Again i'm first to post.. how cool is that!? I just LOVED this episode. I think the writing was amazing.. and the suggestion that T'Pol and Archer can get together adds and amazing tension to the rest of the series...
Tho' again - they used a temporal phenomenon .. but hey... for pure entertainment value - i enjoyed it. It was intelligent and showed all our characters in different roles..
Again, however .. I'm pissed that Mayweather is killed early on.. and has no fuggin' role.. what's with that??
Comments?
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Mayweather is turning into an extra... if his name weren't in the credits, there'd be no distinction between him and the random helm officers the Enterprise-D had in the later fourth, sixth, and seventh seasons...
I think that Five Minute "Enterprise" got it just about right way back last year:
quote:Archer: Oh, by the way, Travis just got back. He says it was his faith in us not to underuse him that set him free. T'Pol: Ironic, isn't it? Archer: Mm. Bring him the next batch of scripts, will you? He'll need time to practice his line.
How prescient....
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
The real nifty bit that nobody's seemed to catch yet...
That Xindi soldier (who ended up getting Cromwelled in the throat) was obviously looking for Archer specifically and trying to kill him. Why, exactly? Could it be that the Xindi somehow knew that the timeline would get de-fux0red if Archer survived long enough to punch the reset button in a few years time? And consider for a moment that Braga's said that the Xindi have their own FutureGuy...
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Major Spoilage ahoy! Get them while I have serverspace. I originally posted these on StarShip Modeler.
That or he was about the only one left in the room.
Personally I love the Ceti Alpha V touch...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That's a very good point: the Xindi would'nt have gone looking in his quarters if they didint know he's be there. A captain is usually on the bridge during combat after all.
It was a hell of an episode.
Posted by MrNeutron (Member # 524) on :
I can tell the Enterprise writing staff watched Memento.
I hate reset button episodes. This was well done for one, granted, but it's still a cheat. And what WAS up with killing Mayweather right off the bat? Do they really hate him that much?
Seeing all the different human ships was cool, though. Seeing this "rag tag fugative fleet" made me humm the Galactica theme. Posted by Galen (Member # 72) on :
The only thing wrong with the human fleet was the Hazari ship.
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
In the big picture, Mayweather's blink-and-you-miss-it death was probably more of an insult than anything else. People barely even noticed he was there.
I believe the actor actually ASKED for a little extra time off for the first part of this season, so he could accomodate a couple guest appearances on other shows and his standup show. I've got a feeling that this has backfired somewhat, resulting in his basically being written out of the show since the premiere. While it seems pretty clear that the writers don't know what else to do with his character, it will remain to be seen whether or not they'll realize they can likely get along without him in the direction they're going now.
I like the character, and had been hoping for him to grow up a little during his time, but I doubt that he'll get more than the 2.5 episodes devoted to him in the last two years. If the show's going to cut someone, it'll be him - and it may leave the show without the token African-American character.
Mark
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
*drool*
Earth.
Ships.
I loves 'em. The one ship looks wonderfully Akyazi-esque. It's very nice to see these ships in more detail.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
If there's one problem I had with the ep, it's the lack of structure. They could have done a lot more with the whole no-short-term-memories thing without it turning into a complete Memento ripoff. But that need for the teaser, with Earth getting destroyed, just shows the limitations of TV storytelling. They have to grab you early on; never mind that having the cool bit at the beginning completely disrupts the flow of the story.
Posted by TheWoozle (Member # 929) on :
Anybody know the name of the arrowhead-shaped ship? Was it mentioned in the episode where it premered?
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Don't think so. All we ever knew was that one of them was the Intrepid commanded by Captain Ramirez.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
And the Intrepid has been IDed as the Akyazi-esque ship. Too bad alternate Reed (even though actually getting promoted to Captain) never got that fourth pip, changed his uniform and division color, or even command the Intrepid. She was nearly destroyed before he could board her, plus he was killed when the Enterprise's bridge was destroyed.
Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
Too bad Kennedy never re-won the Democratic nomination, got re-elected President, or even got to sleep with Audrey Hepburn, plus he was killed when a bullet went into his head really fast.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Zing!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
That's what Jackie said. ...oh wait, it was probably more like "AAAAAAAAA!!! Where's my husband's HEAD!?!" Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
I hope the TOS touches in this episode aren't an indication they are going to try to fit it into the normal timeline.
I was looking forward to 23rd and 24th century series in the new timeline. Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: I hope the TOS touches in this episode aren't an indication they are going to try to fit it into the normal timeline.
