And I don't even remember the name of the episode, Enterprise has made so minor a blip on my radar screen. But it's the one where she undergoes premature pon farr (and forgive me if this has been talked to death already, I couldn't find any threads on the subject)...
When (before now, obviously) was it established that Vulcan females also go through pon farr?
--Jonah
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
It wasn't. Though there was that VOY ep where Torres gets a dose of it from that Vulcan engineer. But that doesn't really mean anything.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Not really spoilers anymore...but this (and the Tellerites) were both see in "Bounty". T'Pol got her ponfaar prematurely 'triggered' by some microbe on the planet that they were surveying.
So evidently the gurlz need to get it too.... Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Did they actually call it "pon farr" in the ep? All the mentions I can think of say "pon farr" "Vulcan males" "every seventh year of their adult lives". If females have to go through "pron fer" every nine years instead, it might be worth the distinction. Oh, and Peter David's little universe has Vulcan females undergoing pon farr same as the males, presumably because it makes little sense for just the males to have such a condition when its stated cause also applying to females.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
I'm not sure if the exact term pon farr was used...but its the female equivalent...
From the "official" synopsis: "Meanwhile, T'Pol is infected with an alien pathogen that unleashes her primal Vulcan urges."
"primal Vulcan urges" is what pon farr is in the males so whatever the female term might be, she got it.
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
pr0n farr!! H4R~ 1 KN0VV 17 VV3LL !!!1!!!1 H4R!!1
Posted by Ryan McReynolds (Member # 28) on :
quote:From "Bounty" T'POL: I'm not ill.
PHLOX: These are hardly normal readings.
T'POL: They're normal for a Vulcan in my condition.
PHLOX: You know what's wrong with you?
T'POL: It's not something we discuss with others.
PHLOX: I believe it's time for you to amend that policy. You have my assurance it will remain between us.
T'POL: We call it the pon farr, the cycle of mating.
PHLOX: Have you gone through this before?
T'POL: It's not time.
PHLOX: It's possible the infection acted as a catalyst.
T'POL: What caused it doesn't matter. If I don't mate with a male, Vulcan or otherwise, I'll die.
So, yeah, pon farr it is. While there has never been a mention of females entering pon farr before, there has also never been a mention of them not.
quote:From "Fusion" KOV: Vulcan males are driven to mate once every seven years.
Now, Kov was male and talking to two human males, so he wasn't neccessarily saying females don't have the drive. Alternately, perhaps the male's drive triggers the female telepathically, through their childhood bond. In any case, as we see below, this was actually the only time anyone specified a gender...
quote:From "Amok Time" SPOCK: We shield it with a ritual... and customs shrouded in antiquity. You humans have no conception. It strips our minds from us. It brings a madness which rips away... our veneer of civilization. It is the pon farr: the time of mating. There are precedents in nature, Captain; the giant eel-birds of Regulus Five, once each 11 years... they must return to the caverns where they hatched. On your earth, the salmon... they must return to that one stream... where they were born... to spawn... or die in trying.
KIRK: But you're not a fish, Mr. Spock. You're--
SPOCK: No. Nor am I man. I'm a Vulcan. I'd hoped I would be spared this, but the ancient drives are too strong. Eventually, they catch up with us, and we are driven by forces we cannot control... to return home and take a wife... or die.
Spock, in the original pon farr episode, never says it is a male-only drive. T'Pring had probably already had sex with Stonn, explaining her calm at the koon-ut kal-if-fee.
quote:From "The Cloud Minders" DROXINE: You only take a mate once every seven years?
SPOCK: The seven-year cycle... is biologically inherent in all Vulcans. At that time, the mating drive outweighs all other motivations.
DROXINE: And is there nothing that can disturb that cycle, Mr. Spock?
SPOCK: Extreme feminine beauty... is always... disturbing, madam.
