't say he was British, it was fairly obviously the intention, from his accent, his pint and pub attitude in Quark's, to his dad who Did Do A Reasonable Cockney Accent So Ignore Lee Because He Is Grumpy, and so forth...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well I guess it makes sense, there IS a large Indian, Pakastani, Iranian etc. etc. population in England isn't there? A result of families moving after the British Colonies were disbanded?
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:Originally posted by PsyLiam: Robert Herbet Wolffe once said that he was English, and was born somewhere in London. I can't quite remember where.
Knightsbridge.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Herbert?
Posted by LET CAPTAIN = MIKE THEN GOSUB 420 (Member # 709) on :
Herbert, the stiff man puttin' my mind in jail, the judge bangs the gavel and says no bail?
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
quote: Those people in Hollywood all hate Germany.
Might have something to do with the fact that many of the high-ranking people in Hollywood are Jews. They can't really be blamed though, for not liking Germans, although perhaps "hate" is too strong a word. And after all, it's not just people in Hollywood. Watch films from around the world (ok, so most of them do come from Hollywood). Where do the Baddies come from normally? Germany, Russia, the Arab world. If the bad guy is really from America, then it's normally some disgruntled military officer (� la "The Rock", "Broken Arrow"...)
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Jesus, get a grip.
Posted by RAMAGNUS PYM (Member # 239) on :
Break out the crazy hats! It's time to go nuts!
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I suppose I should probably moderate my sentiments, but honestly, everyone in Hollywood hates Germans, and they do this because the media is controlled by Jews? This is, as we say in my neck of the woods, crazy. Maybe even Crazy Go Nuts, I'm not sure. But come on.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
I guess Lex Luthor sort of fits that mold, since he's bald and stuff. But why would a German hate the Superman? I'm confused.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Because Germans are Nazis. They wear black and/or brown. Superman is all about primary colors.
Duh.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
Now now.
First, it wasn't me who said that everyone in Hollywood hates Germans. That was a quote of Bernd's remark, remember?
Second, I didn't say that the media was controlled by Jews. I just stated my observation of the fact that a great number of those people who are responsible for making movies in Hollywood are Jews. Studio execs, producers, directors, writers... I have nothing against that fact and I don't want to imply that this is the reason for the anti-german attitude in American films. I just wanted to offer one possible contributing element - though it might indeed seem quite a bit far-fetched.
But I agree with Bernd in that there is a great deal of anti-german, anti-russian and anti-arab sentiments to be found in many films, from small ones right up to Hollywood blockbusters.
Third, many Americans - and not just uneducated ones unfortunately - have almost no knowledge of the world outside the U.S. A story to prove it? My colleague at work has lived in the U.S. for several years. She worked for an IT company and while there, asked some co-workers if they wanted to come visit her after her return to Germany. They said that they wouldn't really want to come as, and that is their original quote, "yes, the scenery is quite nice, but we are a bit uneasy about all those concentration camps" !!!
Come on, these were no idiots, they were professionals of a big IT company (HP as a matter of fact!). There are statistics to prove that this isn't just some one-time exceptionary example, but a very common phenomenon in the U.S.: a fundamental lack of knowledge of facts about the rest of the world.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
Everybody in China knows Kung Fu! EVERYBODY! I've seen enough movies to know that.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
quote: They said that they wouldn't really want to come as, and that is their original quote, "yes, the scenery is quite nice, but we are a bit uneasy about all those concentration camps" !!!
Posted by E. Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
To get it out of the way:
THOSE EMOTICONS ARE COOL!
Next as to the subject. The main cause for American unconcern with the rest of the world is the original isolationist attitude of the country. It wasn't until the turn of the century [last century] that the US actually started to have a place on the world scene. Today much of it remains, although the government and large corporations are extremely involved in other countries.