I was looking forward to 23rd and 24th century series in the new timeline.
You know... I thought Khan was a madman, and even regretably so was Sybok. But you Phoenix have taken the cake, icing... and the whole freakin` birthday party with that statement.
Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
unless there are sequential registries in the new timeline, i'd rather not have it...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
In the new timeline, registries are assigned based on the captain's birthdate.
So, for example, A ship comissioned with me as captain (Nebula class) would be NCC-741973.
That way the crew never forgets the captain's birthday.
Anyone with a birthdate past the ninth of the month never gets a command. Sorry.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
quote:Originally posted by J: You know... I thought Khan was a madman, and even regretably so was Sybok. But you Phoenix have taken the cake, icing... and the whole freakin` birthday party with that statement.
Why? They've defeated or made friends with all the interesting people in the normal timeline, and any future series would probably be boring.
But if they do a series in the new timeline, the political situation in the future would be radically different because of the influences of First Contact on the timeline, and the whole ethos of the Federation could be different.
And, frankly, any timeline without Wesley Crusher is fine by me.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Um....new life, new civilizations....remember?
Even including the territory Voyager passed through, the Dominion's space and everything shown so far, there's a LOT of unexplored space.
Posted by Phoenix (Member # 966) on :
Voyager especially demonstrated a distinct lack of any interesting features in the new species they invented. Most were just "funny nose people", "funny forehead people" or "funny ear people" who weren't interesting at all. The Romulans and Klingons were fascinating in early Star Trek, and they even managed to make the Romulans look boring in Nemesis.
Enterprise, on the other hand, has shown a new array of interesting species. I would be fascinated to see a 24th Century Federation where people like Denobulans are important members. Perhaps, impressed by the Federation's newfound power, the Romulans might decide to join it instead of fighting it. Just imagine what Romulan-inspired Starfleet ships would look like...
Anyway, this is all irrelevant, as they seem intent on squeezing Enterprise into the existing timeline and making a giant continuity mess. Posted by Kazeite (Member # 970) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: Enterprise, on the other hand, has shown a new array of interesting species.
Such as?...
We either had old races brought back for no particular reason (Nausicaans, Ferengi, Tellarites, Borg, etc), or new races which seems to perfectly fit your funny nose people", "funny forehead people" or "funny ear people" definition.
And truth be told, Archer has pissed off half of those races... Now they can make another two seasons about valiant crew of Enterprise undoing all the damage Archer has done...
quote:Anyway, this is all irrelevant, as they seem intent on squeezing Enterprise into the existing timeline and making a giant continuity mess.
With that I agree completely. It's not like they are going to succed with squeezing Enterprise into existing timeline, but this is already definetly a giant continuity mess.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
quote:Originally posted by Phoenix: Why? They've defeated or made friends with all the interesting people in the normal timeline, and any future series would probably be boring. But if they do a series in the new timeline, the political situation in the future would be radically different because of the influences of First Contact on the timeline, and the whole ethos of the Federation could be different.
While a series in a new timeline is interesting there are two problems:
1) Despite all the advantages, possibilities, and potential that a new timeline has over the old one, we still have an incredibly naive and lazy writting staff. They'd rather tread old lines than create something new and their ability to write a story is usually dependent upon creating a new species for one time use [Xindi and Suliban seem to be the only exceptions].
2) Trek that's not Trek isn't Trek. That's Enterprise's problem. If you go into a new timeline you create more unrest among the base. Look at the amazingly popular Battlestar Galatica, a TV show that has a following that is arguably as large as Star Trek but the show didn't last as long. Fast forward 2003 and the remake mini-series of Battlestar Galactica is receiving poor reviews from it's base fans because Galactica that isn't Galactica isn't Galactica. Trek is dependent upon the continuing vision of TOS, and though I hate to admit it I can give VOY a majority vote on that. ENT's entire feel on the other hand is different from TOS-VOY, and I feel it's because they've decided to totally rewrite the book thus the "based on Trek" and not "Star Trek created by." Important differences in thought there, the same ones that affect the Galactica mini-series, the Lost in Space movie, and SG the movie vs. SG-1 the series [though admitted on this last one, no one really cares about the differences].