Not exactly a high point of the series, but Spock does explicitly say that pon farr affects all Vulcans.
quote:From "Blood Fever" DOCTOR: You're going through the Pon farr, aren't you?
VORIK: That's an extremely personal question, Doctor.
DOCTOR: Yes, I'm aware that Vulcans prefer to keep their mating practices very much to themselves. There's almost nothing in the medical database beyond a few observations made by Starfleet doctors over the years. Your symptoms, the chemical imbalance and loss of emotional control are consistent with those observations. Have you been eating and sleeping normally?
VORIK: I knew there was something wrong. I was hoping it wasn't this.
DOCTOR: I assume this is your first Pon farr? There's nothing to be embarrassed about. It's a normal biological function. I'll do what I can to help you through it, but I'll need a little more information.
VORIK: We do not discuss it.
DOCTOR: I'm afraid you'll have to. You have a severe imbalance in your brain chemistry. If it gets much worse, it could become life threatening. Now I need to know how Vulcans deal with this condition.
VORIK: We go home. Every seven years of our adult life, Vulcans experience an instinctual irresistible urge to return to the homeworld and take a mate.
Again, Vorik says that Vulcans in general feel the drive, not only males.
quote:From Star Trek III: The Search for Spock Saavik: Pon farr. Vulcan males must endure it every seventh year of their adult life.
This is similar to the Kov statement above. Saavik was explaining to David what was happening to Spock, a male. It was probably a mistake, though, by someone who didn't see "The Cloud Minders."
I don't know if there was ever a Tuvok pon farr episode, but if there was, I don't have the script, closed captions, or a transcript, so I'm afraid I can't dig up any quotes.
[ May 29, 2003, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
The only reference to Tuvok's pon farr in VGR to my recollection is in "Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy" when The Doctor is singing during the teaser.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Tuvok's pon farr was dealt with in the seventh season in an utterly forgettable B-plot. Basically, he gets his rocks off with a holo-wife and Paris' help. Problem solved.
Mark
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
That's just disgusting...
You forgot to add the help of the (unseen) Voyager janitor who had to clean the emitters after the program ended...
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
DOCTOR: I assume this is your first Pon farr? There's nothing to be embarrassed about. It's a normal biological function. I'll do what I can to help you through it, but I'll need a little more information.
Hahahaha....treating pon farr like masturbation. I love it.
The Puritans would've loved the Vulcan piety of logic.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
The real question is, as old as T'Pol is supposed to be, why hasn't she ever gone through pon farr before? In "Amok Time", Spock was only in his 30s, and it was obviously the first time for him, since he wasn't already married to T'Pring yet. I believe T'Pol is supposed to be quite a bit older than her mid-30s.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
T'Pol's statement doesn't seem to be saying that this is her first time. She seems to be dodging the question, actually.
Incidently, uh, I'm not sure why a, um, manual override wouldn't work. I mean, she wanted to have sex with Phlox, and if it's a biochemical thing he's probably got as much in common with Vulcans as something that has very little in common with anything. But, then you wouldn't have much of an episode.
I wonder if a species could actually survive if it only reproduced every seven years. Of course, D. C. Fontana, I think, suggested that, at the time of "Amok Time," it wasn't the intention to suggest that was the only time Vulcans had sex. So who knows?
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
The only other Vulcan 'emotions' episode in Voyager was "Gravity" (which I always thought was ponfarr related until the 7th season came around) with Tuvok and his 'close encounter' with Noss...
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
when DC was writing her novel, Vulcans Glory, she included some Vulcan hanky-panky specifically to refute her claim that mating was possible between cycles. .basically, every seven years they MUST mate, but in between the can mate if they so desire.. logic precludes that a lot of the time time, but obviously its up to the couple.. (some Vulcs are better at controlling themselves than others, i can easily see some finding a logical reason to do it just cuz it feels good.. theyarent a cookie cutter species, some of the mcan be horndogs if they want to..)
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"T'Pol's statement doesn't seem to be saying that this is her first time."