Now the reason that American media is hard on Russians is obvious. A fifty year cold-war isn't going to make a lot of positive movies about your advisary. You'd all be saying the same thing about Russia if 1) Their society created as many movies as the US. 2) If their movies were as popular as the ones from the US. Neither of which is true of course. Russia was just as hard on the US in their movies, if not worse in some cases, as the US-- and the same can be said in reverse.
Germans. It has nothing to do with Jews. In fact the claims of hating Germans seems a rash inflated to me. Most of the movies with Germans in them are WWII movies, are they not? Most of the movies that remain are those with a plot traced back to WWII [either in the real-time line or an alternate one]. --- What remains? I bunch of B-movies and that stupid episode of Seinfield with the Soup-Nazi?
Arabs. If I have to explain this one I think I'll be highly confused. Yeah, maybe it's propaganda... but it's been a near image of real life for the past three decades. Americans haven't been enthuzed with Arabs since the Iranian Students took hostages [now my memory is failing me at the moment, were their two incidents, one with IBM employees and another with the embassy staff--- or did that happen at the same time?]. But the fact that Arabs would prefer us all dead doesn't help either [blanket statement I know, but most of the Arab population has voiced this opinion]. The final nail is when Americans look at Israel, a country which was formed by an agreement in 1948 and has been under attack by it's Arab neighbors ever since. Israelies are Jews, yes, but that's no excuse for living in fear from all sides or from your next door neighbor who happens to be a Palistinian.
This is a Star Trek forum... and we're getting back into a discussion that need not be. Star Trek is an American show... who cares if Gene Roddenberry put together a multi-ethnic TOS senior crew--- look at the background folks. What was their predominate majority? Star Trek isn't about inclusiveness above all else--- that's a form of discrimination in itself because you look for people who are different. Star Trek is about the fact that people are different, and no one cares if you're black or white or arab, or from America or Europe or Africa or Asia, or if your Jewish or Muslim or Christian or Athiestic. You guys are looking for those people because you see their difference and care if they are there or not. I'm not looking for those people because I see their difference and don't care if they are there or not.
That's the truth of the matter... but whenever it's said a whole lot of somebodies get their panties in a wad. Like it's been said on shows besides Star Trek "The very young rarely understand." B5 and SG have it down pretty well on those notes... so concerning reality and ST this is my advice:
GROW UP! Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
Two things:
@Cartmann: LOL, that pic is just so true!!! Great!
@J: You're right of course. But to return to Star Trek - the main reason GR included all those different characters in TOS was to show that in the future, racial, ethnic or other differences wouldn't matter anymore. To accomplish that goal he had to show a variety of different people working in important positions on the Enterprise. Of course he couldn't include all minorities, but instead settled for those who seemed most controversial at the time: Russian, Asian, female African American.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Well, the funny thing IMO is that both sides are right with respect to "Star Trek" -- yes, inclusiveness can be considered a form of discrimination because one seeks out those who are different and parades them as "See how nice we are?!" -- but TOS also needed to have a wide variety of non-American nationalities in order to get its point across. (Although Sulu, despite being Asian, was born in America, right?)
Anyway, I think that at this point Trek should theoretically have evolved past the point of needing to specifically seek out people who are different to include in the main cast. However, the fact remains that Trek is still a TELEVISION PRODUCTION BUSINESS, and not a philosophy think-tank, and therefore the producers must deal with reality with regard to potential actors and actresses in the Hollywood area (and beyond, to a certain extent).
For example, it's my understanding that many Muslims (especially women) do not fully support television as an entertainment medium, or at least acting for television. (I admit I don't understand the underlying beliefs that well.) Anyway, the fact remains that few Muslim/Arab men or women are especially eager to become actors in LA (or anywhere else) -- and therefore, that's an entire culture that is nearly ignored as far as direct portrayal in shows like Trek.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Warning: this post is slightly on topic!!
The last ENT episode (or the spoilers for next week? can't remember) seems to imply that Hoshi is Japanese. Or at least her parents are.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
I think it merely implied that she's of Japanese ancestry since she said her recipe/dish came down her family line.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