However, return to the 24th century. If an imaginative crew came in and actually made something of Star Trek. A series in late 2380's maybe 90's [ten years or so after Voy] where there are two factions within both the Romulan and Cardassian cultures, one is with us and the other is with the Breen [the Breen and their Cardassian faction being upset about the war, and a group of Romulans joining them because they hate the Feds--- which creates an interesting dynamic itself]. Open fighting is completely unnecessary, it can be like the Klingons and Romulans were in TOS, with skirmishes here and there, the Breen side currently too afraid of open war with the Fed. The show can be about rebuilding the Cardassian society [that is the part allied to the Fed (the so presumed Fed and Klingon parts after the war would have rejoined-- post-WWII Germany)]. The differences between that part and the part that was Romulan controlled and was secured by the "evil" side of the Romulans during a late civil war [Nemesis killed off the highest portions of Romulan political structure, HELLO!]. You don't have to be in Cardassian space either [DS9 has kinda beat that one like a dead horse maybe], go into deep Romulan space instead. In either case you have to be afraid of inflitrators from the other side while you're busy trying to carry out your work.
You want new species & enemies? The Romulans and Cardassians had to know other species and make nwe enemies that were unknown on the Federation side of their borders. You'll be on the look out for war criminals in Cardassian space, who might as well be turned into crime lords or terrorists. There might be the same situation within Romulan space [could there be war criminals in Romulan space? Dunno, why not disinfranchised Intelligence officers?].
The original 24th century is just fine.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...they even managed to make the Romulans look boring in Nemesis."
What, for the five minutes or so that they were shown? That's like saying that TMP made the Klingons look boring.
Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
it did
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
What sucks is that Enterprise would be billions of times better if there Xindi were Romulans instead. Think about it...
1) the Romulans receive word from the future that "Earthers" are going to destroy Romulus or Remus [who cares which!].
2) Romulans send test doomsday weapon.
3) Romulans, Remans, and some new slave races are the bad guys.
4) Enterprise is sent to stop the Romulans.
5) The Expanse can be plugged into the Neutral Zone and part of it's creation [this comes way later].
In the end, the only problem is that no Human until the time of TOS knows what a Romulan looks like. But we don't need to ever see them, IMO and survive. We can have a few redshirts see them, then instantly die. Most of the ground combat can be taken care of by Remans or other slaves. And when Archer and co. would finally find the ultimate doomsday weapon it can be reconned that the Romulans had only one chance at building the doomsday weapon and when it was destroyed an all out war between Earth and Romulus started--- wow, much better than an impossibly fitted Xindi attack [don't you think the first and only attack on Earth would be basic knowledge and we would have heard about it during TNG or DS9? I can see an attack by the Romulans being overlooked, but not the Xindi's because there was no Earth-Xindi war].
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Well, we do still have that Temporal War going on. If some time-travelling faction in that war had NOT told the Xindi they would be attacked by Earth, there wouldn't have to be a war with the Xindi.
I also suspect the Expanse itself was created in the Temporal War. Those spheres were placed there around the year 150, possibly to keep people out (or the Xindi *in*) the Expanse.
So basically, what I'm saying is, there's always the possibility of some sort of reset button during the series. There is certainly enough room in the story to completely eradicate the Xindi attacks and the entire Expanse from continuity.
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
I could actually see a Xindi war go unmentioned by our 24th century heroes. For them, it would be yet another stain in the uniforms of all those savages who gave a bad rep to humanity before the UFP was founded. Heck, the Romulan war went almost unmentioned, too. Only when Kirk or Picard was up to his neck in a possible reenactment did he discuss the pertinent backstory.
The Great Florida-Venezuela Ditch Project should have been mentioned in several occasions, though. When Picard spoke of dastardly surprise attacks (Tomed in "TNZ"), when he spoke of bloody preambles to wars (Salem One, Pearl Harbor in "The Enemy"), when Sisko witnessed the Breen strike on SF HQ...
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
But the "Great Florida-Venezuela Ditch Project" became the basis for an intercontinetal underground transit system, so all well that ends well.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: So basically, what I'm saying is, there's always the possibility of some sort of reset button during the series. There is certainly enough room in the story to completely eradicate the Xindi attacks and the entire Expanse from continuity.
I HATE RESETS! For a perfect example:
Voyager's "Year of Hell" might be one of the best Star Trek episodes ever if it wasn't a reset. Obviously, Voyager wouldn't have been destroyed at the end... but if they had found a way to stretch out those two episodes into five or something... make a good run of how much damage the ship is taking, maybe the last two episodes can be about putting the ship together and finding everyone that was lost in lifepods.
Reset episodes are for lazy writers and producers who want to take their characters into situations without the consequences those situations bring. Star Trek has never had more than a two-part reset episode... if Enterprise turns out to be a reset season or reset series it will cease to be good TV like it has ceased to be good Trek from days long ago.