Not her statement, no. But I seem to recall that she shook her head "no" before making that statement. I could be wrong about that, but, when I watched it, something definitely suggested to me that she was telling Phlox it had never happened before.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
The only problem I have with female pon farr, really, is the idea that it would be rigidly cyclic like the male one. That significantly lowers the odds of finding a mate. Then again, perhaps Vulcan telepathy developed specifically to increase those odds again...
It seems that pon farr is not the result of the Vulcan denial of emotion, not by these quotes. It's a species-specific urge that's just made all the more inconvenient by the philosophy of logic. (And, incidentally, should then be present on Romulans and Mintakans as well.)
And much like VOY "Body and Soul" says, it seems pon farr only becomes an issue in the later years, and grows in severity with age. There probably is no fixed onset age - Vulcans might get the first bout at age 7, the next at age 14, and so on, but they'll only *feel* it after reaching 35-70 or so.
The cycle may not be exactly seven years, since we desperately need the dramatic leeway of a Vulcan, aged something-not-divisible-by-seven, to be able to undergo pon farr. Or then the cycle is exactly seven years, but does not necessarily begin at year zero. Or year seven.
And yes, I'm sure Vulcans come in an extremely purist style, not EVER having sex outside pon farr, or eating anything beyond digestively sufficient protein goo, and in several more hedonist styles. Some may enjoy sex for several years before the onset of their first real pon farr. Others may indulge in it only after finding a mate. And if "Body and Soul" is any indication, the old geezers are the horniest of all, which explains why they rob Earthling cradles when Vulcan women run out. And why Soval is in this constant PMS.
Incidentally, there's this discrepancy between "Amok Time", "Body and Soul" and "Bounty" regarding alternate relief methods. Spock says he has to find a Vulcan mate on Vulcan. Tuvok implies pretty much anybody would do, but he's married and won't accept others, including Vulcan females aboard the ship. And T'Pol says alien partners are okay. Are we to dismiss Spock's (and later Vorik's) claim of the need for Vulcans on Vulcan as naive and uninformed? Or should we assume that the *first* pon farr truly has to take place on Vulcan with Vulcans? Or was Spock neglecting to say that his bonding arrangement forced his return, while other, unbound Vulcans would not have these limitations?
In any case, Vorik messes it up the worst. Does he really mean that Vulcans have to dump their old partner every second years and find a new one?
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: The cycle may not be exactly seven years, since we desperately need the dramatic leeway of a Vulcan, aged something-not-divisible-by-seven, to be able to undergo pon farr. Or then the cycle is exactly seven years, but does not necessarily begin at year zero. Or year seven.
There's also the fact that it's almost certainly seven VULCAN years...which could add up to, like, every 4.7 Earth years or something.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Spock says he has to find a Vulcan mate on Vulcan.
My guess is that that that's because his telepathically bonded mate was on Vulcan, as the vast majority of Vulcan females would have been. HE had to go there.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
We've got no reason to think the Romulans don't experience it.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Except for the fact that it's supposed to be a reaction to suppression of emotions, which Romulans don't do.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
But Sela kinda does....oh, wait.....that's just wooden acting. Never mind. Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
...I realise what you are getting at... ...but I just thought I would add that she was half-n-half and kinda spiteful of humans. Actually, she would have made a much more ideal enemy for Nemesis than Shinzon...at least she had a reason to be pissed off at Picard/Earth...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hell NO! SUcky acting in a TV role does NOT entitle you to a job doing the same on the big screen (Shatner was the exception, not the rule). Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
No, no no no no....I'm saying Sela as a character would have made a more sensible nemesis than Shinzon....I'm not saying Denise as Sela was necessarily born for the role...just the character she was playing...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I guess so, but they blew their chance to make Sela more than an Romulan cardboard cut-out in Unification. Hell, a little agnst on her part would have gone a looooog way.