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
PS: If you recall, this is the reason that 7Days failed as a show. The actors got tired of their characters have no development and they walked. I don't know how dedicated to the art ENT's actors and actresses are, but I know I prefer good story telling period.
Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
quote:Originally posted by Timo: The Great Florida-Venezuela Ditch Project should have been mentioned in several occasions, though. When Picard spoke of dastardly surprise attacks (Tomed in "TNZ"), when he spoke of bloody preambles to wars (Salem One, Pearl Harbor in "The Enemy"), when Sisko witnessed the Breen strike on SF HQ...
of course he left out 9/11 too.. chances are the paralells are going to be like that.. no one equate 9/11 to Pearl Harbor because Pearl Harbor led us to a huge multi-year war action, 9/11 spawned a host of morally ambiguous policies and a short police action, very short in martial terms.. chances are no one will mention the Xindi War because no war comes of it.. NX-01 will make contact with the Xindi and save the day without involving Earth in a sustained conflict, making Florida just another wierd terrorist stain in history that no one knows what to equate with
Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
I don't follow (or agree) with the alternative timeline theory.
I don't see any mention of the Ceti Alpha 5 mention from ST:WOK. I thought it was a great tie-in (which of course does not affect ST"WOK since the reset.
And now we 'know' why Ceti Alpha 6 exploded. Temporal distortion waves from the Xindi detonating it in the alternative timeline (Narf!).
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Correct me if I'm wrong, but was there something in a Peter David novel about an Iconian gateway being responsible?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Peter David should have a muzzle bolted on him and his hands sawed off.
For starters.
Posted by Capped in Mic (Member # 709) on :
people who dont like Peter David Trek take Trek too seriously.. a lot of it is tongue in cheek
Posted by Timo (Member # 245) on :
Plus, PAD is the master of backpedaling. He could probably win Tour de France ass first. If confronted with canon evidence that the Ceti Alpha debacle was related to the Xindi, he'd immediately up and write a complex story of why and how M'Ress deliberately lied about the Iconian gateway thing.
Did 9/11 even take place in the (currently active version of) Trek universe? Not that we'd have seen the towers standing in 2269 or anything, but Trek history from the 1960s on is likely to be rather different from real Earth history, at least in its details.
Timo Saloniemi
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Well, when you stack up 9/11 with nuclear war from WWIII, I can see it not being mentioned. Besides, there'll be plenty of future horrors that Trek never brought up too....unfortunately.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Capped in Mic: people who dont like Peter David Trek take Trek too seriously.. a lot of it is tongue in cheek
Tongue in Cheek is having Dax's previous host bang McCoy. Having Santa Claus save the day is grounds for a kneecapping. How does that crap get by the editorial staff?
It's not that I care about NF so much but there is the chance he'll ask to do the DS9 books someday....
Posted by Mark Nguyen (Member # 469) on :
Peter David's ONLY good book that I've read is "Vendetta". Everything else, including New Frontier, is self-indulgent fanboyfic IMO.
Mind you, I think most Trek novels haven't managed to capture an inkling of the original show's spirit, be it TNG, DS9 or VOY. I haven't read any ENT novels.
Mark
Posted by J (Member # 608) on :
Well I don't know about 9/11, I'm doubting it personally. But we've got the Eugenics War during the 90's--- most likely it was isolated until after 96, thus that VOY episode. Around 2020 we have extreme poverty problems in the US at least, and the Bell Riots. Then sometime in 2050 you have WWIII, that nasty nuke war. 2061 is when we have First Contact with the Vulcans--- and it seems that it wasn't widespread knowledge that FC occured until sometime after 2080, even 2090, because of the post-atomic horror era. Things didn't become highly civilized until the beginning of the 22nd century it seems. We might as well cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Shit....no cool global paradise untill I'm middle-aged.
that sucks.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
*checks math*... *blinks*
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Oh... you'll find out....
I'll show you: show you all. Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: amazingly popular Battlestar Galatica
Sounds like you've done a pretty good job of finding an alternate reality already.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Welll...it was amazingly popular with Richard Hatch anyway. Posted by Cassio (Member # 795) on :
Okay, in all Trek, it's been a major drink if they ever blow up the hero ship. So how many drinks do we take when they blow up the entire EARTH? (Yeah, we've seen planets blow up in Trek before, just not Earth itself.)
B.J.
Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
Hmmmm...
Looks like Archer found the plans for the Galaxy Class in Daniel's files...
(I haven't seen the episode... so maybe this isn't what I think it is)
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