Shinzon would have been best used as someone that hates both the Federation and the Romulans equally. One single line to the Reman viceroy about them wiping out Romulus after the Earth would have been perfect. It would have explained him using only the Scimitar instead of the entire fleet too. That or have him slowly go insane as he degenerated. Eh...(shrug)...it's not Tom Hardy's fault: I thought he really did a great job. Certainly better than Montablan's over-dramatic "Kahn" performance at any rate. ....but that was the 80's and every villian was something out of a James Bond script.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Oh I agree...its just the fact that Khan was an nemesis we knew and who was appropriate for the role in the movie, he had a back history from the 1990s in "Space Seed" and an explainable chain of events that lead to his mistakened discovery and, again, from "Space Seed" it had already been previously why Khan hated Kirk.
Then we get Nemesis...and a villian, who frankly, came out of the blue. It would be understandable if there was a single episode during TNG that might shed some possibilities on how Shinzon came to be or simply that Shinzon existed, but he didnt. He existed solely for the purpose of the Nemesis, and despite Toms excellent acting, his character was just 'out of the loop' as far as making him a 'true' villian like ole Khan was. That is why Sela or someone whom we would know would hate the Federation/Picard, and why, would have made this movie the TWOK-calibur.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Oh I agree...its just the fact that Khan was an nemesis we knew and who was appropriate for the role in the movie, he had a back history from the 1990s in "Space Seed" and an explainable chain of events that lead to his mistakened discovery and, again, from "Space Seed" it had already been previously why Khan hated Kirk. l
Y'know, I wonder how many people here saw "Space Seed" before TWOK. I know I didn't, and I still enjoyed the movie,
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Yes. But the charactes also knew Khan. That at leasts adds some depth to the relation between the good guys and the bad guy.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: It seems that pon farr is not the result of the Vulcan denial of emotion, not by these quotes. It's a species-specific urge that's just made all the more inconvenient by the philosophy of logic. (And, incidentally, should then be present on Romulans and Mintakans as well.)
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
Hey Sol, where is that from?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
For one thing, Mintakans aren't Vulcans. They were called "Vulcanoid", which presumably meant they had pointy ears and green blood.
And hasn't it been stated on screen that the pon farr is a direct result of emotion-repression?
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
That I don't know. I was just reacting to Timo's statement.
Posted by Futurama Guy (Member # 968) on :
quote: That I don't know. I was just reacting to Timo's statement.
Oh, sorry, guess I overlooked that one....
quote: For one thing, Mintakans aren't Vulcans. They were called "Vulcanoid", which presumably meant they had pointy ears and green blood.
And hasn't it been stated on screen that the pon farr is a direct result of emotion-repression?
Actually the Mintakans were termed as "proto-Vulcan", not that that matters, I'm sure.
And no, it hasnt been stated that it is directly a result of emotion-repression. Just simply that is was some biologically inherent cycle driven by the motivation to mate, but never specifically why....unless the fact that it is just instinct alone that is its specific result.
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
I don't know...for some reason I seem to feel it's been very clearly established that the pon farr is the "price" Vulcans pay for keeping such a tight leah on their impulses---every seven years they lose control totally. However, the vast majority of episodes dealing with the cycle have cited physiological rather than psychological issues. So, again...I don't know...
As for the male/female issue...it seems to me that the whole thing operates with a biochemical component, a pheremone or some-such, that is produced by the male when he enters the cycle and then transfered to a female, triggering a response by her system. That's what the issue was in "Blood Fever" (VGR), even though it was a Klingon/Human female that received the transfer rather than a Vulcan. This would also explain how a microorganism could cause T'Pol to go into pon farr. And it would be a solution to the problem of how a species whose mating cycles occur at such intervals could still thrive.
Basically, the females don't enter it by themselves, they need it to be triggered by a "musting" male. (But it might also be triggered by an alien organism such as in "Bounty" [ENT].) I'm not sure, but there may be animal species on our own planet that operate this way...
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